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Intelligence, Determinism and Free Will - Foha - 02-12-2018
My current hypothesis of what intelligence is:
What if instead of intelligence being an attribute someone has at how adept they are at engineering a solution to a problem, or something difficult to describe using an algorithm or some complex understanding, it is instead something closely tied to consciousness. Perhaps we really do let ideas come to us like the synchronicity of events and catalyst when it enters our lives. Perhaps we yearn for an experience, and it manifests in the shortest chain of events of least resistance... And this usually involves coming to an idea in our heads to help keep events in motion towards an experience we yearn for. Maybe an idea coming to us is simply the most noticeable effect of yearning for an experience, and it actually happens more often in different ways. Maybe what many attribute to intelligence, like it simply being an attribute of our personality like a strength or weakness of the mind, is actually an attraction between the observer and the observed.
One such way I have thought of this is that before every tick of time that moves forward, our consciousness wills to experience the next tiny leap forwards in time. In this act, it wills to experience something, and in doing so leaps forward down an alternate timeline. Perhaps this happens at an infinite scale, and consciousness splits into infinite parallel timelines that experiences every possible conceived outcome of the previous event. So instead of time seeming like it is right now, instead it is an illusion. And, there would be both free will and determinism if you were to think of the fabric of space-time as a hyper-dimensional object similar to film in a movie; where each frame is just another tiny leap forward, and every tiny leap forward possible is expressed and fulfilled. Thus, you do choose one of the infinite outcomes, but it already existed and always will.
This train of thought was from building on a thought experiment I was using to cope with my fear of death.
I tried to come to terms with the idea that perhaps I, and my ego, are not me at all. That when I die, I will cease to think or experience the same way I identify with now.
In doing so I have eased my fear of death dramatically, and gained some insight on what to think of intelligence.
Perhaps instead of identifying as a brain, or as the thoughts in my head, I can instead identify with my experiences and reactions to them.
Currently, I try to identify more with my initial reaction to experiences I have, and my emotional responses. I found this more suitable than finding pride in an attribute I was born with or gifted by chance. I am lucky to not have been born with learning disabilities or any other inhibition. But for that, I feel that I must be thankful and not proud.
I'd be interested in anyone else's ideas about what intelligence might be.
Thanks for reading this giant post
I'd love to read your ideas, especially if they contradict my own. I am still learning, and I would love to learn with you.
RE: Intelligence, Determinism and Free Will - Louisabell - 02-13-2018
(02-12-2018, 11:30 PM)Desynched Wrote: My current hypothesis of what intelligence is:
What if instead of intelligence being an attribute someone has at how adept they are at engineering a solution to a problem, or something difficult to describe using an algorithm or some complex understanding, it is instead something closely tied to consciousness. Perhaps we really do let ideas come to us like the synchronicity of events and catalyst when it enters our lives. Perhaps we yearn for an experience, and it manifests in the shortest chain of events of least resistance... And this usually involves coming to an idea in our heads to help keep events in motion towards an experience we yearn for. Maybe an idea coming to us is simply the most noticeable effect of yearning for an experience, and it actually happens more often in different ways. Maybe what many attribute to intelligence, like it simply being an attribute of our personality like a strength or weakness of the mind, is actually an attraction between the observer and the observed.
Interesting hypothesis, I do relate somewhat. When I think of my own intelligence I see how my thoughts just pop into my head as they will and at the speed they do. Both aren’t really functions that I control, my brain feeling more like a net that “catches” thoughts then a generator of thought itself. But I guess we are not privy to the subconscious, and its mechanisations, if that’s how it even works. So I suppose you’re saying that IQ would be linked to one’s desire for IQ? This is a possibility, but many people will say your IQ is steady throughout your life with little change. But then many people also have a stable personality, so I could imagine if you make conscious choices to be more, well conscious, then your intelligence may indeed increase in speed. Is this what you are saying?
(02-12-2018, 11:30 PM)Desynched Wrote: One such way I have thought of this is that before every tick of time that moves forward, our consciousness wills to experience the next tiny leap forwards in time. In this act, it wills to experience something, and in doing so leaps forward down an alternate timeline. Perhaps this happens at an infinite scale, and consciousness splits into infinite parallel timelines that experiences every possible conceived outcome of the previous event. So instead of time seeming like it is right now, instead it is an illusion. And, there would be both free will and determinism if you were to think of the fabric of space-time as a hyper-dimensional object similar to film in a movie; where each frame is just another tiny leap forward, and every tiny leap forward possible is expressed and fulfilled. Thus, you do choose one of the infinite outcomes, but it already existed and always will.
I see it differently than this. In space/time, space is 3-dimensional and time is 1-dimensional. Therefore, the inverse of this in time/space would be a place with 3-dimensional time and 1-dimensional space. I imagine it to be a place where there are massive amounts of time in which a consciousness could “speculate” on possible timelines, but with not enough space to engage in cause and effect dynamics. This would be reflected in some of the funky quantum stuff, where light behaves as a wave function in time/space, but breaks down to a particle in space/time.
A choice is something very special because it occurs at a nexus where space/time and time/space co-exist. When a choice is made, certain timelines that were speculated on break-down and others strengthen. I think 3-dimensional time opens up the possibility of time being highly malleable, and therefore timelines would be able to be Co-Created in the eternal present. As Co-Creators, total freewill needs to be a reality. I don’t agree with determinism at all really.
(02-12-2018, 11:30 PM)Desynched Wrote: This train of thought was from building on a thought experiment I was using to cope with my fear of death.
I tried to come to terms with the idea that perhaps I, and my ego, are not me at all. That when I die, I will cease to think or experience the same way I identify with now.
In doing so I have eased my fear of death dramatically, and gained some insight on what to think of intelligence.
Perhaps instead of identifying as a brain, or as the thoughts in my head, I can instead identify with my experiences and reactions to them.
I’ve had times when I woke up so quickly out of a dream that I am fully conscious but had forgotten who I was or where I was. Then I get what feels like my “personality download” where all the information becomes available again. I imagine that experience is something familiar, knowing that we can be conscious without the particular personality that we experience now?
(02-12-2018, 11:30 PM)Desynched Wrote: Currently, I try to identify more with my initial reaction to experiences I have, and my emotional responses. I found this more suitable than finding pride in an attribute I was born with or gifted by chance. I am lucky to not have been born with learning disabilities or any other inhibition. But for that, I feel that I must be thankful and not proud.
I agree. I like what Matt Kahn says about this. To know who you truly are ask: who do I become when I don’t get my way? Our spontaneous genuine reactions to things can say a lot.
(02-12-2018, 11:30 PM)Desynched Wrote: I'd be interested in anyone else's ideas about what intelligence might be.
Thanks for reading this giant post
I'd love to read your ideas, especially if they contradict my own. I am still learning, and I would love to learn with you.
Yes, it's great to entertain such metaphysical things with others!
RE: Intelligence, Determinism and Free Will - sunnysideup - 02-13-2018
Interesting thoughts, Desynched. I personally think that one's intelligence might be a pre-incarnative decision just like other mental or physical limitations and distortions one might have. I actually find your notion of an infinite array of parallel timelines not hard to concieve, I mean in an infinite creation I assume everything is possible. The Seth Material talks about these parallel universes and the multidimensional personality more in depth if you are interested in reading about it. There's also an excerpt in the Ra Material that touches on this.
36.3 Questioner: Out of the Seth Material we have a statement here: Seth says that each entity here on Earth is one aspect or part of a higher self or Oversoul which has many aspects or parts in many dimensions all of which learn lessons which enable the higher self to progress in a balanced manner. Am I to understand from this, is it correct that there are, shall we say, possibly many experiences similar to the one that we experience here in the third density that are governed by a single higher self? Is this correct?
Ra: I am Ra. The correctness of this statement is variable. The more in balance an entity becomes, the less the possibility/probability vortices may need to be explored in parallel experiences.
RE: Intelligence, Determinism and Free Will - Infinite Unity - 02-13-2018
One of The mechanisms/analog for pre-incarnate determination of intelligence, is interest/environment.
Interest is intertwined with intelligence. What you are interested in, you will learn. However often times the possibility of interest is influenced/shaped by the environment.
From the other side, its a lot like computer programming. In that to reach the desired outcome/experience, certain variables are used to manipulate that incarnation. Often times an indirect/in-verse effect is the point that your working from, to here. (pre-incarnative)
However I would agree with your observations. To me I see it more of an artificial system, in which we use packets of data, that are rendered from the creator. Some how the thoughts are signified/coded and a constant stream of input/output of information/data is set into motion, quit like chemical reactions. Each thought is coded with what we think of as paths, which are really significators to the system on which thought to send in return. So your like a false echo. That thinks its real, due to the sender or real echo. Constantly sending vibrations you "called" for with your "thoughts" and the significators within the thoughts.
RE: Intelligence, Determinism and Free Will - Foha - 02-13-2018
(02-13-2018, 02:49 AM)Louisabell Wrote: So I suppose you’re saying that IQ would be linked to one’s desire for IQ?I think it is possible. What I'm suggesting is an explanation for manifesting reality... So if someone has a learning disability or problems inhibiting them to think of a solution, their yearning will find another chain of events to manifest an experience they yearn for.
For example, if someone attempts telekenisis, they will fight with themselves because the shortest path for a chain of events to move something is to use their limbs. To refuse to use this chain of events causes a frustrating struggle. If they persist, the object might move due to outside forces and coincidences. But their goal is to usually manifest one of the less probable chain of events, where the object moves by some unseen force.
However, I'm suggesting this happens all the time and is responsible for intelligent behavior.
(02-13-2018, 02:49 AM)Louisabell Wrote: I see it differently than this. In space/time, space is 3-dimensional and time is 1-dimensional. Therefore, the inverse of this in time/space would be a place with 3-dimensional time and 1-dimensional space. I imagine it to be a place where there are massive amounts of time in which a consciousness could “speculate” on possible timelines, but with not enough space to engage in cause and effect dynamics. This would be reflected in some of the funky quantum stuff, where light behaves as a wave function in time/space, but breaks down to a particle in space/time.
Your perspective is very similar to what Ra speaks of. It's interesting and I'm still mulling it over, myself.
I love how strange the universe at the quantum scale can get!
(02-13-2018, 02:49 AM)Louisabell Wrote: A choice is something very special because it occurs at a nexus where space/time and time/spThank you for your honest opinion
ace co-exist. When a choice is made, certain timelines that were speculated on break-down and others strengthen. I think 3-dimensional time opens up the possibility of time being highly malleable, and therefore timelines would be able to be Co-Created in the eternal present. As Co-Creators, total freewill needs to be a reality. I don’t agree with determinism at all really.
(02-13-2018, 02:49 AM)Louisabell Wrote: I’ve had times when I woke up so quickly out of a dream that I am fully conscious but had forgotten who I was or where I was. Then I get what feels like my “personality download” where all the information becomes available again. I imagine that experience is something familiar, knowing that we can be conscious without the particular personality that we experience now?I've rarely experienced this, but it reminds me of coming to after passing out, haha.
(02-13-2018, 02:49 AM)Louisabell Wrote: Yes, it's great to entertain such metaphysical things with others!
Well, I really appreciate you. Thank you so much.
Phew, I think I will rather reply on a computer next time rather than my phone!
RE: Intelligence, Determinism and Free Will - Foha - 02-13-2018
Thanks for the reference to the Seth material, sunnysideup! I've been meaning to read it.
Infinite Unity, thank you. I can relate to computer programming.
Edit: I just realized you modified your message. I re read it just now and was surprised to read something new! I like the analogy with packets and networking. However your use of 'significator' has made me feel less confident in understanding, as I have only just begun to study the tarot as suggested by Ra. Thank you for the food for thought, Infinite Unity.
RE: Intelligence, Determinism and Free Will - Minyatur - 02-13-2018
(02-13-2018, 02:49 AM)Louisabell Wrote: A choice is something very special because it occurs at a nexus where space/time and time/space co-exist. When a choice is made, certain timelines that were speculated on break-down and others strengthen. I think 3-dimensional time opens up the possibility of time being highly malleable, and therefore timelines would be able to be Co-Created in the eternal present. As Co-Creators, total freewill needs to be a reality. I don’t agree with determinism at all really.
Free will is the first distortion/illusion of experience, its first paradox, and ultimately I think there is no choice to the fact that You are, and from this cause are all intelligent effects that make Infinity what it is.
I think the entire focus of the Ra material upon acceptance lies in the fact that choice is illusion, there's always just intelligent distillation to find acceptance of what simply cannot not be. Co-Creators are nexuses of point of views of what is a unified beingness. They're not separate enough that each truly has a unique ability to make choice, instead I think is reflected the same potentiated ability of choice from within focuses relative to one another, or you could say from unique circumstances to repeat the same choices and see under what circumstances a choice can be understood and accepted to be made in the reflection of what you are.
If we take a look at these simple steps :
Quote:Ra: I am Ra. The heart of the discipline of the personality is threefold. One, know yourself. Two, accept yourself. Three, become the Creator
I think to become the Creator means to acknowledge (know and accept) your nature as free potential. You don't need to be everything in your sense of now, but you need to know and accept that you are everything across all moments to become the Creator (consciously) and that is deterministic.
That's kinda everything the Law of One is :
Quote:You are not speaking of similar or somewhat like entities or things. You are every thing, every being, every emotion, every event, every situation. You are unity. You are infinity. You are love/light, light/love. You are. This is the Law of One.
This is the Law of One. You are. To me that is determinism, try to unmake that
RE: Intelligence, Determinism and Free Will - Louisabell - 02-14-2018
(02-13-2018, 08:10 PM)Elros Wrote: Free will is the first distortion/illusion of experience, its first paradox, and ultimately I think there is no choice to the fact that You are, and from this cause are all intelligent effects that make Infinity what it is.
I believe the Infinite Creator, in its infinite wisdom, knew that if it wanted to “experiment” by creating an illusion to know itself, would give its offspring (its co-creators or sub-logoi) their own freewill in which to learn new ways of being. The experiment is an illusion in that all is a fractal of the One (there is no separation), but the knowledge that is gained about what the One Infinite Creator is and is not, cannot be said to be an illusion, in that information/data stands alone and has its own merit.
Therefore to learn, to grow and to evolve has inherent within it the primacy function of the freewill distortion, so to say that freewill is only an illusion because it was the first distortion from infinity, is to also say that this reality we find ourselves in has no merit in being. It is as if by denying freewill you are choosing to “turn off the lights” and instead prefer primordial darkness over what we truly have now, an Infinite Creator which is infinitely curious.
(02-13-2018, 08:10 PM)Elros Wrote: I think the entire focus of the Ra material upon acceptance lies in the fact that choice is illusion, there's always just intelligent distillation to find acceptance of what simply cannot not be. Co-Creators are nexuses of point of views of what is a unified beingness. They're not separate enough that each truly has a unique ability to make choice, instead I think is reflected the same potentiated ability of choice from within focuses relative to one another, or you could say from unique circumstances to repeat the same choices and see under what circumstances a choice can be understood and accepted to be made in the reflection of what you are.
To accept is to make the choice to accept; therefore choice is not simply an illusion because there is also the choice to reject, and therein lies the power to explore what the Creator is and what it is not. I said that conscious choices are made in a nexus of space/time and time/space because a choice is always made in the present moment. The present moment is where space and time are both 3 dimensional. Even the most troubled and undisciplined mind needs to make choices in the moment; therefore making conscious choices are where our power lies (we can move space and time). It has been said by an awakened master that to spend an entire hour in silence is enough to reach nirvana; that is how pregnant the present moment is with power.
And this is my problem with determinism as an ideology, it takes away our power, when indeed every mind/body/spirit complex are sub-sub-Logoi, and therefore have the honor/duty to co-create and re-create along with all other Logoi.
(02-13-2018, 08:10 PM)Elros Wrote: If we take a look at these simple steps :
Quote:Ra: I am Ra. The heart of the discipline of the personality is threefold. One, know yourself. Two, accept yourself. Three, become the Creator
I think to become the Creator means to acknowledge (know and accept) your nature as free potential. You don't need to be everything in your sense of now, but you need to know and accept that you are everything across all moments to become the Creator (consciously) and that is deterministic.
That's kinda everything the Law of One is :
Quote:You are not speaking of similar or somewhat like entities or things. You are every thing, every being, every emotion, every event, every situation. You are unity. You are infinity. You are love/light, light/love. You are. This is the Law of One.
This is the Law of One. You are. To me that is determinism, try to unmake that
To know that you are all things does not necessarily mean that you must deny that you also have a point of view. This point of view is where your consciousness resides and is where you have the right to make conscious choices which affect the Creation. You can be a Co-Creator and still look across the plane at another entity and say “yes, that is also me living another life”.
Yet Ra does imply that The Law of One in its complete form is more a sixth-density wanderer philosophy, and also just another step in the progression back to the Creator. And a sixth-density spirit has literally traversed eons of time to collect experience to bring back to the Creator.
Quote:3.10 Questioner: Then if an individual is totally informed with respect to the Law of One and lives, and is the Law of One, such things as the building of a pyramid by direct mental effort would be commonplace. Is that what I am to understand? Am I correct?
Ra: I am Ra. You are incorrect in that there is a distinction between the individual power through the Law of One and the combined, or societal memory complex mind/body/spirit understanding of the Law of One.
In the first case only the one individual, purified of all flaws, could move a mountain. In the case of mass understanding of unity, each individual may contain an acceptable amount of distortion and yet the mass mind could move mountains. The progress is normally from the understanding which you now seek to a dimension of understanding which is governed by the laws of love, and which seeks the laws of light. Those who are vibrating with the Law of Light seek the Law of One. Those who vibrate with the Law of One seek the Law of Foreverness.
We cannot say what is beyond this dissolution of the unified self with all that there is, for we still seek to become all that there is, and still are we Ra. Thus our paths go onward.
RE: Intelligence, Determinism and Free Will - Foha - 02-14-2018
Another reason I have come to believe that both determinism and/or free will have the potential of being correct is due to experiences I've endured.
I think it is extremely difficult to truly change your own belief without good reasons.
I unfortunately/fortunately have been able to experience events that described by 2nd hand accounts seem like hallucinations or mass hysteria, while the 1st hand witnesses are given a strange choice to accept the event as one way or another.
I also have experiences that seem to confirm the idea that people are like walking antennas that tune into a perception of reality. A very small (and somewhat literal) example is when I and another person listened to a radio without an antenna, which had difficulty honing in on a station. However, when I put my fingers on it, it would snap into clarity for a rock station (which is coincidentally my preferred genre), while another gentleman could make it snap into his preferred type of channel: country. Both stations were near the frequencies the radio was tuned to pick up, but without either of our fingers on the spot where an antenna once was, it would become more of a garble of static. This was in a suicidal/depressive ward, and one person came in who was noticeably severely disturbed. This man was shaking with his hands clasped in prayer, but was shivering in a warm room. He got within 3 meters of the radio when it was playing somewhat clear music, and it turned to louder static. It was so disarming that we led him away from the radio, and the radio "calmed down" more the farther away he got.
I think there's some merit in the idea that we not only perceive our reality, but project it as well. Here is a link to a YouTube video of a TED talk presenter that describes in better detail than I can.
I realize it sounds like a cop-out to just accept something blanketing like "everything exists", or "anything is true", but I find it comforting as a possibility.
Edit:
I am saying that I really enjoy Elros description as well as Louisabell's. Perhaps I am mincing words to accept both of your interpretations of what reality is, but I just want you to both know that I enjoy them both greatly.
I resonate with the acceptance of the possibility of determinism when I have found the idea to be scary to think about in the past. To wholly accept a possibility I feared as being a potential reality is difficult but worth the effort for me. To accept determinism used to feel like I'd accept that nothing I do is original or mine, and it felt like it robs me of my creativity, or worse makes creativity meaningless. Instead, I think what I accept now is that perhaps what I see as free will is something more, rather than less, than it really is. Maybe that ends up making free will nothing like its original definition, and perhaps determinism may describe it better, or vice versa. Either way, I feel like I can accept either possibility as a potential - one that may change in the future.
RE: Intelligence, Determinism and Free Will - MangusKhan - 02-14-2018
It is alluded to in the material that free will is a paradox. So you're correct no matter which side you want to argue.
That story about the psyche ward is pretty neat. I'm just reading about psycho-electrical phenomena now, so it's cool to hear your experience with that radio. That shivering guy must have had some serious affliction to his nervous system to be able to project all that scrambled energy. Psyche wards are fascinating places.
RE: Intelligence, Determinism and Free Will - Infinite Unity - 02-14-2018
(02-14-2018, 05:43 AM)MangusKhan Wrote: It is alluded to in the material that free will is a paradox. So you're correct no matter which side you want to argue.
That story about the psyche ward is pretty neat. I'm just reading about psycho-electrical phenomena now, so it's cool to hear your experience with that radio. That shivering guy must have had some serious affliction to his nervous system to be able to project all that scrambled energy. Psyche wards are fascinating places.
Free will is a paradox, due to there only being one will, also its not so much "free-will" in how we think of it, as much as it is confusion.
RE: Intelligence, Determinism and Free Will - Minyatur - 02-14-2018
(02-14-2018, 12:50 AM)Louisabell Wrote: It is as if by denying freewill you are choosing to “turn off the lights” and instead prefer primordial darkness over what we truly have now, an Infinite Creator which is infinitely curious.
I don't really see it that way. I think to perceive beyond free will is to acknowledge the reflection of white light in all colors. Free will in its own root, as an emerging intelligent principle/potential of Source, I think already contains all harvests of all its potentials, of which the weight through timelessness coalesces into free will potentiated, and so it is never without a thing but already the expression of the unity of its potentials.
There is no without an Infinite Creator which is infinitely curious, because it is in its nature to be what it is more than there is a choice to be that.
(02-14-2018, 01:31 AM)Desynched Wrote: I resonate with the acceptance of the possibility of determinism when I have found the idea to be scary to think about in the past. To wholly accept a possibility I feared as being a potential reality is difficult but worth the effort for me. To accept determinism used to feel like I'd accept that nothing I do is original or mine, and it felt like it robs me of my creativity, or worse makes creativity meaningless. Instead, I think what I accept now is that perhaps what I see as free will is something more, rather than less, than it really is. Maybe that ends up making free will nothing like its original definition, and perhaps determinism may describe it better, or vice versa. Either way, I feel like I can accept either possibility as a potential - one that may change in the future.
Determinism to me really is a matter of that everything we call illusion/paradox/distortion merely reflect beingness as an aspect of it. So free will is neither the beginning and ending of our beings, but the beginning and ending of intelligent experiences which require to be rooted in it to be had.
It is really not a sad thought, or at least not to me, there's more like the awe and wonder of what this tells about the fundamental essence of our beings which lie in true simultaneity and unity. In all expressions, you will always be what you are expressed.
RE: Intelligence, Determinism and Free Will - MangusKhan - 02-14-2018
(02-14-2018, 10:14 AM)Infinite Unity Wrote:(02-14-2018, 05:43 AM)MangusKhan Wrote: It is alluded to in the material that free will is a paradox. So you're correct no matter which side you want to argue.
That story about the psyche ward is pretty neat. I'm just reading about psycho-electrical phenomena now, so it's cool to hear your experience with that radio. That shivering guy must have had some serious affliction to his nervous system to be able to project all that scrambled energy. Psyche wards are fascinating places.
Free will is a paradox, due to there only being one will, also its not so much "free-will" in how we think of it, as much as it is confusion.
Right, confusion also being synonymous with distortion, as we think of thought and energy as unified concepts. Confusion/distortion leading then to more possibilities. With this in mind, the Luciferian creation can be seen not as the introduction of free-will so much as it is simply a significant increase in confusion/distortion. Then you/creator can get many different outcomes, which altogether leads to a deeper experience of self.
RE: Intelligence, Determinism and Free Will - Infinite Unity - 02-15-2018
I also look at paradox, as "pair of docks", in that if you knew the true variables, it would no longer appear as a paradox. Such as if you knew there were a pair of docks, and not only one dock.
If your seeing paradox, it means the variables your calculating with, are not the true variables.
RE: Intelligence, Determinism and Free Will - Foha - 02-15-2018
I will be finding time to read up on Seth material and some other leads I've obtained since creating this thread.
I am very grateful for the sharing in this thread. It's teaching me to be more open with my thoughts in this forum.
Thank you everyone
RE: Intelligence, Determinism and Free Will - Glow - 02-15-2018
(02-13-2018, 08:10 PM)Elros Wrote:Quote:You are not speaking of similar or somewhat like entities or things. You are every thing, every being, every emotion, every event, every situation. You are unity. You are infinity. You are love/light, light/love. You are. This is the Law of One.
This is the Law of One. You are. To me that is determinism, try to unmake that
Great post. I just have to say I could read that last quote over and over and over it is the most beautiful thing. Music and medicine.