Hellfire? and fundamentalist, fear-based religious doctrines

[carrie]

I was discussing about Law of One to a certain personal Christian friend of mine, and he goes about saying how Jesus saves your soul and if you don't repent, you go to hellfire and that the bible is 100% true and nothing false. (then the conversation stops).

I'm trying to find phrases in Law of One about such a place called "Hell". Maybe it does not exist and just a figment of someone's imagination to scare people?

So sorry if it's such a negative topic. Just want some imput.

[Monica]

Hi Carrie!

No need to apologize! We've all dealt with the fear-based aspects of the mainstream religions, so this thread will undoubtedly be helpful to many of us.

I've had my share of encounters with well-meaning religious fundamentalists who told me I was destined for 'hell' just because I didn't believe as they did...just because I practiced yoga, wore crystal earrings, didn't accept the Bible as authoritative, didn't believe in the concept of needing a 'savior' for 'sins' etc.

These people have good intentions, for the most part. They have chosen a spiritual path, which is wonderful, but it's a path in which they must conform to a set of beliefs without question. Because of this 'control' factor, and the tendency to try to get recruits from fear-based tactics (both STS techniques), mainstream religions seem to be of mixed polarity, ie. have many STS elements along with the STO elements.

This too is catalyst, because it's an opportunity for the aspirant to learn discernment.

There is no mention of 'hell' in the Law of One (unless you consider getting stuck in 3D a hellish experience!). Q'uo has stated that 4D negative would be like a maximum-security prison to an STO entity, so that might be considered a 'hell' if an STO person went there. But we all know that an STO entity would never end up in a 4D negative environment, since it takes 91% STS polarity to go there. Certainly not because of a mere difference in beliefs!

To think that God would lose some 80% of the population to 'hell' is a bleak outlook on life indeed. I've often wondered how those who believe in this dismal and inherently elitist doctrine ("I'm saved you're not") manage to sleep at night, believing that their non-Christian friends and loved ones will be separated forever, lost to eternal torment. How do they stand it? Why don't they question it?

Here's what I say when people tell me the Bible is the 'infallible word of God' and that Jesus 'died for my sins':

I might say something like this:

Thank you so much for your concern! I have great reverence and respect for Master Jesus! And there is a lot of beauty in the Bible. I'm glad to hear that you have found spiritual inspiration from the Bible and from the life of Jesus!

My beliefs are different from yours. I cannot accept that God would be so cruel as to sentence about 80% of his children to be tortured forever in hell. I believe God is more loving than that! Did you know that the original Greek word that 'hell' is translated from actually means 'a place of correction'?

Sure, I agree that God has set in motion natural laws to ensure justice. Perhaps truly evil people do suffer for awhile...until they learn to love. But not forever! Would you continue to punish your child for years after he has learned his lesson? No? Then wouldn't God have more compassion than you, a mere human?

How could God send someone to a place of torment just because they chose to seek God in a different way? As an example, the gentle Buddhist who meditates daily, in an effort to commune with the Cosmos. Why would God be so petty as to punish this person forever, just for doing what he thought was right?

Did you know that there are lots of other 'holy scriptures' that also have beauty? Have you ever read the Bhagavad Gita? The Hindus consider it their Bible! And did you know that there are many 'lost' books of the Bible recently discovered?

I believe that God has spoken to all cultures, not just one. We are all God's children, and God would never play favorites with one particular group of people who believe a certain way. It's not about beliefs! It's about the love in your heart.

I appreciate your concern. But I'm cool with God!

[Cyclops]

Lets look first to what hell really is when seen from another perspective. from reading the various sessions I begin to connect that hell is brought upon entities by their own creation. You should never be afraid of such a distorted perception because it is brought upon the very entities who fear it most by their own creation and actions. I will start with this statement to summarize the fear of judgment first and then we can see the concept of hell through the sessions.

principle of Q’uo Special Meditation December 19, 2005

Energies such as your religious bodies and what this instrument calls the “religious right,” those entities who lean heavily upon dogma and whose teachings are based on fear and judgment, are the leaders of the pack in maintaining the lack of choice among entities who indeed have translated spirituality into a religiosity in which the concern is simply to belong to the appropriate pack and to be a part of that pack by following blindly any directives given by the leaders of that group.

Now we can focus on what may be understood as hell which is nothing but a self-created surrounding of fear. A potentiated false concept which is brought through destruction and the service to self oriented actions.
Sunday Meditation November 18, 1979

I am again with this instrument. I am Hatonn. May we greet the one known as S, and welcome him to our gathering. We will continue through this instrument. As we were saying, there are planets which have no more ability to extricate themselves from a condition of complete terror. They are so frightened that in their soul condition the souls cling to each other with such intensity that they consist of an impenetrable knot of fear, each feeling completely separated from the other and from the Creator. Your planet is not down that road, yet. There are many among your peoples who are very positive. There is no chance at this time that your planet would become one of these. Furthermore, among our ranks there are those whose task it is to release planetary entities such as these from their terror, so that they will let go of each other and be able to be led away to what you would call a hospital for spiritual rest, until they are able to once again take up the task that awaits us all; that of evolving into the original Thought from which we spring.

This is the closest to a hell that exists, to our knowledge, in any of your universes. We, however, are not perfect nor is our information complete. We simply have seen somewhat more than have you. But it is our understanding that the evolutionary process continues onward grade by grade, or octave by octave, and at the end of each grade those who are able proceed to the next. Those who are not able repeat that octave or existence until they have learned the lessons of that existence. Thus, the terms heaven and hell are quite subjective. And what is heaven to you would not seem so to us. And what is heaven to us would be incomprehensible, likewise, to you. For each of us have our own, shall we say, psychological makeup which has been developed through many eons of development in the spirit.

Also with one of the races which inhabit planet earth today for third density lessons destroyed their own planet through war which brought upon a tangle of fear. We begin to see a pattern of what the concept really is, a fabrication of ones own will through fear and destruction, through the negative path.
Session 10 of the Law of One January 27, 1981

Ra: I am Ra. The peoples of Maldek had a civilization somewhat similar to that of the societal complex known to you as Atlantis in that it gained much technological information and used it without care for the preservation of their sphere following to a majority extent the complex of thought, ideas, and actions which you may associate with your so-called negative polarity or the service to self. This was, however, for the most part, couched in a sincere belief/thought structure which seemed to the perception of the mind/body complexes of this sphere to be positive and of service to others. The devastation that wracked their biosphere and caused its disintegration resulted from what you call war.

The escalation went to the furthest extent of the technology this social complex had at its disposal in the space/time present of the then time. This time was approximately 705,000 of your years ago. The cycles had begun much, much earlier upon this sphere due to its relative ability to support the first-dimensional life forms at an earlier point in the space/time continuum of your solar system. These entities were so traumatized by this occurrence that they were in what you may call a social complex knot or tangle of fear. Some of your time passed. No one could reach them. No beings could aid them.

And specifically about the use of elitism when dealing with religion and condemning others due to a perceived absolute standard. Here's an excerpt that may shed on the nature of this action.
Session 87 of the Law of One May 12, 1982

The relationship of such an entity to fourth-density negative entities is one of the more powerful and the less powerful. The negative path posits slavery of the less powerful as a means of learning the desire to serve the self to the extent that the will is brought to bear. It is in this way that polarity is increased in the negative sense. Thus fourth-density entities are willing slaves of such a fifth-density entity, there being no doubt whatsoever of the relative power of each.

Questioner: A reflection of this could be seen in our density in many of those leaders who instigate war and have followers who support, in total conviction that the direction of conquest is correct. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. Any organization which demands obedience without question upon the basis of relative power is functioning according to the above described plan.

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Now to the other side, releasing the shallow and self-created and distorted concepts of hell we begin to see a deeper meaning of creation. The one where the infinite one sought to know itself, incapable of judgment.

principle of Q’uo Sunday Meditation February 11, 2007

What you are doing here is so important in terms of your extended work. You set here the benchmark of choice which you cannot do in fourth density, fifth density, or sixth density. We would not wish for any to be lost and indeed it is impossible for any to be lost. There is no hell deep enough to lose the love and the light of the infinite Creator. There is no prison whose bars can keep you from the love and the light of the infinite Creator.

Momentary difficulties loom large if the viewpoint is short. We see that all are cared for. Every consideration is given equally to those who are striding forth to seek the light in fourth density positive and, just as importantly, to those who have chosen to stay longer at these lessons and learn them better. These are also completely provided for in that they have all the room they need to make every choice with their own free will.

Oxal Sunday Meeting November 21, 1976

You are instilled with divinity. You are of the utmost importance. You are a portion and particle of the divine Creator. Without your existence the creation would be incomplete.

Hatonn Sunday Meditation March 8, 1981

The love that is the source of your very being surrounds you each moment of every day that you experience in your lives upon this tiny planet that you call Earth. The infinite Creator has set in motion the force of love to carry each of His creations on a journey, a journey of awakening, a journey of realizing the oneness of self with all that is, with love, with the Creator. This journey has many routes available. Each of you in your own free will, by your own choices, may choose how to make this journey.

Session 90 of the Law of One June 19, 1982

Ra: I am Ra. We came to your peoples to enunciate the Law of One. We wished to impress upon those who wished to learn of unity that in unity all paradoxes are resolved; all that is broken is healed; all that is forgotten is brought to light.

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This one to me summed it all up in a nicely expressed form.

Monday Meditation, Third Meeting
February 25, 1974
(Unknown channeling)
Philip of The Brotherhood of the Seven Rays.

Throughout your planet, my friends, there are many, many peoples of many, many races and each of them think many, many things. But you must see them and you must know them as one. For each of them is a part of the Father as a part of you. And all that is necessary for you to realize this is to open your eyes and see. For man on Earth has these eyes, but what he sees is, for the most part, something that he designed for himself to see. The Father, my friends, made the creation. We are the creation. We are the Father. We are all one. It is impossible to be anything else. No matter where you are, what you think or what you do, this fact remains: that you and all of your brothers and sisters throughout all of this infinite creation are one single, great, living Being. Not only brothers and sisters, but all of life; and all of the trees and flowers and rocks and all of the foliage and all of the planets and stars are part of that one great Being.

And yet, man on Earth attempts to separate and divide and subdivide. And this is not truth. And yet he does not realize for he is yet in a state of ignorance brought on by his own misdirected thinking. And yet truth is simplicity itself and yet he has complicated this truth to such an extent as to kill his fellow creatures in great profusion. And he has generated such hatred for his fellow creatures and in doing so has generated this hatred for himself. For to hate your fellow men, my friends, is to hate yourself. And in doing so, he has brought upon himself terrible, terrible grief. For what could be worse than inflicting pain and destruction upon oneself?

And this is what he does. There are millions and millions and millions of planets throughout the creation. And these are inhabited by millions and millions of people. People like yourself. And yet, they do not hate. They do not fear. They do not envy. They do not show greed. They do not judge. For how is it possible to do any of these things if there is only one being? For in doing any of these things it is nothing but a self-inflicted wound. I and my Father are one. These are true, these spoken words. I and my Father are one. And each of you, as all people throughout all of the creation, one. One. Know this and this alone and you will know enough. But know it, my friends. Do not think it. Do not speak it. Do not accept it. Know it. For when you know it, you will then know love.

[JoshC]

Hi carrie No need to apologize, everyone has to deal with this! The thought of the existence of a place called hell in the context of an omniscient, loving (not really though...) God was one of the things that drove me from orthodox/mainstream religion in the first place.

Monica! ... ! That's all I wanted to say but couldn't put in to words. Thank you

Excellent q'uotes (hattotes? :p) Cyclops, if I do say so myself. And I do! Do you happen to have the dates of them handy?

[Lavazza]

Wow, what a great collection of quotes, Cyclops, thank you. It all resonates so well.

Hell is an amazing concept, and very, very powerful in many peoples lives. Millions of people. I myself used to be really quite terrified of it when I was growing up. It kept me in line for the most part- well, for a while at least. When you pause to think about it- what better way could you possibly have to control people? It's my opinion that Hell is a construct of the church for that very purpose. It reeks of STS design in my view. "Love Jesus, or else..."

If anything like hell exists even remotely it is on Earth. We have all seen or heard of the horrors of the holocaust, or of starving people in small countries, or of warfare. We can create any kind of reality we wish to create. And yet, in contrast to the religious version of hell, nobody enters without knowing full well what they're in for. We write the rough draft of our lives before incarnation.

There is one other possibility I have read about from another channeled source. In this scenario one could descend in to a firey hellish place after death, but only in the circumstance where one believed in hell 100% during his or her lifetime, and before dying was convinced that that's where they were going. This would be an artifact of freewill, again. However once in "hell", as soon as that entity started feeling any discomfort and wished to be out of it, they would be out of it. And simultaneously they would realize that they create their own reality. The only ones who would not do this (if any) would be true masochists. But of course, since they would be enjoying where they were, it really couldn't be called hell. The above circumstance is, I suspect, so totally rare that I hesitated to even mention it.

[Ali Quadir]

A little history, The goddess Hell was a fierce competitor to the newcomer christianity in early Europe. Hell is a germanic word. It means bright shining or clear. And it's still in common use as a root for other words. We even have last names referring to it. Imagine a name like "John from Hell" this is a literal translation to English of a coworkers name...

Hell fire, originally Hell's fires... was the name used for the funeral rites, where the dead were cremated in fires.

So the Christian priests eager to increase their flocks and please Rome gave people the obvious choice: "Either burn in hells fire or go to heaven and live forever." At first it probably wasn't even antagonistic but a statement of perceived fact. Later on it became BS... A publicity stunt, used to keep the flock in line, mind control followers and stigmatize the opposition. The concept was linked back to their own versions of the land of the dead. Which were traditionally Hades Gehenna Tartarus or Sheol. Each of those has a history and mythology that is almost entirely but not completely unlike the hell we know today.

And that's how it goes. Big religions are essentially just like big corporations. They increase their customer base by spreading FUD about the oppositions products and evangelizing their own.

Oh... And hey guys... Good to see your noses again!

[Richard]

The roots of modern religion began in a time of fear. Where adherents of belief systems clung to each other in fear of their fellow man. From the time of Moses to now. The politics of fear have been a part of belief in the creator since man figured out how to imagine. Even in modern western countries where survival of your loved ones for their beliefs is, for the most part, not an issue. The congregations still cling to exclusionary belief systems that have developed into dogma. It’s an ancient survival mechanism that has become almost an unconscious decision to ignore the origins of the system. Even in modern times.

I just keep that in mind when talking to them. My brother is a Pastor in one of the new style churches. It makes for lively conversation. We are very close and good friends besides. But, he is quite certain I’m hellbound. I just say that hell is not one of my beliefs…at least not in the sense that he is thinking.

He disagrees, vehemently, with my thoughts as stated above. I guess no one likes to think that their motivations are anything less than a conscious choice. Doggone that karma though, lol.

Richard

[Lavazza]

HELLo Ali Quadir! Welcome back my friend.

Richard- Wow! Those must be colorful discussions indeed. I suppose it's a good opportunity for us to practice being humble and respectful towards others' belief systems, no matter how far off from the truth they may be. Also possibly a good opportunity to practice empathy, your brother must suffer a lot internally over the thought about you going to some firey afterlife. I remember when I was really young and still Christian, learning that my cousins were atheists and feeling so, so sad inside.

[Peregrinus]

My brother Ali... I thought you were going somewhere? What? Did you drive around the block? You weren't gone very long. Certainly didn't go to the Amazon huh? Anyway, it's good to have you back brother

What is hell? I think you are all wrong. I've been at my mothers house for one day and I have found hell. Actually, hell might be warmer. That would be nice.

[Monica]

OMG Ali you're back!!! Great to see you again!

[Lavazza]

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[transiten]

Hi there Ali

I already noticed you're back in the veggie vs meat thread. I have a neighbour whose name is Hell. She is one of the few persons i know very open to my ideas and even if we're not close friends we always talk when we meet and she has had some synchronicities she told me.

In old swedish there is an expression "Hell Dig", where "Dig" is "you". Swedish was heavily influenced by German some hundred years ago, and this was a way of greeting someone in a positive way.

"Hell Dig Ali"

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[Ali Quadir]

That's cool transiten, I am just not sure I get it right. Let me try.
Hell Dig Transiten would be "Hell you transiten"? But how should I see the Hell in front of that sentence?

In dutch some words I can think of are
"Helder" for clear as in clarity.
"Held" for hero.
"Hel" for bright as in a very bright light..

Incidentally popular culture uses "Held" to greet someone with respect. Hey hero, I need your help on something.

It's really weird and awesome how words often still betray their initial meanings centuries after they were abducted.

Doesn't stop there though The church in Europe had an interesting time. You can often find pagan symbols incorporated in their designs. Especially the older ones.

[transiten]

He he Ali

I was a bit inventive there. But "Hell" ín "Hell Dig" actually is of germanic origin with danish and islandic variations, but it is the german word word "Heil" which of course is not as popular today for known reasons. But all the same a positive greeting.

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[Monica]

Maybe it does not exist and just a figment of someone's imagination to scare people?

Carrie, here is something I found on another discussion forum that I thought really got down to the core issue of the 'hell' doctrine.

Why the doctrine of hell is illogical and morally corrupt:

1) It is based on the premise that the guilty can be pardoned by the death of an innocent - a notion embraced by many of the most barbaric religions of old.

2) It punishes without the possibility of reforming those being punished. It serves no purpose, other than to inflict torment.

3) It punishes intelligent enquiry (doubt) above all other offences.

4) It allows murderers, rapists, pedophiles and sadists into heaven, while excluding those of saintly character who happen to be unbelievers, potentially resulting in a heaven populated with criminals, and a hell populated with philanthropists.

5) Recent studies have shown that, on average, 97% of people never change from the religion into which they are born and raised. Most are conditioned from birth to distrust all other faiths and to hold fast to their own. Supposing the Bible is true, this means that a person born in Iran is almost guaranteed a place in hell. He will resist Christianity in the same way that a Christian would resist Islam. Heaven or Hell then becomes a lottery, largely dependent on ones place of birth. Is it conceivable that a wise and loving God could have devised a plan whereby the majority of humanity, due largely to factors beyond their control, must suffer forever?

The 'hell' doctrine is not very loving or compassionate. I think the Creator set in motion natural laws that are much more loving and compassionate than that. I suspect the doctrine came from religious and political leaders trying to control the masses thru fear.

[Brittany]

My whole concept of hell is ignorance. Being ignorant, being cut off from the realization that all is light and love, that there are no mistakes, no sins, nothing to really worry about at all, is hell. Because without that knowledge you suddenly need to judge people in order to feel good enough about yourself to get through the day.

My heart truly goes out to the people who simply refuse to wake up, who refuse to search, or, even worse, know there is more but are too scared to look into it. How they must suffer, even if perhaps they do not realize the extent of their suffering. I was one of them for many years, and it is such a relief to finally see the light. Gaining that knowledge was heaven for me.

[transiten]

Hello again Ali and All

Go to http://www.en.wikipeda.org/wiki/Mother_Hulda and

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=hell

for the etymologic origin of the word hell

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[fairyfarmgirl]

I once read a channeling of Sananda and the question of Hell arose. Sananda did not miss a beat, saying:

"Hell is the dump a place outside of the town where we used to burn clothes. At time it was the worst place they could think of... "

For some reason this has always stuck with me . I can not sit through a lecture of "you are going to Hell or See you in Hell or to Hell and Back... etc. Without snickering... LOL like someone who knows the punch line of the joke.

fairyfarmgirl

[Monica]

How can they truly love someone, knowing that even God has abandoned that person? How can they open up their hearts to their spouse if they believe their spouse is doomed to 'hell'? When they know they will have to be separated and actually forget the person? I asked that question on a Christian forum and they replied that, mercifully, God would wipe out their memories of their 'unsaved' loved ones. !!! Yikes! Is that self-serving or what? Just forget about your loved ones and save yourself...and you get saved based on what you believe, not the love in your heart. The doctrine of 'hell' is rooted in STS. It's a corruption of the Harvest.

I think most of them truly do mean well, and many agonize over their 'unsaved' loved ones. That's why they can be so pushy - they are terrified that their loved ones will be lost forever. Understanding how much fear they have can help to have compassion for them. For them, Christian Universalism might ease their minds and comfort their souls, and actually open their pain-filled hearts.

"Hell is the dump a place outside of the town where we used to burn clothes. At time it was the worst place they could think of... "

That's actually true. Universalist Christians will tell you that the original word 'hell' was translated from meant a dump outside the city.

Christian Universalism is gaining momentum, btw. There's a growing movement of Christians who are realizing how the doctrine of eternal damnation is merciless. They believe that, after death, the soul goes to a 'place of correction' and that Jesus died for everyone's sins, and whatever God wants, God gets. So if God wants everyone to be redeemed, then everyone is redeemed...it just might take awhile.

I think it's awesome to see this happening in the Christian community! It's much more love-and-compassion based.

http://www.christian-universalism.com/

I'd like to buy 100s of copies of their books and just hand them out.

http://www.christianuniversalist.org/

I have a friend who's a Christian Universalist and I was amazed at the depth of his love and wisdom. I thought he was an elderly bible scholar when I first met him online, but then found out he was only in his early 20s. He embodies the Law of One more than just about anyone I've ever met! He shared a great deal about his faith with me and I was very, very impressed! Just check out these websites...this is the Law of One in a Christian package!

Those whose faith is in the Bible might not ever want to read the Law of One books...they don't have to...they can find the Law of One in their own faith. I marvel at how we truly do live in a holographic UniVerse...where we can find that which mirrors our choice, while others can read the same books and interpret it in a totally opposite way.

[fairyfarmgirl]

HAHA I am a Unitarian Universalist! But I did not know this was part of the UU movememt... I just read it in a Sananda Channeling. That certainly does fit as it did sound like a UU type of thing to say... perhaps that is why I find it so very funny! So whenever anyone says Hell, I snicker (sometimes on the inside... not outwardly). Such a funny word, Hell! HELL, I am sure Glad I met you etc... I find it very funny! LOL

fairyfarmgirl

[Monica]

HAHA I am a Unitarian Universalist! But I did not know this was part of the UU movememt...

Well I don't think it's part of the UU movement. Christian Universalist is very different from UU - it's totally 100% Bible-based.

[Lavazza]

Christian Universalist is very different from UU - it's totally 100% Bible-based.

Hey Monica,

Just curious, how do CU's handle the parts of the bible that DO talk about hell, eternal damnation, etc? I ask because I had a friend at work who left to join a seminary. He was very, very bible based. It was the core of his spirituality and interpreted it literally. As such, no level of logic or philosophy that I attempted to impart upon him when we would talk shop (talk about religion basically) would make any imprint because regardless of what I would say, I would be 'proven wrong' by the bible. I presume CU's do not hole the bible as 100% literally true, even though they are 100% bible based?

[Ali Quadir]

Is there a way, a thought that would sabotage that "bible is 100%" correct idea? I always thought simply reading Leviticus would stop anyone from wanting to take it literally. It doesn't, they just selectively take it literally and still call it 100% truth..

Seriously, I've been offering camels and goats to any Christian who claims to take the bible literally... But I've never managed to buy myself their daughter as a slave that way. So that proves there is some common sense to work with. Right?

[Lavazza]

Is there a way, a thought that would sabotage that "bible is 100%" correct idea?

This is the very reason why they disallow bible invocation in professional atheist vs. God debates. The bible is considered to be 'The Truth' or 'The Source' of all divine wisdom among believers, they don't care if there are contradictions or failings. However, interestingly since it is a fear based religion, many if not most will stop short at acknowledging those problems and instead try to show how as humans we can't fully understand God's full meaning.

There was a lecture given by Alan Watts that I listened to a few months ago, where he speculated that nobody really, *really* believes in the [fear based religions, or the] bible. Because if people really truly believed that a place like Hell existed and that a God such as is painted by the church existed, people would be running mad in the streets with fear. God would be the biggest and worst tyrant of them all, casually brushing billions of souls off his sleeve in to the furnaces of hell for ever, and ever, and ever. Who was it that said if God existed, it would become necessary to get rid of him? The western religions paint a bleak portrait of God, and I'd have to say also, a childish and immature one. The highly religious (and I have to say, some political leaders also) like to paint reality in black or white. You're with us or against us. Your good or you're evil. It's either this, or that. But as we all know actual reality is both black, white and every shade in between, not to mention all the colors.

[Monica]

Hey Monica,

Just curious, how do CU's handle the parts of the bible that DO talk about hell, eternal damnation, etc? I ask because I had a friend at work who left to join a seminary. He was very, very bible based. It was the core of his spirituality and interpreted it literally. As such, no level of logic or philosophy that I attempted to impart upon him when we would talk shop (talk about religion basically) would make any imprint because regardless of what I would say, I would be 'proven wrong' by the bible. I presume CU's do not hole the bible as 100% literally true, even though they are 100% bible based?

I'm not sure if my CU friend is representative of all CU's but I will share with you what he told me.

He absolutely does believe the Bible is 100% true. However, he somehow manages to make sense of it in a deeper way than the fundamentalist Christians. The FC's read 'hell' and translate 'eternal damnation' but my CU friend reads 'hell' and goes back to the words it was translated from, thus getting a totally different meaning. Evidently there are several terms, one of them being hades, which means a dump outside the city. (If I remember correctly - I might have gotten the terms mixed up...but I know one of them meant a dump outside the city.)

I don't remember his exact explanation, but basically he said that 'hell' is a place of correction...a tempering of the sword in the lake of fire, for the purpose of purifying the soul. Thus, nonbelievers would not perish, but would be tempered, and ultimately be redeemed.

The important distinction between CU's and FC's is that the FC's believe nonbelievers will burn in 'hell' forever, with no chance of ever being redeemed, whereas the CU's believe that ALL will be redeemed eventually.

His explanation of this was citing scriptures stating that God's wish is for all to be redeemed, and whatever God wants, God gets. He said it was inconceivable that God could want all of his children in 'heaven' but lose so many. I commend him for his logic! He said that if Jesus died for all humans' sins, then that means all are saved, else his mission was a failure.

(For the record, I personally reject the entire notion of Jesus dying for anyone's 'sins' but I'm just sharing what they believe, as I understand it.)

When I asked my friend about the atrocities supposedly not only ordained but commanded by 'God' in the old testament, he admitted that the authors of the Bible recorded those events as they viewed them with human eyes - ie., distorted. I appreciated his honesty and determination to believe that God is loving, despite his own Book illustrating a savage, wrathful tyrant. It has been said, "You can tell a lot about a person by the image of God they project" and my friend projects an image of a loving God who welcomes ALL his creation eventually, rather than believing an elitist "I'm saved you're not" doctrine.

I have some of his discourses saved in emails which I would be happy to share with anyone who is interested - just pm me. This guy is absolutely brilliant! I saw him go head-to-head with pastors and he never wavered in his ability to totally outclass them with his deep Bible knowledge. I marveled at his ability to find the love in the present moment, even when the 'present moment' was a book that I find to be mixed polarity at best.

In other words, I am speculating that these CU's chose the STO path, not because of, but despite the STS messages in the Bible. And by doing so, they were able to holographically transform the Bible into a book of Love. They were able to make sense of what I consider the STS messages, in the context of a greater STO message.

For example, I have issues with the old testament. Knowing that the books of the Bible were written by men, and some may have been channeled, I don't consider the Bible to be any more 'from God' than any other books written by anyone else. Thus, having shed the stricture of being forced to believe it as an authority, I have no problem rejecting the parts that don't resonate. For me, that is most of the old testament.

I first realized this some 25+ years ago, when I was reading about how the being they thought was 'God' supposedly told them to slaughter all the neighboring tribes, and leave no survivors, not even children! I found this despicable! Think about it. If someone did that today, we would consider him an evil tyrant! (Someone has done it - Hitler - and he is considered by most people to be one of the most evil humans to ever walk the Earth.)

Then, if you read Leviticus and Deuteronomy, you will see explicit instructions for blood sacrifice, utilizing magickal practices, stones, etc. If we were to read this, not knowing it was supposedly 'from God' what would we think of it? We'd think it was a manual on black magick rituals!

If you were to point out these things to FC's they don't have an answer other than to say, "We cannot understand the mysteries of God." Or, at best, they might say, "Those children had to be slaughtered because their parents were so evil" to which I would say, "Then would you kill a child today because his father was a murderer or rapist?" which totally blows their minds. They have no answer because there is no answer. They then fall back on the "God had his reasons and it's not our place to question God."

But I did question it. I questioned whether it was actually God. This was 25+ years ago, when I first realized that the Bible was just a book written by humans, in their effort to understand God, just as other books have been written by other people in other cultures, in their own attempts to understand God.

Now, if the person seems receptive, I might bring up some of these points. If you just blast people with this stuff, it usually does a number on their head and they can't handle it. Occasionally, though, I come across someone who thanks me for voicing what they had already been thinking...for giving expression to the secret doubts they'd been harboring for years.

The Bible has so many contradictions that they really have to go to great lengths to make sense of it, as far as establishing a set doctrine. It would be a lot easier if they didn't try to make a religion but just focused on the STO parts, the teachings of Jesus! But in order to create a doctrine that followers are required to believe, they had to pick and choose, focusing on certain passages while brushing away others, with the end result being an elaborate 'sin' based concoction just to explain the atrocities in the old testament.

The CU's also have their elaborate doctrine, but it's much more reasonable, compassionate, and loving, imho. This just shows how we can each interpret the same words in different ways, to accommodate our choice to polarize STO or STS, or remain firmly rooted on the fence.

---

Is there a way, a thought that would sabotage that "bible is 100%" correct idea? I always thought simply reading Leviticus would stop anyone from wanting to take it literally. It doesn't, they just selectively take it literally and still call it 100% truth..

I've tried. It's like trying to break thru concrete, usually. It's amazing just how deep the programming is. It goes back generations. Questioning the Bible is very taboo. I've seen looks of terror when the question is even raised.

I don't think we have the right to freak people out like that...unless they are using their beliefs to impose on others...which they do...a lot. In those cases, raising some questions can maybe break thru the deep-rooted STS fear programming.

Seriously, I've been offering camels and goats to any Christian who claims to take the bible literally... But I've never managed to buy myself their daughter as a slave that way. So that proves there is some common sense to work with. Right?

HAHA! Let's be glad most of them don't take the old testament literally! But it's amazing how they don't see the contradictions.

[Ali Quadir]

Is there a way, a thought that would sabotage that "bible is 100%" correct idea?

This is the very reason why they disallow bible invocation in professional atheist vs. God debates. The bible is considered to be 'The Truth' or 'The Source' of all divine wisdom among believers, they don't care if there are contradictions or failings. However, interestingly since it is a fear based religion, many if not most will stop short at acknowledging those problems and instead try to show how as humans we can't fully understand God's full meaning.

As if the dude would write us a letter and be incapable to make it something we can understand.

There was a lecture given by Alan Watts that I listened to a few months ago, where he speculated that nobody really, *really* believes in the [fear based religions, or the] bible. Because if people really truly believed that a place like Hell existed and that a God such as is painted by the church existed, people would be running mad in the streets with fear. God would be the biggest and worst tyrant of them all, casually brushing billions of souls off his sleeve in to the furnaces of hell for ever, and ever, and ever. Who was it that said if God existed, it would become necessary to get rid of him? The western religions paint a bleak portrait of God, and I'd have to say also, a childish and immature one. The highly religious (and I have to say, some political leaders also) like to paint reality in black or white. You're with us or against us. Your good or you're evil. It's either this, or that. But as we all know actual reality is both black, white and every shade in between, not to mention all the colors.

I agree brother...

Most of those who are opposed to religion or the notion of God are not so much opposed to religion or the notion of God but simply to the suffering caused by dogmatic application of irrelevant rules. Unfortunately they do not see the difference between the majority of the peacefully religious who would not impose those rules and the few who would.

[Monica]

As if the dude would write us a letter and be incapable to make it something we can understand.

I often say something like, "Rather than limit myself to a single book, written by humans thousands of years ago, I prefer to marvel at the wisdom found in numerous books and traditions from all over the world. I just don't believe that the Creator of this vast and magnificent UniVerse would have entrusted all knowledge to a single primitive tribe and expect everyone in the world to be smart enough to figure out that this book contains all the secrets to eternity, when there are so many other sources of knowledge that make more sense."

They then say, "God is so powerful he made sure that the Bible got recorded, passed down, and translated properly."

Which is basically saying that God's infinite power is being expressed in his ability to make something confusing, but we're supposed to trust it's from God anyway, no matter how confusing and nonsensical it is.

(For the record, I acknowledge that there is much beauty and STO teaching in the Bible, in particular the teachings of Jesus. It's the rigid belief that every word in the Bible is the 'word of God' while other lost books and scriptures from other traditions are 'satanic' that I have an issue with.)

I think the real value in the Bible is one of discernment: To realize that we needn't believe some authority (believe in the Bible as authoritative just because we were taught to), and to be able to discern which parts of the Bible are STO and which are STS.

[fairyfarmgirl]

Pardon my error. I did not know that there was such a Christian Sect. I will have to dust off my sect following skills and get with the times... LOL

I wish you all well!

I only use one page in the bible and that is the page that Psalm 93 is on. It is a GREAT Invocation for Angelic and Beneficial Being Intervention during the time of dire circumstances. Oh and there is one more page... Psalm 150 for Celebration after the STS Being has been sent on its way back to its world...

fairyfarmgirl

[wanderer4d]

My daughter & I spent the afternoon with my mom today. As we were leaving she reminded my that next Sunday is Easter and that we shouldn't forget what that's all about. I told her I still remember. Then I said that we do have different beliefs but that we are not that far apart. For I see my mother ,and my father who died 2 years ago, as being STO, even though it's through the lens of what I see as a fear based religious belief. THEN she says "I just want to be sure I see all my children in heaven." or something very close to that. And as I said something to the effect of "Me too mom." (I never can remember what I really have said when I try to remember these convos) I was thinking to myself "Boy mom are you in for a big surprise!" Or something like that.
I love my mom....
These kinds of moments with her used to be a lot harder. Like the time she told me "Anytime a child off mine goes against the will of God it stomps on my heart." That was years ago and in response to me telling her I might have a son. Out of wedlock. Never seemed to be concerned about the kid. I think for her the line between the "Will of God" and social judgment gets a little blurry.

[Ali Quadir]

I often say something like, "Rather than limit myself to a single book, written by humans thousands of years ago, I prefer to marvel at the wisdom found in numerous books and traditions from all over the world. I just don't believe that the Creator of this vast and magnificent UniVerse would have entrusted all knowledge to a single primitive tribe and expect everyone in the world to be smart enough to figure out that this book contains all the secrets to eternity, when there are so many other sources of knowledge that make more sense."

Agreed... In other words one could say: "The world is my bible".

In sufism there's the "Spirit of guidance" (it's the part of God that writes bibles and fortune cookies) basically all guidance comes from there. And it does not restrict itself to a voice or a book.

They then say, "God is so powerful he made sure that the Bible got recorded, passed down, and translated properly."

Which is factually untrue if we check old bibles versus new bibles. But hey. I'm sorry... I am frustrated myself too.. In american vocabulary, I was raised a bible belter... In my tongue.. I wore the black socks and ate the mints.

Which is basically saying that God's infinite power is being expressed in his ability to make something confusing, but we're supposed to trust it's from God anyway, no matter how confusing and nonsensical it is.

Precisely. We've got it all figured out, lets go stand on the market place and convince everyone else

(For the record, I acknowledge that there is much beauty and STO teaching in the Bible, in particular the teachings of Jesus. It's the rigid belief that every word in the Bible is the 'word of God' while other lost books and scriptures from other traditions are 'satanic' that I have an issue with.)

You don't even have to state this. I think we all know.