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Other-selves and projection - Printable Version

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Other-selves and projection - sillypumpkins - 11-26-2020

Hello everybody.

I've been dealing with some pretty tough catalyst with a sibling of mine this year.

My brother and I make music together and we both really like doing it. We live together now and most days we play together.

Lately, my brother has been getting really frustrated because (I quote) "we are so lazy about making music", "we could be doing way more", etc etc.

Last night, my brother seemed upset and I asked what was going on and he said that first thing, "we are lazy about making music." I sort of shut it down because I really didn't appreciate my self being brought into the equation in that way. I basically told him that I appreciate his feelings about it but I don't appreciate him bringing me into the equation, because it's clearly an issue within himself.

He sort of dropped it after that.

Well today it got brought up again. It was sort of presented this time as, "well, I can't bring this up with you anymore because you just get offended so I'm just not going to bring it up cause I don't wanna argue." I told him we can talk about it without arguing. We tried but it turned into an argument.

My issue with this is that my brother's issues with himself are very clearly being projected on to me. In the sense that, he feels that he should be doing more or that he's lazy, and yet he frames it as an "us" issue. We are identical twins, so each of our sense of self has always sort of been wrapped up in each other in one way or another. Just to give you a bit more context.

So, we are at a point now where my brother doesn't want to talk about it because "we both want different things and I just have to get over that," and he doesn't want to argue. And I will absolutely talk about it but often times I get upset about it just because of how the conversation always goes. Whenever I just listen to him, that is never enough for him, and whenever I explain my perspective on music-making or my perspective on how the "issue" is being framed, I just get pushed to the side. It's like he needs something from me and if I'm not giving it to him, he doesn't want to talk? I don't know. It's not a great feeling.

Does anyone have any experience with this sort of projection, particularly with a close family member? It is a total mind-f*** for me (pardon my language). It's like a stalemate. I understand my brother is upset about some things, and I want to give him the space to express that, but it's very difficult to do when the entire issue is framed as an "us" problem, and especially when I don't at all share the same sentiments. So on one hand, I want to provide the space to listen to him, but on the other, I can't sit and just listen to some of the things he says because he talks about it as a "we" problem, and to me it's totally not like that. We are each our own persons, and having faith in ourselves as individuals is more important than anything else.

Really just looking for some advice here. This has been my biggest catalyst that I can remember and it's quite draining at times. Less so than in the past, but still.

I appreciate you all. To my American friends: happy thanksgiving....... aw hell, thanksgiving to you all Smile


RE: Other-selves and projection - Louisabell - 11-26-2020

The funny thing about projection, is that to first judge someone else as projecting, we must first project onto them.

In other words, why exactly do you have a problem with your brother perceiving you as lazy in music? People judge, it's what they do, and it's your brother's business what he perceives, just as it is your business what you perceive.

So, if it was me in your shoes and I wanted to help the communication, I would ask the question, "where am I lazy in music creation?". We all have parts of ourselves that are lazy, and parts that are hardworking. Life is always a compromise. For example, someone could appear very lazy on the outside, but be very hardworking in their meditative practice.

We are all things. To acknowledge the laziness within, to accept it, to honor it, that is positive polarisation. And it does not mean you have to change your behaviour at all! But it can validate your brother's experience, and might help mend the divide.

But of course I don't know the whole story, so take what I say with a grain of salt.


RE: Other-selves and projection - sillypumpkins - 11-26-2020

You raise a really good point Louisa.

I suppose a big part of my problem with it is 1.) the pressure that my brother puts on himself to "do something" gets put on me as well when this topic gets brought up, "we have to be doing more", and that sort of thing. I think a part of my reaction to those comments is partly because I used to be really hard on myself about "doing" things and lately have let myself sort of just "be." So when that energy gets brought up, I tend to react in that way. Idk, I've always had a problem with people telling me what I "should" and "shouldn't" do. Authority issues? Maybe. Something to explore I suppose. 2.) what you mention, which I didn't really realize, is that he is pointing out things about myself that are most likely true and there is likely a part of me thaaaaaat, doesn't really like what's being pointed out. Smile

I appreciate your comment Louisa. You're right that it would most likely be helpful to acknowledge these things that my brother points out, for myself and for him. I am going to work on doing that.

Much love to you and thank you


RE: Other-selves and projection - flofrog - 11-26-2020

Happy Thanksgiving Silly if you are celebrating ...

There’s one more little point to what Louisabell so well described.
One of our common trait in 3D is that we are hard on ourselves anyway. Evidently we don’t like someone else pointing back to us something that we are often disliking about ourselves already.
It’s good to make peace with one item that we dislike, because as soon as we do so, it’s much easier to answer: “ You are right about this, I have known this for a while and I am working on it.” This is usually enough to stop a difficult conversation and even change it to a more positive exchange.

Don’t give up Silly on forgiving yourself, it makes us less vulnerable to the hurt we feel at what someone else tells us, whether it is true, or not true.

It’s really interesting how becoming internally peaceful and sincerely humble frees us a lot.. Wink


RE: Other-selves and projection - sillypumpkins - 11-26-2020

(11-26-2020, 07:36 PM)flofrog Wrote: Happy Thanksgiving Silly if you are celebrating ...

There’s one more little point to what Louisabell so well described.
One of our common trait in 3D is that we are hard on ourselves anyway. Evidently we don’t like someone else pointing back to us something that we are often disliking about ourselves already.
It’s good to make peace with one item that we dislike, because as soon as we do so, it’s much easier to answer: “ You are right about this, I have known this for a while and I am working on it.”  This is usually enough to stop a difficult conversation and even change it to a more positive exchange.

Don’t give up Silly on forgiving yourself, it makes us less vulnerable to the hurt we feel at what someone else tells us, whether it is true, or not true.  

It’s really interesting how becoming internally  peaceful and sincerely humble frees us a lot.. Wink

Heart Heart Heart to you Flo, thank you for your words.

It always blows my mind how messy things can get from any one souls perspective, but when it comes down to it, it really is so simple Smile just sort of beautiful really

thank you again


RE: Other-selves and projection - Sacred Fool - 11-27-2020

What exactly is he saying? That you're unresponsive, inattentive, unimaginative??? Or are you unable to hold onto your instrument?


RE: Other-selves and projection - sillypumpkins - 11-27-2020

He's frustrated that we haven't been able to pull together an cohesive musical album, I think, is sort of the basic thing. He's as frustrated with himself as he is with me.


RE: Other-selves and projection - Aion - 11-27-2020

While I don't have a twin and am generally pretty chill making music with my bros, I have a lot of band experience and I think I can see what's going on here.

This comes up sometimes with my one musical partner who is very driven but without "forward momentum" he gets frustrated and feels stagnant very quickly.
Obviously, for him a feeling of progress is important and when our band is low in activities he often wants to start new projects or "lets just record an album".
I am a little more chill about things so I don't get so stressed about that stuff, but I very much get when you feel you have potential you're not tapping in to it can get very frustrating.

However, from the perspective of a musician, I have to ask the question, soooo why haven't you been able to pull it together?
Is that something you are even interested in?
Clarifying for yourself what you actually want out of the situation might help to understand the difference in perspective.


RE: Other-selves and projection - ada - 11-27-2020

I haven't much to add beside that perhaps in music making you can't always force oneself to do just it and make a song or an album, because when the inspiration comes naturally it usually plays itself quite well.


RE: Other-selves and projection - Sacred Fool - 11-27-2020

Sounds to me like you guys might be spinning your wheels on a level where you've used up all the catalyst, so you need to find your way to the next level of coherence. It sounds like he might need both more space and less engagement in order to "hear himself." You could just try striking out in new directions (with you playing more of a deliberately supporting role, perhaps) and seeing of any of those lead anywhere. You could also meditate upon the matter and see what comes via that approach.


RE: Other-selves and projection - sillypumpkins - 11-27-2020

(11-27-2020, 01:59 AM)Aion Wrote: However, from the perspective of a musician, I have to ask the question, soooo why haven't you been able to pull it together?
Is that something you are even interested in?
Clarifying for yourself what you actually want out of the situation might help to understand the difference in perspective.

These are good questions to think about, thank you Aion.

Just gonna run off some thoughts I have on it right now.

Is it something I am even interested in? Yeah, I am interested in it. The thing is that we have recorded soooo much over the years, and still play together too without recording. We are great at just hitting record and making music, or just jamming. No thinking about what we're doing, just doing it.

So, why haven't I been able to pull it together? Well, I think that would involve changing what we do. Not totally changing it, but it would require a change of mindset. This is something we've both talked about. Communicating musical ideas verbally, really trying to figure out what we want something to sound like, and that sort of thing. Because we don't do that, it's all very off the cuff now and has been for about 5 years.

My brother has also expressed to me that he's becoming bored of making music by himself. I really like making music by myself. So that might play into it as well.

So I think a big part of why I haven't pulled it together is because that would involve some change to the way I make music with my brother. And, that can be hard for me, change, that is.

(11-27-2020, 02:24 AM)ada Wrote: I haven't much to add beside that perhaps in music making you can't always force oneself to do just it and make a song or an album, because when the inspiration comes naturally it usually plays itself quite well.

totally, and that is sort of how I operate. I've expressed that difference to my brother, how he tends to be more "masculine" in that way when it comes to music and I tend to be more "feminine" in that way. Not like either is bad or right or anything like that, it's just clear that we each have a different mode of operation when it comes to this kinda thing. some reconciliation of the two would be ultimately beneficial i think

(11-27-2020, 02:45 PM)peregrine Wrote: Sounds to me like you guys might be spinning your wheels on a level where you've used up all the catalyst, so you need to find your way to the next level of coherence.  It sounds like he might need both more space and less engagement in order to "hear himself."  You could just try striking out in new directions (with you playing more of a deliberately supporting role, perhaps) and seeing of any of those lead anywhere.  You could also meditate upon the matter and see what comes via that approach.

interesting and well-worded perspective, peregrine, thank you.

I think you are on to something when you say we might be spinning our wheels on a level where we've used up all the catalyst. We've been making music the same way for 5 years now, so that part definitely resonates with me.

there is definitely a sense of needing to operate from a higher level. I think we both feel that.

will be meditating on the matter


RE: Other-selves and projection - Glow - 11-27-2020

(11-26-2020, 07:22 PM)sillypumpkins Wrote: You raise a really good point Louisa.

I suppose a big part of my problem with it is 1.) the pressure that my brother puts on himself to "do something" gets put on me as well when this topic gets brought up, "we have to be doing more", and that sort of thing. I think a part of my reaction to those comments is partly because I used to be really hard on myself about "doing" things and lately have let myself sort of just "be." So when that energy gets brought up, I tend to react in that way. Idk, I've always had a problem with people telling me what I "should" and "shouldn't" do. Authority issues? Maybe. Something to explore I suppose. 2.) what you mention, which I didn't really realize, is that he is pointing out things about myself that are most likely true and there is likely a part of me thaaaaaat, doesn't really like what's being pointed out. Smile

I appreciate your comment Louisa. You're right that it would most likely be helpful to acknowledge these things that my brother points out, for myself and for him. I am going to work on doing that.

Much love to you and thank you

Hi SP isn't it fun when people put their own self valuations on you.
I have had a similar situation obviously not with a twin though.
Even the same word was used and it - well that word is a boundary for me.

Like Louisabell mentioned re: being active in different areas this was always my issue with it too.
Just because one prioritizes a certain activity, or a certain way of doing something, doesn't mean that is the waywe all should be.

Lazy is sort of a shame word, expressing shame, or encouraging one to feel shame.
He is inadvertently(I hope) bringing you in on his shame/self disappointment/judgement train.

I hope I am interpreting it correctly.

Might be wishful thinking but could just suggesting you use different words maybe help with this catalyst, and communication block?

If so I would first think of changing the word lazy for something else.

Unmotivated/unstructured/etc. isn't really a shame word because you can be unmotivated about one thing because you are more motivated in another direction. Or unstructured because somethings like music/art can be better in the flow and structure can stifle that.

So if you can figure out your alternate word you can maybe have the conversation without using words that label in a negative way

So in this case I would change your brothers' "we are lazy about making music"
to
"I would really like to prioritize being more disciplined/structured about making music"

It sounds like you do not want that so then you can actually communicate about the same thing and be clear you do not want to experience making music with the same "disciplined manner" that he seeks.

Not sure if that helps or if I may have projected my own issue with that word onto your situation. Smile


RE: Other-selves and projection - Sacred Fool - 11-27-2020

(11-27-2020, 03:47 PM)sillypumpkins Wrote: I've expressed that difference to my brother, how he tends to be more "masculine" in that way when it comes to music and I tend to be more "feminine" in that way. Not like either is bad or right or anything like that, it's just clear that we each have a different mode of operation when it comes to this kinda thing. some reconciliation of the two would be ultimately beneficial i think

Along the lines of what I was saying about you supporting him more so that he can hear himself more clearly, as an experiment, you might try thinking along the lines of "the masculine being that which reaches and the feminine being that which awaits the reaching."  If you can hold that which awaits seeking (the next level), then maybe he can find his way onward?
  


RE: Other-selves and projection - Louisabell - 11-27-2020

(11-27-2020, 09:12 PM)Glow Wrote: Lazy is sort of a shame word, expressing shame, or encouraging one to feel shame.

I honestly never thought of that! Thankyou for bringing it to my attention Glow. Sorry if I made anyone feel uncomfortable by using that word.

Personally, one of my favourite past-times is lazing about, so I've never had any qualms calling myself lazy (at times). But yes, people often use the word in derogatory ways. Yet I have found that when I am biased towards laziness, I can find the most ingenious ways to be more efficient or streamline the systems in my life. I guess I was projecting my own propensity to try to see the virtue in all things... and maybe came across as too harsh as a result. BigSmile


RE: Other-selves and projection - Glow - 11-28-2020

(11-27-2020, 11:49 PM)Louisabell Wrote:
(11-27-2020, 09:12 PM)Glow Wrote: Lazy is sort of a shame word, expressing shame, or encouraging one to feel shame.

I honestly never thought of that! Thankyou for bringing it to my attention Glow. Sorry if I made anyone feel uncomfortable by using that word.

Personally, one of my favourite past-times is lazing about, so I've never had any qualms calling myself lazy (at times). But yes, people often use the word in derogatory ways. Yet I have found that when I am biased towards laziness, I can find the most ingenious ways to be more efficient or streamline the systems in my life. I guess I was projecting my own propensity to try to see the virtue in all things... and maybe came across as too harsh as a result. BigSmile
Oh I didn't at all take your comment that way. My mother-inlaw uses it your way "to laze about" and its a sweet non-shaming way to use it but by definition is a derogatory term.

from oxford dictionary
https://languages.oup.com/google-dictionary-en/

la·zy/ˈlāzē/

adjective
unwilling to work or use energy.
"he was too lazy to cook"
Similar:
idle, indolent, slothful, work-shy, shiftless, loafing, inactive,

The one person I have had catalyst with this word from is heavily shame ridden to the point he cannot be still/non productive. It is to the point of self abuse, and he admits it, work, work, work from the time they wake up to go to sleep, or they feel guilty.

Once or twice when he has been taking self care time he has referred to "us" as being lazy.

I let it slide for a while but like you were saying earlier. One can do a lot of inner work, when not physically productive, and that is work so no one gets to call me lazy.

I can't force someone to not shame themselves but no one has my consent to try to implant shame in my subconscious. I worked way to hard to get through that, I am not going back.  Tongue  Tongue


RE: Other-selves and projection - Louisabell - 11-28-2020

Glow - I stand corrected. Maybe a better phrase is "being conscientious of reserving one's energy". Smile I also think it's a culture thing. I have to say that I percieve the US as having a very strong work culture. Things are more laid back down here in Oz, but we still have a derogatory term for the same thing, which is bludging, or being a bludger.


RE: Other-selves and projection - Aion - 11-28-2020

(11-27-2020, 03:47 PM)sillypumpkins Wrote:
(11-27-2020, 01:59 AM)Aion Wrote: However, from the perspective of a musician, I have to ask the question, soooo why haven't you been able to pull it together?
Is that something you are even interested in?
Clarifying for yourself what you actually want out of the situation might help to understand the difference in perspective.

These are good questions to think about, thank you Aion.

Just gonna run off some thoughts I have on it right now.

Is it something I am even interested in? Yeah, I am interested in it. The thing is that we have recorded soooo much over the years, and still play together too without recording. We are great at just hitting record and making music, or just jamming. No thinking about what we're doing, just doing it.

So, why haven't I been able to pull it together? Well, I think that would involve changing what we do. Not totally changing it, but it would require a change of mindset. This is something we've both talked about. Communicating musical ideas verbally, really trying to figure out what we want something to sound like, and that sort of thing. Because we don't do that, it's all very off the cuff now and has been for about 5 years.

My brother has also expressed to me that he's becoming bored of making music by himself. I really like making music by myself. So that might play into it as well.

So I think a big part of why I haven't pulled it together is because that would involve some change to the way I make music with my brother. And, that can be hard for me, change, that is.


(11-27-2020, 02:24 AM)ada Wrote: I haven't much to add beside that perhaps in music making you can't always force oneself to do just it and make a song or an album, because when the inspiration comes naturally it usually plays itself quite well.

totally, and that is sort of how I operate. I've expressed that difference to my brother, how he tends to be more "masculine" in that way when it comes to music and I tend to be more "feminine" in that way. Not like either is bad or right or anything like that, it's just clear that we each have a different mode of operation when it comes to this kinda thing. some reconciliation of the two would be ultimately beneficial i think


(11-27-2020, 02:45 PM)peregrine Wrote: Sounds to me like you guys might be spinning your wheels on a level where you've used up all the catalyst, so you need to find your way to the next level of coherence.  It sounds like he might need both more space and less engagement in order to "hear himself."  You could just try striking out in new directions (with you playing more of a deliberately supporting role, perhaps) and seeing of any of those lead anywhere.  You could also meditate upon the matter and see what comes via that approach.

interesting and well-worded perspective, peregrine, thank you.

I think you are on to something when you say we might be spinning our wheels on a level where we've used up all the catalyst. We've been making music the same way for 5 years now, so that part definitely resonates with me.

there is definitely a sense of needing to operate from a higher level. I think we both feel that.

will be meditating on the matter

I also do a lot of jamming, actually with the same musical partner I mentioned. We have been jamming for almost a decade together, we can pull things out of our butts on a whim no problem. Jamming freeform is "easy". However, we can also write songs together because we've learned how to work together.

Yet, we still haven't finished recording an album, because as you say, it takes focused effort to accomplish that. It is much harder to accomplish with a full band. We have done plenty of demoes.
Like you, I enjoy making music on my own so I have been productive that way, so I get where you are coming from.

So, to put out a few more tough questions from someone on a similar level, what's wrong with expanding your horizons or taking a new approach? Would that be too much effort? (I say this with a smile, not tryin to needle ya or anything.)

On the flipside, if you have a ton of material recorded, I would argue you don't really have to "change" all that much, you just need to focus yourself, in my opinion.

I don't know if you're familiar with Krautrock at all but it's a jam-style of music with bands like Can, Acid Mothers Temple, Amun Duul II, etc, and a lot of their recordings are actually bits and pieces of all sorts of jam they have done cut together. I would say it's possible you already have a whole album of material ready to go, you just have to take the time to extract it.

However, I'm gonna lay a hard truth on you here, an album is work, a lot of work, there is no way around that, and in my humble opinion it's something you have to embrace if you want to make those "next steps" in music. Of course, there is no measure for the enjoyment of music, if you just like jamming and doing things for fun that is absolutely acceptable. I would be the first one to say just do what you enjoy doing and don't worry about others' opinions.

Yet, you have said here that DO want to accomplish such a thing, but are you willing to put in the effort to do so? Therein lies the quandary it seems.
Like Glow said, the word "lazy" here is really just a negative view of what appears to be a lack of effort, but the issue may not be a lack but rather just a matter of direction. As you say, changing direction isn't always easy.

Another question though, which may be worth considering, you said you like making music alone and you like jamming with your brother, but do you enjoy music together when you aren't just jamming or do you have a lot of different opinions?

Sometimes creative differences are very difficult to reconcile and it's almost impossible to get any forward momentum if efforts can't be unified.

Or, sometimes, you just gotta have fun! Your brother might actually find more ability to move forward if he can lighten up a bit and focus on the enjoyment of creation rather than the future idea of success.


RE: Other-selves and projection - Aion - 11-28-2020

I would also like to highlight that I definitely struggle with "productivity shame", it's a real challenge. I feel like there's so much to get done and never enough time to do it in.
More likely I just don't use the time I have available for that purpose lol but it's important to rest and enjoy leisure too.


RE: Other-selves and projection - Louisabell - 11-28-2020

I can so relate to not spending my time as productively as I had initially intended.

There can be a huge difference between "jamming with friends" versus working as a team to produce something more concrete - like an album. I think there would have to be a higher standard and the holding of each band member accountable, which maybe is the direction that your brother is trying to take.

Also, it might help to think about what the plan would be after an album is made. For example, would it interest you to perform infront of an audience? Now that would be a lot more work, probably too much. Smile

Eitherway, I hope you're able to figure this all out sillypumpkins, and much love to you back. Heart


RE: Other-selves and projection - Diana - 11-28-2020

(11-28-2020, 02:00 AM)Aion Wrote: Another question though, which may be worth considering, you said you like making music alone and you like jamming with your brother, but do you enjoy music together when you aren't just jamming or do you have a lot of different opinions?

Sometimes creative differences are very difficult to reconcile and it's almost impossible to get any forward momentum if efforts can't be unified.

Or, sometimes, you just gotta have fun! Your brother might actually find more ability to move forward if he can lighten up a bit and focus on the enjoyment of creation rather than the future idea of success.

The above from Aion I think is significant. For me, working alone is my best option, and when I work I am all in 100%. When I play, I go all in, 100%. This is my personality type, or perhaps more accurately, the optimal way I act in this world based on the dynamics of my life and its environs. It's not for everyone. I have worked with others in photo shoots for example, and my driven nature does not blend well with others who are more laid back.

Working as a team can mean different things, As an illustrator, I have worked with publishing companies and a team there—editors, project managers, proofers, etc. We worked as a team producing a book, but I, as the creator of the art, did my core work alone.

I have a friend who is musically talented. He composes music and plays more than one instrument. His brother can play some instruments, but is more technically talented. So my friend might come up with a melody, and his brother takes that (and has done), and produces electronic music. So they collaborate, but separately for part of the process doing what they do best. But I have also seen them play together in an open mic night, having fun.

My point is that rather than force the situation into one circumstance, it might be worth exploring a way that doesn't infringe on each others' tendencies and optimal processes, but rather works with them harmonically in another way. There have been famous bands that have split up in the past because the members felt held back creatively. So this is something else I would consider. And that does not mean you can't jam and play together.


RE: Other-selves and projection - Aion - 11-28-2020

Working with other musicians is incredibly fickle! I have had numerous projects fail or fall apart because of creative difference. It's not actually all that unusual, it's not always easy for artists to find a common vision.


RE: Other-selves and projection - Glow - 11-28-2020

(11-28-2020, 12:47 AM)Louisabell Wrote: Glow - I stand corrected. Maybe a better phrase is "being conscientious of reserving one's energy". Smile I also think it's a culture thing. I have to say that I percieve the US as having a very strong work culture. Things are more laid back down here in Oz, but we still have a derogatory term for the same thing, which is bludging, or being a bludger.

I can’t speak for other parts of the world.
I guess I should have said in North America and the UK lazy is derogatory.

I think you are right about the culture thing. Material productivity is king and queen here, so much hustle, and side hustle, then hustle at home, to infinity. Smile

I have finally figured out how priceless peace is and stillness. It took physical catylist of getting adrenal fatigue working 12 hour days 6-7 days a week. To force me to stop, and rest. Then over 6-7 years finally experience peace in that stillness vs guilt of nonproductivity. Smile

That’s wonderful it’s more laid back where you are.
It seems to be moving in the opposite direction here.
I have heard it called an addiction to busyness.

We are actually considering moving to the east coast( Canada) because like where you are the people are more laid back.


RE: Other-selves and projection - flofrog - 11-28-2020

Supposed laziness ( in slightly negative sense ) and artistic creation seem to always surface at some point... Smile. Just because we can make a parallel with ‘normal’ business productivity ?

I don’t know for musicians, but I know as a painter, it’s just much easier to have a disciplined schedule and paint everyday. This is where it’s probably easier for me as painting, except doing a mural with other painters, is a singular thing you do alone.
Best wishes to you all jamming musicians Wink
Silly don’t give up ever..

On edit I would like to add something about supposed laziness Wink for people as musicians or sculptors, painters, installation artists.. we are all self employed, most of the time, and we do spend inordinate amount of time in website updating, filing works, finding venues to put our our work, EPs, contracts etc.. so we are not THAT lazy or disorganized.. and do a lot of work ourselves that might be done by others if we worked in regular businesses.. lol


RE: Other-selves and projection - Louisabell - 11-28-2020

(11-28-2020, 01:33 PM)Glow Wrote: I have finally figured out how priceless peace is and stillness. It took physical catylist of getting adrenal fatigue working 12 hour days 6-7 days a week. To force me to stop, and rest. Then over 6-7 years finally experience peace in that stillness vs guilt of nonproductivity. Smile

Yikes! When did you get downtime?! Or did you not account for any downtime at all? Adrenal fatigue is understandable in that situation. So glad to hear you've been able to find balance there. Health is numero uno.

Diana Wrote:My point is that rather than force the situation into one circumstance, it might be worth exploring a way that doesn't infringe on each others' tendencies and optimal processes, but rather works with them harmonically in another way

Such a good way to think about it. I can only imagine that this kind of skill only becomes more crucial with the addition of more band members. Also, it makes best use of each member's unique skill set. And yet, if creative differences are too great, it might not be able to be remedied. Music creation can be quite a personal thing, and some members may come to feel stifled when always made to cater to another's artistic vision.


RE: Other-selves and projection - sillypumpkins - 11-30-2020

You guys are amazing! Thank you for all the words of advice, it warms my heart

@Glow - yes, it gives me whiplash! That is, people putting their own valuations on to me as though we share the same values. It's something I've struggled with, especially with my mother as well.

The thing is, I DO want to make music in a more structured way with my brother, it's just that I've always gotten the sense that my brother has such a vision for how things ought to work between us, that it really just turns me off totally. We actually talked the other day, and did our best (lol, still working on that) to express what each of us is wanting creatively within our partnership. I expressed to him that I really would like more freedom to play with ideas between the two of us, because I am getting fatigued from just jamming all the time and never really working on ideas that we can talk about. He expressed to me that he wants that too. So we are going to be more open with each other when the other has an idea and brings it to the other. We've still got some communication things to work out, but..... I'm glad we sort of got that out in the open.

A lot of the negativity surrounding the whole situation does seem to be coming from communication blocks.

Also, Glow, I love what you have to say about using different words to frame the catalyst. I've always found that so so important, and it's definitely something I am going to keep in mind especially in this situation Heart

@Aion - Lol, no I don't think it would be "too much" effort. I think it's exactly what I'm craving, as a matter of fact! I'm so tired of the same old jamming, I love it and I want to continue doing it, but I think my creative mind is really craving something more between me and my brother. I tend to be wrapped up in my own music when I'm making it because I loooooooove playing around with like melodies and samples and everything surrounding music, even the recording process. I love the freedom. And that seems to be what I've been missing with my brother and I's current configuration.

And yes, I love krautrock and am familiar with all those bands. You're definitely on to something, and it's something that we have also discussed as well (throwing together all our fav jams into an album.) I appreciate you pointing that out

Quote:Another question though, which may be worth considering, you said you like making music alone and you like jamming with your brother, but do you enjoy music together when you aren't just jamming or do you have a lot of different opinions?

Do you mean, like just experiencing music together, listening to a record and that kinda thing? We both love all the same things in music, though I do tend towards more poppy stuff while my brother is really into like noise/textured music and stuff. But there is a blend there, I still love ambient, textured, sort of stuff and implement that in my music, and my brother still loves pop music and puts that into his music some too. We are pretty compatible musically in that way.

My brother made a comment the other day that lately he's always felt that something was missing from his solo work and that he feels that what's missing is me and my sense of music. I don't really feel the same way per say about my music, but I see what he is saying. Our sensibilities blend together very well in my opinion. I think a lot of the troubles we find ourselves in is a result of a long-standing communication block between us. Not only communication between each other, but with ourselves too. Sort of like what you mentioned, not knowing what direction to go in.

And for sure, especially in the USA there is such a work-or-die attitude which kills people.... literally haha. It is important to rest and be leisurely sometimes.

@Diana - Yes, to your last point, that is exactly what I have been missing. A configuration between us that doesn't stifle each other's creativity. Like an open, free sort of process between us. The lack of that space between us, I think, has been a big part of why I am so tired of doing what we've been doing, and why I tend to work more so on my solo work.

With that being said, I also just love working on music by myself.

@Flo - Thank you flo Smile I have definitely found that having a disciplined schedule is an efficient way for me to work. Especially setting a timer for say.... 30 min, and then writing for that whole time. It's something I've always had a hard time harnessing (self-discipline), but ultimately time and time again has proven to be the most effective way for me to work (go figure, lol!)

Love you all.... and thank you


RE: Other-selves and projection - Aion - 11-30-2020

It sounds to me that the wall you are up against is that of Choice.

You love the freedom, but can you make enough decisions to put something down concrete?

Sometimes freedom can become its own cage.
Finding a direction may be as simple as CHOOSING one.

I get this, cause I also love to experiment. I literally have *checks notes* 33 working tracks at the moment in all different phases of development.

I have only just in the last month been able to organize myself to put 5 of them together as an EP. It's still not done, I went all the way through mastering, listened and got feedback, now I gotta fix a bunch of stuff in the mixes, but damnit, I'm gonna put out this EP.

This is because I had a big realization that music and most art is all about creative decisions. Art only gets done when you make decisions and follow through on them.
Sometimes these decisions are very quick, snap decisions, like in improvisation. A decision isn't long and drawn out, it's indecision that is.


RE: Other-selves and projection - Glow - 11-30-2020

(11-28-2020, 03:13 PM)Louisabell Wrote:
(11-28-2020, 01:33 PM)Glow Wrote: I have finally figured out how priceless peace is and stillness. It took physical catylist of getting adrenal fatigue working 12 hour days 6-7 days a week. To force me to stop, and rest. Then over 6-7 years finally experience peace in that stillness vs guilt of nonproductivity. Smile

Yikes! When did you get downtime?! Or did you not account for any downtime at all? Adrenal fatigue is understandable in that situation. So glad to hear you've been able to find balance there. Health is numero uno.

See there you go being logical. Wink I don’t know why I missed that.
It seems obvious now.

Down time honestly didn’t even occur to me, it was a constant combo of fight/flight channeled into productivity.

Drs basically thought I was dying - tested me for everything as I went from unlimited energy to mostly unable to function for more than 10 minutes at a time, yet was still trying to run my full business. Some of us have to learn the hard way.

I’m sure it was a preincarnative course correction as without it and the lingering effects I would never have healed what was driving me in the physical and allowed myself to focus so far into the nonmaterial.


RE: Other-selves and projection - Glow - 11-30-2020

Thank you SP for sharing your personal situation with us.

I swear over the years here I have done so lots of times and it’s amazing how for me it helps clarify everything so quickly. To the point I wonder if there is some sort of doubleing effect in a call for healing a situation or blockage just by posting it here and having so many STO otherselves read it. Something magical about it even if it’s not that.

From this side I love seeing all the amazing insight.

It’s like a SMC trying to understand/heal/clear a blockage or stumbling blocks for one of its selves.
It’s also just great getting to see how much we have in common in different ways with one another.
Humanizing of the mostly anonymous experience of forum life.

Sounds like you are finding your way through this pretty quick.
I’m happy for you and am sure with the conversation you’ve had with your brother and clarifying your own thoughts this will be resolved to become a nonissue. Smile❤️
Thanks again


RE: Other-selves and projection - Louisabell - 11-30-2020

That's beautiful Glow. I've seen this group focusing in action just a handful of times in my life, and it's spendid. It can help us see that usually the solution that we seek has been right infront of us the whole time!

To be able to draw on the life experiences of others is also such a valuable resource. Such as how Diana shares on her experiences with co-workers/friends, it makes it easier to relate to others who experience similar things.

Often, the only thing holding us back is the pressure we feel from the people on the outside and the impressions they have on us. If we are susceptible, it can draw us in any which way, and deviate us from our path. But if we let those thoughts pass through us, then we can come to find that inner voice once again.

Maybe one day I will have enough guts to really spill the beans on some of the difficulties I experience in my mundane life and put it to the group. Smile Thanks to all of you.


RE: Other-selves and projection - sillypumpkins - 11-30-2020

@Aion - Ah yes..... the Choice! That is something I have found myself contending with sooo much in the last couple years especially, at least on a more conscious level than I had growing up. A big theme in my life has been one of really resonating with freedom, free-thinking, sort of watery, flowing aspects of life. Going with the flow, not worrying, etc. The big contender is the Choice to make something out of these things that come so naturally to me, or perhaps more precisely, applying structure to the non-structure that comes naturally to me, if that makes sense? It's like I have to make amends, or reconcile, those two parts of my experience, the structure and the flow. Idk if that makes sense!

@Glow - It is sooooo wonderful having such a resonance with a group of souls like yourselves (speaking to all of you.) Like you mentioned, just throwing this stuff out there and reading what you all have to say, is healing in every sense of the word, for me at the very least. Like you said, having others read posts about my personal experience, is also magical! Because you never know who can relate in any which way. It sort of highlights why I love "healing" so much. I've gotten really into it this year especially. I can only account for myself, and with that knowledge going forward, as I learn more about myself, and share those experiences, it has a sort of resonating quality with others. Thus, healing myself is healing others too, of course Smile It highlights that we are all One, and it validates that fact as well. So, sooooo wonderful. I am sort of in awe at all Smile

Much love to you all, as always Heart