Philosophy and Gender Statistics

[Jade]

I have a thought experiment.

Pretend you just found out about the Law of One. You've been feeling extremely alone with your new revelations, so you were googling and suddenly you found this community. Jackpot, right? So you start reading the forums and you notice that the majority of the regular posters (90%+) are female. That's cool, so far everyone seems cool, save for a couple extremists that are a bit off-putting. Then you find a thread titled "Caretaking and Gender" and you open the thread, and you see a discussion between the females about why there aren't more male posters on the forum. The OP states how over 92% of nurses are females, and the conversation falls to how females are just better at and more versed in caring for other people, and they also are more in tune with their emotions, so this is probably why the Law of One's service to others philosophy caters more towards the female demographic. But, at least the men who do post on the forums are well beyond the capabilities of the average man.

If you were a male, would you feel welcomed as a new poster? Would you feel less lonely? Do you think this type of posting would further their goal in attempting to balance the gender gap that is occurring, or do you think it might just be helping reinforce the echo chamber?

[Night Owl]

The more we call out the elephant in the room the bigger it gets.

[Bring4th_Austin]

And I would ask the men who feel as though the culture of this forum is not the reason for lesser female participation to please, earnestly and with compassion, try to put yourself in the shoes of a woman who reads some of the words that have been shared lately. When I do so, it doesn't exactly surprise me that there are fewer women here.

This would depend entirely upon why someone is here at all. Personally, I don't seek validation or even community, usually, though it can be nice to discover that in a thread here. I like the subjects canvassed, the level of depth in the Ra Material, and the opportunity to explore my self and potential by stretching beyond my own boundaries. I don't need, nor is it efficacious to always have, agreement.

There are different ways to take "words that have been shared lately" regarding feminism and the plight of women. One can resist reacting and act with purpose; leave in a huff; decide this forum is not the place to discuss this sensitive subject (and yet, where—with women only who all agree?); try and engage open-mindedly and learn about self by allowing the surfacing of triggered wounds; have compassion for self, other women, and men; and so on ad infinitum. None of it is "wrong," and all is a choice.

I feel a major problem with much of humanity is expectations. 

Many people who find the Law of One and wish to participate in a community really are seeking validation and community. There are also plenty of other motivations for participating on such a forum, but a home for wanderers is a primary goal of the forums. Seekers who resonate with the Law of One tend to be sensitive, alienated, lonely, and have a longing for connection with others.

It's true the Law of One can allow us to "rise above" issues and view them from an ultimate level of peace and unity despite any apparent distortions. In a perfect community, anyone could say whatever they wanted and it would be acknowledged as appropriate for that person in their time, coming from their unique perspective, and need not have any emotional affect on the reader. In imperfect third density, this just isn't realistic.

If there is a particular pattern that plays out in which a particular type of person - one who likes the Law of One, L/L Research, or just alternative spirituality; a person who wants to find a community of like-minded seekers; a person who is sensitive to the disharmony of the world; a person who happens to be a woman - finds this community and does not feel it offers those things, and even speaks against them, then I think it warrants some investigation as to why that pattern exists, otherwise it may just perpetuate itself until the only people left are ones who are uniquely able to detach from the emotional atmosphere of seemingly disharmonious social interaction. This level of detachment should not be a barrier for participation.

The ultimate responsibility is always on the individual in determining how they will react to any given catalyst. This is, indeed, the ultimate freedom, and perhaps the most beneficial thing I have gained from the Law of One. But I don't think that individual responsibility absolves a community from any responsibility in what distortions their culture may perpetuate.

I have to admit I am quite impressed by the rational side of women interested in the LOO. It's really not something I have crossed elsewhere in my life....maybe ever. - Speaking of culture. I know that this statement may be made as a compliment, but if I put myself in the shoes of a woman, I would take it as quite demeaning to women in general. I am not commenting on the intent of the statement, only on how it can be perceived. To me, it paints a thread like this in a negative light, influences how the rest of the discussion comes off. It seems as though you are saying that women in general are irrational, but the women attracted to the Law of One are special and they like the material despite the fact that they're women. I suspect women do not want to be a part of a culture where they are simply assumed to be irrational because of their gender.

Well some people can even turn a sentence such as ''I love you'' into a negative intent so I can just hope that you have read that as a compliment. I mean I just basically said earlier that the question itself brings distortions into the discussion because labelling people by their gender only goes so far. This was basically only a remark that I feel like the women on bring4th have deepen their rationality to a level I have not seen elsewhere. It was a focus on their specialty indeed, not their gender. Of course I am as well impressed by the rationality of men on this forum as well, and bring4th in general, it's just that the topic was fitting for this choice of words. It's just a content that requires a very rational approach in order to integrate fully. I know as well there are lots of rational women outside of bring4th I just think if I compare most active female of bring4th I would say they achieve a degree of rationality that I don't see in many of what we could call a stereotype of rational women like political women or something like that (again that's a generalization). It's actually really hard to talk about a subject that is filled with generalization without generalizing in return. I hope most of you can read that without any offense as there are no offense intended. Words have strong barriers sometimes.

I appreciate you explaining what you intended with your statement. I understand that any sentence may be interpreted in any way, but there are limits to interpretation. I was pointing out your statement because I do think that it can easily be interpreted as demeaning towards women, and how such a statement, despite intent, can contribute to a culture where such a community as this one may seem unwelcoming.

I think we all hope that we will be given the benefit of the doubt in our words when posting, but it always helps to give extra consideration to topics that have proven to be sensitive and seek to be as welcoming as possible.

[Night Owl]

I appreciate you explaining what you intended with your statement.  I understand that any sentence may be interpreted in any way, but there are limits to interpretation. I was pointing out your statement because I do think that it can easily be interpreted as demeaning towards women, and how such a statement, despite intent, can contribute to a culture where such a community as this one may seem unwelcoming.

I think we all hope that we will be given the benefit of the doubt in our words when posting, but it always helps to give extra consideration to topics that have proven to be sensitive and seek to be as welcoming as possible.

Thanks for pointing it out anyway. I do know my words do not always come out as intended. That's probably my orange ray bleeding all over the place. I'm not a very good communicator, my strenght lies more in self reflection, rational thinking and compassion. I would repeat over and over to anyone that I have no negative intentions towards them, no matter who it is if it would solve the problem, but it seems like it doesn't solve everything, it's a one on one situation I guess. I often feel like part of misunderstandings in which I am part of reinforce a barrier I have with words. I usually don't need words to understand someone and as soon as things are expressed verbally it gets all distorted in all sorts of ways. It has been clear to me how words is a powerful barrier in that unless the other is willingly and consciously desiring to understand the other, the words will be misinterpreted no matter what, and in ways we don't have any control over. It's a barrier I have a very hard time getting over with, I'm not sure I even understand how to do such a thing since obviously we cannot decide for others to be willing to understand us. All I'm hoping for is that honest intentions do as much as they can until I find better words, which often comes much later on. I do try and improve with each post, although like I've said earlier, getting involved into a subject which initially brings distortions is very hard to communicate without getting sucked up into the disagreements, even when you clearly understand the problematic. How many of us needs to constantly restate and reexplain ourselves in order to clear misunderstandings while we already agree in the first place? I wish we would communicate some other way, more intuitively.

A common pattern I see is when someone explains a concept using positive/negative terminology in order to differenciate two concepts, then someone gets angry at the intent of judging an idea as negative, then someone gets angry at the fact that they get labelled by the former description, then someone gets angry for not being understood in the discussion etc etc etc going full circle. And usually every participants already have a clear understanding of the relativity of negative/positive terminology and they probably would already agree on most aspect of the discussions if they would meet in person. Maybe this is why yellow ray discussions get so much reply, the illusion of seperation makes it very hard to understand one another through this process.

[Diana]

If there is a particular pattern that plays out in which a particular type of person - one who likes the Law of One, L/L Research, or just alternative spirituality; a person who wants to find a community of like-minded seekers; a person who is sensitive to the disharmony of the world; a person who happens to be a woman - finds this community and does not feel it offers those things, and even speaks against them, then I think it warrants some investigation as to why that pattern exists, otherwise it may just perpetuate itself until the only people left are ones who are uniquely able to detach from the emotional atmosphere of seemingly disharmonious social interaction. This level of detachment should not be a barrier for participation.

The ultimate responsibility is always on the individual in determining how they will react to any given catalyst. This is, indeed, the ultimate freedom, and perhaps the most beneficial thing I have gained from the Law of One. But I don't think that individual responsibility absolves a community from any responsibility in what distortions their culture may perpetuate.

If I were to have followed this line of thinking you would have lost me a long time ago. Not that I matter so much. But the insensitivity—sometimes violent, and often attacking even if only passive-aggressively—played out over a number of years regarding vegans and vegetarians and animal abuse, was enormously larger than this relatively small conflict regarding gender in today's world.

One might say, gender equality in this day and age should be a no-brainer, but just the term "gender equality" is separating. To me, it's just as horrible that we don't see all beings as equal in value, as it is for someone else who thinks it's horrible men and women aren't seen as equal.

Acceptance and tolerance might be key factors in this discussion. I feel we are painting women as victims and that does not at all align with my view. And before anyone accuses me of being privileged again, yes, I'm white (looking), and born in the US, but I have had my share of heartbreak including an abusive childhood. And I might add that humans have collective responsibility, even in spiritual communities, for the state of things in 3D. That can't be said, with much evidence, for the animal, plant, mineral communities, and the planet itself.

Of course, this is not my forum. But I will add that walking on eggshells, or trying to placate a particular person(s), may not be helpful. On the other hand, compassion, and discernment in compassion, is of the utmost importance, to me. It isn't simple, any of it. In addition, I do not think most people understand what I mean by detachment, regardless of how much I struggle to explain it, and interpret it as not caring or being too intellectual or cold. It's not that at all.

[Coordinate_Apotheosis]

I have a thought experiment.

Pretend you just found out about the Law of One. You've been feeling extremely alone with your new revelations, so you were googling and suddenly you found this community. Jackpot, right? So you start reading the forums and you notice that the majority of the regular posters (90%+) are female. That's cool, so far everyone seems cool, save for a couple extremists that are a bit off-putting. Then you find a thread titled "Caretaking and Gender" and you open the thread, and you see a discussion between the females about why there aren't more male posters on the forum. The OP states how over 92% of nurses are females, and the conversation falls to how females are just better at and more versed in caring for other people, and they also are more in tune with their emotions, so this is probably why the Law of One's service to others philosophy caters more towards the female demographic. But, at least the men who do post on the forums are well beyond the capabilities of the average man.

If you were a male, would you feel welcomed as a new poster? Would you feel less lonely? Do you think this type of posting would further their goal in attempting to balance the gender gap that is occurring, or do you think it might just be helping reinforce the echo chamber?

Welcomed yes.
Less lonely, highly doubt it.

I don't know what constitutes an echo chamber but I wouldn't call any communitty such unless it didn't allow certain views to be expressed in favor of the comfort of the majority.

I also am biased in these questions as I do find on average that women are more empathetic towards me than men and that they typically would be more thoughtful about another's well being than a typical man

All typicals.

Bring4th is not your typical forum.  People talk of everything from conspiracy to literature to health to spiriruality to sex to politics to art to technology to science to psychology, even porn, fetishes, rape, abuse, racism and sexism, if this place is an echo chamber then we are a very broad series of subjects and genres of echoes.

I see your point though that such an opinion is still hurtful and degrading to a woman in a typical generalisation of all women are lesser than the forum poster on the forum.

I think I've discovered just how...deeply ingrained and just how severe, intricate, and slyly the typical male has been skewed to view a female to be unequal.

While we consciously believe it, we subconsciously seem to not have fully come to appreciate this.

The constant reinforcement that a woman needs this or is that doesn't help either.  The sly exposure of a severe lack of female protagonists in media and literature but a higher commonality of a female antagonist doesn't help.  A continual campaign in advertising towards female and consumerism against women doesn't help.   I don't recall seeing many cleaning or cooking programs performed by men, as if to say that is what a women is supposed to do...

Then the bombardment of children programming at young ages.  Barbie dolls made unproportionately to real anatomy to skew an idea of attractive, the same is done to action figures for boys.  Dora the Explorer even got a visual redo to be more feminine by american standards which mostly included giving her longer hair and a more colorful palette for her character design, more curves to her design.

This is almost basically a culture wide psychic war against an equal view of women.

Its saturated in all of us, and though some have better defenses this community proved that even open-minded critical thinking people who study philosophy and spirituality are not immune to their perceptions and ideas being gently warped to push separation by societal structures like the media or the news or advertising...

Thank you for the thought project, Jade.  Its remindes me of something I did not want to believe...Just how badly of an uphill battle women have been shafted with, and anyone, possibly everyone, is potentially an agent of separation against women, and they may never even notice or realize it.

An extremely scary thought...  What can be done? How can anyone, man or woman, fight what's been subconsciousy programmed into them over the years? How do they stop it from continuing?  What can be done to end these movements of separation on a mass scale?

 

[Jade]

I don't know what constitutes an echo chamber but I wouldn't call any communitty such unless it didn't allow certain views to be expressed in favor of the comfort of the majority.

I think one way it is exemplified is in how I come in to make a comment in a thread about gender statistics, and the retort to me is that I'm "making the elephant in the room bigger" by talking about it, when I am merely contributing to a discussion thread that already has 30 posts.

An extremely scary thought...  What can be done? How can anyone, man or woman, fight what's been subconsciousy programmed into them over the years? How do they stop it from continuing?  What can be done to end these movements of separation on a mass scale?

I have no idea, either. I think we could discover more if we talked about this as a group and more people were willing to acknowledge there was a problem to begin with, so thanks for taking that step. What do you suggest?

[Diana]

I have no idea, either. I think we could discover more if we talked about this as a group and more people were willing to acknowledge there was a problem to begin with, so thanks for taking that step. What do you suggest?

We are talking about it as a group. This is good. While there may not be understanding yet, I do think most, is not all, members here do think there is a problem. Things are rarely the way we expect them to be, and usually, more difficult.

[Night Owl]

I think one way it is exemplified is in how I come in to make a comment in a thread about gender statistics, and the retort to me is that I'm "making the elephant in the room bigger" by talking about it, when I am merely contributing to a discussion thread that already has 30 posts.

Sheesh Jade that was not meant to say stop pointing it out it gets bigger it was more like you are so right here's the result our unfruitful efforts so far.

Maybe I should have just shut up. My intentions have been read wrong all day long because I contain the most angry feelings I have ever felt in my life while trying to talk peace and I suppose it makes no sense to anyone but my feelings have nothing to do with anyone here if that helps anyone understand. Sorry you had to feel attacked it wasn't my intention.

[Coordinate_Apotheosis]

Jade you are one of the moderators, of one of the more open forums I've ever seen.  You are like, by choice of the ones who run the place always free to express and be yourself.

Just know that with any superb honesty, something is going to come up in a sensitive area.  I personally didn't mean to hurt you so bad and I promise I will try much harder to catch myself from saying any more demeaning and hurtful things unintentionally.

And also, I forgive you because I saw my words basically poked a finger into a wound and greatly hurt you.  It was poor of me to do so without realizing, I will try better Jade.  Just please don't be scared to voice yourself even against opposition.

Your humbleness is precious to me but I really like your views and opinions and you no matter what is said of them or you.  You work hard, you do so well as best you can.

Thank you for not leaving.

I have a bunch of not so practical ideas. I'd even argue a temporary matriarchy might be beneficial if its not like the current patriarchy fighting like crazy to remain dominate, but rather just a change and chance to even the playing field for women, to cast them as superior just enough for the programming in most men to be neutralized by strongly conflicting experiences that will help them see.

I like how Morgan Freeman said to end racism, I think it can be applied here.  Stop talking about it in a way that reinforces the fact its so prevalent.  Speak of it only as a fading problem of the past.  Let it know its time came and went, and alwys speak of equality rather than separation.

We are Humans.  We are Earthlings.  We all belong to the same Mother Earth and Infinite Creator.  We all are equally important.  We all need love and care like anyone else, even the negative reincarnated entities were once babbling babies with love in their eyes.  Every person, no matter the sex or race or culture, is a human being, an earthling, a child of earth.

If one group of Earthlings is suppressing another, its up to everyone to say those times have come and gone and to help those being suppressed and to teach those doing the suppressing that its literally cruel and unusual to treat another differently for how they were born and where they were born.

Love is the answer, hatred of inequality can be a motivator so long as it isn't violent.

We just all, all of us, need to acknowledge that something should be thought, said, and done.

[Jade]

Hi Joseph, thank you for being patient with me and trying to understand. Sorry I have failed in my own patience. You have done such a good job in spite of my failings, so thank you.

I like how Morgan Freeman said to end racism, I think it can be applied here.  Stop talking about it in a way that reinforces the fact its so prevalent.  Speak of it only as a fading problem of the past.  Let it know its time came and went, and alwys speak of equality rather than separation.

I guess my problem with the Morgan Freeman video is that Morgan Freeman is an extremely wealthy man. He's obviously not affected by racial issues like black people who live on the south side of Chicago. I wonder if other African Americans feel that Morgan speaks for them on this issue? I've tried to use the analogy of a bodily illness - if you have a pain in your leg, do you just ignore it and say that it's an "illness of the past"? Or do you address what's wrong, and then let it heal? It's a slippery paradox, of course, because we must envision the healed reality we want to create, but I think the reason I feel so reactive to this issue in particular is because I feel like the forum here quite often says that talking about things makes them worse. I don't agree with that. I think talking about things is the FIRST STEP to making them better. And that means, I believe, a lot of the men who are internalizing the guilt for the events that women speak of occurring need to find a way to let that go. No one is asking you to feel guilty, and it's the guilt that causes repression. At least, that's how I see this playing out a lot. You think it's the guilt we're asking for but we're really just asking for acknowledgement in the ways that we ALL unconsciously participate in this paradigm, because in that way we are shedding light on things that are still in the darkness. To speak of it as a "problem in the past" when it's clearly not is to keep it in darkness. To say that we are in a state of equality now will perpetuate the inequality we have accepted as status quo.

[Night Owl]

Somehow I get the feeling that morgan freeman is beyond his wealth. You should look up his last show: the story of god with morgan freeman. He appears to me like someone who listen without judging and has a deep understanding of unity despite his wealth. I can totally understand your concern, I just feel he's personally not a case where you should worry too much about that. He seems honest and mature to me.

[Jade]

I'm not judging him negatively for being rich, I'm just saying that wealth can insulate people from social problems. For him, it just sounds like he'd rather the idea of racism just go away, because to him it's just an idea because he likely hasn't directly experienced its repercussions for a while. For those who experience it daily, it won't just go away if people stop talking about it. For revered A-list celebrities, yeah, it probably would.

[Night Owl]

I think he specially bring the issue of racism he's been facing as a kid in this show. I think his point is not necessarily to stop talking about it at all but more to stop talking about it in a way that focuses on seperation itself. In this particular subject with gender I think it would be more about to stop seeing the problem from the perspective that it's about gender but more about unhealed perceptions of gender themselves. But I'm sure you already know all that. I'm just making sure the initial misunderstanding is not a barrier to his message and you're just making sure his point doesn't create a barrier to your message. Both are right are valid I think.

[Bring4th_Austin]

If there is a particular pattern that plays out in which a particular type of person - one who likes the Law of One, L/L Research, or just alternative spirituality; a person who wants to find a community of like-minded seekers; a person who is sensitive to the disharmony of the world; a person who happens to be a woman - finds this community and does not feel it offers those things, and even speaks against them, then I think it warrants some investigation as to why that pattern exists, otherwise it may just perpetuate itself until the only people left are ones who are uniquely able to detach from the emotional atmosphere of seemingly disharmonious social interaction. This level of detachment should not be a barrier for participation.

The ultimate responsibility is always on the individual in determining how they will react to any given catalyst. This is, indeed, the ultimate freedom, and perhaps the most beneficial thing I have gained from the Law of One. But I don't think that individual responsibility absolves a community from any responsibility in what distortions their culture may perpetuate.

If I were to have followed this line of thinking you would have lost me a long time ago. Not that I matter so much. But the insensitivity—sometimes violent, and often attacking even if only passive-aggressively—played out over a number of years regarding vegans and vegetarians and animal abuse, was enormously larger than this relatively small conflict regarding gender in today's world.

The vegan/vegetarian discussions are a great example of discussions being non-welcoming. There is much room for improvement in mindful and welcoming communication (on both sides, in my eyes). This is indicative of society as a whole in that regard.

But I would not necessarily place discussions about veganism in the same category as discussions about gender equality. It's certainly useful to draw comparisons, especially to communication styles, and the discussions might be connected in many ways. But the social dynamics involved in these two things are distinct enough to not view them equally in this discussion.

You probably replied to that sentiment preemptively in:

One might say, gender equality in this day and age should be a no-brainer, but just the term "gender equality" is separating. To me, it's just as horrible that we don't see all beings as equal in value, as it is for someone else who thinks it's horrible men and women aren't seen as equal.

I think what you're saying is that the term "gender equality" is separating because it separates gender as a whole from the rest of creation?

I would view it more as a microscope, or a medical imaging of a certain organ. To focus on a certain aspect of a whole does not imply a separation of that aspect. It's completely possible to acknowledge that the entire system should be viewed as an interconnected system while still focusing on particular issues. Sometimes it is impossible to diagnose and treat a distortion without focusing on the area of that distortion.

For instance, if a person goes to the doctor because their foot hurts, it would be most helpful for the doctor to first examine the foot itself, without dismissing that the foot is part of the whole body.

Maybe another analogy is better. What I interpret you as saying is that discussion of gender equality is basically "not seeing the forest for the trees," as the popular idiom goes. The health and balance of the whole forest is important, and focusing on a single tree could result in neglect of the rest of the forest. At the same time, if there is a single tree that is unhealthy, and it may be helped, the health of the whole forest improves as a result.

Acceptance and tolerance might be key factors in this discussion. I feel we are painting women as victims and that does not at all align with my view. And before anyone accuses me of being privileged again, yes, I'm white (looking), and born in the US, but I have had my share of heartbreak including an abusive childhood. And I might add that humans have collective responsibility, even in spiritual communities, for the state of things in 3D. That can't be said, with much evidence, for the animal, plant, mineral communities, and the planet itself.

Victimization can be applied in different ways. I don't think that the discussion of gender equality victimizes women in the way you intend to mean. Acknowledging that scales are tipped in favor of one side over another is not to say the disenfranchised side must adopt a mentality of victimhood. It's a simple acknowledgment of an issue that can be addressed by finding out what is tipping the scales and trying to rebalance them.

In other words, acknowledging that a person is on the receiving end of unfair treatment does imply any sort of attitude or behavior on behalf of that person. It can, depending on how it is addressed, but it isn't innate in the observation.

Of course, this is not my forum. But I will add that walking on eggshells, or trying to placate a particular person(s), may not be helpful. On the other hand, compassion, and discernment in compassion, is of the utmost importance, to me. It isn't simple, any of it. In addition, I do not think most people understand what I mean by detachment, regardless of how much I struggle to explain it, and interpret it as not caring or being too intellectual or cold. It's not that at all.

I certainly agree it isn't simple, and part of the complication is that sensitivity towards certain issues and aspects of culture can be dismissed as "walking on eggshells" or, in this community specifically, "denying a person their catalyst." Some areas are more sensitive for us as a community and for society in general, and ultimate healing of those areas can benefit from increased sensitivity.

Back to the hurt foot analogy, it can be helpful to step more lightly on the hurt foot instead of pretending both feet are healthy and placing equal weight on both. The former can encourage quicker healing, the latter can prolong the pain.

The detachment that I spoke about in my own post, which may or may not be related to the detachment you speak about, wasn't about being too intellectual or cold. Detachment can be the most empowering tool in a spiritual seekers toolbox. But an expectation of detachment can, I think, bypass a necessary stage balancing and healing.

[Diana]

@ Austin:

I am not going to answer point by point, as I feel we are ships missing each other on the ocean of perspective and focus, and I suppose I'm just not that attached to the human drama to continue to try and make my points understood. It is interesting to read however. I will add only that I really think blame is a dead end.