Spiritual implications/reasons for gender identity crisis

[outerheaven]

One huge problem surrounding this subject is the "Social Justice Warrior" mob-mentality group-think that seeks to control what and how people think about it. That will only lead to suppression of actual thoughts and feelings and polarize the issue for the worse -- it will never lead to a true understanding and acceptance.

I'm all for acceptance. And that cuts both ways.

I am not for controlling what people think, telling them they are guilty of "wrong-think," or ferociously dictating what terms may or may not be used when discussing an issue. There are emotional triggers all over this issue, which sever the ability to have a rational discussion.

This is not directed at anyone in this thread in particular, rather a theme I've noticed that makes any discussion of this topic a veritable mine-field.

In regards to the OP: personally, I don't understand why people should feel that they aren't already what they think they 'should be' -- and think that altering their physical manifestation is something important -- but whatever, it's their choice and their experience.

I agree that this is a strong catalyst for accepting others. In this case I truly don't understand the decision to alter one's gender, but I also understand that I don't need to, as long as I love/accept the person regardless of what they look like or however they identify. (Which ... circularly ... is why I don't understand the need to alter the body!... I suppose, then, my obstacle is not letting my failure to grasp or "approve" their reasoning to get in the way of my acceptance.)

[Reaper]

i'm bisexual but - & sorry if this is TMI - i feel more attracted to women when i'm, uh, near my period. also in my later years i feel more attracted to ladies.

however romantic attraction is a separate issue. that, i believe, is a soul thing. my romantic attraction to men has always been a constant unwavering thing, but physically/sexually i fluctuate with both sexes.

I can actually identify with this quite a lot. I'm at least bi-curious in the sense that I often find other women sexually attractive. I think the female body is very beautiful, and feminine energy is refreshing. I went through a period where I was sure I was gay because of a burning crush I had on a girl at my church, only to realize I still lusted after men as well.

However, when it comes down to choosing a mate, I can only go with male. I could feasibly engage in physical acts with another woman and enjoy it quite a bit, but there is something that male energy fulfills in an actual partnership that I can't do without. Even if I was with a very manly woman, something, and I'm not entirely sure what, would be missing. I'm not saying this is the appropriate way to be, only that it's how I seem to have programmed myself. 

I have a female lover that appears often in my dreams. I eventually met this person in real life. The second we met we instantly recognized each other on some deep soul level, and when she showed me pictures of her younger self I realized it was the girl from my dreams. We both felt a strong sexual attraction toward one another because we both clearly remembered being mates in a previous existence- one in which I was a man. We discussed a possible sexual relationship but ultimately we are both heterosexually programmed. This small melting of the veil really opened my eyes to how complex the sexual process can be. I find it nothing short of fascinating.

[Bluebell]

it's interesting, i don't like being the girl in a relationship so in order to date a guy i would have to be a guy. i don't know why but i bristle at the thought of being a girl, in a relationship, unless i'm a girl with another girl or a boy with another boy. i can be "the girl" in either kind of same sex-relationship. but i need that equality.

[Billy]

If I were to express some of the thoughts and feeling I have on such issues as this one I would no doubt be labelled a bigoted monster as Yera described.  It is a great source of insecurity and shame for me and I am having a tough time navigating thoughts and emotions that would be labelled by society as wrong, unethical, racist, sexist etc.  Seeing someone slammed for expressing themselves with the purpose of trying to understand something and gain greater clarity really gets my blood boiling, but once again I fully admit that this is an internal issue more than anything.  I'm probably being hypocritical and narrow minded in one way or another and for that I apologize.  This is a great source of catalyst for me, just as I imagine it is for many others.   

I haven't "slammed someone for expressing themselves with the purpose of trying to understand..."

As politely as possible I explained to a person (for eg): that for them to say "fiasco" "mutilation" "mental instability"...

"is considered disrespectful and insensitive"

if I can't give that feedback here I may as well leave.

Instead of a polite reply - I was told I "reeked" of "insecurity" and was sarcastically told "so sorry I offended your brittle being"

I offered to share links to help Jeremy, which he chose to ignore and continued to ask his questions to non trans members about trans peoples spirituality.... and to be rude/dismissive to me... yet he's getting the backing of other members here?

 :exclamation:

Splash

My comment wasn't intended as a personal insult towards you Splash, sorry if it came across as such.  I was more so just venting my frustration at the suffocation and repression I feel, which outerheaven described quite well, when reading about and contemplating such sensitive topics as this.  As I mentioned in my previous post, it is an internal thing and comes from a place of personal insecurity and shame for having thoughts and feeling which are labelled as 'wrong' and mean I am not a decent human being.  It's really starting to dawn on me just how complex human beings are and I believe that there is a lot of forgiveness in order.  I really do try see things more harmoniously and compassionately but it is a slow and vulnerable process.  For what it's worth, I do think you raised some valuable and relevant points.  

[Minyatur]

I've been told you cannot truly know you're not gay without trying.. Well I sure as hell can't picture myself having attraction for another dude.

As a girl I wouldn't mind, I've probably incarnated as a girl a few times, but as a guy it's just not working in my mind lol.

[Bring4th_Moderator]

Dear friends,

This is a sensitive topic subject to a lot of debate in recent times and it’s natural that there may be some gaps in communication and understanding. This is just a request for all members to attempt to approach discussion from a standpoint of respect, compassion, and attempt at understanding. If it seems that there is a miscommunication lack of perception, please attempt to bridge the gap so we all may move forward in understanding together. If there are heated feelings due to these misunderstandings and miscommunications, please take a step back and reflect upon the conversation, attempting to process the emotional charge and see things from a perspective where you can move forward with respect and compassion.

Discussion about the spiritual implications of gender identity is allowed. Discussion about the discussion, pointing out what may be seen as offensive to the transgender community or how certain approaches may be ineffective or counter-productive, is allowed. Discussion about how that might limit the discussion is allowed. These are all valid perspectives that may be discussed and agreed or disagreed with.

However, discussing a specific person and making an assessment of their own character and distortions is not allowed, per the first guideline:

1) Respect. Compassion. Loving-kindness. Empathy. Trust. Goodwill. Desire to serve. Embracing each other. Opening our heart. Participants are asked to keep the thought in the forefront of their minds at all times that each on this forum IS the Creator. Please keep communication respectful at all times and in all ways. The participant may disagree to the bone with an idea without personally attacking the author of the idea. Please remember that we are all here to expand our knowledge, deepen our understanding, and support one another by reflecting our divinity to each other. We are One being -- we are not here to forget the real.

As such, please keep the discussion about the ideas within the posts and not the posters themselves, and please attempt to move forward from all disagreement and misunderstanding in respect and an open heart.

In love and light,
The Bring4th Mod Team

[Lighthead]

@Yera

Off-topic comment: It's actually funny that you say that you resonate towards masculine energy because I actually sensed that you were male before I knew. I'm really good at picking up vibes and that's what I felt. Even though I'm male, I actually feel that I resonate with feminine energy. I'm extremely right-brained. But I also get quite emotional and sensitive and the like for a male.

Or maybe it's on-topic. It's just that this thread has devolved into incivility.

[Shawnna]

{snip}

What I'm getting at with my words however harsh they may be is attempting to allow you to realize that they are just words. Their intended effects is purely based upon your emotional reaction to them. Without your reaction,  the words are no different than any other word. This is where mental and physical security and confidence in one's whole self resides. By being insulted and upset at these words,  to me,  means that one hasn't  fully accepted ones self because if they were,  such words would have no impact.

The language (written or verbal) we use to communicate with each other reflects our emotional and spiritual maturity.

It really is that simple.

There is no excuse for being unkind, period.

[Minyatur]

Talking about other's maturity also tend to say a lot about your own maturity.

Yeah that was immature but I do enjoy being immature.

[Jeremy]

{snip}

What I'm getting at with my words however harsh they may be is attempting to allow you to realize that they are just words. Their intended effects is purely based upon your emotional reaction to them. Without your reaction,  the words are no different than any other word. This is where mental and physical security and confidence in one's whole self resides. By being insulted and upset at these words,  to me,  means that one hasn't  fully accepted ones self because if they were,  such words would have no impact.

The language (written or verbal) we use to communicate with each other reflects our emotional and spiritual maturity.  

It really is that simple.

There is no excuse for being unkind, period.

But see that's what I'm trying to convey is that the only reason they feel unkind is because of ones emotional reaction to the catalyst being presented.  Now,  my directed personal insult was against the guidelines here so that was too far I guess.  As for all else that I have said,  I stand by all of it.


If one finds that they feel hurt or any negative emotion after a set of words are spoken or typed,  this is where the lesson resides. This is where one needs to seek within and ask ones self why they felt this in the first place. It's how Ra spoke of consciously analyzing ones responses based upon biases one has set up for ones self within their respective incarnation.

To put it plainly,  this type of honesty from an other self could be exactly why this other self incarnated in the first place. Could I be wrong?  Most definitely. But what if I'm right and that other self needed that proverbial slap in the face to allow them to realize what they have been refusing to recognize within?

That is where honesty comes in. It's not of malice intent, at least not from me. It's the recognition or intuition to see that there is work that an other could potentially benefit from. Instead of the coddling that runs rampant here, I choose to be more blunt than most. Its also where I've come to respect zenmaster even more for what he was trying to do here. Everyone thinks compassion is trying to be nice and not hurt the others feelings but that's enabling further detrimental emotions to be harbored and I cannot be a part of that as it goes against who I am. 

[Spaced]

So one has no responsibility for what they say and how it will be received? It's all on the listener to just take it in and not be offended?

If you want honesty then here you go. You are using bigoted language and then defending your right to be a bigot. Sure you have that right, but we also have a right to call you out on it. Maybe you are the one who needs a slap in the face. What service are you offering here by belittling things that trans people have been fighting for for decades like basic respect for their identity?

Maybe you should seek within and ask why you have such a strong emotional reaction against referring to transgendered folks by their preferred pronouns and the idea that they don't have a disorder that needs to be fixed. After all, Ra spoke of consciously analyzing ones responses based upon biases one has set up for ones self within their respective incarnation.

[Jeremy]

So one has no responsibility for what they say and how it will be received? It's all on the listener to just take it in and not be offended?

If you want honesty then here you go. You are using bigoted language and then defending your right to be a bigot. Sure you have that right, but we also have a right to call you out on it. Maybe you are the one who needs a slap in the face. What service are you offering here by belittling things that trans people have been fighting for for decades like basic respect for their identity?

Maybe you should seek within and ask why you have such a strong emotional reaction against referring to transgendered folks by their preferred pronouns and the idea that they don't have a disorder that needs to be fixed. After all, Ra spoke of consciously analyzing ones responses based upon biases one has set up for ones self within their respective incarnation.

Awesome some honesty   

See I can accept your opinion and still disagree with it and actually be perfectly fine with what you've said. Its called constructive criticism and always something for me to think about so I appreciate it.  

Nowhere in my mind did I belittle anyone. The terms I've used are from a medical standpoint. To mutilate the body is to remove or dramatically alter it's original form so something as simple as a breast augmentation would be considered. It also means something entirely different which could be construed as negative but that's where ones own biases present themselves. 

I made it clear that my intentions were not from a point of malice and purposeful hurt. This would be entirely different if I would have said something like they were an abomination and have no right to do something like that. I made it clear way back in my original post that I fully accept whatever one does in their life and I was trying to understand the spiritual implications of I all. 

If one took it another way,  I apologized for it but would ever take it back because I was coming from a point of fascination and curiousory and nothing else. If you took it another way,  that's not my problem.  

[Splash]

^j^

I haven't had the time or energy today to get centred and calm to give a clear reply to several new things being said here...

but I have some spare time now so will have a try:

Upon reflection, I could have been less "assertive" in my first post (perhaps) but when words come close to (potential) vilification of already marginalised, misunderstood people; I felt I needed to be direct with the OP, and what to me certainly seemed toxic assumptions and questions.

LGBTQ people are assaulted, even murdered for their 'difference', they commit suicide to escape bullying... rejection by family, classmates, friends... I feel deep concern on this issue.

I think I understand Jeremy's premise... why he posted in the first place.
So he can find the answers to his transgender questions through the B4 community.

I pointed out why I think this is flawed logic/researching - but I never said a person can't have fascination, interest, questions, ideas... - it's part of human nature to have questions and ideas...

I won't repeat here what first I said, but it's ironic that Jeremy is now writing defending his bluntness and saying he shouldn't have to "coddle" but has reacted so strongly to what he perceives (as does Outerheaven and Yera) as me telling him what to do.  

My perception is that, as politely as possible I explained to a person that for them to write "fiasco" "mutilation" "mental instability"...

"is considered disrespectful and insensitive".

However, instead of a polite reply - I was told I "reeked" of "insecurity" and was sarcastically told "so sorry I offended your brittle being"

These were directly personal insults and aggression, - and I felt it was valid to report to mods straight away.

But instead I wrote:

"right... you don't like being shown where/when you're being insensitive

so you reply in a snide passive/aggressive way

I won't take your bait and respond in kind - instead - if you speak disrespectfully to me again, I will report it as a breach of forum rules."

This is not me "scolding Jeremy like he was a "child" - but me defending myself and having every right to do so. I was still not causing Jeremy the direct inconvenience of being reported to the mods, instead, making sure he knew I respect myself and cautioning him not to continue being abusive.

That he now is defending his attitude on this thread as excellent personal examples of directness/ bluntness, 'truthfulness' - is quite comic, and very ironic.

I also said at that time:

"why do you assume there are no transgender people with a spiritual/metaphysical understanding?

why do you assume anyone on Bring4th has this specific spiritual knowledge?"

2 valid questions which I meant sincerely.

and when writing:

"- someone will confront you about this aspect of your character one day (arrogance/assuming the 'right' to discuss/understand marginalised peoples lives without seeking their input) - and their interaction with you won't be as polite as my well intentioned feedback...)"  - I wanted to give Jeremy a 'heads up' that many other online communities would give him far more defensive/protective 'feedback'.

As to a transgender persons reactions? ... they'd have been very disturbed by Jeremy's ideas and the words he used...
(I know, because I shared thie OP with trans friends.)

Jeremy wrote: "LOL I couldn't care less if someone was rude to me or not because I'm secure enough in my own body to not worry about trivial notions like insecurity. I'm short and commonly get mistaken for another race and it bothers me not."

Yay.. I'm glad for you... but that's not everyone's experience.

"Considering I don't know of anyone who is transgender,  my first place to ask such a spiritual question is here."

Fair enough.. and I replied with my ideas... from what I've been told trans people prefer.

They prefer to be asked rather than have us assume.

At this point Yera wrote: "I do not think that questioning the biological, cultural, emotional and spiritual factors that contribute to gender and sexual identity is at all insensitive."

I agree, I wasn't saying it was. I was saying we need to ask the people it pertains to. They're the people to ask about trans spirituality first. It's being polite. Otherwise imo it's a bunch of non trans chatting back and forth making assumptions.

(Never mind that "mutilation" and mental instability" were descriptions included in the original question.)

Yera continued: "......I feel that in many cases the imbalance lies on both sides of the issue, and that those who identify with some alternative form of gender or sexuality can be just as judgmental, self-righteous, defensive and persecutory as those who don't."

Yes I agree.

"Because I am heterosexual and cisgender, using my logic to try to understand another state of being makes me some sort of bigoted monster, and asking questions makes me insensitive?"

No.. and I wasn't saying that.

"Yeah, that is just childish. There is a huge difference between someone denouncing a lifestyle, and someone who lacks political correctness in their questions simply because they are ignorant. Compassion, patience and acceptance is needed toward those who are seeking to understand as well."

Yes, I agree. If the OP wasn't so disturbingly worded I'd probably never have replied on trans friends behalf.

"Understanding the factors that contribute to one's state of being is beneficial, regardless of whether one uses that understanding to change themselves, or simply to accept themselves the way they are with a more informed perspective. It is also a good opportunity to evaluate the way we perceive gender and sexuality as a cultural whole, and how that definition may be changing as the planet changes. "

I totally agree.

Then Folk Love writes: "If I were to express some of the thoughts and feeling I have on such issues as this one I would no doubt be labelled a bigoted monster as Yera described.  It is a great source of insecurity and shame for me and I am having a tough time navigating thoughts and emotions that would be labelled by society as wrong, unethical, racist, sexist etc.  Seeing someone slammed for expressing themselves with the purpose of trying to understand something and gain greater clarity really gets my blood boiling, but once again I fully admit that this is an internal issue more than anything.  I'm probably being hypocritical and narrow minded in one way or another and for that I apologize.  This is a great source of catalyst for me, just as I imagine it is for many others."

(I'll talk about my reply to this in a minute.)

Then Jeremy writes: "I'm glad there are those that can understand my intent on these questions. If I worded them in an insensitive way, I'm not too sure what to say other than I'm sorry but I'm not sure if it's my issue or theirs. My intuition keeps driving me towards a greater meaning of such a drastic catalyst than simply because people have always felt a certain way. If something mysterious on the inside is defying all biologically internal and external evidence to the contrary, it points to one of two solutions. Its psychological or its spiritual because there's nothing left on the inside that would determine such a conflict.
That is where my fascination resides. The logic mind that I've been bound to for so long prior to this awakening would have tended to lean towards some deep seated emotional trauma as the cause but the spiritualist in me now believes it's a cross incarnational breakthrough. These other selves could very well be capable of advanced levels of magic within themselves due to the potential thinning of the veil in front of their eyes. Or they simply could be so dependent upon their prior incarnations, they are seeking to find the comfort they had always had within another gender. I truly don't know so the questions arose."

I understand this expression of Jeremy's wondering/questioning, and I agree. (It's a less toxic way of expressing his original post.)


okay: then I reply to Folk Love: "I haven't "slammed someone for expressing themselves with the purpose of trying to understand..."

As politely as possible I explained to a person (for eg): that for them to say "fiasco" "mutilation" "mental instability"...

"is considered disrespectful and insensitive"

if I can't give that feedback here I may as well leave.

Instead of a polite reply - I was told I "reeked" of "insecurity" and was sarcastically told "so sorry I offended your brittle being"

I offered to share links to help Jeremy, which he chose to ignore and continued to ask his questions to non trans members about trans peoples spirituality.... and to be rude/dismissive to me... yet he's getting the backing of other members here?"


To which Jeremy writes back:  "Uh no,  looking back I don't see any links that I ignored."

Because I offered to provide them if you wanted. You hadn't replied to the offer of links.

"I snapped back at you because you automatically came off as defensive and snippy and accusatory because my remarks could be construed at demeaning."

Yep - and boy did you "snap back" - as to me being "defensive".. uh YES. Gender reassignment surgery is a GODSEND for many transgender. Not a "mutilation" (!)

" I'm of the honesty camp over compassion camp."

Yet, I can't be honest with you - or I'm being "brittle", defensive, etc (!)

"If you have an issue with my remarks however disrespectful they may be,  that's your issue to come to terms with. If words have such meaning to you that you will be offended and actually upset,  that's your issue not mine."

aaaah- uuum good luck with this philosophy - as you go through life.... (!)

" Actually this is more about honesty than compassion. Its not compassion as much as coddling fragile mentalities."

Woah ! talk about "the pot calling the kettle black". I didn't 'coddle' you, you had a dummy spit and here we are still trying to find some sensible understanding !

"If I came off as insensitive,  there's a better way to go about it. Instead you decide to scold me like a child which I  will respond in an equally abrasive and honest manner because however mean it may feel,  there's honesty and love in my intentions. They just don't contain coddling that many lovey doveys wanna pretend that compassion is."

Again, you can dish it out - but you can't take it. (I "scolded (you) like a child" - nope - I simply asserted my right not to have you - AN ADULT - call me names.)

"What I'm getting at with my words however harsh they may be is attempting to allow you to realize that they are just words. Their intended effects is purely based upon your emotional reaction to them. Without your reaction, the words are no different than any other word. This is where mental and physical security and confidence in one's whole self resides. By being insulted and upset at these words, to me, means that one hasn't fully accepted ones self because if they were, such words would have no impact."

Again, take your own advice then !  


Outerheaven writes: "Social Justice Warrior" mob-mentality group-think that seeks to control what and how people think about it."

No I am not advocating "controlling what people think, telling them they are guilty of "wrong-think," or "ferociously dictating what terms may or may not be used when discussing an issue."

Though Outerheaven  says this isn't in reference to me... it must be me he means, because I'm the only protagonist identified in the thread (to this point) - and again I must say: I was never trying to control anyone's questions, thoughts, ponderings, ideas - but I was saying that inclusivity of transgender perspective is the sensible, respectful and useful approach.

NB: at this point I want to make sure B4 members understand I was never personally "insulted", nor needing "coddling", nor - as Jeremy is now saying - do I need a "slap in the face".

(It is so ironic that by this point in the thread, I've been told I should have been less "ferocious" (etc) but Jeremy is now saying too much coddling goes on in B4. So you want me not to be assertive, but you can be as blunt as you want Jeremy?)

Outerheaven also writes: "....I agree that this is a strong catalyst for accepting others. In this case I truly don't understand the decision to alter one's gender, but I also understand that I don't need to, as long as I love/accept the person regardless of what they look like or however they identify. (Which ... circularly ... is why I don't understand the need to alter the body!... I suppose, then, my obstacle is not letting my failure to grasp or "approve" their reasoning to get in the way of my acceptance."

A really sensitive and thoughtful perspective.

Next, FolkLove blows me away with equal thoughtfulness: "My comment wasn't intended as a personal insult towards you Splash, sorry if it came across as such.  I was more so just venting my frustration at the suffocation and repression I feel, which outerheaven described quite well, when reading about and contemplating such sensitive topics as this.  As I mentioned in my previous post, it is an internal thing and comes from a place of personal insecurity and shame for having thoughts and feeling which are labelled as 'wrong' and mean I am not a decent human being.  It's really starting to dawn on me just how complex human beings are and I believe that there is a lot of forgiveness in order.  I really do try see things more harmoniously and compassionately but it is a slow and vulnerable process.  For what it's worth, I do think you raised some valuable and relevant points."

OKAY - where the thread is atm - Jeremy:

"But see that's what I'm trying to convey is that the only reason they feel unkind is because of ones emotional reaction to the catalyst being presented.  Now,  my directed personal insult was against the guidelines here so that was too far I guess.  As for all else that I have said,  I stand by all of it.

....If one finds that they feel hurt or any negative emotion after a set of words are spoken or typed,  this is where the lesson resides. This is where one needs to seek within and ask ones self why they felt this in the first place. It's how Ra spoke of consciously analyzing ones responses based upon biases one has set up for ones self within their respective incarnation.

To put it plainly,  this type of honesty from an other self could be exactly why this other self incarnated in the first place. Could I be wrong?  Most definitely. But what if I'm right and that other self needed that proverbial slap in the face to allow them to realize what they have been refusing to recognize within?

That is where honesty comes in. It's not of malice intent, at least not from me. It's the recognition or intuition to see that there is work that an other could potentially benefit from. Instead of the coddling that runs rampant here, I choose to be more blunt than most. Its also where I've come to respect zenmaster even more for what he was trying to do here. Everyone thinks compassion is trying to be nice and not hurt the others feelings but that's enabling further detrimental emotions to be harbored and I cannot be a part of that as it goes against who I am."


To which Spaced says:

"So one has no responsibility for what they say and how it will be received? It's all on the listener to just take it in and not be offended?

If you want honesty then here you go. You are using bigoted language and then defending your right to be a bigot. Sure you have that right, but we also have a right to call you out on it. Maybe you are the one who needs a slap in the face. What service are you offering here by belittling things that trans people have been fighting for for decades like basic respect for their identity?

Maybe you should seek within and ask why you have such a strong emotional reaction against referring to transgendered folks by their preferred pronouns and the idea that they don't have a disorder that needs to be fixed. After all, Ra spoke of consciously analyzing ones responses based upon biases one has set up for ones self within their respective incarnation."

YAY! Finally at this point I feel less alone in my defense of, and protectiveness about the LGBQT community.. finally someone 'gets it'...

Jeremy has recently replied:

"Awesome some honesty  

See I can accept your opinion and still disagree with it and actually be perfectly fine with what you've said. Its called constructive criticism and always something for me to think about so I appreciate it.  

Nowhere in my mind did I belittle anyone. The terms I've used are from a medical standpoint. To mutilate the body is to remove or dramatically alter it's original form so something as simple as a breast augmentation would be considered. It also means something entirely different which could be construed as negative but that's where ones own biases present themselves.

I made it clear that my intentions were not from a point of malice and purposeful hurt. This would be entirely different if I would have said something like they were an abomination and have no right to do something like that. I made it clear way back in my original post that I fully accept whatever one does in their life and I was trying to understand the spiritual implications of I all.

If one took it another way,  I apologized for it but would ever take it back because I was coming from a point of fascination and curiousory and nothing else. If you took it another way,  that's not my problem. "




To which at this point, after such a big reply

I can only let out a deeeeep breath


and walk


slowly


away

from this whole thing


love you all

even though

some of you

clearly don't like

my assertiveness

but so clearly

will argue for the right

to

your own

[Jeremy]

I Awesome! I love the honesty being portrayed! 

I don't mind in the least bit having someone confront my intentions and ideas when phrased as spaced  did. Actually I welcome it. His post was actually constructive. Like I've already stated multiple times,  if my words were too harsh,  I apologized. The whole direct insult to you was too harsh which is what I was apologizing for. 

I'm sorry but if someone takes my words and applies a negative emotion to it when my intentions are anything but,  that's their issue. Its. Its not like I directly addressed the concept and said it was wrong or bad. Never in my entire explanation have I ever stated there was anything wrong with it at all. If my words brought about such emotions, again I apologize but will not take them back because from my point of view,  the intentions were pure and honest. 

My reactions have never been emotionally charged and that's where the difference was. I'll admit the direct insult was out of line. Subsequent comments are based upon a measured response to everyone's comments. 

And who's to say what trans people prefer is right? How can my honesty not be seen as a potential catalyst for further understanding of a lack of self acceptance?  Instead it's seen as disrespectful and hurtful. What someone thinks doesn't necessarily make it right and it also means that what I think may be wrong. That's the difference. I totally entertain the notion that I could be wrong. The other side of the coin is that Im immediately labeled as disrespectful before a proper evaluation of the intentions and purpose for my words has occurred. 

I understand your frustration and what you perceive to be my disrespect. I'm not backpedddling in the least. Thus is just the course that this thread has taken and if such questions would have arisen earlier,  I would have responded the same. 

Oh and the instability part was geared specifically towards Caitlyn and no one else. The reason I said it was because they are referring to themselves as both Bruce and Caitlyn and in 3rd person. From a psychological perspective, one has to wonder about what's going on in their head. I say they is because both are being used so how am I supposed to think when the person involved can't even figure it out?

See that's the thing, people taking what I said about a single situation and applied it to the entire community and lifestyle. If one were to read what I said carefully enough, you can see that. Instead, emotions went into overdrive which clouded this.

Also if the mods are reading this, I'm perfectly ok with explaining myself like this and take no disrespect in any of it.

[Billy]

One of my problems is that I understand that something is disrespectful and hurtful on an intellectual level yet my emotions and thoughts can run counter to that, which leaves me feeling stuck and as though my only option is to repress or distract myself.  I don't know how to approach these insensitive, hateful and prejudiced thoughts within me without instantly feeling great shame and guilt.  How does one go about expressing such views in a healthy and compassionate manner without hurting self or other?  As horrible as it sounds, I feel as though I just want to unload all my hatred. anger, disgust and resentment (towards myself and other, particularly those who don't deserve it) without being called out on it, so that I can really get to the roots of the issue.  What kind of avenue and practice do you guys use when exploring such aspects of self?  Sometimes I wish that I could just 'jump' inside another persons mind and body so that I could really and truly understand where they are coming from, not just on an intellectual level but, more importantly, on an emotional and spiritual level.  I imagine that is what things are like without the veil.  All emotions are felt and understood by everyone.  Sounds lovely.

[Shawnna]

I struggle with the same things too.

:-/

For me, I have to take two deep breaths before saying/writing anything when I can feel the energy within start to stir.  I also know that I have to force myself to leave a situation in person if the tension is such that I know I'll say something that is hurtful.

Self-awareness has been the key for me - I've learned to recognize the physical signs in my body and then I've adopted actions to mitigate the potential negative outcomes.

[Splash]

*wanders back to the thread for a brief reply*

I recall as a teenager a friend (female) saying to me that she was attracted to girls... I hadn't experienced the (stated) concept of lesbianism prior to this (this was decades ago) and I had a strict Christian upbringing - so it was very 'weird' and not in my perception of reality.

As such it was quite unsettling and caused me "cognitive dissonance" for some time after...  (even weirder though is that in primary school I had a female friend who I kissed and was sort of 'in love with'... and that didn't seem weird at all)

so - cognitive dissonance is an explanation for how you're feeling (imo)...

without exposure to 'difference' - we can live - often for a long time - without our basic ideas of 'reality' being enlarged...
and when they are - it can be very strange and even feel very repugnant - until the new information sinks into our concepts of reality and over time becomes less weird.. and more a new 'everyday reality'...

homosapiens/animals have evolved to be very cautious of 'difference'.. of that which is not 'us'... as a survival mechanism..

so there's a lot of hardwiring in your feelings/reactions (imo)

also - if something is very normal for you (opposite attraction) and you're naturally totally disinclined to same sex attraction, which (by default) for you, is not a pleasant thought... (just as (for example) - sex with a woman- for most gay men is an unpleasant thought)...

your psychology/imagination.. is likely conflating the two aspects and transferring your innate repugnance of the activity - to a repugnance of the people that engage in the activity...

over time - if you separate your automatic connecting of these ideas, it could become less unpleasant for you

- just like we're conditioned not to be interested and in fact- to be repulsed (for example) in seeing our parents mating, but we're not conditioned to oppose it in principle either... this is what can occur with your feelings about LGBQT sexuality.

I'm so touched by both of you - the honesty and caring attitudes in sharing these feelings  

[Billy]

(even weirder though is that in primary school I had a female friend who I kissed and was sort of 'in love with'... and that didn't seem weird at all)

Funny, I had similar experiences when I was around that age (feeling a sort of attraction and affection towards other boys my age) and I still wonder where it came from and what it meant and represented as those sorts of feelings faded with time.

My issue isn't with people who who identify as LGBT (although I am sure if I dig deep enough I will find some prejudice there) but with the seeming self righteousness and condescending attitude of those who 'fight' for social equality and fairness.  I feel that some people wear it is a badge and are scathing and belittling to those who don't share the same views or are perhaps not as educated, which is rather hypocritical and flies right in the face of social justice.  

I almost feel as though I need to be perfect and totally accepting and loving towards everyone in order to have any real value and worthiness.  But once again, I am sure this ties back to my own insecurities and low self esteem. 

Thanks Splash, fellow Aussie 

[Splash]

....My issue isn't with people who who identify as LGBT (although I am sure if I dig deep enough I will find some prejudice there) but with the seeming self righteousness and condescending attitude of those who 'fight' for social equality and fairness.  I feel that some people wear it is a badge and are scathing and belittling to those who don't share the same views or are perhaps not as educated, which is rather hypocritical and flies right in the face of social justice.  

I almost feel as though I need to be perfect and totally accepting and loving towards everyone in order to have any real value and worthiness.  But once again, I am sure this ties back to my own insecurities and low self esteem. 

Thanks Splash, fellow Aussie 

oh yes... most definitely I get what you mean here... self righteous and condescending attitudes are unpleasant from any person of any perspective... occurs when a person feels zealous about an issue of any ideology/belief/feeling...

At times I've known or house shared with people with opinions/beliefs that I very much agreed with (feminism (ie: equality), anti-racism, equal distribution of wealth, environment protection etc) who I basically couldn't have any sort of dialogue with because they were too intense, bigoted, hateful, angry, self-righteous... basically impossible to have a conversation with; let alone a friendship.

Some of my worst interactions have been with people with almost identical philosophies to my own...

I have known 'left wing liberals*' (aka - "STO") who hold similar views to me - who I can't stand being anywhere near... and who possibly (I'd add), are actually just as STS as many hardcore fascists (etc)

(*this isn't my experience of the majority though....)

re: your comment about self esteem, that's complex... but I find that the more I unconditionally love myself, the more my feelings of love for others, regardless of whether I 'like' them, or relate to who they are.. become automatic - unforced...

"I don’t let go of my thoughts—I meet them with understanding. Then they let go of me."

~ Byron Katie

[Shawnna]

re: your comment about self esteem, that's complex... but I find that the more I unconditionally love myself, the more my feelings of love for others, regardless of whether I 'like' them, or relate to who they are.. become automatic - unforced...

"I don’t let go of my thoughts—I meet them with understanding. Then they let go of me."

~ Byron Katie

[Monica]

I wonder whether it's because it's more socially acceptable or that the veil is thinning so much,  people are getting previous lives crosswired into their current incarnation. I know from destiny and journey of Souls,  the homosexual orientation can be explained by being the opposite sex in a previous life that they were having onto yet didn't realize it so I wonder if transgender is the same. 

I wonder how well people with gender identity confusion could benefit from a regression session to find the cause because from a biological standpoint,  there's no logical reason for such mutilation so it has to reside within the mind. I also wonder if maybe someone set this up preincarnationally to experience being discriminated against or some intense lesson in acceptance. 

If only reincarnation was more commonly accepted, people could have much better understanding of such situations. I think your speculation that it's confusion stemming from crossing over to the other gender makes perfect sense. We've all been gay at various times! But until recently, there wasn't an option for people to actually switch genders.

I wonder how many of them would still switch gender if they had access to past life regression.

In any case,  it's a seriously intense thing to think about as its such a drastic catalyst for someone to be so confused that they resort to such acts. To me,  it sounds as if they are trying to fix internal issues with external corrections but I definitely entertain the notion that internally,  there is something there that we just cannot fathom on a spiritual level. 

One of my son's friends is transgender. I saw this child grow up and witnessed her/his struggling. He was born female but now identifies as male, and his partner was born male but now identifies as female! They seem happy!

Other than this limited experience with one person, I know nothing about them, but I too have wondered about the nature of such catalyst. We don't need to be transgender ourselves to seek understanding, at least to the degree of expanding our compassion, since more and more such individuals seem to be coming out.

[Monica]

Here is a commentary on this topic from black trans woman Kat Blaque :

The difference is that, gender is not a biological trait passed from parent to child, whereas race is.

Apparently, Kat is using the term gender to denote one's psychological/sexual identity, rather than one's biology. Gender used to pertain to biology, but no longer. Until recent decades, gender was indisputable. Now, it is socially acceptable to change one's gender, based on what one identifies with psychologically. But biologically, gender absolutely is passed on, just as race is.

One might be born, say, black or Asian, while being biologically Caucasian, because of bleedthrough from past lives, just as one might identify as female while being biologically male, for the same reason.

Both race and gender are biologically passed on. In both cases, the person might identify with a different race or gender.

It seems to me that the only difference is that we now have the technology to change gender, but don't yet have the technology to change race.

[Splash]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qK1GQRot...ubs_digest

Men In Heels, Gender's Fluidity + Jaden Smith
In this video, we discuss how the ideas of masculine gender presentation have changed over the centuries and how the femininity of today was the masculinity of yesterday.