Faith or Will

[Unbound]

You are precisely correct in your understanding of the congruency of faith and intelligent infinity; however, one is a spiritual term, the other more acceptable perhaps to the conceptual framework distortions of those who seek with measure and pen.

This adds another spin on this... anyone have any thoughts on this?

[Patrick]

Interesting !

[Siren]

You are precisely correct in your understanding of the congruency of faith and intelligent infinity; however, one is a spiritual term, the other more acceptable perhaps to the conceptual framework distortions of those who seek with measure and pen.

This adds another spin on this... anyone have any thoughts on this?

Yes. I point out once again to the "knowing before knowing that which you already know." Consider that Intelligent Infinity Is. It just Is. Always Is. That is Its state of being. Timelessly, spacelessly. It Is What It Is.

Creation has its origination in the Awareness of Intelligent Infinity. Finding focus through Freewill, the Logo(i) bring about the illusion(s) of Creation to be experienced/explored/experimented with. This also produces time and space. Hence, casuality/linearity.

But what is your fate always? Your fate, your ultimate destiny/destination is returning to that state of Infinite Awareness of Infinity, or Intelligent Infinity. That which Is. Always Is.

So despite the fact that you are experiencing and evolving upwards/inwards through the densities, you, in any position you may find yourself in the evolutionary ladder/spiral at any given time, are still, always, Intelligent Infinity. All us ultimately One. All is well. And that is your fate. Or faith.

[Ankh]

You are precisely correct in your understanding of the congruency of faith and intelligent infinity; however, one is a spiritual term, the other more acceptable perhaps to the conceptual framework distortions of those who seek with measure and pen.

This adds another spin on this... anyone have any thoughts on this?

Yes, a lot! Starting with post #21 in this thread:

http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthrea...2#pid67832

[Steppingfeet]

The human vernacular is one that is particularly loquacious. This distinct bombastic grandiloquence, though arguably "rich," "articulate" and "poetic," is something I could very well live without (then again, this may be something that has to do with where I come from, my own experience, and my preference for other more efficient/clearer/simpler mediums of communication).

By and large I think that "sound vibration complexes" produced by the vocal chords, the pen, & the keyboard, along with thought-forms of the mind shaped in the mold of words, serve as a handicap to those portions of the Creator unconscious of their true nature as one being.

For reasons you describe well below, language divides that which, in essence, is indivisible. Language-based thinking and communication superimposes separate faces over top of that which can never be separated. Language is inextricably interwoven into, and made possible because of, and further perpetuates the illusory systems of both space and time. It is in the main a device of illusion, an illusion creator.

Yet at the same time I would posit that language, just like everything else in the creation, is not inherently limiting.

Ultimately I don't think the argument stands which contends that, because I speak language/think in the terms of language, I cannot radiate/become truth.

It's akin to saying:

Because I am in a yellow-ray physical complex, I cannot know the self as the Creator.

Because there is a veil creating the illusion that I am separate from all that there is, I cannot see the truth.

Because I live on one of the most jacked-up planets in all of the cosmos, I am locked into an illusory identity.

All things, language included, can be rendered transparent to the Creator, the Creator out of which all things spring and are not independent of.

Human beings have this particular tendency/need to label and categorize and sub-categorize and sub-sub-categorize practically everything they come across with. This gives them the (false) sense or notion that they got things "under control," dissected and comparmentalized for seemingly "better" understanding. However, I think the greater the verbosity, the greater (probability of) misunderstanding/confusion.

Truth is, this verbal means of communication, is of a transient nature. The Universe, the One Infinite Creator/Creation, Infinity Itself, is not describable by words (I'm sure you are aware that past mid-4D verbal language becomes increasingly useless).

Agreed. Every mystic the world over, everyone who has tasted firsthand experience of unity, will describe the absolute and total futility of words and description in the face of the infinite mystery. That the experience is ineffable is a key quality of the unitive merging of self into self.

I think this is where one of the most mystically oriented of excerpts from the Law of One material comes into play:

84.7 Ra: I am Ra. We may ... suggest that it is a grand choice that each may make to, by desire, collect the details of the day or, by desire, seek the keys to unknowing.

Language is built on the premise of subject and object, two things which, ultimately and in reality, do not exist. Or, better, are transient and illusory.

To "know" implies this relationship of subject to object. The subject doing the knowing. The object being known. And the activity of knowing.

Whereas in unity, in the transcendence of all manifested forms, in the embrace of the formless - (and in the final recognition that the formless and form are one) - there is no dichotomy of subject/object, thus no "knowing". Thus no language.

Thus, humor is in order.

Oftentimes, when I hear/read "men of intellect" speak/write/argue about scholarly/scientific matters, I stand aghast, because at a certain point it all has turned into a battle of words that is fought with the knowledge of dictionaries and lexicons and encyclopedias—and the true essence of the message is lost beneath the superfluous amount of verbal logorrhea that is being uttered. So I naturally find this babbling gibberish and jabbering gobbledygock to be extremely unnecessary (but again, that's just me).

Indeed. Most peoples, myself include, are lost examining all things under the sun *except for* the one doing the examining, i.e., the self. Most are having conversations without asking who is having the conversation, without investigated the real seer, the real questioner.

Such a high dependance on a verbal language beffudles the mind from reaching deeper, clearer, simpler understandings (particuarly when it comes to "higher" philosophies or universal/spiritual principles).

Agreed. When we lose our, as you say, dependence on language, we begin to realize the inescapable fact of our consciousness, that being that naked, unqualifiable, infinite awareness needs no language. At the same time we can recognize language's utility within the illusory world of name and form.

Thus, most times I refrain from engaging in verbal communications (this is ironical, however, since communication itself is one of my primary needs, gifts and "virtues"—I am not of Libra and the Air sign by random chance of luck, after all.)

The artist bemoans the limitations of his canvas and palette. : )

I do apologize for the lenghtiness of my response—and for somewhat diverging from your original question (I am still working on synthesizing my writings in a more concise manner). But I did feel I could use this opportunity to express my viewpoint on the subject of "language" itself.

This conversation doesn't tackle the "faith or will" question directly, but it does touch on it indirectly by having the larger conversation of the role of language, in my opinion. Thank you for your post.

[anagogy]

Prior to the veiling process the measurement would be that of an entity walking up a set of your stairs, each of which was imbued with a certain quality of light. The stair upon which an entity stopped would be either third-density light or fourth-density light. Between the two stairs lies the threshold. To cross that threshold is difficult. There is resistance at the edge, shall we say, of each density. The faculty of faith or will needs to be understood, nourished, and developed in order to have an entity which seeks past the boundary of third density. Those entities which do not do their homework, be they ever so amiable, shall not cross. It was this situation which faced the Logoi prior to the veiling process being introduced into the experiential continuum of third density.

I have actually never considered "faith" and "will" to be synonymous before, what do any of you have to consider on this?

I agree that, in principal, will and faith are essentially the same in nature. Allow me to share my understanding of the relationship between consciousness, faith/belief, thought, and will. Believe it or not, they are all manifestations of the same fundamental thing, different only in degree:

What is a thought, my friends? What can be thought about? What is the scope of this thing we call "thought"? The answer is virtually anything. A cognitive object (that is to say, a mental object) can be anything. You can think of ducks, baseballs, vases, math problems, relationships, sunsets, particles, or even the cosmos itself.

So we can see, from these examples, more clearly what thought really is. What we call "thought" is simply a gathering of attention on whatever is the object of that attention. It is, in other-words, simply a focus of attention.

When you think a thought, you see things in a certain way -- the way you have painted things in your mind through the direction of your focus. So a thought is kind of like an affirmation of how things are -- a statement about reality in other-words. Or, at least if you are thinking about "what is", in any-case. As Ra says, if you think about something in a general contemplative sense, it manifests else where, having no particular attachment to the energy field of the creator of said thought-form (16.14 if anyone is curious).

So we can further see what thought really is. Isn't it essentially just a statement about reality? Even when it is a "what if" thought, it is still a statement about a reality. You say, "What if (X) occurred? What would that reality look like?"

Now, what is a belief? Isn't it just a more consistent statement about reality? Could it be just a deeper and more habitual thought you keep thinking? And, what is will, if not just a more *conscious* statement/intention about reality?

When you "will" something, do you not intend that it be so? So will is more like making a conscious and deep statement about reality.

So when Ra talks about nurturing ones will, we can see its relationship to what we call "faith". Will *IS* faith. Faith *IS* belief. A belief is just a thought you keep thinking consistently and habitually. Belief is when thought has become a very definite and habitual vibrational offering. A thought is just a focus of attention. Will, faith, and intention, are the conscious focusing of attention. All these items we've discussed are only different in degree.

As Ra says:

42.11 Ra: I am Ra. There is but one technique for this growing or nurturing of will and faith, and that is the focusing of the attention. The attention span of those you call children is considered short. The spiritual attention span of most of your peoples is that of the child. Thus it is a matter of wishing to become able to collect one’s attention and hold it upon the desired programming.

This, when continued, strengthens the will. The entire activity can only occur when there exists faith that an outcome of this discipline is possible.

Do you see the relationship? They are all the focus of consciousness -- the focus of attention. Pure faith, or pure will, is simply the non-contradicted focus of consciousness. In the absence of contradiction, the statement about reality is NOT negated, and if the faith is pure the manifestation is also pure. The reason thoughts don't always manifest is particularly do to the fact that they are not as intense or defined as beliefs are. They aren't as "sure" of themselves, in a sense.

This is why pure faith moves mountains. It is a pure focusing of intelligent energy.

[Shin'Ar]

In a sense Anagogy is very accurate here.

But to take it a step further, one must consider the origin of thought.

When this is done we see that thought is also intelligent energy, and thus why we see it in so many varying degrees of manifestation.

It is a wave form, and can be increased and decreased in frequency. Decrease it enough and it becomes dense enough to transform into matter. Thus a thought can literally become anything depending on the vibration and frequency of it.

All thought has One Origin, can be transformed to once again become what it originated as.

[Steppingfeet]

What is a thought, my friends? What can be thought about? What is the scope of this thing we call "thought"? The answer is virtually anything. A cognitive object (that is to say, a mental object) can be anything. You can think of ducks, baseballs, vases, math problems, relationships, sunsets, particles, or even the cosmos itself.

Most excellent... thought, Anagogy. Perhaps this is a way of considering Ra's statement regarding the mind containing all things.

So we can see, from these examples, more clearly what thought really is. What we call "thought" is simply a gathering of attention on whatever is the object of that attention. It is, in other-words, simply a focus of attention.

Love this definition!

I would add that it is thought, or the faculty of the mind itself, which is creating the object. Without something which "thinks" it can stand apart from unity --- and divide unity into endless categories and sub-categories, and reflect/compare/contrast the resulting objects, and find identity in relationship to the objects ---- there are no objects. At least not an "object" that is independent of and separate from the All.

When you think a thought, you see things in a certain way -- the way you have painted things in your mind through the direction of your focus. So a thought is kind of like an affirmation of how things are -- a statement about reality in other-words. Or, at least if you are thinking about "what is", in any-case. As Ra says, if you think about something in a general contemplative sense, it manifests else where, having no particular attachment to the energy field of the creator of said thought-form (16.14 if anyone is curious).

So we can further see what thought really is. Isn't it essentially just a statement about reality? Even when it is a "what if" thought, it is still a statement about a reality. You say, "What if (X) occurred? What would that reality look like?"

Now, what is a belief? Isn't it just a more consistent statement about reality? Could it be just a deeper and more habitual thought you keep thinking? And, what is will, if not just a more *conscious* statement/intention about reality?

When you "will" something, do you not intend that it be so? So will is more like making a conscious and deep statement about reality.

I essentially agree with everything you've written thus far and appreciate the light that you've shed for me, personally, on this matter. I love how you've woven attention, focus, thought, and will into a continuum of experience, differing only in degree.

A belief IS a "statement about reality".

I would be very interested to see how you incorporate 54.28
where Ra describes will as a desire which is "emanating from the awareness of inner light".

In the picture that you've painted, what is "awareness of inner light" and how does it fit into this pattern?

So when Ra talks about nurturing ones will, we can see its relationship to what we call "faith". Will *IS* faith. Faith *IS* belief. A belief is just a thought you keep thinking consistently and habitually. Belief is when thought has become a very definite and habitual vibrational offering. A thought is just a focus of attention. Will, faith, and intention, are the conscious focusing of attention. All these items we've discussed are only different in degree.

I cheered at everything till the connection to faith was made in this post. It feels like there is something lacking in this description, something needed to more adequately elucidate faith and its relationship and congruency with will.

Among the many ways I view faith, I tend to see it as has been previously described over the years: a "willing suspension of disbelief".

Willingly suspending disbelief could itself be called a "belief", but to me a belief has shape and form, name and identity --- a belief is something within the realm of the manifest, pertaining to the illusion.

Whereas faith is open and formless, mysterious and sacred, and beyond the illusion, or rather, a dismantler of illusion. It is that which transforms beliefs, not necessarily into higher belief (though certainly that too), but more so as that agent which renders belief as a secondary, derivative means of knowing the Self which already is.

Faith is the direct, immediate experience of Self which needs no belief, as I perceive these things. If you already are who you are, that being the one infinite Creator, whether in third density or seventh, no belief will create a true representation of who you are. Only through the release of belief does the self merge into the self in the infinite.

Perhaps faith itself has a spectrum of experience, from simple, "I believe I can do this or I trust that this thing which has not been achieved/accomplished/seen is achievable/accomplishable/knowable", to, "I am all that there is, I am the Creator".

As Ra says:

42.11 Ra: I am Ra. There is but one technique for this growing or nurturing of will and faith, and that is the focusing of the attention. The attention span of those you call children is considered short. The spiritual attention span of most of your peoples is that of the child. Thus it is a matter of wishing to become able to collect one’s attention and hold it upon the desired programming.

This, when continued, strengthens the will. The entire activity can only occur when there exists faith that an outcome of this discipline is possible.

Do you see the relationship? They are all the focus of consciousness -- the focus of attention. Pure faith, or pure will, is simply the non-contradicted focus of consciousness. In the absence of contradiction, the statement about reality is NOT negated, and if the faith is pure the manifestation is also pure. The reason thoughts don't always manifest is particularly do to the fact that they are not as intense or defined as beliefs are. They aren't as "sure" of themselves, in a sense.

Well said!

And actually this ties into what I was writing above. I link the "suspension of disbelief" to your statement about the "non-contradicted focus of consciousness". Faith informs and enables the will by saying that this particular willed activity/desire IS possible. The purer the faith, as you say, the less negation, the less "no" function, the less belief in illusory limitations of the great Illusion, the more the will is empowered to do that which it sets out to do, results/outcomes notwithstanding.

This is why pure faith moves mountains. It is a pure focusing of intelligent energy.

Anagogy, this verse came to mind when reading your post. I'd be most interested in your take on this quote:

52.11 "Questioner: Is there then, from the point of view of an individual who wishes to follow the service-to-others path, anything of importance other than disciplines of personality, knowledge of self, and strengthening of will?

Ra: I am Ra. This is technique. This is not the heart. Let us examine the heart of evolution.

Let us remember that we are all one. This is the great learning/teaching. In this unity lies love. This is a great learn/teaching. In this unity lies light. This is the fundamental teaching of all planes of existence in materialization. Unity, love, light, and joy; this is the heart of evolution of the spirit.

The second-ranking lessons are learn/taught in meditation and in service. At some point the mind/body/spirit complex is so smoothly activated and balanced by these central thoughts or distortions that the techniques you have mentioned become quite significant. However, the universe, its mystery unbroken, is one. Always begin and end in the Creator, not in technique."


Specifically, what do you think Ra means by saying that the entity is so "smoothly activated and balanced by these central thoughts or distortions".

Do you see this as fitting into what you've written in this post? That being that an entity thinks about unity, love, light, and joy so frequently, thoroughly, and with such intensity that an, as you said, affirmation regarding the nature of reality is made, an affirmation which happens to, in the purer entity, correspond with reality?

This ties into Ra's four exercises. There it seems they say that to direct the mind to think about, or see, or contemplate, or meditate upon what is already there – i.e., love – is to make love manifest in the awareness and the experience.

In both cases (of being “smoothy activated’ and “seeing love in awareness and understanding”), will is enabled by faith to maintain a certain focus. That focus - sustained and negated less and less - creates that which it seeks. Or rather, uncreates the illusions which obscure that which is already there, allowing the entity to see/know/experience love, light, unity, and joy.

I’m not sure if I’m getting anywhere, my thoughts aren’t terribly organized. Your post made the hamster wheel turn.

Thank you, Anagogy.

[godwide_void]

I'd posted this in another thread yet realized it is much more relevant to this one:

Faith is deep-rooted belief that something will happen or exists or go this or that way when no indication that it will/does exists. When we try to Will something, we are attempting to manifest without any indication that we will succeed. In both instances, the common factor is that the mind envisions something which it desires and seeks for it to occur, for the thoughts to become manifest. When one holds faith, usually whatever thing faith was being had for seems to be willed into existence. When one attempts to Will something, it must be believed without a shadow of a doubt that it will come to be; faith must be present.

When knowledge of one's true nature as Creator begins to seep into the depths of the mind and no doubts exist any further, faith is transmuted to knowingness and Will no longer needs the faculty of faith to carry itself upon. Willing things into existence becomes almost second nature. And it is so, because there is no reason it shouldn't be given who we are. Simply familiarize oneself with the mind, the thoughts, the desires, the intentions, and orient them in such a way as to allow the "magic to happen". Magic requires faith and will, but when faith has become knowledge magic and will become synonymous. Of course this is all semantics, as you Shin'Ar have already provided a prime definition of magic as is, as the interaction between ourselves and the Creation after acknowledgement as ourselves as One in a manner that some would deem 'supernatural' but is in actuality as natural as breathing.

I also wish to add one more point for clarification. Faith is typically seen in the context of wishing for something to happen in a manner one envisions it to, and due to the subconscious feeling that such a thing is beyond one's control to orchestrate, is left in the hands of some "outside force" to handle it, thus one has faith that something will make things go one way or another. Faith is driven by one's desires. Will is similar, in that it is the sum of one's desires but it is being focused into a certain point with the intent of potential manifestation and is entirely shaped by what one wishes for. Faith and will are both underlined by one's desires. The difference is where faith is more passive, Will is more active as one will undergo particular phases and actions in order to Will something into being.

Again, the line between faith and will are blurred and merged when one comprehends themselves as Creator. There is no matter of faith in outside forces when you are the very force whom manifests what you wish. Willing something, be it a set of circumstances or experience, into existence becomes almost second nature when one has reached the aforementioned comprehension.

I'm aware also that I am overlooking another example of faith, such as having faith in one's favorite sports team or faith that the weather will get better later in the week.

[Patrick]

So with faith you co-create and with will you create ?

[godwide_void]

Will or willing something is the act of creative manifestation, and faith is passive manifestation, so yes, I think you could simplify it to that point. On on hand you are becoming a conscious Creator and are acting as one merged being with the Higher, on the other hand you are acting as a proxy while partially dependent upon the factor of outside forces handling whatever it is one desires, perhaps due to ignorance of the fact that the individual is already one with these forces or is aware of these forces and their unity with it but has not yet reached the level of understanding where one may be able to control the direction of this power, thus you would be co-Creating with these perceived "other forces".

Thank you for asking that question Valtor, it helped to clarify things on my end too.

[Patrick]

Lately, what I have co-created has resulted in something much better than what I had created before.

[Shin'Ar]

Will or willing something is the act of creative manifestation, and faith is passive manifestation, so yes, I think you could simplify it to that point. On on hand you are becoming a conscious Creator and are acting as one merged being with the Higher, on the other hand you are acting as a proxy while partially dependent upon the factor of outside forces handling whatever it is one desires, perhaps due to ignorance of the fact that the individual is already one with these forces or is aware of these forces and their unity with it but has not yet reached the level of understanding where one may be able to control the direction of this power, thus you would be co-Creating with these perceived "other forces".

Thank you for asking that question Valtor, it helped to clarify things on my end too.

I would take GWV's wisdom to another level in that what he points out as creative and passive relates to the real definition of faith and will.

Faith is the hope that what you attempt or desire will manifest. This suggests lack of confidence and full knowledge.

Will is the attempt at the same with full confidence in the outcome because you are fully aware of the process and your ability.

Higher consciousness enables higher ability for this simple reason.

[godwide_void]

Will or willing something is the act of creative manifestation, and faith is passive manifestation, so yes, I think you could simplify it to that point. On on hand you are becoming a conscious Creator and are acting as one merged being with the Higher, on the other hand you are acting as a proxy while partially dependent upon the factor of outside forces handling whatever it is one desires, perhaps due to ignorance of the fact that the individual is already one with these forces or is aware of these forces and their unity with it but has not yet reached the level of understanding where one may be able to control the direction of this power, thus you would be co-Creating with these perceived "other forces".

Thank you for asking that question Valtor, it helped to clarify things on my end too.

I would take GWV's wisdom to another level in that what he points out as creative and passive relates to the real definition of faith and will.

Faith is the hope that what you attempt or desire will manifest. This suggests lack of confidence and full knowledge.

Will is the attempt at the same with full confidence in the outcome because you are fully aware of the process and your ability.

Higher consciousness enables higher ability for this simple reason.

YES! Thank you Shin'Ar, that is EXACTLY what I was trying to get across but you managed to express it in a much more cohesive and simpler manner.

[anagogy]

Most excellent... thought, Anagogy. Perhaps this is a way of considering Ra's statement regarding the mind containing all things.

Good point.

So we can see, from these examples, more clearly what thought really is. What we call "thought" is simply a gathering of attention on whatever is the object of that attention. It is, in other-words, simply a focus of attention.

Love this definition!

I would add that it is thought, or the faculty of the mind itself, which is creating the object. Without something which "thinks" it can stand apart from unity --- and divide unity into endless categories and sub-categories, and reflect/compare/contrast the resulting objects, and find identity in relationship to the objects ---- there are no objects. At least not an "object" that is independent of and separate from the All.

I would also agree with this assessment. And I appreciate your clear articulation of this very important and illuminating point.

When you think a thought, you see things in a certain way -- the way you have painted things in your mind through the direction of your focus. So a thought is kind of like an affirmation of how things are -- a statement about reality in other-words. Or, at least if you are thinking about "what is", in any-case. As Ra says, if you think about something in a general contemplative sense, it manifests else where, having no particular attachment to the energy field of the creator of said thought-form (16.14 if anyone is curious).

So we can further see what thought really is. Isn't it essentially just a statement about reality? Even when it is a "what if" thought, it is still a statement about a reality. You say, "What if (X) occurred? What would that reality look like?"

Now, what is a belief? Isn't it just a more consistent statement about reality? Could it be just a deeper and more habitual thought you keep thinking? And, what is will, if not just a more *conscious* statement/intention about reality?

When you "will" something, do you not intend that it be so? So will is more like making a conscious and deep statement about reality.

I essentially agree with everything you've written thus far and appreciate the light that you've shed for me, personally, on this matter. I love how you've woven attention, focus, thought, and will into a continuum of experience, differing only in degree.

A belief IS a "statement about reality".

I would be very interested to see how you incorporate 54.28
where Ra describes will as a desire which is "emanating from the awareness of inner light".

In the picture that you've painted, what is "awareness of inner light" and how does it fit into this pattern?

It's interesting how different words used in different contexts imply different things. In the aforementioned Ra quote, I would certainly not disagree with the description of will as a kind of desire. A desire is a motivating force, much in the same way that will is a motivating force, and the relationship seems quite apparent in this context.

I hope I haven't given the false impression that faith is totally and completely synonymous and congruent with will and that this is the end of the story. I fear that I have, and I must apologize for my lack of clear articulation on this point. Unfortunately, the plight of language is such that many words/definitions have overlapping characteristics with other words/definitions and also, these same words have yet still other characteristics that reach into places beyond the confines of those limited contextual boundaries.

This is such a circumstance.

From my point of view, I see the "inner-light" as our true self as pure infinite intelligence, or consciousness. To the degree that we balance the distortions within us that create the illusory appearance of a separate mind/body/spirit complex, the inner light that constitutes our true beingness can express more and more of itself/ourself until we have expanded to the broadest and most encompassing conscious perspective once again (that is to say, intelligent infinity).

This "inner light" is also will, from my perspective -- a creative principle. The more balanced, in tune, and clear we become with respect to the free flow of intelligent infinity, the more of this "will" can manifest as a motivating principle towards an even more rapid evolution.

You could describe this inner light in many different ways, depending on the context. You might call it "will", you might call it "faith", you might even call it "spiritual gravity" -- these all have various overlapping characteristics which relate to this ultimately indescribable inward coalescing and upward spiraling towards a more comprehensive expression of beingness with respect to infinite intelligence. We are basically channeling intelligent energy, and energy centers are simply the illusory manifestation of the narrowness or broadness of this channel through which this intelligence flows (or does not flow in some cases ).

The mind/body/spirit complex is a filter. Illusions cannot be without such a filter.

I cheered at everything till the connection to faith was made in this post. It feels like there is something lacking in this description, something needed to more adequately elucidate faith and its relationship and congruency with will.

You are absolutely right. I was less than clear on this point.

As I mentioned earlier, definitions are oftentimes less than laser specific. There are various overlapping characteristics, and then other characteristics that do not overlap.

The aspects of "faith" which overlap with "will" are, in my opinion, its motivating characteristics. They are both the funneling of intelligent energy from my perspective. Will focuses faith, and faith empowers the will. They feed off one another, synergistically. They are like brother and sister. They share a lot of the same genes, so to speak.

One does not occur without the other, even though they are not precisely identical.

From my vantage point, will, by necessity, involves belief (to some degree) in the efficacy of such will (else there would be no will).

Faith could be described as consciously chosen belief, which cannot occur without the will.

So maybe from this disorganized jumble of thoughts here, you can see how they are related from my vantage point.

Among the many ways I view faith, I tend to see it as has been previously described over the years: a "willing suspension of disbelief".

Willingly suspending disbelief could itself be called a "belief", but to me a belief has shape and form, name and identity --- a belief is something within the realm of the manifest, pertaining to the illusion.

Whereas faith is open and formless, mysterious and sacred, and beyond the illusion, or rather, a dismantler of illusion. It is that which transforms beliefs, not necessarily into higher belief (though certainly that too), but more so as that agent which renders belief as a secondary, derivative means of knowing the Self which already is.

That is an interesting distinction you make between belief and faith.

I like it.

Belief is the creation of illusion, and faith results in the dissolution of illusion.

It's like the same essential energy applied in opposite directions. It's a good distinction. It fits.

Faith is the direct, immediate experience of Self which needs no belief, as I perceive these things. If you already are who you are, that being the one infinite Creator, whether in third density or seventh, no belief will create a true representation of who you are. Only through the release of belief does the self merge into the self in the infinite.

You touched upon something key here, which I find most interesting -- the true Self, which does not require belief. I agree whole-heartedly. We use different words to talk about it, but I can see the core is the same. Rather than use the word faith, as you do, which, for me connotes a kind of belief, I have often used the made up word "knowing-ness" to describe this "belief" (or raw intuition) that is beyond "belief", if that makes any sense.

Perhaps faith itself has a spectrum of experience, from simple, "I believe I can do this or I trust that this thing which has not been achieved/accomplished/seen is achievable/accomplishable/knowable", to, "I am all that there is, I am the Creator".

Yes, again, I agree with you here.

As Ra says:

42.11 Ra: I am Ra. There is but one technique for this growing or nurturing of will and faith, and that is the focusing of the attention. The attention span of those you call children is considered short. The spiritual attention span of most of your peoples is that of the child. Thus it is a matter of wishing to become able to collect one’s attention and hold it upon the desired programming.

This, when continued, strengthens the will. The entire activity can only occur when there exists faith that an outcome of this discipline is possible.

Do you see the relationship? They are all the focus of consciousness -- the focus of attention. Pure faith, or pure will, is simply the non-contradicted focus of consciousness. In the absence of contradiction, the statement about reality is NOT negated, and if the faith is pure the manifestation is also pure. The reason thoughts don't always manifest is particularly do to the fact that they are not as intense or defined as beliefs are. They aren't as "sure" of themselves, in a sense.

Well said!

And actually this ties into what I was writing above. I link the "suspension of disbelief" to your statement about the "non-contradicted focus of consciousness". Faith informs and enables the will by saying that this particular willed activity/desire IS possible. The purer the faith, as you say, the less negation, the less "no" function, the less belief in illusory limitations of the great Illusion, the more the will is empowered to do that which it sets out to do, results/outcomes notwithstanding.

Yes, when you become conscious to the fact that you are dreaming, your conscious and willful control of said dream gradually expands until you finally awaken altogether.

Lucid dreaming is fun!

Although, I must say that I've noticed (and if anybody else has noticed this as well, I'm curious to hear) that the more illusion I release, and the more conscious and powerful creator of my own catalyst I become, the less and less desire I have to exercise such power, because it seems you come into more and more of an awareness that there is nothing that you want to change, because it is perfect already.

This is why pure faith moves mountains. It is a pure focusing of intelligent energy.

Anagogy, this verse came to mind when reading your post. I'd be most interested in your take on this quote:

52.11 "Questioner: Is there then, from the point of view of an individual who wishes to follow the service-to-others path, anything of importance other than disciplines of personality, knowledge of self, and strengthening of will?

Ra: I am Ra. This is technique. This is not the heart. Let us examine the heart of evolution.

Let us remember that we are all one. This is the great learning/teaching. In this unity lies love. This is a great learn/teaching. In this unity lies light. This is the fundamental teaching of all planes of existence in materialization. Unity, love, light, and joy; this is the heart of evolution of the spirit.

The second-ranking lessons are learn/taught in meditation and in service. At some point the mind/body/spirit complex is so smoothly activated and balanced by these central thoughts or distortions that the techniques you have mentioned become quite significant. However, the universe, its mystery unbroken, is one. Always begin and end in the Creator, not in technique."

Specifically, what do you think Ra means by saying that the entity is so "smoothly activated and balanced by these central thoughts or distortions".

I think what Ra is articulating here is that the process of balancing, or releasing distortion necessarily results in the dissolution of illusions. The biggest, and most persistent, illusion of all is that separation is A) possible and B) has occurred. The experience of separation is directly proportional to the degree of belief invested in it. This belief is not a binary situation where you either believe it or you don't. It's a continuum. Moving from the belief, or thought, of separation to the thought, or focus, of oneness is the base or foundation by which all the rest of the distortions are predicated upon. However, the thought of oneness is not quite there, either, as it is essentially just a mental object, but it serves as a framework for the true work, which is the *unfocusing* from all thoughts -- which results in actual awareness of unity or infinity.

The disciplines of the personality are the icing on the cake, as it were -- the refinement of the faith in unity which becomes infinitely honed over the course of the densities, purifying and consecrating the creative will in the process. This is the work of polarization, or the increase in ability to enjoy a higher intensity of the inner light.

Do you see this as fitting into what you've written in this post? That being that an entity thinks about unity, love, light, and joy so frequently, thoroughly, and with such intensity that an, as you said, affirmation regarding the nature of reality is made, an affirmation which happens to, in the purer entity, correspond with reality?

Yes, I do see this as fitting into what I posted. With every release of distortion/illusion/resistance which is simply the turning away from the focus upon same, the consciousness naturally becomes more and more aware of those harmonious principles you've mentioned which extend from the reality of infinite unity.

As Ra states so eloquently:

4.20 One of the primal distortions of the Law of One is that of healing. Healing occurs when a mind/body/spirit complex realizes, deep within itself, the Law of One; that is, that there is no disharmony, no imperfection; that all is complete and whole and perfect. Thus, the intelligent infinity within this mind/body/spirit complex re-forms the illusion of body, mind, or spirit to a form congruent with the Law of One. The healer acts as energizer or catalyst for this completely individual process.

This ties into Ra's four exercises. There it seems they say that to direct the mind to think about, or see, or contemplate, or meditate upon what is already there – i.e., love – is to make love manifest in the awareness and the experience.

In both cases (of being “smoothy activated’ and “seeing love in awareness and understanding”), will is enabled by faith to maintain a certain focus. That focus - sustained and negated less and less - creates that which it seeks. Or rather, uncreates the illusions which obscure that which is already there, allowing the entity to see/know/experience love, light, unity, and joy.

Yes, that is essentially how I see it as well.

I’m not sure if I’m getting anywhere, my thoughts aren’t terribly organized. Your post made the hamster wheel turn.

I appreciate your thoughts, and questions, greatly as they help me to refine and articulate my own even more clearly.

There is nothing quite so satisfying as when you feel a little bit more illusion dissolve as you make a break through in clarity and awareness!

Thank you, Anagogy.

You are always welcome, and thank you as well!

[AnthroHeart]

Although, I must say that I've noticed (and if anybody else has noticed this as well, I'm curious to hear) that the more illusion I release, and the more conscious and powerful creator of my own catalyst I become, the less and less desire I have to exercise such power, because it seems you come into more and more of an awareness that there is nothing that you want to change, because it is perfect already.

This is a pretty profound statement. I find as I go on I have less desire to create something else. The only thing I desire to change is to continually increase in the experiencing the Love of Creator. Though also there is the desire of the dissolution of the illusion. But at a level that's right for me. But this dissolution seems to happen without me really trying. While it's subtle, I become more aware that the process of Creation just is, rather than something we try to achieve. It happens by opening the heart. There is some Indigo involved, but I don't really try to use that. It just happens auto-magically.

Godwide, would you say that it is the indigo ray that can accelerate the dissolution of the illusion? I find that the increase of my heart chakra keeps me stable when things begin to happen that might otherwise freak me out.

[Shin'Ar]

Although, I must say that I've noticed (and if anybody else has noticed this as well, I'm curious to hear) that the more illusion I release, and the more conscious and powerful creator of my own catalyst I become, the less and less desire I have to exercise such power, because it seems you come into more and more of an awareness that there is nothing that you want to change, because it is perfect already.

This is a pretty profound statement. I find as I go on I have less desire to create something else. The only thing I desire to change is to continually increase in the experiencing the Love of Creator. Though also there is the desire of the dissolution of the illusion. But at a level that's right for me. But this dissolution seems to happen without me really trying. While it's subtle, I become more aware that the process of Creation just is, rather than something we try to achieve. It happens by opening the heart. There is some Indigo involved, but I don't really try to use that. It just happens auto-magically.

Godwide, would you say that it is the indigo ray that can accelerate the dissolution of the illusion? I find that the increase of my heart chakra keeps me stable when things begin to happen that might otherwise freak me out.

What I have found is that the farther away you get from delusion, the closer you get to the reasons for the delusion in the first place.

many have left their religions in pursuit of truths they could not find there, and upon finding truth realized that it was there in their religion all the time but was just not being properly conveyed.

There is a process of teaching that goes on in our human society, that is governed by higher powers, that understand the need to reveal truth to the human in degrees of opportunity based upon individual growth. There is no one set standard.

But when one reaches higher understanding and begins to see thew folly of the right hand path, they run from it as quickly as they can, and the father away they run, the closer they get back to it again.

What does that remind you of?

[Confused]

The faculty of Will initiates a project and the emotion of Faith sustains it, in the face of hurdles. Much like what we have in real life. Let us say for example, Steve Jobs. He decided (or willed himself) to create exciting new products for customers and worked on that decision through his faith in his own abilities and that of his colleagues, despite arduous situations and conditions. The faith carried and sustained the initial abstract will (or the act of volition) to a state of tangible completion. I think Will and Faith are are two sides of a singular coin, the coin of turning into the archetype of the Magus, within the matrix of the One Infinite Creator's creation.

[godwide_void]

Gary, anagogy (I originally said welcome to the forums but saw you've been a member since '09... so I change this to say, post more! ), that was a very illuminating and clarifying discourse between you both. Gary's statement of will being enabled by faith is a very powerful and accurate perception and this statement by you also stood out:

You touched upon something key here, which I find most interesting -- the true Self, which does not require belief. I agree whole-heartedly. We use different words to talk about it, but I can see the core is the same. Rather than use the word faith, as you do, which, for me connotes a kind of belief, I have often used the made up word "knowing-ness" to describe this "belief" (or raw intuition) that is beyond "belief", if that makes any sense.

This discussion reminded me of the words of Nietzsche:

What then is truth? A mobile army of metaphors, metonyms, and anthropomorphism -- inshort, a sum of human relations, which have been enhanced, transposed, and embellished poetically and rhetorically, and which after long use seem firm, canonical, and obligatory to a people: truths are illusions about which one has forgotten that is what they are; metaphors which are worn out and without sensuous power; coins which have lost their pictures and now matter only as metal, no longer as coins.

We believe that we know something about the things themselves when we speak of trees, colors, snow, and flowers; and yet we possess nothing but metaphors for things — metaphors which correspond in no way to the original entities.

In my Philosophy course at college the work we've been studying is The Birth of Tragedy which makes the distinction between Dionysic and Apolloniac (or Socratic) approaches to art. Essentially, Dionysic is the pure undifferentiated experience, the formless, that which IS and may be perceived as "unintelligible" when considered from the viewpoint of aesthetic Socratism which states that a thing must be intelligible in order for it to be beautiful. It is the "thing" without any attempts at chiseling away at the thing with reason. The Apolloniac or Socratic is the application of reasoning to understanding a thing, and in doing so setting up a barrier which filters and carves down one's base feelings and emotional instinctive reaction to the thing and transposing it into a logical format. In doing so one inevitably ends up distorting the thing one attempts to make sense of by applying various angles dictated by rational processing. It would be like being at a concert, where the guy enjoying the experience and losing himself in the ecstatic throes of the event is the Dionysic, the experiencing, and the fellow in the back just observing and conceptualizing is the Socratic. Ultimately both are experiencing the same thing, yet one does so through feeling it, unbiased and undistorted, while the other is trying to make sense of the experience from an outside perspective.

This same paradigm applies to our present discussion of the faculties of faith and will. Now, every perspective offered here is phenomenal and we've successfully given form to the formless so to speak, but ultimately faith and will are Dionysic in that it is a pure feeling, one that doesn't need words to justify or make sense of their being experienced; reasoning and rationalizing these concepts doesn't do them justice no matter how much we are able to logically break them down. Come to think of it, applying the term "feelings" to them is also distorting them in a way since we don't necessarily "feel" will or faith so they are moreso different modes of focusing one's innermost desire through two distinct albeit very blurred and overlapping sets of characteristics particular to these modes of thought, so to avoid my going in circles it'd just be easier to say that these are mental formations bordering on volitional formations as faith and will are dependent upon and are the funnel for the intentions one holds.

@Gemini Wolf: You asked

Godwide, would you say that it is the indigo ray that can accelerate the dissolution of the illusion? I find that the increase of my heart chakra keeps me stable when things begin to happen that might otherwise freak me out.

Unfortunately I wouldn't be able to give you a suitable answer for that as the "indigo ray" is a concept that has no bearing on my experience or the paradigms which shape my particular perspectives. If by "indigo ray accelerating the dissolution of the illusion" you are implying that through establishing a more conscious and cognizant connection to the divine essence which pervades our experience, the mystery in which we only experience indirectly and in a variety of manners that it chooses to reveal Itself in, that one is able to shift their perception of the world from a set, physical material realm to that of being a holographic construct in which our true nature is obfuscated, then yes, I would agree. Your heart ray, or the faculty of love, has nothing to do with seeing the world for the illusion it is. Rather, its primary use is as a tool or focal point which we filter ourselves through as we navigate through the illusion and interact with the various contents of the illusion. The indigo ray/illumined awareness is the magnifying glass or microscope, and the heart ray/love I would say is that which gives shape to and determines what the one holding the magnifying glass' reaction will be to the revealed subject the glass is magnifying.

Shin'Ar: What I have found is that the farther away you get from delusion, the closer you get to the reasons for the delusion in the first place.

A good context this could be viewed in is with an "unstable" relationship, in which while in the relationship one might be "blind to the flaws" that are present, yet once one has stepped outside and re-evaluates it one begins to see what those flaws were exactly, and the insights of why and how those flaws pushed one away arises as well as examining one's own relation to the flaws and the aspects of personality which feel aversion towards these flaws. Once one becomes aware that there is delusion and starts to understand what about it categorizes it as delusion the natural progression ends up becoming seeking what is not delusion, what is its antithesis, and how one approached the previous gradually disintegrating delusion will directly determine and define how one may relate to the non-delusion.

[Shin'Ar]

Standing at the beach enjoying the wind and the saltspray in your face, while your friend, inside the cottage nearby, watches your hair blowing and the sails on the boats filling, and cannot see the force that moves these things.

[Plenum]

Gary, anagogy (I originally said welcome to the forums but saw you've been a member since '09... so I change this to say, post more! ), that was a very illuminating and clarifying discourse between you both. Gary's statement of will being enabled by faith is a very powerful and accurate perception and this statement by you also stood out:

hey, great post Godwide. I've really been enjoying your writings of late; you seem to have found a rhythm and flow to your language that is commensurate with your abilities in the musical realm. The stuff just floats off the page, and is brimming with connected ideas.

really impressed brother!

[godwide_void]

Standing at the beach enjoying the wind and the saltspray in your face, while your friend, inside the cottage nearby, watches your hair blowing and the sails on the boats filling, and cannot see the force that moves these things.

Ah, relaxing imagery that just invoked. But yes, this example is precisely what the point is.

---

Gary, anagogy (I originally said welcome to the forums but saw you've been a member since '09... so I change this to say, post more! ), that was a very illuminating and clarifying discourse between you both. Gary's statement of will being enabled by faith is a very powerful and accurate perception and this statement by you also stood out:

hey, great post Godwide. I've really been enjoying your writings of late; you seem to have found a rhythm and flow to your language that is commensurate with your abilities in the musical realm. The stuff just floats off the page, and is brimming with connected ideas.

really impressed brother!

I thank you for the kind words my fellow brethren of the void. Yes, I have been entering some particularly deep stages as of late in regards to further enhancing the connection to my Higher Aspect. Be aware that for quite some time now it has not been the person at this keyboard who has been communicating with you all. I usually never ponder upon what I'm going to write beforehand... the words often seem to write themselves.

[AnthroHeart]

I thank you for the kind words my fellow brethren of the void. Yes, I have been entering some particularly deep stages as of late in regards to further enhancing the connection to my Higher Aspect. Be aware that for quite some time now it has not been the person at this keyboard who has been communicating with you all. I usually never ponder upon what I'm going to write beforehand... the words often seem to write themselves.

I'm glad to share a reality with you where you are able to further enhance the connection to your higher aspect. Your statement "for quite some time now it has not been the person at this keyboard who has been communicating with you all" rings true for me in more ways than one. I realize I'm not the person I was a moment ago. But also, I can understand when I'm writing and it seems to not be coming from me, but from a higher source.

The fractal is beautiful as it unfolds.

[Confused]

hey, great post Godwide. I've really been enjoying your writings of late; you seem to have found a rhythm and flow to your language that is commensurate with your abilities in the musical realm. The stuff just floats off the page, and is brimming with connected ideas.

Very true! Amen to that

---

Oh, by the way, Godwide's music is some of the best that I have heard. Very beautiful for the potential it carries. I am sure it ranks very high in the court of the ONE, for the true passion of love and wisdom it carries.

[godwide_void]

I thank you for the kind words my fellow brethren of the void. Yes, I have been entering some particularly deep stages as of late in regards to further enhancing the connection to my Higher Aspect. Be aware that for quite some time now it has not been the person at this keyboard who has been communicating with you all. I usually never ponder upon what I'm going to write beforehand... the words often seem to write themselves.

I'm glad to share a reality with you where you are able to further enhance the connection to your higher aspect. Your statement "for quite some time now it has not been the person at this keyboard who has been communicating with you all" rings true for me in more ways than one. I realize I'm not the person I was a moment ago. But also, I can understand when I'm writing and it seems to not be coming from me, but from a higher source.

The fractal is beautiful as it unfolds.

This is the reality which is best reflective and indicative of your true beingness and how you vibrate at this moment. Your entire life has now culminated in you being upon a timeline where you are being made aware of the possibility of enhancing the connection to your Higher Aspect. I am here to show you that such is capable to an unimagineable degree and for you, this perhaps reflects your own inner knowledge of the truth of this and this being a goal that is closer within your reach than you would think.

Yes, I agree with your last sentiment. Even the smallest creation, be it a flower or a small pond, reflects the unwavering majestic perfection of the One.

---

hey, great post Godwide. I've really been enjoying your writings of late; you seem to have found a rhythm and flow to your language that is commensurate with your abilities in the musical realm. The stuff just floats off the page, and is brimming with connected ideas.

Very true! Amen to that

---

Oh, by the way, Godwide's music is some of the best that I have heard. Very beautiful for the potential it carries. I am sure it ranks very high in the court of the ONE, for the true passion of love and wisdom it carries.

Truly your words warm my heart and I feel blessed that you would feel as such towards my works. I know now that my goal of serving the Infinite through my music has been successful as indicative of your regards. Thank you, my dear friend.

[Adonai One]

The ability to accept emotional resistance as one makes an effort is the essence of will. In other words, having faith in the task in the face of resistance enables will to become more and more potent. The negative polarity will repress and become unaware of the resistance. The positive polarity will embrace it until peace is found.