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The Dismantling of the Approval/Disapproval Mechanism - Plenum - 10-24-2013
one of the greatest advances in my own journey in the last 6 months has been the systematic and progressive dismantling of my Approval/Disapproval System. Well, what exactly do you mean by this plenum?
in one of the passages on mental discipline, Ra talks about the completeness of the mind, and the polarity of this density. The dualism of this place means that almost anything that can be conceived here is dipolar, that is, it is charged either positively or negatively. This charge, in itself, is unbalancing; irrespective of the qualities involved.
Ra gives the example of patience/impatience. Patience is normally regarded as a 'good quality', something to cultivate in oneself as a 'good trait' as opposed to impatience, which can lead to many destructive and disastrous self-created situations. This is in itself true; but the problem begins when we start elevating or 'approving' of the state of 'patience'; which in turn leads to a disapproval when we witness impatience in ourselves and others; ie this disapproval becomes something that is separative because we have elevated the former quality of patience to too high a level.
that is not to say we do not have a relationship to patience or impatience ... which is best characterised as a preference or an understanding of that dual quality. It is not the patience/impatience understanding which is the issue; it is the approval/disapproval that becomes attached to that dipole.
- -
Perhaps Ra can lay it out much more succinctly than myself:
it begins with 5.2:
Ra Wrote:To begin to master the concept of mental discipline it is necessary to examine the self.
The polarity of your dimension must be internalized.
Where you find patience within your mind you must consciously find the corresponding impatience and vice versa. Each thought that a being has, has in its turn an antithesis.
--> The disciplines of the mind involve, first of all, identifying both those things of which you approve and those things of which you disapprove within yourself, and then balancing each and every positive and negative charge with its equal. <--
The mind contains all things.
Therefore, you must discover this completeness within yourself.
WOW! find everything that you approve, and find its antitheses, and also find everything that you disapprove, and apply its antithesis. Do you know how big a place the mind is, and how many thoughts that one has thought in decades of life? how many things one has 'approved' and 'disapproved' over time? I can tell you, its a lot
having gone through this process myself, and seeing the defusing of almost all reactivity (well, there are always more and more subtle levels of reactivity that reveal themselves, its an endless meditative process essentially).
- -
but anyway, the reason why this passage came to mind today is that I was reading some Rudolf Steiner (epic mystic, and a man who left a wide and varied legacy, and his Steiner schools and pegagogy are a model of enlightened understanding towards children, and he essentially began the modern practice of permaculture), well, I was reading one of his books, Knowledge of the Higher Worlds, and he essentially speaks to this identical point.
Let me back up a bit on passage 5.2.
the whole reason for pursuing these mental disciplines is to open the self to intelligent infinity. But first, the mind must be quietened, the silence of the individual self (apart from the 'whole' self) must be attained.
here is why the process is pursued:
Ra Wrote:We begin with the mental learn/teachings necessary for contact with intelligent infinity.
The prerequisite of mental work is the ability to retain silence of self at a steady state when required by the self.
--> The mind must be opened like a door.
The key is silence. <--
now the following Steiner passages speak identically to this process:
and the motives are the same:
Steiner Wrote:Of very great importance for the development of the student is the way in which he listens to others when they speak. He must accustom himself to do this in such a way that, while listening, his inner self is absolutely silent. If someone expresses an opinion and another listens, assent or dissent will, generally speaking, stir in the inner self of the listener. Many people in such cases feel themselves impelled to an expression of their assent, or more especially, of their dissent. In the student, all such assent or dissent must be silenced.
assent/dissent here equates to approval/disapproval.
and further, one is placed in situations where one hears a lot of alternative, contrary, and confused viewpoints. The test of a silent mind (non-reactivity) is to be able to read/hear such viewpoints, and be left unmoved (only feel love for the speaker/writer, and not reactivity towards their viewpoint/opinion). The silent mind is the indicator of non-reactivity.
Steiner Wrote:The student feels it his duty to listen, by way of practice, at certain times to the most contradictory views and, at the same time, bring entirely to silence all assent, and more especially, all adverse criticism. The point is that in so doing, not only all purely intellectual judgment be silenced, but also all feelings of displeasure, denial, or even assent.
this is mind-boggling epic! Such a perfect paralleling.
and of that, I do not approve or assent to lol.
peace fellow seekers,
plenum
RE: The Dismantling of the Approval/Disapproval Mechanism - xise - 10-25-2013
Judgment/Condemnation, Guilt, are all a result of the approval/disapproval mechanism, which are unnecessary for personal growth in my opinion...I agree 110% plenum
RE: The Dismantling of the Approval/Disapproval Mechanism - Sacred Fool - 10-25-2013
Yes, and with a mind stuck in a neutral, non-thinking place, does one not risk treading close to the spongy edge of the dread sinkhole of indifference to life?
Perhaps that depends upon...what, exactly?
Could the quotes above amount to counsel not to be swayed by ripples upon the surface of the mind, but by the deeper currents? The purpose of observing silence is to deepen perceptivity, no?
In that case, is the neutralizing of immediate approval/disapproval simply a way of trying to get out of the way of your own immediate reflection in the mirror?
RE: The Dismantling of the Approval/Disapproval Mechanism - Sagittarius - 10-25-2013
(10-25-2013, 12:56 AM)peregrine Wrote: Yes, and with a mind stuck in a neutral, non-thinking place, does one not risk treading close to the spongy edge of the dread sinkhole of indifference to life?
Perhaps that depends upon...what, exactly?
Could the quotes above amount to counsel not to be swayed by ripples upon the surface of the mind, but by the deeper currents? The purpose of observing silence is to deepen perceptivity, no?
In that case, is the neutralizing of immediate approval/disapproval simply a way of trying to get out of the way of your own immediate reflection in the mirror?
Swinging back and forth between approval/disapproval you start to see the mechanism in mind and body. It doesn't stop and in realizing that it stops because you approve of everything. The catch is you approve of it to disprove it to other selves.
RE: The Dismantling of the Approval/Disapproval Mechanism - xise - 10-25-2013
(10-25-2013, 12:56 AM)peregrine Wrote: Yes, and with a mind stuck in a neutral, non-thinking place, does one not risk treading close to the spongy edge of the dread sinkhole of indifference to life?
Perhaps that depends upon...what, exactly?
Could the quotes above amount to counsel not to be swayed by ripples upon the surface of the mind, but by the deeper currents? The purpose of observing silence is to deepen perceptivity, no?
In that case, is the neutralizing of immediate approval/disapproval simply a way of trying to get out of the way of your own immediate reflection in the mirror?
The change to move away from approval/disapproval, like many things on the spiritual path, must flow naturally and organically from one's being. Forcing oneself to repress or bury or deaden one's approval/disapproval mechanism is not the way and only adds further distortion.
Seeking love in the moment is a most important exercise in coming to that state. Finding those balanced beliefs that let the approval/disapproval naturally fall away is the key. Most importantly is green ray acceptance of the moment. But also to list incompletely, red (no survival concern), orange (truly self-accepting and loving oneself), yellow (having power in one's future) rays as well. And blue (honesty with selves, most importantly the self) and indigo (faith, wisdom) cannot be forgotten. It is when balance comes that your approval/disapproval falls away organically.
A highly balanced being does not approve or disapprove; it does not follow that one who does not approve or disapprove is automatically a highly balanced being. A Buddha-like character may willingly retreat into the forest to meditate for a year; it does not follow that one retreats to a forest to meditate possess a Buddha-like character.
The key is the search for a level of vibration where the things referred to in the OP flow naturally. That is the 'secret'.
RE: The Dismantling of the Approval/Disapproval Mechanism - Plenum - 10-25-2013
(10-25-2013, 12:56 AM)peregrine Wrote: Yes, and with a mind stuck in a neutral, non-thinking place, does one not risk treading close to the spongy edge of the dread sinkhole of indifference to life?
Perhaps that depends upon...what, exactly?
Could the quotes above amount to counsel not to be swayed by ripples upon the surface of the mind, but by the deeper currents? The purpose of observing silence is to deepen perceptivity, no?
In that case, is the neutralizing of immediate approval/disapproval simply a way of trying to get out of the way of your own immediate reflection in the mirror?
Hi peregrine. The end point, I believe, is to attain a state such as this:
"42.2 The catalyst of experience works in order for the learn/teachings of this density to occur. However, if there is seen in the being a response, even if it is simply observed, the entity is still using the catalyst for learn/teaching. The end result is that the catalyst is no longer needed.
Thus this density is no longer needed. This is not indifference or objectivity but a finely tuned compassion and love which sees all things as love. This seeing elicits no response due to catalytic reactions. Thus the entity is now able to become co-Creator of experiential occurrences. This is the truer balance."
I believe that the mechanics of projection, approval/disapproval, reactivity, and mirroring are all tied together as learning tools for the mind. When these tools can be skillfully used to see the self, the relationship between the self and the deeper-self is revealed, and this same relationship we have with the self is the relationship with which we then use as the foundation block for our interactions with other selves (ie positive entities accept their own inner qualities, which naturally enables them to accept those qualities in others, those on the left hand path control and suppress their inner qualities, which then leads to control and suppression of other entities. The extent of the ability to accept or control is the mark of the relative polarization in each direction).
but I agree with your point that this is a more delicate and sensitive process than perhaps I have depicted; there are many subtleties and byways in which this method can be applied.
the place of non-reactivity and silent mind is not so much indifference, in my experience, but rather being able to get out of one's way to be able to evaluate a situation more accurately, and then offer help, support, or assistance if that is what one thinks would be most helpful in the situation; rather than imposing one's own viewpoint (projection) onto the interaction.
RE: The Dismantling of the Approval/Disapproval Mechanism - Parsons - 10-25-2013
This thread discusses, clarifies, and expands upon the concept introduced in Ra 5.2. It is ineffably important to my path at this timing.
You have perfectly reinforced and driven the point home with your rebuttal to peregrine's viewpoint (which, of course, is still valid).
Thank you so much for your analysis, brother.
RE: The Dismantling of the Approval/Disapproval Mechanism - Rhayader - 10-25-2013
Very nicely put penlum. This is something I too have been thinking a lot about recently. I have found it useful to think in terms that everything has an antithesis, and by understanding that and the spectrum in between yields far greater choice, or reactivity. This is why i've rarely gotten into arguements since I nearly always see and respect both sides, it becomes pointless. It also leads me to being susceptible to great depths of despair and heights of joy as well as indifference. So in that sense to avoid some of that fluctuation would indeed be as you say, to seek love for each moment.
RE: The Dismantling of the Approval/Disapproval Mechanism - Sacred Fool - 10-25-2013
Hail, plenum!
It seems we agree, and I would let it go at that...but I have some additional queries.
Whereas I would not argue with what you present, I wonder if you would agree that it feels over balanced towards a masculine, mechanistic attitude and could be further enhanced if it also encompassed the more fluid, organic aspects of the experience of self as seemingly unrelated strands weave and curl through various levels, known and unknown, of one's being? Do you suppose that the kind of equipoise suggested is attained by merely following some rules? The stupefying complexity of being (or, the confusion in the hall of mirrors) may not lend itself to such a concise remedy.
I wonder if xise is suggesting a balance point of love (where is the love in this moment?) and your suggestion balances on a point of wisdom?
RE: The Dismantling of the Approval/Disapproval Mechanism - Sagittarius - 10-25-2013
(10-25-2013, 01:06 PM)peregrine Wrote: Hail, plenum!
It seems we agree, and I would let it go at that...but I have some additional queries.
Whereas I would not argue with what you present, I wonder if you would agree that it feels over balanced towards a masculine, mechanistic attitude and could be further enhanced if it also encompassed the more fluid, organic aspects of the experience of self as seemingly unrelated strands weave and curl through various levels, known and unknown, of one's being? Do you suppose that the kind of equipoise suggested is attained by merely following some rules? The stupefying complexity of being (or, the confusion in the hall of mirrors) may not lend itself to such a concise remedy.
I wonder if xise is suggesting a balance point of love (where is the love in this moment?) and your suggestion balances on a point of wisdom?
The point doesn't change only your perception of it. Would the two methods you allude to not coincide to the balancing of love/wisdom ?
There comes a point where both love and wisdom need each other to continue perceived progress.
RE: The Dismantling of the Approval/Disapproval Mechanism - Patrick - 10-25-2013
Forgiveness of the self is very helpful.
RE: The Dismantling of the Approval/Disapproval Mechanism - AnthroHeart - 10-25-2013
(10-25-2013, 06:24 PM)Patrick Wrote: Forgiveness of the self is very helpful.
I'm learning that it's pretty powerful too. I believe it helps with positive polarization, because we are accepting ourselves, faults and all.
RE: The Dismantling of the Approval/Disapproval Mechanism - zenmaster - 10-27-2013
If you're not conscious of why you like or dislike something, then that aspect of self essentially belongs to someone else along with your unconscious interest in it.
RE: The Dismantling of the Approval/Disapproval Mechanism - Patrick - 10-27-2013
(10-27-2013, 10:59 AM)zenmaster Wrote: If you're not conscious of why you like or dislike something, then that aspect of self essentially belongs to someone else along with your unconscious interest in it.
Know thyself!
RE: The Dismantling of the Approval/Disapproval Mechanism - Plenum - 10-27-2013
(10-25-2013, 01:06 PM)peregrine Wrote: Whereas I would not argue with what you present, I wonder if you would agree that it feels over balanced towards a masculine, mechanistic attitude and could be further enhanced if it also encompassed the more fluid, organic aspects of the experience of self as seemingly unrelated strands weave and curl through various levels, known and unknown, of one's being? Do you suppose that the kind of equipoise suggested is attained by merely following some rules? The stupefying complexity of being (or, the confusion in the hall of mirrors) may not lend itself to such a concise remedy.
I wonder if xise is suggesting a balance point of love (where is the love in this moment?) and your suggestion balances on a point of wisdom?
Hi peregine. I was off a couple of days, so missed your reply (the thread got bumped just now).
yes, this particular technique of finding approval/disapproval is just one other tool for moving towards greater balance. It works best (in my experience) when you find yourself riled up against someone, for whatever reason, and you can't immediately diagnose why. So it needs some quiet meditative time to process after the experience.
as for being mechanistic and masculine ... yes, I can see how it can come off that way lol. I have heard the same criticisms from a few different places in regards to Ra in general ... that it's very stilted, scientific, and lacks a certain 'flow'. : )
but I do see your point in respects to being maybe too 'rule based'. It is probably best to think of this (and other observations from Ra) as a toolkit of techniques ... and those techniques are applicable in some situations, and less relevant in others. Some techniques are useful to the beginner, and perhaps less useful later on. So in that respects, its not a 'brute force' do-this, and you will be healed type approach.
- -
in regards to your love/wisdom point ... its probably best if I expand upon how I in particular understand the 4th/5th energy centres and their inter-relationship.
for me, the words love/wisdom don't quite fully explain these two energy centres and their function. I appreciate that love and wisdom are used in metaphysical circles for a broad pointing towards two vast areas of human consciousness, but just signalling those two areas with two words seems somehow inadequate. It would be like describing your wife's face (hypothetical example) as being 'beautiful' ... and everyone has a conception of 'beauty' ... but unless there is a photo, and perhaps voluminous words to describe the various facial features of your wife, the word 'beautiful' is grossly inadequate as a descriptor or conveyor of the actual experience of your wife's face.
- -
so we can refer to the 4th energy centre as green ray or love, but it is just a very raw descriptor for this vibrational banding. In other circles (psychological), this 4th energy center could best be characterised as the 'trans-personal', or those areas of consciousness that pertain to areas that are in the deep mind (what Ra calls the 'roots of mind').
now, what does what I've just said have any relationship to the word 'love' as commonly understood? well, this recognition of the transpersonal ('deep mind') as a common heritage to all entities is the recognition that we are all connected, in some way, via consciousness, even if we are inhabiting and experiencing different lives in separate physical vehicles. This recognition of 'commonness' or 'linkedness', when fully unlocked, leads to the full understanding and appreciation of 'universal love'; that one is not separate from another, and no-one has any more value than other; it is all rooted in the 'One Thing'. That recognition is expressed in action as - 'I Love All, because it is the One Thing, it is all connected'.
this understanding is the one that pivots positive entities towards unity, and the full blocking of this understanding is how negative entities can continue on their path of separation. It is all in how we relate to the deep mind.
- -
now, this 4th ray unblocking is not the be all and end all of understandings. It is the springboard into higher densities, but the spectrum of consciousness continues into 5th ray.
the blue ray energy centre (as I understand it) is referenced by the word 'wisdom', and bears an integral relation to the 4th centre preceding it.
if the 4th energy centre is a recognition of the deep mind and the common heritage of all things, then the 5th acts like a spotlight that shines on the deep mind, and illuminates various aspects of it. The image I most often use is that the deep mind is like an ocean, and the 5th ray of wisdom is like a deep sea diver, or one of those submersible vehicles that explored the remains of the Titanic. Blue ray is being able to explore aspects of the deep mind, understand them, and then bring them back to the surface, articulated, and share these findings with others. It is not all scientific and philosophic and logic; many great blue ray explorers communicate what they have seen and experienced through the tools of music, poetry, novels, and dance, and acting. The important quality is - communication - in a way that others can appreciate and vibe to, or learn from. It is a sharing of findings of the deep mind.
Of course, the more of the deep mind you are willing to acknowledge (the clearer the heart centre is, the greater the ability to see all your experiences and other people as being rooted in the one depth), the more of this potential ocean you will have to explore. And the greater the blue ray capacity, the clearer you will be able to communicate these understandings and experiences to others.
The wisdom lies in being able to understand the self; not the self in the limited personal sense; but the self in the transpersonal sense; those understanding that are not just 'personal' and limited to your particular discrete life; although one's personal life experience will always be the springboard point into the deep mind.
great creators in the artistic sense have this blue ray capacity. They also tend to be exceptionally fertile, as if you are drawing upon the deep mind (the infinite ocean) there are no limits or exhaustion of this resource; only one's ability to keep tapping it.
- -
now, in relation to the above, where does the mechanism of approval/disapproval sit? I believe it relates, integrally, to the 4th energy centre, that of being able to see all aspects of the self as one.
when we approve or disapprove of aspects in ourselves, or aspects that we see in others (via the projection mechanism) we are creating a blockage in the heart centre. Instead of being able to accept those aspects/qualities as self, we are somehow re-routing those energies, and preventing them from the continued upflow.
of course, all that I have written here and above is predicated on my personal experience, and so may not be directly translatable into your frame of reference.
but hopefully some of it will resonate or be pertinent; and you will be able to use it as a lever forward.
peace brother,
plenum
RE: The Dismantling of the Approval/Disapproval Mechanism - Cynthia - 10-27-2013
(10-24-2013, 11:46 PM)plenum Wrote:Steiner Wrote:Of very great importance for the development of the student is the way in which he listens to others when they speak. He must accustom himself to do this in such a way that, while listening, his inner self is absolutely silent. If someone expresses an opinion and another listens, assent or dissent will, generally speaking, stir in the inner self of the listener. Many people in such cases feel themselves impelled to an expression of their assent, or more especially, of their dissent. In the student, all such assent or dissent must be silenced.
assent/dissent here equates to approval/disapproval.
and further, one is placed in situations where one hears a lot of alternative, contrary, and confused viewpoints. The test of a silent mind (non-reactivity) is to be able to read/hear such viewpoints, and be left unmoved (only feel love for the speaker/writer, and not reactivity towards their viewpoint/opinion). The silent mind is the indicator of non-reactivity.
Steiner Wrote:The student feels it his duty to listen, by way of practice, at certain times to the most contradictory views and, at the same time, bring entirely to silence all assent, and more especially, all adverse criticism. The point is that in so doing, not only all purely intellectual judgment be silenced, but also all feelings of displeasure, denial, or even assent.
Letting go of approval/disapproval is something I've been working on also since before I found LOO a couple months ago. I'd been approaching it from a zen perspective that approval and/or disapproval are attachments by the ego. And it's the ego and its attachments that prevent my becoming quiet (especially when meditating). So 'improvement' in this has come not so much from finding the antithesis of whatever sparked the assent/dissent and integrating the two, it has come more from being the Watcher and letting go of attachment to either the assent or dissent.
RE: The Dismantling of the Approval/Disapproval Mechanism - xise - 10-27-2013
(10-27-2013, 10:23 PM)Cynthia Wrote: Letting go of approval/disapproval is something I've been working on also since before I found LOO a couple months ago. I'd been approaching it from a zen perspective that approval and/or disapproval are attachments by the ego. And it's the ego and its attachments that prevent my becoming quiet (especially when meditating). So 'improvement' in this has come not so much from finding the antithesis of whatever sparked the assent/dissent and integrating the two, it has come more from being the Watcher and letting go of attachment to either the assent or dissent.
Comments:
(1) Attachments are somewhat incompatible with unconditional acceptance of the moment, the present. Attachments are often thought of to be related to physical attachments, but it is often the attachments to a particular configuration of reality (I want be a doctor or I've "failed") that is so much stronger for many people. I also call attachments to a particular configuration of reality "expectations."
(2) I believe, but am not sure, that balancing techniques are different from non-polarizing distortions and polarizing beliefs. Non polarizing distortions - free sexuality is wrong - this is neither positively or negatively polarizing, it just a culture distortion or judgment if it goes past a suggestion to a hard and fast rule about life - it is not just the thought but the emotional charge or attachment to the thought that matters - if I say its not very helpful for a friend to get yell and angry at his children without much emotional charge, that is not condemnation but more observation, vulcan style, but if I say it with even a hint of disapproval that is judgement/condemnation. Polarizing beliefs - might makes right -sts polarizing.
Your comment on invoking the antithesis I believe, but am not sure, has more efficacious use on polarizing beliefs rather than pure non-polarizing distortions (because for a large subset of non-polarizing beliefs, I believe it is harder to identify what the opposite might be - free sexuality's opposite - is that abstinence or very controlled sexuality to the style of arrange marriages and no premartial sex; is this antithesis study as useful as applying the antithesis of might makes right as in right is independent of might? However, I will say that this delineation is not always a hard a fast line, but there are not too many grey areas so I find the delineation useful.
RE: The Dismantling of the Approval/Disapproval Mechanism - Sacred Fool - 10-28-2013
(10-27-2013, 02:04 PM)plenum Wrote: peace brother,
plenum
It may be that I've been treading too heavily here. From a previous post I see that what you're aiming at is disciplining the mind, like training a dog, by guiding it to be more watchful and considerate of how it interacts with catalyst. This is certainly a good thing and, by it's nature, somewhat "mechanystical," so to speak. I was coming at this from a different angle and may have inadvertently caused a collision of thought. Sorry about that.
When I mentioned balancing point, I was thinking not of discipline, per se, but of where the mind is seated, in the intellect or in the heart. The intellect tends to see things from a remote vantage, whereas the heart feels the swirl within and without in a more integrated way.
To borrow your example, if I told you that my partner were attractive by commonly recognized standards and measured up in this or that way, that would be one thing. If I tried to convey to you the experience of how our partnership synergistically enhances my life and how I enjoy her gracefulness and consideration, warmth and radiance, then, I would argue, that my mind would be seated in a very different place and the experience you would have would be markedly different because of it.
I take your point that relaxing approval/disapproval relaxes constrictions in the heart center, but I wouldn't equate that with consciousness being seated in the heart. There still remains a difference between a relationship with the world which analyzes things as being remote from self versus a more mature relationship which attempts to hold all-things-as-part-of-self-cum-self-being-part-of-all.
For me, personally, this is a space I can enter into only with effort at this time. I have a strong bias towards wisdom and can easily lose my seat, shall we say, in my heart. [Oh, that imposing journey of 14 or so inches!]
I like your discussion of wisdom being like a searchlight into the depths of being. Perhaps, though, wisdom sees the surface layer of consciousness as one transparent overlay and sees various other overlays beneath? Perhaps it doesn't drop down into some distant, unseen murk, but sees the alignment of many-layered patterns and through these deduces vertical etchings of the design of the Creator?
Peace, indeed, brother p.
~p
RE: The Dismantling of the Approval/Disapproval Mechanism - Plenum - 10-28-2013
yes peregrine, I think your thoughts express many points that others perhaps might be feeling - that they are over-balanced into wisdom, and don't allow themselves to feel enough.
it seems to be the case (according to Ra) that many 6d Wanderers choose an incarnation here to help address this balance point of 'love-wisdom', so that the power that comes with the indigo centre can be better utilised.
and of course, there will be Wanderers here that are overbalanced into love, and there is the learning of the lesson not to continually overextend the self into exhaustion, and possible martyrdom.
each has their own particular, and in most cases, very confronting lifelong lesson that they chose for themselves.
RE: The Dismantling of the Approval/Disapproval Mechanism - AnthroHeart - 10-28-2013
I don't feel I am very wise. Sometimes I don't feel like I am very loving. But between the two, I'm slightly overbalanced in love. Has probably something to do with the 4D instreaming energy.
RE: The Dismantling of the Approval/Disapproval Mechanism - zenmaster - 10-28-2013
(10-28-2013, 05:11 PM)plenum Wrote: yes peregrine, I think your thoughts express many points that others perhaps might be feeling - that they are over-balanced into wisdom, and don't allow themselves to feel enough.Careful not to confuse thinking vs feeling- faculty bias with the notion of "wisdom" vs "love". As Ra said, "The entity ruled by intuition and impulse is equal to the entity governed by rational analysis when polarity is considered." If there is wisdom-love imbalance than either faculty may be used to balance. feeling is from time/space and thinking is from space/time - so the view is a dichotomy. So one treatment is not "more mature" than another lol! The time/space (feeling) view is simply inherently holistic - however that wholeness is of course not conscious, merely on the periphery of consciousness - it is a suggestion to consciousness. The space/time view (thinking) identifies parts. 100% complementary processes. Those born with the feeling bias will eventually need to work on their thinking to achieve "maturity" and vice versa.
RE: The Dismantling of the Approval/Disapproval Mechanism - anagogy - 10-28-2013
(10-28-2013, 09:45 PM)zenmaster Wrote: feeling is from time/space and thinking is from space/time
Where do you derive this idea from?
RE: The Dismantling of the Approval/Disapproval Mechanism - zenmaster - 10-28-2013
(10-28-2013, 09:58 PM)anagogy Wrote:Various books such as Carl Jung's "Personality Types", Alexander's "Space, Time and Deity" More explanation here: http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthread.php?tid=2010&pid=25707#pid25707(10-28-2013, 09:45 PM)zenmaster Wrote: feeling is from time/space and thinking is from space/time
Where do you derive this idea from?
RE: The Dismantling of the Approval/Disapproval Mechanism - Sacred Fool - 10-29-2013
(10-28-2013, 09:45 PM)zenmaster Wrote: Careful not to confuse thinking vs feeling- faculty bias with the notion of "wisdom" vs "love".
Agreed, although he may not have been intending a precise one-to-one correspondence.
(10-28-2013, 09:45 PM)zenmaster Wrote: As Ra said, "The entity ruled by intuition and impulse is equal to the entity governed by rational analysis when polarity is considered."
If you rig the comparison that way, then, yes, that is what you will get. But the intention here is not to be ruled by one bias or another. If you follow that journey of 14 or so inches from your head to your heart, the ensuing state of consciousness is not comparable with the one left behind, or have I been mis-understanding Q'uo all this time? These are not comparable in that the latter is grounded in the first distortion of free will. This is not wisdom. This is love.
(10-28-2013, 09:45 PM)zenmaster Wrote: If there is wisdom-love imbalance than either faculty may be used to balance.
True, but again, consciousness resonates differently (more in accord with the Creator...twice removed, not thrice) when it is seated in the heart, no?
(10-28-2013, 09:45 PM)zenmaster Wrote: feeling is from time/space and thinking is from space/time - so the view is a dichotomy. So one treatment is not "more mature" than another lol! The time/space (feeling) view is simply inherently holistic - however that wholeness is of course not conscious, merely on the periphery of consciousness - it is a suggestion to consciousness. The space/time view (thinking) identifies parts. 100% complementary processes. Those born with the feeling bias will eventually need to work on their thinking to achieve "maturity" and vice versa.
I read the discussion which your link leads to and it certainly is all about dichotomy. However, this other point is a different matter, in my view. I would say that Q'uo has very strong reasons for advocating that one make that 14 inch journey. It's not that the landscape looks different from there, my colleague, but it vibrates very differently and, in my opinion, brings one closer to a state where the LOO holds sway and all paradoxes (and dichotomies) find peaceable resolution.
It's beyond mere conceptualization; it's a more resonant reorganization of consciousness so that the abstracted self lies more in alignment with trans-personal being...unless I'm wrong...
RE: The Dismantling of the Approval/Disapproval Mechanism - AnthroHeart - 10-29-2013
I can't even name any paradoxes, but I know they're there.
RE: The Dismantling of the Approval/Disapproval Mechanism - zenmaster - 10-29-2013
(10-29-2013, 12:53 AM)peregrine Wrote:It's not "ruled by", it's mainly your bodily disposition which provides that initial bias until sufficiently explored and the imbalance is made sufficiently conscious.(10-28-2013, 09:45 PM)zenmaster Wrote: As Ra said, "The entity ruled by intuition and impulse is equal to the entity governed by rational analysis when polarity is considered."
If you rig the comparison that way, then, yes, that is what you will get. But the intention here is not to be ruled by one bias or another.
(10-29-2013, 12:53 AM)peregrine Wrote: If you follow that journey of 14 or so inches from your head to your heart, the ensuing state of consciousness is not comparable with the one left behind, or have I been mis-understanding Q'uo all this time?There is no development that goes from head to heart. Qu'o is Carla's personal "guidance system" and most of that material is geared toward addressing her allegory, which does not extend much into the deeper mind.
(10-29-2013, 12:53 AM)peregrine Wrote: These are not comparable in that the latter is grounded in the first distortion of free will. This is not wisdom. This is love."Love" is primarily acceptance. The "heart" is reached *upwards* not downwards. That is upwards from acceptance of self which is reflected in each energy center for balancing.
(10-29-2013, 12:53 AM)peregrine Wrote:Yes "heart" as in "core" of being - that which is centered. The original face, where you originally came from, etc. That core is something that is constantly sought though. You aren't seated in that "heart".(10-28-2013, 09:45 PM)zenmaster Wrote: If there is wisdom-love imbalance than either faculty may be used to balance.
True, but again, consciousness resonates differently (more in accord with the Creator...twice removed, not thrice) when it is seated in the heart, no?
(10-29-2013, 12:53 AM)peregrine Wrote:Again, Carla's allegory and an idea of a level of acceptance which is moving away from some ineffectual condition which she associates with "the head".(10-28-2013, 09:45 PM)zenmaster Wrote: feeling is from time/space and thinking is from space/time - so the view is a dichotomy. So one treatment is not "more mature" than another lol! The time/space (feeling) view is simply inherently holistic - however that wholeness is of course not conscious, merely on the periphery of consciousness - it is a suggestion to consciousness. The space/time view (thinking) identifies parts. 100% complementary processes. Those born with the feeling bias will eventually need to work on their thinking to achieve "maturity" and vice versa.
I read the discussion which your link leads to and it certainly is all about dichotomy. However, this other point is a different matter, in my view. I would say that Q'uo has very strong reasons for advocating that one make that 14 inch journey.
(10-29-2013, 12:53 AM)peregrine Wrote: It's not that the landscape looks different from there, my colleague, but it vibrates very differently and, in my opinion, brings one closer to a state where the LOO holds sway and all paradoxes (and dichotomies) find peaceable resolution.Not really. The paradoxes don't have a resolution here, by a long shot. When "green ray" is initially reached we may begin to explore interiors and have indeed enabled a connection to a more holistic view which may *suggest* resolution in infinity. The actual exploration of the suggestions and their ownership is quite another thing entirely.
(10-29-2013, 12:53 AM)peregrine Wrote: It's beyond mere conceptualization; it's a more resonant reorganization of consciousness so that the abstracted self lies more in alignment with trans-personal being...unless I'm wrong..."green ray" provides the first taste of "transpersonal being", and there is a reorganization of consciousness with that of course. But fundamentally, it's a level of vibration which is reached through a sufficient acceptance of self. If some confusion or distracting ideas were blocking that acceptance (and the associated welcoming of those energies), and that blockage is associated with the "head" then you have your 14" journey. But that's someone's specific personal allegory and not some general principle of evolution.
RE: The Dismantling of the Approval/Disapproval Mechanism - Sacred Fool - 10-30-2013
It's interesting to see how you've adapted the Ra Material--and discounted that from Q'uo--to create a what reads to me as a doctrinal framework without much warmth.
We're so far apart here that I doubt we could possibly meet anywhere in the middle.
As I understand it, Q'uo is a joint effort of Latwii, Hatonn & Ra, not someone's guidance system. Carla calls her guidance system Holly, and that's a different matter altogether.
In fact, there can be a developement from head to heart, but it's not a simplistic progression. It has to do with balancing love & wisdom so that the one's disposition tilts more in sync with the Creator, which is to say, more towards love. But--as I understand it--it's not so much about contacting green ray energy on the way up the line to the top color. Instead, it has to do with sitting more in alignment with mysterious unfolding of Infinite Being. It's about being poised more in alignment with the intersection of planes of being. Wisdom can tell you about it but cannot get you there. In other words, you can perceive things through wisdom, but you can experience them most fully through love. (In my experience wisdom is often the refuge of those who would avoid the difficulties of engaging with the enigma of Life.) If you are able, one can enjoy much more than what you call "the first taste of transpersonal being" in the deep heart's core.
So, to sum up, this is not Carla's construct, it comes from the Confederation--if you believe all that stuff-- and it surely reaches as far into the deeper mind as you are willing to experience, not simply theorize about.
RE: The Dismantling of the Approval/Disapproval Mechanism - Sagittarius - 10-30-2013
So the confederation dictates your thought and judgment ?
You speak of wisdom as a be all and end all, how do you know your current conception of wisdom allows you to make judgement's ? So others use Wisdom as a refuge from experience but you don't ? What were you doing just now if not using your wisdom to make a judgement.
RE: The Dismantling of the Approval/Disapproval Mechanism - Sacred Fool - 10-30-2013
Apropos of this thread, you seem to have major approval/disapproval issues.
(10-30-2013, 03:28 AM)Sagittarius Wrote: So the confederation dictates your thought and judgment ?I simply sought to clarify the attribution of the source of information. Why would that provoke you to attack me, accusing me of thinking I was being dictated to?
(10-30-2013, 03:28 AM)Sagittarius Wrote: You speak of wisdom as a be all and end all, how do you know your current conception of wisdom allows you to make judgement's ? So others use Wisdom as a refuge from experience but you don't ? What were you doing just now if not using your wisdom to make a judgement.
I hardly spoke of wisdom as a be all & end all. Obviously, a being has a greater state of harmony when wisdom is balanced with love.
Anybody's wisdom allows them to make judgments. The quality of these, the maturity of them, is another matter. I don't ask you to accept mine, nor do I expect you to attack them.
I certainly have used wisdom as a refuge from experience and likely will do so again: that's mainly how I know about it. Your attack does not take away from the point I made above, however.
You are so correct, my friend, I an indeed using wisdom right now to determine how best to answer your catalyst. I hope, as well, to bring to it as much love as I can bear. I hope you can accept that.
RE: The Dismantling of the Approval/Disapproval Mechanism - Sagittarius - 10-30-2013
Attack ? A bit paranoid aren't we. It was simply a question. One day the judgement's won't wash it away
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