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Greater clarity on pain and suffering and the need for such catalyst - Taralie Peterdaughter - 05-26-2018
I have been reading LOO for a couple of months now almost daily. It resonates with me deeply. However I have a conflict with some of the information. It is hard for me to integrate the idea that infinite intelligence would create a density with so much pain and suffering. In all that I've read thus far...on number 87 as of now. It seems the only explanation is it is a greater catalyst for evolution. But if there are no mistakes and infinite intelligence is forever what's the hurry? Why is hurrying the process even seen as valuable? Is this dealt with in any of the questionings? It just is starting to read like this is a game to "God" or perhaps God is sado/masochistic? and I'm not finding an answer for this in any of the readings. Can anyone help!! thanks.
RE: Greater clarity on pain and suffering and the need for such catalyst - EvolvingPhoenix - 05-27-2018
(05-26-2018, 11:25 PM)Taralie Peterdaughter Wrote: I have been reading LOO for a couple of months now almost daily. It resonates with me deeply. However I have a conflict with some of the information. It is hard for me to integrate the idea that infinite intelligence would create a density with so much pain and suffering. In all that I've read thus far...on number 87 as of now. It seems the only explanation is it is a greater catalyst for evolution. But if there are no mistakes and infinite intelligence is forever what's the hurry? Why is hurrying the process even seen as valuable? Is this dealt with in any of the questionings? It just is starting to read like this is a game to "God" or perhaps God is sado/masochistic? and I'm not finding an answer for this in any of the readings. Can anyone help!! thanks.
When it comes to answering the question of what kind of god would create a world with this much suffering, I like to reffer to this article on the internet about this particular Twilight Zone episode:
https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/cant-have-the-sweet-without-the-bitter/
Check it out.
RE: Greater clarity on pain and suffering and the need for such catalyst - Highrculling - 05-27-2018
//77.15 ▶ Questioner: The specific question that I had was that it seems to me that the choice was planned to create intense polarization past third density so that experience would be intense past third density. Is this correct?
Ra: I am Ra. Given that our interpretation of your sound vibration complexes is appropriate, this is incorrect. The intensity of fourth density is that of the refining of the rough-hewn sculpture. This is, indeed, in its own way, quite intense causing the mind/body/spirit complex to move ever inward and onward in its quest for fuller expression. However, in third density the statue is forged in the fire. This is a type of intensity which is not the property of fourth, fifth, sixth, or seventh densities.//
//Your world is intended as a refinery of souls. That catalyst that comes to the surface self is seen by us as a good thing, a useful and appropriate thing, whether it feels comfortable or vastly uncomfortable. Indeed, it is the movement of the self within periods or situations of discomfort which are especially helpful in achieving maturity and a more polished or tempered realization of the nature of the self and the Creator.//. Q’uo 071110
//Firstly, we would remind all that they are in the third density. The amount of will which it takes to balance pain and the counting of blessings is enormous, and if it is not balanced, but merely suppressed, it does much more harm than good.//. Q’uo ??,??,??
I hate to say this but, in the scheme of things such intensity-based difficulty is quite playable. It will be worth it in the long run. The Creator would not give us anything we can’t handle.
RE: Greater clarity on pain and suffering and the need for such catalyst - Sprout - 05-27-2018
Quote:1.1 Questioner: It seems members of the Confederation have a specific purpose. Is this true with you, and if so, what is your purpose?
Ra: I am Ra. We communicate now. We, too, have our place. We are not those of the Love or of the Light. We are those who are of the Law of One. In our vibration the polarities are harmonized, the complexities are simplified, and the paradoxes have their solution. We are one. That is our nature and our purpose.
We are old upon your planet and have served with varying degrees of success in transmitting the Law of One, of Unity, of Singleness to your peoples. We have walked your earth. We have seen the faces of your peoples. This is not so with many of the entities of the Confederation. We found it was not efficacious. However, we then felt the great responsibility of staying in the capacity of removing the distortions and powers that had been given to the Law of One. We will continue in this until your, shall we say, cycle is appropriately ended. If not this one, then the next. We are not a part of time and, thus, are able to be with you in any of your times.
Does this give you enough information from which to extract our purpose, my brother?
I personally don't feel there is such hurry, perhaps each has their own path of evolution and seeking and some may choose to learn faster while others won't. We're all heading to the same direction via different paths, and it is alright.
A veiled illusion is somewhat an accelerated processes of evolution, the pain and suffering are a part of free will, and thus help us to "awaken" and choose polarity to discover ourselves/the creator more quickly.
I think when going through the Law of One at the beginning, there are so many messages and lessons that it feels overwhelming and that the time is now and you must act. But you have to give yourself some time and space, take what lessons you are trying to understand and accept and sit on them, meditate on them, ponder them as you enjoy living on earth with other-selves. Eventually days and months will pass and you will feel more grounded and comfortable with the learning.
There is a certain amount of understanding that one needs to learned from the Law of One, from there on it is their own inner working with the outer reality and other-selves. These are the greater lessons I believe.
RE: Greater clarity on pain and suffering and the need for such catalyst - Louisabell - 05-27-2018
This is a question I have vastly pondered. I like what Byron Katie says about this, "reality is always kinder than the stories we tell about it". I see how a lot of the pain and suffering in this world is caused by our own distortions as oppose to what the Creator has provided.
Quote:33.9 Questioner: Yes, I do. Then from this I will extrapolate the concept which is somewhat more difficult because as you have explained before, even fourth-density positive has the concept of defensive action, but above the fourth density the concept of defensive action is not in use. The concept of defensive action and [chuckle] offensive action are very much in use in this, our present experience.
I am assuming that if an entity is polarized strongly enough in his thought in a positive sense defensive action is not going to be necessary for him because the opportunity to apply defensive action will never originate for him. Is this correct?
Ra: I am Ra. This is unknowable. In each case, as we have said, an entity able to program experiences may choose the number and the intensity of lessons to be learned. It is possible that an extremely positively oriented entity might program for itself situations testing the ability of self to refrain from defensive action even to the point of the physical death of self or other-self. This is an intensive lesson and it is not known, shall we say, what entities have programmed. We may, if we desire, read this programming. However, this is an infringement and we choose not to do so.
48.8 Questioner: Who shall we say supervises the determination of further incarnation needs and sets up the seniority list, shall I say, for incarnation?
Ra: I am Ra. This is a query with two answers.
Firstly, there are those directly under the Guardians who are responsible for the incarnation patterns of those incarnating automatically, that is, without conscious self-awareness of the process of spiritual evolution. You may call these beings angelic if you prefer. They are, shall we say, “local” or of your planetary sphere.
The seniority of vibration is to be likened unto placing various grades of liquids in the same glass. Some will rise to the top; others will sink to the bottom. Layers and layers of entities will ensue. As harvest draws near, those filled with the most light and love will naturally, and without supervision, be in line, shall we say, for the experience of incarnation.
When the entity becomes aware in its mind/body/spirit complex totality of the mechanism for spiritual evolution it, itself, will arrange and place those lessons and entities necessary for maximum growth and expression of polarity in the incarnative experience before the forgetting process occurs. The only disadvantage of this total free will of those senior entities choosing the manner of incarnation experiences is that some entities attempt to learn so much during one incarnative experience that the intensity of catalyst disarranges the polarized entity and the experience thus is not maximally useful as intended.
I take away from what Ra says is that choices we make in-between lives are very different than what we want when alive. We very much have the purpose to grow and learn lessons instead of blissing out. But of course I still struggle with the types of heinous abuses that go on, and I really sympathise with the victims.
RE: Greater clarity on pain and suffering and the need for such catalyst - Infinite Unity - 05-27-2018
I agree, and another perspective, is imagine how infinite/timeless that state is in between lives. Imagine how much different the things that are important could be. I really like what you said in the first paragraph, and agree with that largely. I believe the universe is 'programmed' or nature is for maximal effiacy at every moment.
RE: Greater clarity on pain and suffering and the need for such catalyst - Sacred Fool - 05-27-2018
(05-26-2018, 11:25 PM)Taralie Peterdaughter Wrote: It is hard for me to integrate the idea that infinite intelligence would create a density with so much pain and suffering.
Can anyone help!! thanks.
Just a thought or two. First, crating conditions to allow hardship here is the only way to allow others to offer help. No suffering, no compassion and no helping.
Second, one aspect of this level of evolution is beginning to encompass the whole of the possibilities of Creation as self. There's no way to embrace the pain and tragedy without being exposed to it.
Third, there is ample capacity here for suffering, to be sure, and so many humans are biased towards making that worse. On the other hand, if we all could actually co-operate in a truly positive fashion, life here would be far less brutal, it seems to me.
I hope the material serves you well. Welcome to these forums, TP.
RE: Greater clarity on pain and suffering and the need for such catalyst - Cannon - 05-28-2018
This is an issue quite close to my heart and has caused me great despair. The reason for the possibility of suffering according to my understanding is due to our individuality, our preferences. In order to have infinite individuality, one must have preferences, and in order to manifest those preferences, one must be able to experience that which they do not prefer. The suffering of our people is the logical result of these ideas, free will, and a load of regrettable decisions made by many, many individuals. I am not totally satisfied with this answer, but to me, it means that only the possibility of suffering is necessary, not the actual experience of it. This idea provides me some comfort.
In my opinion, suffering is that which by its own nature should not be explored or studied in such ways as it is being done now on Earth or anywhere else, not even by the One Infinite Creator.
RE: Greater clarity on pain and suffering and the need for such catalyst - flofrog - 05-28-2018
(05-28-2018, 12:30 AM)Cannon Wrote: This is an issue quite close to my heart and has caused me great despair. The reason for the possibility of suffering according to my understanding is due to our individuality, our preferences. In order to have infinite individuality, one must have preferences, and in order to manifest those preferences, one must be able to experience that which they do not prefer. The suffering of our people is the logical result of these ideas, free will, and a load of regrettable decisions made by many, many individuals. I am not totally satisfied with this answer, but to me, it means that only the possibility of suffering is necessary, not the actual experience of it. This idea provides me some comfort.
In my opinion, suffering is that which by its own nature should not be explored or studied in such ways as it is being done now on Earth or anywhere else, not even by the One Infinite Creator.
Cannon,
what you are writing here reminds me of something that Ra says about suffering at one point. I think it is in the sixties sessions. He mentions how there is a way while going completely through the catalyst in a pure way, but not adding to it by some sort of dissociation too of the pain itself . This was not exactly what he said but I wish I could find that passage, I remember it made a big impression on me at the time.
RE: Greater clarity on pain and suffering and the need for such catalyst - isis - 05-28-2018
daddy Ra Wrote:There is no outward shelter in your illusion from the gusts, flurries, and blizzards of quick and cruel catalyst.
However, to the pure, all that is encountered speaks of the love and the light of the One Infinite Creator. The cruelest blow is seen with an ambiance of challenges offered and opportunities to come.
RE: Greater clarity on pain and suffering and the need for such catalyst - yossarian - 05-29-2018
(05-26-2018, 11:25 PM)Taralie Peterdaughter Wrote: I have been reading LOO for a couple of months now almost daily. It resonates with me deeply. However I have a conflict with some of the information. It is hard for me to integrate the idea that infinite intelligence would create a density with so much pain and suffering. In all that I've read thus far...on number 87 as of now. It seems the only explanation is it is a greater catalyst for evolution. But if there are no mistakes and infinite intelligence is forever what's the hurry? Why is hurrying the process even seen as valuable? Is this dealt with in any of the questionings? It just is starting to read like this is a game to "God" or perhaps God is sado/masochistic? and I'm not finding an answer for this in any of the readings. Can anyone help!! thanks.
As below, so above.
Consider the BDSM community. These people choose pain. They want pain. These people are the creator. Therefore, the creator wants pain.
Others want less pain. Yet others want no pain or moderate pain or only certain types of pain.
Must each entity experience all forns and degrees of pain? No. They are free to choose and plan for what they prefer.
Why do we, the creator, choose to experience the pain of being confused about pain? There is something we are trying to experience. Once you have fully experienced the pain of being confused about pain you will then conceive of the experience of understanding pain. This will be meaningful and satisfying though I don't know why.
RE: Greater clarity on pain and suffering and the need for such catalyst - loostudent - 05-29-2018
Welcome fellow seeker!
Much suffering is because of our free will. It's a condition for learning and growing. It's a blessing to be able to love, to allow and accept love. If only we would take more use of this opportunity we would live more in harmony and consolation. As already said some can load themselves with programed catalyst. Some are successful in using enormous catalyst e.g. Nick Vujicic.
Much suffering is amplified by our veiled perspective. There are parts in Ra Material concerned with pre-veil and post-veil conditions. The faculty of faith is mentioned. Subconscious is also mentioned. Deep down in our hearts we see things differently. Mystics have experienced a place deep inside where we're perfectly intact. Much is offered to us but it's offered through the veil "to leave room for those not wishing to hear." It's a paradox of having a more limited view and having more free room at the same time. Veils are extensions of free will. 3rd density is the density of choice.
Pain is a sensation. "Before the veil the mind could blank out pain /.../ The function of the pain at that time was to signal the body to assume a different configuration so that the source of the pain would leave, but then the pain could be eliminated mentally." In post-veil conditions we know for example the placebo effect or faith based lessening of pain. Before this veil there were also experiments with creating entities with unconscious suppression of pain. This was proven to be against survival - resulting in "nonviable body complexes or those only marginally viable".
RE: Greater clarity on pain and suffering and the need for such catalyst - Quan - 05-29-2018
(05-26-2018, 11:25 PM)Taralie Peterdaughter Wrote: I have been reading LOO for a couple of months now almost daily. It resonates with me deeply. However I have a conflict with some of the information. It is hard for me to integrate the idea that infinite intelligence would create a density with so much pain and suffering. In all that I've read thus far...on number 87 as of now. It seems the only explanation is it is a greater catalyst for evolution. But if there are no mistakes and infinite intelligence is forever what's the hurry? Why is hurrying the process even seen as valuable? Is this dealt with in any of the questionings? It just is starting to read like this is a game to "God" or perhaps God is sado/masochistic? and I'm not finding an answer for this in any of the readings. Can anyone help!! thanks.Welcome an great question to begin! It's all perspective the later densities have much more time than 3rd so by being bit tougher now makes easier later on. Ra on other hand talked bout being easier less veiled 3rd but took a lot more work for them to balance it in 5th and 6th. Given 3rd is 75000 whereas other ones get way above many many millions...
Very interesting name I must say
RE: Greater clarity on pain and suffering and the need for such catalyst - Diana - 05-29-2018
Humans are not the only beings who are in pain and suffering here, thanks to humans.
I take issue with any so-called Creator (though, by referring to the source of consciousness or existence thus may be anthropomorphizing). I personally do not like the way free will is wielded here. If humanity wants or needs to suffer for whatever reasons, fine (though it is not easy to witness). But when humans cause suffering beyond their species, I contend that is a cruel system. I would think humanity could learn compassion within its own species, since humanity is all humanity (for the most part) seems to be concerned about. Though I am open to other interpretations.
RE: Greater clarity on pain and suffering and the need for such catalyst - yossarian - 05-30-2018
(05-29-2018, 10:27 AM)Diana Wrote: Humans are not the only beings who are in pain and suffering here, thanks to humans.
I take issue with any so-called Creator (though, by referring to the source of consciousness or existence thus may be anthropomorphizing). I personally do not like the way free will is wielded here. If humanity wants or needs to suffer for whatever reasons, fine (though it is not easy to witness). But when humans cause suffering beyond their species, I contend that is a cruel system. I would think humanity could learn compassion within its own species, since humanity is all humanity (for the most part) seems to be concerned about. Though I am open to other interpretations.
Many humans are concerned about animals. Witness the animal rights movement and the many laws against animal cruelty.
Quote:95.24
Ra: [...] to the pure, all that is encountered speaks of the love and the light of the One Infinite Creator. The cruelest blow is seen with an ambiance of challenges offered and opportunities to come. Thusly, the great pitch of light is held high above such an one so that all interpretation may be seen to be protected by light.
How strange that, to the pure, even animal cruelty speaks of the love and the light of the One Infinite Creator. How can such a perspective be possible?
"A great pitch of light protects all interpretation." It is the interpretation that is protected... not the animal... not the animal's mind or body or soul or experience.
Ra is explaining cruelty by talking about "protection" BUT NOT the protection of the animal! Ra refers to the protection of the observer!
You think the animal is suffering. You see the animal suffer. No. It is NOT the animal who is suffering in this scene. It is YOU who is suffering in the way that you are witnessing.
The animal is the creator. The abuser is the creator. You are the victim--you suffer because you have been fooled by the creator's illusion.
The pure witness sees the animal as One Infinite Creator. The abuser as One Infinite Creator. Himself as One Infinite Creator.
The pure does not see the protection of the animal. The pure has his "interpretation" protected by a "great pitch of light"
You must consider this deeply.
RE: Greater clarity on pain and suffering and the need for such catalyst - Diana - 05-30-2018
(05-30-2018, 03:24 AM)yossarian Wrote:(05-29-2018, 10:27 AM)Diana Wrote: Humans are not the only beings who are in pain and suffering here, thanks to humans.
I take issue with any so-called Creator (though, by referring to the source of consciousness or existence thus may be anthropomorphizing). I personally do not like the way free will is wielded here. If humanity wants or needs to suffer for whatever reasons, fine (though it is not easy to witness). But when humans cause suffering beyond their species, I contend that is a cruel system. I would think humanity could learn compassion within its own species, since humanity is all humanity (for the most part) seems to be concerned about. Though I am open to other interpretations.
Many humans are concerned about animals. Witness the animal rights movement and the many laws against animal cruelty.
It's true that some humans care about animals. "Many" is somewhat misleading. While many people care to an extent, what I was saying is that most of humanity, from my observational standpoint, is self-centered (literally, not in a way that I'm judging them with metaphors). It's an evolutionary issue. Statistically, "many" may be only 2% or something like that. I made that percentage up—it just seems to me that most of humanity is pretty much asleep. I wasn't judging humanity; I was taking issue with a system—if it has the meaning and purpose we want to give it—that includes so much suffering.
(05-30-2018, 03:24 AM)yossarian Wrote:Quote:95.24
Ra: [...] to the pure, all that is encountered speaks of the love and the light of the One Infinite Creator. The cruelest blow is seen with an ambiance of challenges offered and opportunities to come. Thusly, the great pitch of light is held high above such an one so that all interpretation may be seen to be protected by light.
How strange that, to the pure, even animal cruelty speaks of the love and the light of the One Infinite Creator. How can such a perspective be possible?
"A great pitch of light protects all interpretation." It is the interpretation that is protected... not the animal... not the animal's mind or body or soul or experience.
Ra is explaining cruelty by talking about "protection" BUT NOT the protection of the animal! Ra refers to the protection of the observer!
You think the animal is suffering. You see the animal suffer. No. It is NOT the animal who is suffering in this scene. It is YOU who is suffering in the way that you are witnessing.
The animal is the creator. The abuser is the creator. You are the victim--you suffer because you have been fooled by the creator's illusion.
The pure witness sees the animal as One Infinite Creator. The abuser as One Infinite Creator. Himself as One Infinite Creator.
The pure does not see the protection of the animal. The pure has his "interpretation" protected by a "great pitch of light"
You must consider this deeply.
Well, I don't, and have never, contended to be so enlightened as you apparently are. I can agree with part of the above. I agree that I suffer when I see suffering. But you are leaving out the ideas of compassion and empathy.
Are you trying to say factory-farmed animals or starving children don't suffer? When I watch a person or animal crying out in horrible pain, yes, it makes me suffer too. But I can't be so glib as to look upon them and say, la la la, it's okay, it's the OIC's game and that makes it all right. Screw the OIC then. I get the idea of oneness, and manyness, and experiencing all there is—but in my mind these are intellectual considerations.
See? I'm not very enlightened. I really do not like this new agey talk about how everything is perfect and okay as is. It's not okay. And no matter why I'm here, I still take issue with suffering. Even if I'm a wanderer to spread light in darkness, why would I be doing that? Because it's perfect here?
And, I am not a blind follower of anything, including the Ra Material, though I respect most of it immensely.
To me, your above ideas are mostly intellectual statements, and I can imagine being so advanced that this whole place is seen from a different perspective. But being here in the trenches is another situation. Unless you really are so advanced, you can watch a starving child die trying to crawl to a food wagon for a handful of rice, and feel nothing but love. If you can I envy you. I'm not being sarcastic; I wish I could really feel that way.
![[Image: bringthkevincarterjpg.jpg]](http://www.bring4th.org/photos/d/diana/bringthkevincarterjpg.jpg)
Don't misunderstand me—I do understand the idea of "the pure witness" and I can, to some extent, maintain that stance with humans, who are the creators of their own species' sufferings and collective consciousness. Where it really breaks down for me, as I alluded to in my original post, is when humanity's need for suffering and the complications of self-ceneteredness bleeds out into other species (including the planet). That bothers me. And I don't have to like it.
(05-30-2018, 03:24 AM)yossarian Wrote: You must consider this deeply.
Why MUST I consider what you say? Are you the messenger of ultimate truth then? I am openminded and I consider everything that comes my way. That's where we might differ. I have only working theories, and it appears you have beliefs.
Please forgive my sarcasm—I only mean to inject some snarky humor. I really don't resonate with "absolutes."
RE: Greater clarity on pain and suffering and the need for such catalyst - Patrick - 05-30-2018
(05-26-2018, 11:25 PM)Taralie Peterdaughter Wrote: I have been reading LOO for a couple of months now almost daily. It resonates with me deeply. However I have a conflict with some of the information. It is hard for me to integrate the idea that infinite intelligence would create a density with so much pain and suffering. In all that I've read thus far...on number 87 as of now. It seems the only explanation is it is a greater catalyst for evolution. But if there are no mistakes and infinite intelligence is forever what's the hurry? Why is hurrying the process even seen as valuable? Is this dealt with in any of the questionings? It just is starting to read like this is a game to "God" or perhaps God is sado/masochistic? and I'm not finding an answer for this in any of the readings. Can anyone help!! thanks.
Indeed there is no hurry.
My take is that any parts of the Creator (i.e. us) that finds themselves within a density where such pain and suffering is available have chosen to experience this. Fully knowing what we were getting into. Might be difficult (impossible) to understand our decision while we are here, but I have faith we did indeed make that decision out of free will.
So I expect most of the Creator to never come to a place like here and instead choose to evolve more slowly, but with much less pain and suffering.
RE: Greater clarity on pain and suffering and the need for such catalyst - yossarian - 05-30-2018
(05-30-2018, 10:35 AM)Diana Wrote:(05-30-2018, 03:24 AM)yossarian Wrote: You must consider this deeply.
Why MUST I consider what you say? Are you the messenger of ultimate truth then? I am openminded and I consider everything that comes my way. That's where we might differ. I have only working theories, and it appears you have beliefs.
Please forgive my sarcasm—I only mean to inject some snarky humor. I really don't resonate with "absolutes."
Sorry, I didn't mean it like that. You are perfect as you are and there is nothing you must or mustn't do.
The way I meant it was as a quote from the Zen Buddhist Musashi Miyamoto who would end every lesson with "You must consider this deeply." By this he meant that the attempt at teaching/learning won't be successful without "deep" "consideration" of the train of thought. "Deep", in this case, meaning one pointed and focused and mulled over.
(05-30-2018, 10:35 AM)Diana Wrote: Well, I don't, and have never, contended to be so enlightened as you apparently are. I can agree with part of the above. I agree that I suffer when I see suffering. But you are leaving out the ideas of compassion and empathy.
My compassion is for you, because, in my lived experience today, I encounter you who is suffering in a spiritual/psychological way. You also suffer in a way that I am very familiar with, having been there myself just a few years ago.
The difference between my suffering then and my experience now is indigo ray activation that calls down a "great pitch of light" which tells me of the One Infinite Creator.
You feel your compassion flowing out to reach the suffering animal. As your love/light reaches out to the suffering being, you begin to hear the rushing of water, a crack of golden light breaks from above, a beam of radiation falls on you. It is warm, intelligent, and peaceful.
The beam does not fall on the animal--it falls on you. The animal stops wailing and raises his head to look into your eyes. He is no longer in pain. He has the face of the Creator. He smirks at you with deep love and understanding. The animal was the Creator all along... in your compassion you were loving the Creator, which was beautiful.
This is the view I see from indigo ray when becoming the Creator. Your example of animal suffering is perfect for exactly the reasons you give: there is no way animals deserve it. There is no karma here. There is no justification here. There is no fairness here. There is no way to rationalize human cruelty toward animals.
Yet... strangely... with indigo ray activation and the disciplines of the personality... a great pitch of light falls on your head and in the most incomprehensible suffering you discover purpose, meaning, and the love of the Creator. You are overcome with faith and belief that the Creator's infinite compassion would never forsake any animal. Though you witness unjust suffering--the Creator whispers to you that it can't be true and you believe. There is something you don't know. The animal is the Creator and is with the Creator. The Creator cares infinitely for the animal and will never and has never abandoned it. There are no mistakes. The scene can't be other than perfection.
How, from this perspective, should we relate to the animal? What should we *DO*? It says to love them. To care for them. To be there for them. To help them in whatever way you can imagine. As you have been doing.
Yet, strangely, at the same time, it says they are perfect, you are perfect, all is perfect.
(05-30-2018, 10:35 AM)Diana Wrote: Are you trying to say factory-farmed animals or starving children don't suffer? When I watch a person or animal crying out in horrible pain, yes, it makes me suffer too. But I can't be so glib as to look upon them and say, la la la, it's okay, it's the OIC's game and that makes it all right. Screw the OIC then. I get the idea of oneness, and manyness, and experiencing all there is—but in my mind these are intellectual considerations.
You are polarizing service to others. You suffer to love the animals. As Diana, the Roman Goddess of wild animals, would. Your compassion is beautiful and my eyes tear up. Beautiful.
(05-30-2018, 10:35 AM)Diana Wrote: See? I'm not very enlightened. I really do not like this new agey talk about how everything is perfect and okay as is. It's not okay. And no matter why I'm here, I still take issue with suffering. Even if I'm a wanderer to spread light in darkness, why would I be doing that? Because it's perfect here?
You made it perfect when you cared. It could not be perfect without you caring. You are involved in the scene.
When a great pitch of light is cast over your head, you will still care just as much, and your anger will still be there, but now that anger too will have a pitch of light above it, speaking of the Creator in the anger.
(05-30-2018, 10:35 AM)Diana Wrote: To me, your above ideas are mostly intellectual statements, and I can imagine being so advanced that this whole place is seen from a different perspective. But being here in the trenches is another situation. Unless you really are so advanced, you can watch a starving child die trying to crawl to a food wagon for a handful of rice, and feel nothing but love. If you can I envy you. I'm not being sarcastic; I wish I could really feel that way.
Only sometimes. I experience both sides of this issue.
(05-30-2018, 10:35 AM)Diana Wrote: Don't misunderstand me—I do understand the idea of "the pure witness" and I can, to some extent, maintain that stance with humans, who are the creators of their own species' sufferings and collective consciousness. Where it really breaks down for me, as I alluded to in my original post, is when humanity's need for suffering and the complications of self-ceneteredness bleeds out into other species (including the planet). That bothers me. And I don't have to like it.
"And I don't have to like it"
This is what polarizing further STO looks like. Passionate devotion, love, self-sacrifice, even to the point of shouting at the Creator, all for the sake of the vulnerable.
The topic of the thread is "clarity on the meaning of pain". Clarity undermines illusion, but it is illusion that helps us to polarize. So we come back to the meaning of pain... the meaning of pain is to serve as catalyst for polarization and for the Creator to know itself.
RE: Greater clarity on pain and suffering and the need for such catalyst - unity100 - 05-30-2018
(05-26-2018, 11:25 PM)Taralie Peterdaughter Wrote: I have been reading LOO for a couple of months now almost daily. It resonates with me deeply. However I have a conflict with some of the information. It is hard for me to integrate the idea that infinite intelligence would create a density with so much pain and suffering. In all that I've read thus far...on number 87 as of now. It seems the only explanation is it is a greater catalyst for evolution. But if there are no mistakes and infinite intelligence is forever what's the hurry? Why is hurrying the process even seen as valuable? Is this dealt with in any of the questionings? It just is starting to read like this is a game to "God" or perhaps God is sado/masochistic? and I'm not finding an answer for this in any of the readings. Can anyone help!! thanks.
Infinite intelligence creates the means for existence.
Each logos modifies these means a bit.
Who create the density in its final form, are its participants. Ie, when speaking of the world, its all of us, all the animal entities, plant entities, entities manifesting as rock-consciousness - ie, everything in it.
We are living in a reality of our own manufacture.
RE: Greater clarity on pain and suffering and the need for such catalyst - Minyatur - 05-30-2018
(05-30-2018, 10:58 AM)Patrick Wrote:(05-26-2018, 11:25 PM)Taralie Peterdaughter Wrote: I have been reading LOO for a couple of months now almost daily. It resonates with me deeply. However I have a conflict with some of the information. It is hard for me to integrate the idea that infinite intelligence would create a density with so much pain and suffering. In all that I've read thus far...on number 87 as of now. It seems the only explanation is it is a greater catalyst for evolution. But if there are no mistakes and infinite intelligence is forever what's the hurry? Why is hurrying the process even seen as valuable? Is this dealt with in any of the questionings? It just is starting to read like this is a game to "God" or perhaps God is sado/masochistic? and I'm not finding an answer for this in any of the readings. Can anyone help!! thanks.
Indeed there is no hurry.
My take is that any parts of the Creator (i.e. us) that finds themselves within a density where such pain and suffering is available have chosen to experience this. Fully knowing what we were getting into. Might be difficult (impossible) to understand our decision while we are here, but I have faith we did indeed make that decision out of free will.
So I expect most of the Creator to never come to a place like here and instead choose to evolve more slowly, but with much less pain and suffering.
It's exactly part of our will to experience this will as without awareness of itself.
Everything comes to be understood to be held in perfect unity, because that was always the only mean through which anything could come to manifest.
RE: Greater clarity on pain and suffering and the need for such catalyst - Minyatur - 05-30-2018
I think this quote answers well the thread :
Quote:77.17 Questioner: Now, would it be possible for this work of our density to be performed if all of the sub-Logoi chose the same polarity in any particular expression or evolution of a Logos? Let us make the assumption that our sun created nothing but, through the first distortion, there was no product except positive polarity. Would work then be done in fourth density and higher as a function only of this positive polarization evolving from our original creation of sub-Logos?
Ra: I am Ra. Elements of this query illustrate the reason I was unable to answer your previous question without knowledge of the Logos involved. To turn to your question, there were Logoi which chose to set the plan for the activation of mind/body/spirit complexes through each true-color body without recourse to the prior application of free will. It is, to our knowledge, only in an absence of free will that the conditions of which you speak obtain. In such a procession of densities you find an extraordinarily long, as you measure time, third density; likewise, fourth density. Then, as the entities begin to see the Creator, there is a very rapid, as you measure time, procession towards the eighth density. This is due to the fact that one who knows not, cares not.
Let us illustrate by observing the relative harmony and unchanging quality of existence in one of your, as you call it, primitive tribes. The entities have the concepts of lawful and taboo, but the law is inexorable and all events occur as predestined. There is no concept of right and wrong, good or bad. It is a culture in monochrome. In this context you may see the one you call Lucifer as the true light-bringer in that the knowledge of good and evil both precipitated the mind/body/spirits of this Logos from the Edenic conditions of constant contentment but also provided the impetus to move, to work and to learn.
Those Logoi whose creations have been set up without free will have not, in the feeling of those Logoi, given the Creator the quality and variety of experience of Itself as have those Logoi which have incorporated free will as paramount. Thusly you find those Logoi moving through the timeless states at what you would see as a later space/time to choose the free will character when elucidating the foundations of each Logos.
I think the Logoic work is to resonate, based on contained experiences, with portions of the unmanifest to offer their nexus of manifestation within time and space. It does not create beings so much as It creates their needed stage of expression of what they already are in the timeless. From its point of view, it is a positive sacrifice meant to move forward into foreverness and selflessness. There is no hurry to evolution, it's just ever growing in new ways and we're at our own stage of just that and in turn we will shape Creation based on our own experiences so that newer ways of being grow and learn.
Another way to put it, that all is well does not mean we need to be stuck in a single emotion of feeling things to be well at all times. We all contain a striving much more infinite than that and none of us would find actual satisfaction in that.
RE: Greater clarity on pain and suffering and the need for such catalyst - rva_jeremy - 05-31-2018
This question has bothered me too, Taralie. I think you've seen some wonderful responses in this thread.
What I can offer that has stuck with me the most and been the most satisfying comes from the Buddhist and Stoic traditions.
- Pain hurts because it opens our hearts, the tender space where all of our compassion lies. If the primary purpose of the illusion is to effect this heart opening, then should we not expect this amount of suffering?
- Pain also hurts because it provides information about where we are blocked, where our thinking is out of line with our spirit. It is information, not punishment.
- Pain and suffering are a part of a complete and balanced life. If we had no suffering, we would not recognize joy and comfort. It is crucial, I believe, to accept the full 360 degree circle of experience, for it is in the picking and choosing that we reject certain parts, and therefore have to experience them in starker relief.
Think about the apprehension you feel when you see suffering in another. There is a desire to avert our eyes and close ourselves off from that suffering to protect ourselves from hurting along with them. Are we not going against the grain here? Isn't it possible that if we accepted what we saw in front of us, if we identified with the entity hurting and saw ourselves in them, that our compassion would grow? Would it not be an unstoppable force if all of us, instead of going about our day-to-day lives knowing there are people suffering, refused to neglect the hurt it instilled in us but instead acted, similar to how those of Ra describe their response to our call, as if a part of our own bodies were in pain?
This, I believe, is the power of fourth density. It is the full transparency of individual lives that allows social memory to grow, and it starts by being willing to look and hurt along with those who are suffering, who are after all only playing their part, and a hard part it is. The key is to balance this technical purpose of suffering with the emotional depth, so that we do not simply abstract it but, more and more, allow ourselves to be swept up in it, to work with the energy of compassion and heartbreak, and through that acceptance to find ways to channel the Creator creatively so that we can play our part.
I hope this helps!
RE: Greater clarity on pain and suffering and the need for such catalyst - AnthroHeart - 05-31-2018
Pain is our deeper blockages made manifest.
We will need to be completely pure when we go through the black hole at the end of Creation.
RE: Greater clarity on pain and suffering and the need for such catalyst - loostudent - 06-01-2018
It's natural that one who is compassionate wants to protect.
Quote:33.11 Questioner: /.../ Is it possible for you to estimate which is more positively polarizing: to defend the positively oriented entity, or to allow the suppression by the negatively oriented entities? Can you answer this even?
Ra: I am Ra. This question takes in the scope of fourth density as well as your own and its answer may best be seen by the action of the entity called Jehoshua, which you call Jesus. This entity was to be defended by its friends. The entity reminded its friends to put away the sword. This entity then delivered itself to be put to the physical death. The impulse to protect the loved other-self is one which persists through the fourth density, a density abounding in compassion. More than this we cannot and need not say.
What about animals?
Once I was cleaning a room. There were grasshoppers on the floor. I was trying to catch them in a glass and carry them outside. A friendly old man saw me and said it's useless because outside the birds will eat them, it should be better to vacuum them. I asked myself if there is a difference? It is. I have responsibility for treating beings with mercy. The bird only serves his drives but we (humans) have a more evolved conciousness and inner voice (counscious). "If you were blind, you wouldn't be guilty but you remain guilty because you claim you can see." (Jesus)
Similar as with blockages is also with pain - it can be physical, mental or spiritual. Only human experiences existential emptiness. More evolved the consciousness in this veiled 3rd density illusion more deeper is one able to suffer but at the same time one can experience more joy and pleasure. The human is the biggest sufferer and the biggest pleasurer in this world. We can also bring the biggest joy or suffering to others. This is not meant only for survival because survival itself is transitive - it's leading to a higher purpose. Desire is gradually evolving to the ultimate desire so that we would eventually turn to God - the highest good. We can use free will to follow this or not. I don't know why animals were created as predators. Some even kill for fun. Was this meant as a seed leading to higher good? We also inherited animal brain but with some upgrades. We are able to leave more peacefuly. Some do some don't.
"It is natural for the mind to believe and for the will to love; so that, for want of true objects, they must attach themselves to false."
"A true or false pleasure can equally fill the mind. For what matters it that this pleasure is false, if we are persuaded that it is true?" (Blaise Pascal)
This is a good one from the movie Answer Man:
"Q: If God made everything, then why are some things bad, like, for example, the whole pain-and-suffering thing?
A: Opposites ... without things that suck, you would have no idea what good was and therefore would be directionless.
You smell s***, and you walk the other way."
RE: Greater clarity on pain and suffering and the need for such catalyst - yossarian - 06-01-2018
(06-01-2018, 05:38 PM)loostudent Wrote: Once I was cleaning a room. There were grasshoppers on the floor. I was trying to catch them in a glass and carry them outside. A friendly old man saw me and said it's useless because outside the birds will eat them, it should be better to vacuum them. I asked myself if there is a difference? It is. I have responsibility for treating beings with mercy. The bird only serves his drives but we (humans) have a more evolved conciousness and inner voice (counscious). "If you were blind, you wouldn't be guilty but you remain guilty because you claim you can see." (Jesus)
Another resolution to this paradox is to recognize that the metaphysical is not the physical.
Love and Polarity aren't physical. There is no one-to-one correspondence between physical and metaphysical. They are different realms.
There are loose patterns we see: generally loving someone means you don't stab them in the neck with a knife. But, if you're a surgeon and a peanut reaction has closed your friend's throat, maybe you stab him in the neck to save his life.
It's not the physical action that makes something polarizing. It's the internal metaphysical situation of the person taking the action.
Do you put your grasshopper outside knowing that it may just get eaten by a bird? Yes... because it is metaphysically correct.
Furthermore, in some small way, those little creatures do feel it. It's not hard to imagine that one act of kindness to a grasshopper before his short life is ended could resonate with his soul down the eons, setting off a chain reaction, blessing him with faith in the goodness of the universe despite hardships that come his way. Giving him an example, no matter how small, of compassion that he would want to emulate himself.
You can have a thousand people who are cruel but then one act of selflessness ignites a pilot light of faith, and an example of love, in the heart of the suffering.
Loving is metaphysical, and so, inherently worthwhile regardless of physical consequences.
RE: Greater clarity on pain and suffering and the need for such catalyst - kenney - 06-02-2018
pain has another wonderful effect. It creates states of self awareness. One is just blindly going along then something hurts....suddenly we see things in a totally different way. It is with the experience of pain that most come to realize that they are connected with the others around them.
From the STO slant;
One can not properly grasp true empathy without themselves experiencing first the others condition is some manner.
From the STS slant;
Pain keeps us alive in the mechanical POV that one must survive. And it drives one to understand themselves and the world around them to avoid the occurrence of pain
Pain in general is a trigger (the general meaning of catalyst) that causes self awareness.
RE: Greater clarity on pain and suffering and the need for such catalyst - zvonimir - 06-02-2018
(05-26-2018, 11:25 PM)Taralie Peterdaughter Wrote: I have been reading LOO for a couple of months now almost daily. It resonates with me deeply. However I have a conflict with some of the information. It is hard for me to integrate the idea that infinite intelligence would create a density with so much pain and suffering. In all that I've read thus far...on number 87 as of now. It seems the only explanation is it is a greater catalyst for evolution. But if there are no mistakes and infinite intelligence is forever what's the hurry? Why is hurrying the process even seen as valuable? Is this dealt with in any of the questionings? It just is starting to read like this is a game to "God" or perhaps God is sado/masochistic? and I'm not finding an answer for this in any of the readings. Can anyone help!! thanks.
Quote:“If there is a meaning in life at all, then there must be a meaning in suffering. Suffering is an ineradicable part of life, even as fate and death. Without suffering and death human life cannot be complete.https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/cant-have-the-sweet-without-the-bitter/
The way in which a man accepts his fate and all the suffering it entails, the way in which he takes up his cross, gives him ample opportunity — even under the most difficult circumstances — to add a deeper meaning to his life. It may remain brave, dignified and unselfish. Or in the bitter fight for self-preservation he may forget his human dignity and become no more than an animal. Here lies the chance for a man either to make use of or to forgo the opportunities of attaining the moral values that a difficult situation may afford him. And this decides whether he is worthy of his sufferings or not.” -Viktor Frankl, Man’s Search for Meaning
RE: Greater clarity on pain and suffering and the need for such catalyst - Taralie Peterdaughter - 06-17-2018
(05-27-2018, 03:39 AM)Highrculling Wrote: //77.15 ▶ Questioner: The specific question that I had was that it seems to me that the choice was planned to create intense polarization past third density so that experience would be intense past third density. Is this correct?
Ra: I am Ra. Given that our interpretation of your sound vibration complexes is appropriate, this is incorrect. The intensity of fourth density is that of the refining of the rough-hewn sculpture. This is, indeed, in its own way, quite intense causing the mind/body/spirit complex to move ever inward and onward in its quest for fuller expression. However, in third density the statue is forged in the fire. This is a type of intensity which is not the property of fourth, fifth, sixth, or seventh densities.//
//Your world is intended as a refinery of souls. That catalyst that comes to the surface self is seen by us as a good thing, a useful and appropriate thing, whether it feels comfortable or vastly uncomfortable. Indeed, it is the movement of the self within periods or situations of discomfort which are especially helpful in achieving maturity and a more polished or tempered realization of the nature of the self and the Creator.//. Q’uo 071110
//Firstly, we would remind all that they are in the third density. The amount of will which it takes to balance pain and the counting of blessings is enormous, and if it is not balanced, but merely suppressed, it does much more harm than good.//. Q’uo ??,??,??
I hate to say this but, in the scheme of things such intensity-based difficulty is quite playable. It will be worth it in the long run. The Creator would not give us anything we can’t handle.
in reply: Well I understand the "forged in the fire" analogy. but still it can seem like a rather ruthless invention. and I question if it is "necessary" if intelligent infinite (God) can do anything why this? and also its easy to say nobody experiences stuff that can't handle until one is forced to experience something they can't handle-people kill themselves all the time-or go crazy-or kill others in reaction to internal pain they can't handle. So that justification reads superficial to me. and plus it seems the reason for such intense catalyst is just that it moves things along quicker, which I ask what the hurry God? I mean if we have infinite lets use it!!! I guess my human mind can't wrap around it. again it just seems like a game God is playing to know itself and I don't find it particularly funny. I have a beef with God basically. As much as Ra opened up my mind to more vast expansive concepts of reality it did not quell this beef I have with "God" or intelligent/infinite or infinite/intelligence or what you want to call it.
RE: Greater clarity on pain and suffering and the need for such catalyst - Taralie Peterdaughter - 06-17-2018
(05-27-2018, 06:20 AM)Louisabell Wrote: This is a question I have vastly pondered. I like what Byron Katie says about this, "reality is always kinder than the stories we tell about it". I see how a lot of the pain and suffering in this world is caused by our own distortions as oppose to what the Creator has provided.
Quote:33.9 Questioner: Yes, I do. Then from this I will extrapolate the concept which is somewhat more difficult because as you have explained before, even fourth-density positive has the concept of defensive action, but above the fourth density the concept of defensive action is not in use. The concept of defensive action and [chuckle] offensive action are very much in use in this, our present experience.
I am assuming that if an entity is polarized strongly enough in his thought in a positive sense defensive action is not going to be necessary for him because the opportunity to apply defensive action will never originate for him. Is this correct?
Ra: I am Ra. This is unknowable. In each case, as we have said, an entity able to program experiences may choose the number and the intensity of lessons to be learned. It is possible that an extremely positively oriented entity might program for itself situations testing the ability of self to refrain from defensive action even to the point of the physical death of self or other-self. This is an intensive lesson and it is not known, shall we say, what entities have programmed. We may, if we desire, read this programming. However, this is an infringement and we choose not to do so.
48.8 Questioner: Who shall we say supervises the determination of further incarnation needs and sets up the seniority list, shall I say, for incarnation?
Ra: I am Ra. This is a query with two answers.
Firstly, there are those directly under the Guardians who are responsible for the incarnation patterns of those incarnating automatically, that is, without conscious self-awareness of the process of spiritual evolution. You may call these beings angelic if you prefer. They are, shall we say, “local” or of your planetary sphere.
The seniority of vibration is to be likened unto placing various grades of liquids in the same glass. Some will rise to the top; others will sink to the bottom. Layers and layers of entities will ensue. As harvest draws near, those filled with the most light and love will naturally, and without supervision, be in line, shall we say, for the experience of incarnation.
When the entity becomes aware in its mind/body/spirit complex totality of the mechanism for spiritual evolution it, itself, will arrange and place those lessons and entities necessary for maximum growth and expression of polarity in the incarnative experience before the forgetting process occurs. The only disadvantage of this total free will of those senior entities choosing the manner of incarnation experiences is that some entities attempt to learn so much during one incarnative experience that the intensity of catalyst disarranges the polarized entity and the experience thus is not maximally useful as intended.
I take away from what Ra says is that choices we make in-between lives are very different than what we want when alive. We very much have the purpose to grow and learn lessons instead of blissing out. But of course I still struggle with the types of heinous abuses that go on, and I really sympathise with the victims.
thank you for such a well thought out response. I think this is as close to an answer as I can get. There is no justification for this decision by "God" to allow for such catalyst because that is the very nature of what it is to be me. If that makes sense. If it were possible for me to be cool with it then it wouldn't be the thing that it is. Like how Jesus said on the cross "God why have you forsaken me" and then he died. Its like that sense of being totally lost and vulnerable is the very essence of why jesus was then able to die for the sins of others as an example...before that he was not ready perhaps. so it is just not possible for me to understand and that just is. so my feelings of being very upset at God is just the way it is for me to be human and I don't think I'll ever be able to reconcile that. I dunno.
RE: Greater clarity on pain and suffering and the need for such catalyst - Taralie Peterdaughter - 06-17-2018
(05-28-2018, 12:30 AM)Cannon Wrote: This is an issue quite close to my heart and has caused me great despair. The reason for the possibility of suffering according to my understanding is due to our individuality, our preferences. In order to have infinite individuality, one must have preferences, and in order to manifest those preferences, one must be able to experience that which they do not prefer. The suffering of our people is the logical result of these ideas, free will, and a load of regrettable decisions made by many, many individuals. I am not totally satisfied with this answer, but to me, it means that only the possibility of suffering is necessary, not the actual experience of it. This idea provides me some comfort.
In my opinion, suffering is that which by its own nature should not be explored or studied in such ways as it is being done now on Earth or anywhere else, not even by the One Infinite Creator.
I like what you said : it means that only the possibility of suffering is necessary, not the actual experience of it. This is food for thought for me. Yes it is an ongoing struggle for me as well, since I have always believed all life is one. I have always felt even as a child that at some point in time I would experience everything experienced and of course as I look around me that idea scares me terribly. I am under the new belief that God isn't actually as all powerful as we as humans conceive that to be, that perhaps God is the subject of its own rules and laws and self knowledge and free will are two rules it must abide by??!!!