Lying

[JoshC]

I've been contemplating my spiritual growth quite a bit as of late, actually I suppose more than usual, but anyways I was thinking in the shower it might be a good idea to work on lying less. I find the shower and bath great places to kick it and think because of the isolation, and I can smoke up before I go (yes it's relevant!). The use of entheogens in my spiritual growth seems like a decent thing for me to do, and I believe they help provide the atmosphere for me where I can really delve into myself.

Anyways, back to the shower. So I was thinking that if I were to stop lying to my friends (and it's really more white lies than ... non-white lies? dunno :p with them), they wouldn't mind so much. If I were to stop lying to my parents, I'm inclined to think all hell would break loose. They are fundamentalist Christians and I'm a free spirited hooligan! Nah, but really, drugs and things outside of social & their religious norms are near blasphemy to them. So when I come home and get asked, for instance, "what did you guys do?," I might say we chilled and watched a movie rather than we smoked, drank, and watched a movie. The truth is still in there, but buried under deceit.

So if I were to try my best to stop lying altogether, a, for want of better word, s***storm would break loose. I don't particularly care so much about the backlash that I would get from them, but I worry about the spiritual and emotional trouble it would put them through. In the past I've broken both of my parents hearts from stuff like this, and have seen them go through it. I don't reeeaaaallly want to do it again, so...

I know everyone here has some experience with lying, and that we're all trying not to as much! So what is your experience with how you dance around the truth, or do you at all? What do you guys do to alleviate pain like I'm trying to do, all the while trying to polarize to STO, or in this case not depolarize too much if at all? Thoughts comments, and random things that have nothing to do with anything are all welcome Really anything about lying is on-topic here.

P.S. I've thought that I may be the thing to provide them catalyst to polarize/grow, but it seems so cruel to hurt them when I can voluntarily save them from the pain.

Love and Light

[Monica]

Oh wow. That's a tough one! I'm not sure what the best course of action would be. Maybe in some cases it might be better to come clean, while in others it might be better to continue the white lies. I know some would say that it's always better to be totally honest, and, ideally, that might be true, but unfortunately when people are so locked up in their thinking, hearing something they consider 'radical' often causes them pain. Do we protect them from the pain by being dishonest, or do we contribute to their catalyst by being honest? I wish I knew the answer to that. I don't. All I can suggest is that you ask for guidance in each individual situation. Your guidance might be different from one time to the next.

When I was about 17, my mom was terrified that I might start smoking pot and begged me to tell her if I ever did. We weren't close at all. I lived in an abusive household. (Well my mom wasn't the abuser but neither did she show any love, only because she wasn't capable of it.) So it's not like I ever confided in her about anything else! She got my sister to tell me about the birds and the bees, so it was rather absurd that she would expect me to confide in her about my party life!

But, she kept insisting, so, finally, I relented and told her that I'd been getting high for over 2 years. It wasn't a big deal to me, and I figured if it was that big a deal to her, I might as well accommodate her wishes!

Well, she totally flipped out! She was devastated! She cried for days. You'd think I'd just admitted to being a mass murderer or something!!

The sad thing is that she went to her grave believing I'd done something horrible. Despite my best efforts to explain the relative benignness (is that a word?) of pot, she just never got it. I was a druggie, as far as she was concerned!

So, later, after I'd been married for several years and she had the audacity to ask me if I engaged in xyz sexual practices, I told her it was none of her business.

And it wasn't.

I really don't think I owed her an explanation of what I did at parties when I was 17, any more than I owed her an explanation of what I did in the bedroom at 25. Those were all details of my private life that didn't concern her.

The fact that she thought it concerned her, did not obligate me to confide in her. I realized, after her inability to handle the knowledge of a teenager in the 70s acting like, well, like a teenager in the 70s, indicated to me that her main objective wasn't getting close to me, as it was in looking for something to judge me with.

This was my experience with my mom, who might have been totally different than your parents. Your parents might have entirely different motivations for wanting to know more details about your life. I'm just sharing what happened to me, and it might not apply in your case! So just discard if it doesn't resonate!

Do your parents seem genuinely interested in your life? When they ask how the evening went, do they seem like they really want to know, or is it like when strangers say, "How are you?" and you know they don't really want to know? (We've all experienced a stranger saying "How are you?" and we say, "really awful" and they smile and nod and say, "That's nice.")

Another factor to consider is timing. Maybe you could be honest with them at some point, but not necessarily now. Sort of like a delayed honesty...? Right now they still consider you their responsibility. They still have the power to curtail your social activities, right? And you seem pretty certain that they wouldn't understand. You might want to weigh out the pros and cons both ways, and decide if it's really going to serve them by opening up something you know will cause a lot of discord. Maybe you could make a mental note to tell them after you have moved out, have a steady job, and have shown them that you are a responsible adult. Then, their learning of your previous partying might just seem like the follies of youth, and they might just take it in stride. Hearing an adult recount what they did in their youth is vastly different from a youth confessing to current 'indiscretions.'

Whatever you decide, I hope everything works out for the good of all!

[Monica]

Another factor to consider is whether any good will be served by them knowing all the details of your private life. (Notice I said your private life.)

Two of my son's friends come to mind, both of whom have fundamentalist parents. One of them got disowned and kicked out of the house for being gay. The other ended up totally cutting herself off from her parents after they punished her severely for smoking pot.

I have no way of knowing whether any good came out of either of these cases.

[Ali Quadir]

You can only not lie around people who don't lie themselves and are able to accept you fully. That effectively excludes the rest of the population. With the exception of a very few.

It's a noble goal, but it's not possible to achieve without hurting the ones you attempt to serve, and yourself.

Take the hemp. If you reveal it they will put you in jail. Are you doing anything wrong with it? No but people still believe that BS to a degree where they will punish you to be able to retain their own beliefs. You are not free from their dogma. And people will act unfair.

You'll get this in a thousand different forms if you decide to be completely open, and completely without lies from now on.

Be open and without lies towards yourself first! That's what really makes the big difference about honesty. And it's hard enough as it is. Then as a matter of principle give people the information they need to make their decisions. If I know something about me that is relevant to another person I show it. If it's not relevant they often don't get to see it.

I am a Muslim with western European genes, how many of my colleagues do you think would be able to deal with this? How many would change their behavior towards me dictated by their own distortions without even knowing the slightest thing about what it means to me?

Being without lies in this world is like being in a kindergarten and expecting that a mature attitude is going to make all the other kids treat you in a mature way. That doesn't happen. In fact unless you collect an amount of immaturity in you you're much more likely to be the one that ends up being bullied.

I think what we need to do is stop lying on the inside. And have a kind of interface/barrier with the rest of the world. The purpose of this barrier is to get the people to treat us as close to the real us as possible. Which means you may have to express yourself in a specific way to offset their distortions.

And that's awfully close to what we call lying. But letting their distortions dictate the interaction does not support truthfulness either. It only causes disharmony and suffering.

[Cyclops]

Masking yourself, expressing veiled concepts, concepts in hidden ways or telling white lies may not be lies at all because you are approaching service with care to beings who are unawakened. I can't quiet put my hand on the sessions which I'm searching for but there was this one where it stated that the positive polarity entity will always have to be preoccupied with considerations and much careful planning about to the entities who call it to serve and how to best achieve the service.

One on the radiant path must be careful not to confuse others when it is offering information.
Hatonn Thursday Meditation January 10, 1974

We of the Confederation of the Planets in the Service of the Infinite Creator are about to embark upon a most interesting phase of our mission. It will be interesting for us, and it will also be interesting for you. If you are to be of service in the program we are now instituting, it will be necessary that you—very, very carefully—control what you say to those who seek from you, and it will also be necessary that you are very careful about the way that you act. In this way, you can be of maximum service.

Hatonn Sunday Meditation November 8, 1981

In your illusion example is a most persuasive teaching tool, for many times words cannot reach others and will often confuse, for all are on different levels within the illusion. Each has their own awareness and margin for misunderstanding is often great and many of the basic emotions that you feel in this illusion often block the spoken word by making one feel that they are being, as you in this illusion might say, talked with down to or condemned as we see is often the case, many who seek to preach and evangelize their particular awareness of the Creator.

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Here's a session on communication of truth, the concepts of communication between entities of certain levels of understandings and such.
Q'uo Sunday Meditation March 26, 1995

Group question: How to communicate honestly and be true to the self when people you talk to are restricted in their point of view? How does Q’uo do this with us, for example? What about white lies? The absolute truth may hurt feelings.

When one attempts to communicate the truth one can be sure that if the matter has substance the full truth shall not be revealed. The arbitrary and contrary nature of this intangible called truth is such that while one may asymptotically approach truth from many angles, one cannot arrive at it in time and space. Consequently, all efforts that we are aware of to define, capture or communicate pure truth are attempts which this instrument would call quixotic, errands of the soul doomed to a noble and worthwhile attempt and failure. It is against this backdrop that the seeker comes to grapple with the issue of communicating truth to others.

The one known as Jesus the Christ, whose life this instrument is fairly familiar with from her practice of the Christian religion, tended to work with truth not by speaking plainly, but, rather, by offering little stories which had some of the characteristics of a riddle or puzzle, and which certainly were those parables which contain self-contradictory notions. One might infer, then, that this compassionate entity wished to speak a more accurate truth than could be achieved by the use of plain words. This entity, one might infer, considered the feeling behind a parable or story as the carrier of truer communication than the specific words themselves.

This was, may we say with confidence, a successful effort at communication of spiritual principles to large numbers of seekers. Was it successful at communicating due to the power of the speaker, or due to the cleverness of the parables? The effort was successful because of both of these ingredients and because of the relationship between the one known as Jesus and the material which it was presenting. The one known as Jesus felt proprietary and generous with the principles themselves. This was an entity which did indeed know itself and was able within its own mind and heart to speak accurately concerning itself, who it considered itself to be, what it considered its mission and so forth.

When an entity is comfortable with the basic questions of who she is, what she basically believes in, and where she considers her mission to be leading her, then such a person comes to the task of communication with a feeling of self-confidence. This underlying feeling is that which is to be prized and that for which it is well to work, for pure truth lies always in the area between any two entities rather than in the one or in the other. Even if they agree, yet, still, the truth itself cannot be captured.

So what entities are doing when they attempt to speak the truth to each other is relating themselves to the other through the area of concern or question. The actual truth these entities communicate is in part the truth of themselves and only in part the truth about which the words are speaking. This is how central a part personality and relationship play in the business of seeking to speak truth. Before the mouth opens on the first effort to speak, a significant portion of that which is to come has been either ratified or nullified by the being of the person communicating. Thus, that member of your group which suggested the wisdom of communication by listening is to be commended. This is, indeed, a powerful resource for communication and one, indeed, whose practice has never been enough praised and cherished by your peoples.

The words which your peoples use produce seeming clarity of meaning many times. However, each entity is aware of the slippery and often false nature which words seem to take on as they are asked to bear the weight of substantial thoughts. The great majority of entities upon your sphere have not the patience nor the personality nor the inherent gift of precise or accurate language and this is in part due to the nature of spoken language. The great efforts of your scholars, humanists and authors of every type have produced works within your cultures which continue to communicate what seems to be a deeply insightful or truth-filled body of work. The written language is as that which can be pinned down, placed upon a shelf, and referred to again and again. Spoken words have not that luxury. There is no referring back within the usual conversation.

Since the language was created by those who needed to deal with each other as a society, language is most free of confusion when dealing with those day-to-day transactions of people to people. The choice of what to eat given to the waitress is clear. Conversations concerning a specific topic which must be dealt with are usually quite clear. As long as the sensitive, emotional and spiritual nature of entities communicating is not stirred and awakened language is strong enough to bear the truth at that level. Plans can be made. Journeys can be conducted. Errands can be run. A schedule can be kept. This is what the language was developed to accomplish, and this it accomplishes.

However, as entities awaken and begin to hunger for that home which is felt to be somewhere that is not here, as these entities awaken, stirring and rousing and stretching themselves, they begin to hunger for something that is not the bread and butter of life, something that is not practical, but something that seems all the sweeter for being impractical, and that is the deeper truth, the wider perspective, the ground of being.

As this concern or galaxy of concerns matures and ripens within the seeker’s mind and heart the inner landscape becomes ever more lucid and full of clarity, and as the seeker makes one mistake upon another and continues undiscouraged, layers of confusion seem to fall away within the seeker and that which is true is dimly sensed. Yet, in that dimmest sensing lies a great faith and a heightened awareness of the reality of the concept of truth. And so each as he matures spiritually and emotionally becomes more and more that which contains truth, that which holds precious gems within the earthen vessel which is the physical life. There is something about this process which makes those who would be strangers intimates upon meeting for the first time, as those who have begun to inhabit the truth, shall we say, find themselves recognizing fellow travelers whatever their background, whatever their diversity of story.

And so it is that the truest communication within the illusion which you now enjoy tends to be that shared between two seekers who recognize each other as comrades along the path, and who then are able to listen and respond with a light and free heart, not asking words to bear much but allowing words to wash over and touch upon that which is the felt and present truth. The greatest confusion lies not between two who are awakened and not between two who sleep and enjoy the illusion together in happy ignorance of its illusory quality, but rather the communication that takes place betwixt one who has awakened and one who still sleeps, and in that sleeping dreams the life.

We consider that we speak with those who are awakened. We feel that our communication with you is privileged and we assume that those listening to us take our words more as the flavor of that which we are attempting to express rather than the literal, absolute truth. We feel comfortable in fumbling for words in offering images to the channel that the channel must interpret for itself. We do not concern ourselves beyond a certain point with trying to find the right word or the right way of expressing a point. We leave that to the channel. We leave that—we should say more accurately—to the process by which the channel communicates that which has been communicated to it. We consider these communications privileged. We do not go into the marketplace, the business, the school, the church. We do not seek people to talk to. We await those who wish to communicate with us. This is our solution to the question of how to offer our truth in service to your peoples. We do not wish to change people. We wish to be there as a resource for those who are undergoing change already, and who, therefore, are seeking tools, resources and friends that may help them in their hunger and thirst after truth.

Now, when one attempts to communicate to one who is not yet awake to the spiritual journey or who feels that it already knows all that it needs to know, there are bound to be frictions and miscommunications by the score, for in this instance, no matter how pleasant the tone or how gentle the way in which points are made there is the situation where one entity seeks to improve or aid in another entity’s awakening. Now, this is the prerogative of all with free will, that they have perfect right and reason to speak persuasively in the attempt to seek truth and to share it. Yet, in terms of the truth itself there is a null contract situation when the two entities do not actually have a mutual desire.

In the situation where one entity is aware of a larger viewpoint than the other, if the other has not requested communication on that point, then there will be the inevitable friction which comes from the attempt to persuade. No matter how sugar-coated this attempt is it will still be interpreted in a frictive way by the one to whom the gift of understanding is being so hopefully offered. The way to clear and pure communication, then, is the way of expressing that which one is asked concerning.

Now, if an entity sees that there shall be the inevitable friction and still desires to get the point across perhaps the best ally is the light touch. If such communication can be made in a humorous or light-hearted way which charms and disarms the hearer then the inroads might be made with the listener all unaware of the gift of larger truth it has received. So when there is the opportunity to share a truth with one who is perhaps unwilling it is well to be playful and perhaps a little silly within creativity so that ways may be found that charm and delight and then leave the taste behind of that thought which may be revisited and thought upon.

The greatest single communication which an entity ever makes is the look, the stature, the beingness, the way the seeker is. The way that expresses through the body, through the eyes, through the hands, through the expressions. Your bodies, your beings, these that you dress and wash and feed and tend, these are your wisdoms. Your inherent vibratory expression communicates more deeply, more searchingly than you shall ever know, than you shall ever be aware of, for the truth, as it becomes purer, is that which we are. And that is far beyond words.

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There was another session which I couldn't find where one who had awakened wanted to share the truth with everyone he knew freely but all of those he knew rejected him and did not understand, each entity is unique and has it's own path of evolution to follow. The veil was described as extremely thick on earth, allowing a greater extension of free will to be experienced and expressed. And as expressed in the above excerpt in order to efficiency convey truth there must be a desire to receive it or at least consider it, a common ground. The best example of this is if you go to the L/L Research library at the oldest channeled sessions you will notice extremely hidden and small offerings which are much confusing, as the years go on and the consciousness expanded the more advanced concepts started to be offered. This is the consideration radiant beings are faced with when attempting to offer service and communication. Receptivity and desire are key because one cannot build on unstable and sandy surfaces.

[Namaste]

I tend to answer in a way that can both uplift the other Self and point them towards an idea, or a new perspective, which can hopefully open their mind to another conclusion or pathway. Since we're vibrating at an entirely different level, our thoughts and truth will not resonate with the other, and is more likely to invoke anger.

Helping to put them in a positive mood is a far better contribution (energetically) to the planet right now.

I had been concerned that this 'hiding of my core truths' was being dishonest to my Self, but the quotes above have set that now unnecessary fear aside.

Thank you Cyclops for sharing this insight.

[thefool]

I find it really hard to lie. I have gone to great lengths to say things truthfully. I have gone to great lengths to keep my word. Truth to me is the highest value along with Love and beauty. I find that if I am not honest with others then I am not honest with myself and then it starts a slippery slope. I like the solid foundation of truth. I have found that people might get hurt with the truth but they will get over it sooner or later. And they will thank you for being honest with them. Fo ex: do you lie to a dying cancer patient who has few days to live about their true condition? You may make them feel better for some time by lying. But truth will set them free. They may feel bad in the beginning but once they know the truth they may start to live their according to the new facts of life and will thank you not lying.

Truth for me is about saying, thinking and doing the same thing. I have practiced it and now it is just natural to me. That is my truth, it may not be someone else's truth but it is what it is. I find a great sanity in living this way. But of course if we know people are not going to accept our truth then we have the choice of remaining quiet. We don't have to yell it from the roof top...

[Namaste]

I find it really hard to lie. I have gone to great lengths to say things truthfully. I have gone to great lengths to keep my word. Truth to me is the highest value along with Love and beauty. I find that if I am not honest with others then I am not honest with myself and then it starts a slippery slope. I like the solid foundation of truth. I have found that people might get hurt with the truth but they will get over it sooner or later. And they will thank you for being honest with them. Fo ex: do you lie to a dying cancer patient who has few days to live about their true condition? You may make them feel better for some time by lying. But truth will set them free. They may feel bad in the beginning but once they know the truth they may start to live their according to the new facts of life and will thank you not lying.

Truth for me is about saying, thinking and doing the same thing. I have practiced it and now it is just natural to me. That is my truth, it may not be someone else's truth but it is what it is. I find a great sanity in living this way. But of course if we know people are not going to accept our truth then we have the choice of remaining quiet. We don't have to yell it from the roof top...

Some wise words there, thanks. Out of interest - what would you do if you were in Josh's position? Would you tell the truth including all details, and risk splitting a family, or tell the truth and remain quiet on some confrontational details?

That appears to be the crux of the issue - at what point does a partial truth become a lie (discounting outright deceit, which is a negative issue to be resolved, but thats another thread!). This point is entirely subjective from person to person.

Is invoking negative emotions in others is wise at this time, when the opposite is needed to assit Gaia's evolution?

An STO person always has other Selves at heart, and as Josh stated, is putting them through the emotional battle really necessary? They will have to deal with their judgements when they pass over, does repeating the process hold any additional value?

That last questions are open by the way, not directed and yourself thefool - thinking out loud

L&L

[thefool]

Some wise words there, thanks. Out of interest - what would you do if you were in Josh's position? Would you tell the truth including all details, and risk splitting a family, or tell the truth and remain quiet on some confrontational details?

Namaste-
Those original words were not intended for Josh as such. I was in a hurry to leave the office and just saw the last part of his post stating the question about Lying. That triggered this monologue lol

Josh- I don't know what I would have done in your situation as every situation is different and has nuances. But after reading your post I feel you handled it fine. In my opinion if that is what you said then it was not a lie. You did not volunteer extra information but you did not lie as per me. It is fine. Why do you feel like you were lying? There seems to be a much bigger undertone that just this incident ... just my guess...

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Is invoking negative emotions in others is wise at this time, when the opposite is needed to assit Gaia's evolution?

Of course not talking about this situation but in general-
Invoking negative emotions is never wise but telling the the truth has a much bigger role. When you just lie you are not solving anything. The absence of negative is not necessarily positive. Positive start with solid foundations. Truth is part of that foundation. Lying in a situation is just like putting flowers on an injury. Is it going to treat the injury? the treatment begins with telling the truth that there is a problem and we need to treat this. Positive comes from understanding the situation including the negative aspects, understand the lessons from the situation and then finding love in that situation...

I really think that there is better possibility of acceptance and love when all parties have all cards out in the open. And no one is holding their cards close to the chest. There may be an initial ruffling of feathers and an emotional drama may ensue. But in the long run the trust gained is worth it. The other person is just living in confusion about your real intentions then they can not even start with the their own healing/forgiveness process... What are they going to forgive when they are not even sure you have done anything wrong? We just keep living this luke warm ways and never having the courage to move forward...

I really really find it so much saner/easier to just tell the truth and see how the chips falls. And deal with it one time then deal with living the lie everyday... (again it is not related to this specific situation)

Of course telling the truth does not have to be blunt and in your face. You can be compassionate and gentle, and I find myself committing that mistake as well...

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That last questions are open by the way, not directed and yourself thefool - thinking out loud

No harm done even if directed at me. My validation comes from inside and not from outside...

[Monica]

I really really find it so much saner/easier to just tell the truth and see how the chips falls. And deal with it one time then deal with living the lie everyday...

As adults, we have that option. We can tell the truth and not be responsible for how others perceive that truth.

However, Josh is in a different situation. He lives with his parents. By definition, his parents have the power to make life difficult for him if they don't like what he does.

Young adults whose lives are still controlled to some degree by their parents might not have the luxury of being totally open and honest with their parents, because their parents can do any number of things to make their kids' lives uncomfortable or even miserable.

A young adult living with his/her parents might be old enough and mature enough to make his/her own decisions about his/her private life, but not yet have the freedom to choose his/her own home, lifestyle, etc. and thus be subject to his/her parents' approval/disapproval.

If I were still living at home with my parents, who didn't understand my choices, I wouldn't feel deceptive in withholding personal details from them. I don't think it's a 'lie' to refrain from telling others about our personal lives. The key here is whether it is personal info. I would consider anything we do in our free time, what we choose to put into our bodies, what we do in the bedroom, etc. all to be personal details, and I wouldn't feel obligated to tell someone those details, especially a parent who has the power to enforce punishment if they don't like my choices.

[thefool]

I really really find it so much saner/easier to just tell the truth and see how the chips falls. And deal with it one time then deal with living the lie everyday...

As adults, we have that option. We can tell the truth and not be responsible for how others perceive that truth.

However, Josh is in a different situation. He lives with his parents. By definition, his parents have the power to make life difficult for him if they don't like what he does.

Young adults whose lives are still controlled to some degree by their parents might not have the luxury of being totally open and honest with their parents, because their parents can do any number of things to make their kids' lives uncomfortable or even miserable.

A young adult living with his/her parents might be old enough and mature enough to make his/her own decisions about his/her private life, but not yet have the freedom to choose his/her own home, lifestyle, etc. and thus be subject to his/her parents' approval/disapproval.

If I were still living at home with my parents, who didn't understand my choices, I wouldn't feel deceptive in withholding personal details from them. I don't think it's a 'lie' to refrain from telling others about our personal lives. The key here is whether it is personal info. I would consider anything we do in our free time, what we choose to put into our bodies, what we do in the bedroom, etc. all to be personal details, and I wouldn't feel obligated to tell someone those details, especially a parent who has the power to enforce punishment if they don't like my choices.

That is fine. I already said it was not a targeted message to Josh. And I don't want anyone to read it that way...