+- Bring4th (https://www.bring4th.org/forums)
+-- Forum: Bring4th Studies (https://www.bring4th.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=1)
+--- Forum: Strictly Law of One Material (https://www.bring4th.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=2)
+--- Thread: Thoughts on will, love, light of Creator (/showthread.php?tid=10971)
Thoughts on will, love, light of Creator - 4Dsunrise - 05-30-2015
4dphilosophyproject (at) gmail.com
If you have a serious interest in developing the IUP/AOP and producing a philosophical treatise and curriculum for mainstream university study send an email. Elaborate on what your goals are and what specific interests you may have related to this project.
Note to everyone:
I type up most of my posts ahead of time so they're in a form that is what you'd call pedantic so they can be reworked and used in the treatise and curriculum project. More posts to come on this topic.
Hi B4 Researchers
Given Ra's assertion of the Primal Triad of Free Will, Love and Light is will on the same level of being as love and light? Is there a will of the Creator? Christianity uses the phrase "it's God's will" to explain unknown phenomena. Hatonn refers to the Creator as the Father so they're asserting a patriarchal god with anthropomorphic character. So does that not translate into a being with will?
Is will subsumed by love and light in some unexplainable way? Does will play a subordinate role as a type of love or type of light? I don't think so. I think will is foundational and just as important as love and light.
I do think, rightly so, that the Confederation channels make it a top priority to be at the highest level of concern and focus towards conveying the +4D message to the 3D population of Earth. They're not here to teach a full course on metaphysics. 3D is not a density of understanding so they don't want to elaborate on how the will of the Creator factors in on love/light and light/love -- especially since it provides a rationale for the negative polarity.
An example of this here:
The notion of intelligent energy as love/light and light/love is valid in terms of well-founded and well-intentioned will, but there is the Free Will principle which allows for the expression of the other polarity. So there's the possible notion of a negative intelligent energy based on ill will that can be used to create discordant chaos and distorted malformations. Black magicians and Maldek-type disasters. Asteroid bombardment and solar CME's hitting a planet may also be a coarse manifestion of this type of intelligent energy.
The rest of the post is for quick descriptions that will be revised and used for later posts -- especially towards deriving from the IUP/AOP a Dynamic Hexad model of will/love, love/will, will/light, light/will, love/light, light/love. The notions of unbound/bound and free/deterministic are being considered as well.
Feel free to give comments and ask questions. I need the feedback.
Various notions of how will is described and used.
the chakras and densities
the will to survive and reproduce
the will to move and grow towards enlightenment
the will to become self-aware
the will to love universally
the will to express and explore
the will to trust the universe
the will to be all and whole
ill will -- well will -- purposeful will -- free unbound will -- restricted bound will -- deterministic will
ill-founded will -- well-founded will -- unfounded will (?)
will/love -- will is the enabler, gives power and energy to love and directs love
love/will -- love is impressed or instilled with will, it is motivated and propelled by will
hate -- ill-intentioned, distorted and discordant affection or love which is impressed and directed by an ill-founded yet purposeful will
ill-founded intentions -- based on distorted, discordant reasoning, information, judgement or grounds
well-founded intentions -- based on undistorted, accordant reasoning, information, judgement or grounds
ill-intentioned affections -- hateful
well-intentioned affections -- loveful
un-intentioned affections -- ?
ill-intentioned indifference -- planetary disasters by passive aggressive logos(?) -- wise use of passive aggression to feel self-empowered and to further manipulate others
well-intentioned indifference -- ignoring mischievous elementals, using discernment and wisdom to avoid perceived negative outcomes
will/light -- will produces and directs light -- it enables or disables light -- it is able to suppress and darken light by hate-directed ill will
light/will -- manifestation when light is impressed or instilled with will, it is shaped and reformulated by purposeful will and well or ill-intentioned will
love/light -- the enabler, the power and energy giver by means of willful and willing intent and purpose -- well-intentioned will
light/love -- manifestation when light has been impressed with love which is inspired and motivated by purposeful will -- well-intentioned will
RE: Thoughts on will, love, light of Creator - Ooo - 05-30-2015
(05-30-2015, 06:40 AM)4Dsunrise Wrote: Given Ra's assertion of the Primal Triad of Free Will, Love and Light is will on the same level of being as love and light? Is there a will of the Creator?
Without Will, Love or the power of creativity does not precipitate to bring forth Light or manifestation to construct a universe wherein experience may be had.
In order to properly conceptualize this, one must understand Love as being more than just a "warm n' fuzzy feeling," but as the creative or driving force—the active, kinetic, dynamic principle behind all of Creation.
Ra described Love as a "kinetic focus." Focus is concentration, and kinetic is movement or motion. Elsewhere (particularly pre- and post-Ra L/L Research channeling), Love is described as the Original Thought. What is Thought if not the ultimate creative activity?
To me, it is evident Love precedes Light and Will precedes Love. And this Will is what Intelligent Infinity is "full of" when at rest or "before" Creation (the active or creative phase).
The simplest analogy I can offer is this: picture yourself in a completely black room. You have no picture. There are no boundaries, no delineations, no sense of dimension or any time/space whatsoever. Now, suppose you were to turn on the light. How would you go about doing that?
Well, you'd hit the light switch, right?
Sure, but how would you go about that exactly?
You could say you'd get up from bed or coach (where you were resting), walk up to the light switch, swing up your arm, position your hand on the switch, extend your index finger, flick it on and... voila! Let there be Light.
So what what that all about?
Action, darling. It required activity, work, movement to turn on the light. You could argue you could have a voice-activated light system—and it'd be all the more closer to reality! Most people tend to think of "action" in strictly physical terms. What is your voice if not a subtle sound-vibration? And what is vibration if not an activity? "And God said: let there be Light." The saying, that uttering—the Logos—is the ultimate activity/vibration. And that activity/vibration is Love. Love is the action, the Creator in motion, the Creator at work. And that is, by definition, energy.
Yet what brought you to move to turn on the light? What was the cause of such action? How is it that you got to move in the first place?
And the answer to that, my dear, is Will. The preceding power, impulse or desire to act, to move, to create.
This is why Ra calls these the 3 "distortions" from Intelligent Infinity. And this is one of the primary reasons why Ra resonates with my already pre-established notions of cosmology/cosmogeny (not because I like Ra, but because Ra supports my own musings).
As I said elsewhere:
(1) the power, impulse or desire to act (Will)
(2) the action itself (Love/Thought)
(3) the manifestation of said activity (Light)
RE: Thoughts on will, love, light of Creator - Aion - 05-30-2015
I believe there is an entity which is absolutely aware of itself as the Creator and all who become the Creator in awareness become part of that entity. This being is the gateway to the next Octave, the threshold of identity. It is the higher self of the Axis Mundi, the Soul of the Universe, the Prime Logos.
Therefore, I view the whole structure somewhat less mechanistically. The ideas of will, light and love are actually a particular state of refinement of the One Thought, they are expositions attempting to represent the self-dynamism present in the One Thought. Therefore I would seek to look beyond the words as concepts and attempt to discern the actual existences which make up the experience of these concepts.
Thus, love, light and free will as concepts relate to a particular concept in our minds, however it is dependent upon our ability to make a connection between those word concepts and the actual experience we are having. If we have no context we have no measure of our considerations.
We therefore must look at these concepts in terms of how they relate to our actual experience. Light is fairly obvious, being present as that which substantiates experience. Love is less obvious, but can be seen in the dynamics of support and relationship. It can also be seen through interest and genuine curiosity. Will is the most subtle and I can only describe it as the 'the mode by which anything is doing what it is doing'. Thus we see will in the dynamic of direction and intention on large and small scales.
Key here I think is to recognize that Light is Love and Love is Light, they are a ratio of measures within free will. I have always seen it that love/light is basically like electromagnetism. Light is electric, expansive, love is magnetic, contractive. To that extent I would perhaps call will gravity. Spiritual mass is a term you sometimes see in this vein.
Therefore I would consider love/light to be the body of the car, all the parts and the engine, but will is the fuel and principle of combustion which allows the car to come to life. Drawing together all the elements in to synthesis which had once been divided.
RE: Thoughts on will, love, light of Creator - 4Dsunrise - 06-07-2015
Note to everyone:
I type up most of my posts ahead of time so they're in a form that is what you'd call pedantic so they can be reworked and used in the treatise and curriculum project. More posts to come on this topic.
Thanks for the feedback. This is a tough subject since it seems to be at odds with Ra's bias of just love and light of the OIC. Even so, it's good to challenge your professor once in a while.
I can appreciate both an analytical philosophical and a holistic spiritual account of this subject and others. They are both useful for a future philosophical treatise and curriculum.
I'm focusing on the analytic so I'm going to ask alot of questions in the manner of the Socratic Method and is not meant to badger and offend. The purpose of this method is to gain a better understanding and clarity through dialectic using thesis, antithesis and synthesis.
I'll start with Ooo.
Quote:Without Will, Love or the power of creativity does not precipitate to bring forth Light or manifestation to construct a universe wherein experience may be had.
By "Will" are you referring to "Free Will" or some more general Will with both free and deterministic modalities? An example of deterministic will is the will to survive or perhaps just the will to have being as the IUP/AOP suggests of Infinity and Unity.
By "precipitate" are you implying that Love or creative power is derived from Will? So that if there was no Will, then Love and Light could not exist? It sounds as though you are making that implication.
This is a drastic difference from Tanrar's analogy of Will as the fuel and combustion process of the automobile. Using his analogy Ooo's Will would more likely be the material out of which both the fuel and the parts of the automobile are made from. A much more substantial role played by the Will.
As a side question -- if Will is so foundational why do you think Ra only greets in "the love and light of the OIC" and not "the will, love and light of the OIC"? Perhaps they want to emphasize the +4D harvest sentiment.
In contrast what do you think a -5D or -6D SMC would say as a greeting to a -3D channel group? "We greet you with total will power and dominance of Creators which we are." or "We greet you in the will/light and light/will as Masters of Infinity".
Quote:In order to properly conceptualize this, one must understand Love as being more than just a "warm n' fuzzy feeling," but as the creative or driving force—the active, kinetic, dynamic principle behind all of Creation.
Are you taking a Platonist position with Will, Love and Light as universal Forms that precede and transcend space and time and from which are precipitated the particular and concrete manifestations ie warm fuzzy feeling love? This is a key philosophical consideration -- and I'm beginning to think that Ra is a dyed in wool Platonist and is perhaps an extreme kind called a Plenitudinous Platonist.
Your initial quote asserts that Will is the force behind Love or creative power so is that a validation of Love/Will and Will/Love which acts as the creative or driving force? My tentative definitions of Love/Will and Will/Love suggests to this.
Questions to consider:
-- Is the Will self-motivated at some primal level to initially act on Love? Will/Love?
-- Does the Will also allow itself to be inspired by Love to act and impress itself on Love? Love/Will?
-- Can it also be motivated by Hate to act and impress itself on Hate? Hate/Will?
-- How about pure Will acting on Light without Love? Will/Light and Light/Will?
-- Does the Sun have Will? It encompasses the octave densities and astrologically is considered our center of conscious being, will and intention.
Quote:Ra described Love as a "kinetic focus." Focus is concentration, and kinetic is movement or motion.
It takes intention and motivation -- Will-based traits -- to be focused and to move. Will/Love and Love/Will again? These are also psychological traits so there's the notion of metaphysics and metapsychology interacting.
Quote:Elsewhere (particularly pre- and post-Ra L/L Research channeling), Love is described as the Original Thought. What is Thought if not the ultimate creative activity?
Ra says Free Will is the 1st distortion of the LOO -- "There is a law which we believe to be one of the more significant primal distortions of the Law of One. That is the Law of Confusion. You have called this the Law of Free Will." -- but the 2nd distortion of Love is the Original Thought.
So I guess this Law of Confusion or Free Will does not express awareness and thought. Is it therefore an unaware modality? Some raw random impulse?
I have considered the Original Thought in terms of First Cause -- "We feel that the First Cause was an Absolute Determinism...this Absolute Invariant Determinism was the Original Thought that predicated a fixed, constant deterministic choice -- one that is invariant and necessary and infused with awareness and purpose."
As another side question, why isn't the Original Thought known as the Original Emotion if it is Love-based? Or does thought precede emotion? Platonic Forms again. As another aside -- Quo says the infinity of spirit is greater than the infinity of consciousness so is not the Logos derived from spirit? And isn't spirit a kind of primal and inspired Will? Or Love-inspired Will?
Quote:To me, it is evident Love precedes Light and Will precedes Love. And this Will is what Intelligent Infinity is "full of" when at rest or "before" Creation (the active or creative phase).
Again, by "Will" are you referring to "Free Will" or some more general Will with both free and deterministic modalities? I ask because Free Will appears later as a primal distortion.
Other side questions. Intelligent Infinity is the potentiated state of Unity according to Ra in book 2. What about primal Infinity before it became Intelligent Infinity which is mentioned in session 1? Intelligent Infinity is also called the OIC in various parts of the material.
Ra may at times get ambiguous and conflate terms -- which is understandable when conveying +4D message to 3D humans.
Quote:This is why Ra calls these the 3 "distortions" from Intelligent Infinity.
This is true if you are equating the LOO with Intelligent Infinity. As I said the OIC is also referred as Intelligent Infinity. We can lumped them all together I guess but this is starting to feel muddled and distortive --- even in poetic holistic terms.
Quote:And the answer to that, my dear, is Will. The preceding power, impulse or desire to act, to move, to create.
So Will provides the desire or intent for Love or Thought to create? So again, is this more accurately described as Will/Love or Love/Will?
Tanrar seems to be emphasizing his personal holistic and experiential views that may or may not differ with Ra's metaphysics. His approach does indicate how mystics and poet philosophers differ from say, philosopher poets. He refers to will, love and light as ideas so he may be in the Platonic camp.
Side question -- how do these universal Platonic Forms differ from archetypes ie of the mind, body and spirit? This is an area for more research.
What I've learned from this Socratic approach is that it's important to define terms and apply these terms in an appropriate and restricted usage so as not to cause conflation and confusion. We all tend to do this when talking of such abstract concepts.
Thanks again and keep it going if you see the need to reply. I'll be adding more thoughts.
RE: Thoughts on will, love, light of Creator - Aion - 06-07-2015
I think will, love and light are principles. That may make them ideas, but it's more that we are thinking of the ideas. I see it that they are basic distictions or discernments derived from the Creator focusing upon finity. In other words I see them as words that are placeholders for much more abstract realities.
I actually think they are all the same thing in differing degrees of abstraction. Love is Will condensed. Light is Love condensed. All other distortions are condensed from light. These function as a step process or bridge between the potential phase of intelligent infinity and its final kinetic manifestation.
I always found it interesting how Ra says that the first thing in existence is infinity and second is that infinity discerned a concept, finity. I feel like if I can understand how infinity is able to discern I might be a little farther along.
RE: Thoughts on will, love, light of Creator - Minyatur - 06-07-2015
(06-07-2015, 01:45 PM)Tan.rar Wrote: I think will, love and light are principles. That may make them ideas, but it's more that we are thinking of the ideas. I see it that they are basic distictions or discernments derived from the Creator focusing upon finity. In other words I see them as words that are placeholders for much more abstract realities.
I actually think they are all the same thing in differing degrees of abstraction. Love is Will condensed. Light is Love condensed. All other distortions are condensed from light. These function as a step process or bridge between the potential phase of intelligent infinity and its final kinetic manifestation.
I always found it interesting how Ra says that the first thing in existence is infinity and second is that infinity discerned a concept, finity. I feel like if I can understand how infinity is able to discern I might be a little farther along.
How did nothing think of something?
RE: Thoughts on will, love, light of Creator - Aion - 06-07-2015
Well I'm hard pressed to call Intelligent Infinity "nothing".
RE: Thoughts on will, love, light of Creator - Minyatur - 06-07-2015
(06-07-2015, 01:51 PM)Tan.rar Wrote: Well I'm hard pressed to call Intelligent Infinity "nothing".
Before there was the notion of finity, was it intelligent? Or was it an empty infinity.
RE: Thoughts on will, love, light of Creator - Aion - 06-07-2015
Well according to Ra intelligence and infinity are inseparable which makes sense to me. How can you have infinity lacking intelligence? How can something which without limits be 'nothing'? Only if you describe it in a way that says that things are limits and infinity therefore lacks things in and of itself but lack is a limit I don't believe infinity truly has.
I think the problem is in the attempt to reduce things to a polarized beginning such as the polarity of everything/nothing. I think unity is beyond this polarity of ideas.
RE: Thoughts on will, love, light of Creator - Aion - 06-07-2015
Also I'd mention that every time I say 'thought' or 'ideas' I think I'm actually referring to the Creator's capacity to focus upon a potential and make it kinetic.
RE: Thoughts on will, love, light of Creator - Minyatur - 06-07-2015
When we move on to the Octave beyond, do our "threads" of awareness stop to merge with the whole as to be used for the potential of something greater.
Or is there a continuation of solo my line of awareness as the Creator into the next Octave? If not I'm probably going to take my time to enjoy it more.
RE: Thoughts on will, love, light of Creator - Ooo - 06-08-2015
(06-07-2015, 07:16 AM)4Dsunrise Wrote: By "Will" are you referring to "Free Will" or some more general Will with both free and deterministic modalities?
I believe this has already been answered in this recent thread: Willpower - What Is It?
So I'll simply copy/paste some of my responses from there...
There is no difference between will, freewill and willpower. The much stigmatized word power derives from the Old French povoir ("the ability to act or do"), which, as with most French words, derives in turn from the Latin potens/potentialis ("powerful, capable of doing or acting").
Etymology 101
Thus, the ability to act or do precedes the doing or action itself. As such, this power or Will precedes the Love or the action. Intelligent Infinity equals infinite potential, and is therefore infinitely powerful ("full" of Will) to act or do (Love), and because It is infinite, It must also be infinitely free in Its choice of action or creative exploration (Love). Hence the plurality of Loves or kinetic focuses of Creativity.
So once again, there is no difference between will, freewill and willpower, save in semantic nuances.
Quote:By "precipitate" are you implying that Love or creative power is derived from Will? So that if there was no Will, then Love and Light could not exist? It sounds as though you are making that implication.
If a painter didn't wish (will) to paint the painting, the painting wouldn't "exist," wouldn't you say? If an architect didn't intend (will) to architect an architecture in the first place, how would the architecture come into "existence"? If a dreamer didn't desire (will) to dream a dream, there wouldn't be a dream to begin with. Yet there is a dream, and we are part of this dream.
In each and every case, it was the impulse of (free)Will that preceded the action/creativity to bring forth or manifest said creation.
The Painter > wish to paint > Painting (verb, action) > Painting (noun)
The Architect > intention to architect > Architecting (verb, action) > Architecture (noun)
The Dreamer > desire to dream > Dreaming (verb, action) > Dream (noun)
The Creator > (fee)Will to act or create > Love, original Thought (verb, action) > Light, material that manifests Creation (noun)
In other words, one cannot do anything unless one wills s/himself into action. Once one gets to work (doing, action), then the manifestation of said work occurs. This should be plainly obvious. At the highest level of Creation, undistorted, pure, clear, white, undiffracted Light is the first and purest manifestation of the pure Love or the original Thought of the One Infinite Creator. Light is always the first and purest creative manifestation.
Quote:As a side question -- if Will is so foundational why do you think Ra only greets in "the love and light of the OIC" and not "the will, love and light of the OIC"?
I've asked that question myself many, many times. I honestly don't know. I suppose the terms "love and light" evoke a much more emotional response from the audience (and more emotional is always more engaging). "Will" may be too abstract of a concept. I suppose other 3rd-density planets would be greeted otherwise, according to their own societal and philosophical biases/distortions.
Quote:Are you taking a Platonist position with Will, Love and Light as universal Forms that precede and transcend space and time and from which are precipitated the particular and concrete manifestations ie warm fuzzy feeling love?
No, for as much as I like and respect Greek philosophy/metaphysics, I have nothing to do whatsoever (save by accident) with Plato, Socrates, et al. But yes, the Will, Love and Light do indeed transcend and precede space/time. I wouldn't call them "forms," however. I reserve that term for that which has distinguishable characteristics (shape, volume, color, dimension, etc), and is therefore limited and illusory (not real—infinite, absolute, unchangeable). Will, Love and Light are rather principles via which Creation is brought about.
I would also differentiate between "warm n' fuzzy" love with Love, the Creative Principle. The former is a distorted experience of the latter which can only be experienced by entities experiencing the illusion (in its 7-density spectrum). To feel that "warm n' fuzzy" love is, however, a positive sign of evolutionary development in 3rd density (and some of the higher levels of 2nd, no doubt). As one evolves further up the densities, one becomes more and more closely aligned with Love as a Creative Principle rather than an emotion of affection felt for one another.
In truth, the original Thought of Creation is equated with Love because, in human language, that word is the strongest and closest approximation to describing euphoria or ecstasy, which is the highest, most pure and undistorted state of creative activity or Thought. Hence, Love. Furthermore, whenever one engages in sexual intercourse and experiences an orgasm one has momentarily tasted, in distorted fashion, what the Logos is/feels. Hence the saying, "making love."
Quote:What about primal Infinity before it became Intelligent Infinity which is mentioned in session 1? Intelligent Infinity is also called the OIC in various parts of the material.
As far as I'm aware, there is no difference between "Infinity," "Intelligent Infinity," "Oneness," "Infinite Potential," "The Primordial Void," "Nothingness," "Plenum," "Khaos," "Apeiron" or the "One Infinite Creator." The only noticeable distinctions I can distinguish from said undistorted, unpotentiated Infinity are the 3 principles or "distortions" known as (free)Will, Love/Thought and Light.
I believe Ra's statement about Infinity becoming aware refers to Infinity's application of freedom of will of awareness to create a particular creation/means of exploration (if I recall correctly, this is stated in the following question/answer of that same session).
Quote:What I've learned from this Socratic approach is that it's important to define terms and apply these terms in an appropriate and restricted usage so as not to cause conflation and confusion.
Absolutely. Which is why I place such emphasis on etymology. I've been observing the world from the vantage point of social interactions and lingual communications for many, many years now. What I've discovered is that one of the principal reasons for disagreement/discrepancies between parties is due to semantic misunderstandings (ie. everything is "open to interpretation"). I am the furthest from a "Grammar Nazi," but clarity and communication have always been both my bane/burden and honor/duty, as Ra would say. And until we do away with this lingual means of (mis)communication by developing pure telepathy, etymology brings us back to the original, intended meaning of each word we so haphazardly spit at each other (especially when discussing the more abstract concepts).
I am aware you had posed various other questions. However, I believe most have been answered one way or another by all of the above. If you haven't already, I suggest reading this (rather lengthy) thread which basically reiterates everything I've said thus far: Will, Love & Light — A Collection of Q'uotes (& Other Tidbits)
RE: Thoughts on will, love, light of Creator - 4Dsunrise - 06-14-2015
Thanks again for the feedback.
Tanrar says:
Quote:I actually think they are all the same thing in differing degrees of abstraction. Love is Will condensed. Light is Love condensed. All other distortions are condensed from light. These function as a step process or bridge between the potential phase of intelligent infinity and its final kinetic manifestation.
This idea has promise when comparing the physical with the transphysical.
First a definition: the term condensed means to become more compact or concentrated.
From this, in the spiritual and density sense, I would think that the most concentrated form is will, then love and then light. We can think of will, love and light in terms of a solid, liquid and gas respectively.
You represented condensation in our physical space/time realm where the abstract is more rarefied and condenses to less abstract. The physical condensation pattern is fire, air, water, earth -- or plasma, gas, liquid, solid. But this doesn't comply with your notion of the passive potential (solid) transforming to more active (liquid) and final kinetic (gas).
In the transphysical time/space realm processes are reversed so that the most abstract is the most solid and the transphysical condensation pattern is earth, water, air, fire where fire is most solid. Fire is associated with the will which is fitting and there are references by Ra of the Sun's light/fire as being solid which suggests this reversal. This does comply with your notion of the passive potential (solid) transforming to more active (liquid) and final kinetic (gas).
Using the transphysical realm and will, love, light as solid, liquid, gas respectively consider the following:
A chunk of solid water ice that is below freezing temperature can undergo sublimation into a vapor/gas without having to apply heat -- a solid to gas conversion -- so will/light and light/will can occur without love.
This reflects a range of indifferent, cold-hearted and hateful will/light and light/will phenomena. Why can STS work black magic without a heart center? Maybe the love for self or the universe (if it loves what it desires to master) engenders the ability to manifest light? Or maybe indifferent and cold-hearted will can manifest light since will can supercede love.
When heat is applied to this ice it goes above the freezing temperature and melts into a liquid -- a solid to liquid conversion. So this reflects a range of indifferent, warm-hearted and loveful will/love and love/will phenomena.
A bowl of liquid water that is below the boiling temperature can still undergo evaporation into a vapor/gas, but when heat is applied to the liquid it can more readily evaporate and goes through a complete conversion from liquid to gas at the boiling temperature.
So this reflects a range of indifferent, warm-hearted and loveful love/light and light/love phenomena.
What do you all think of this notion of will/love, love/will, will/light, light/will to be added to love/light and light/love? This is a key question that opens up another area of research.
Quote:I always found it interesting how Ra says that the first thing in existence is infinity and second is that infinity discerned a concept, finity. I feel like if I can understand how infinity is able to discern I might be a little farther along
Here's my take. From session 1 -- Infinity identifies or references Unity -- Infinity is Unity so the identity relationship is a kind of discernment.
Unity is singularity and is the ultimate finite form -- you may even consider it as absolute finity since from it is generated other finite forms. A metamath approach considers 1 + 1 = 2 or successor of 1 is 2 -- and for any finite n the successor of n is n+1.
Minyatur says:
Quote:Before there was the notion of finity, was it intelligent? Or was it an empty infinity
Borrowing from non-Dualism primal Infinity is absolute formlessness so when it identifies with primal Unity, which is absolute form it can become intelligent -- or that's the theory so far.
Quote:Also I'd mention that every time I say 'thought' or 'ideas' I think I'm actually referring to the Creator's capacity to focus upon a potential and make it kinetic.
That's a good way to express it and I would say that it complies with neo-Platonism and eternal abstract Forms, Ideals or Universals that precipitate an infinite range of similar less abstract or concrete forms.
My metamath approach is neo-Platonic and, for the most part, mathematics and physics is based on neo-Platonic notions which consider principles as ideas or abstract universals.
I asked:
By "Will" are you referring to "Free Will" or some more general Will with both free and deterministic modalities?
Ooo says:
Quote:There is no difference between will, freewill and willpower
I agree that will and willpower are generally the same even though there's many notions of power used by Ra ie spiritual power, power of love to enable light, etc.
There's over 200 entries of 'power' according to lawofone.info including "the power and peace of the OIC" numerous times. Perhaps will and power can be used interchangeably in many of these entries.
Regarding will and freewill.
Quote:It must also be infinitely free in Its choice of action or creative exploration.
In my question above I denote will as a general will that can be expressed by two modalities of free and deterministic. So in that general sense there is free will and deterministic will and perhaps there is an undetermined will in which it is unknown whether it is free or deterministic.
This is all hypothetical and I'm doing some creative speculating as an exercise. So as a counter example to your notion that the Will must be infinitely free I propose the following which may or may not hold.
If a google of choices -- a finite number -- is the range of choice for action or creative exploration then can the Will still manifest or operate? Can this be considered as finitely free will or finitely determined will? Isn't it possible to create a complex and vast yet finite system in which the Will can manifest? Perhaps as some blind, instinctual deterministic will?
1D examples:
1. Chemical reactions -- mix baking soda with vinegar -- why do they always produce the same reaction? Don't the molecules have freewill to not react?
2. A dust cloud in space contracts to form a planet or star. Don't the dust have freewill to not coalesce and gravitate to form a star?
2D examples:
1. Put your hand in a beehive -- why do the bees always sting you? Don't the bees have free will not to sting you?
2. A virus on a host always replicates. Don't they have freewill to not replicate?
In addition, I would say that primal Unity, as singularity, has singular focus and will. Singular is finite so is necessarily deterministic or primal.
This question was asked in a podcast, "Prior to the free will distortion of Unity did the Creator have a choice to come into existence or did the Creator have no choice but to come into existence?" Einstein asked the same thing and of course no one could give a valid answer. It's the First Cause problem in philosophy.
I'm considering the notion that there was no choice but to come into existence -- a necessary and deterministic act of will -- which sets the stage for the polar notion of free will as a natural counter reaction to determinism. Thus the creative free will/determinism dynamic in chaos theory and fractal math.
So what do you think of this notion of deterministic will? Too far removed from infinity? Maybe that's why finitist philosophers and scientists and some types of substance monists are atheists and determinists.
In the question below I asked this in the way of a leading question to a witness. I knew the answer but wanted an explicit response.
By "precipitate" are you implying that Love or creative power is derived from Will? So that if there was no Will, then Love and Light could not exist? It sounds as though you are making that implication.
Your exposition pretty much said that this is the implication. That is, if there was no Will then there would be no Love and no Light. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Quote:At the highest level of Creation, undistorted, pure, clear, white, undiffracted Light is the first and purest manifestation of the pure Love or the original Thought of the One Infinite Creator. Light is always the first and purest creative manifestation.
As an exercise I'm going to go Socratic method here and ask the following:
1. What about Light also being a manifestion of Will? If it is undistorted than why not pure Will or the Original Impulse?
2. So do you think there is only the love/light and light/love of the OIC? If the Will is so essential why not also assert will/light, light/will and will/love, love/will of the OIC? Does the negative path utilize will/light and light/will?
3. How did Light manifest and function in the previous octave especially at the very beginning of that octave? How about the octave previous to that one? How minimal and attenuated can Light be in those octaves?
Question #2 is the one I'm most interested in hearing feedback.
You mentioned the usage of 'forms' in the usual physical sense, and I can understand that. From what I've read Platonic Forms or Ideals are abstract Universals. They are metaphysical thoughtforms ie principles, laws, concepts etc and are not physical.
For now I take a neo-Platonic position and will use it in my treatise project to make relatable to mainstream philosophy students.
Thanks all for the input and reply if you'd like.
RE: Thoughts on will, love, light of Creator - Aion - 06-20-2015
Ah, see there are two ways I view it, from finite to infinite, and from infinite to finite. I agree with you in terms of being most concentrated in unity but that's kind of outside of what I was expressing. When I said 'condensed' what I meant to refer to is the activity of love/light in focus. Thus, when I say love is will condensed, what I mean is that love is will focusing. This I suggest because it is the concentration of an limitless freedom of awareness (first distortion) in to a finite potential. Thus, infinite awareness is condensed in to finite awareness.
I guess I was approaching from the direction of spirit to matter, rather than matter to spirit.
RE: Thoughts on will, love, light of Creator - Aion - 06-20-2015
I always ponder will through the phrase Ra uses 'the freedom of will of awareness'. Will corresponds with the Creator's self awareness. Will would be the Creator's freedom to be aware of any part of itself. The activity of that freedom is called love. Light is the manifestation of that activity.
RE: Thoughts on will, love, light of Creator - Aion - 06-20-2015
I think it's important to consider that these are facets of the same thing - the Creator.
I like to think of it in a way that is inclusive. For example, light as we see it has many properties including colour, intensity, etc. I see the will, love and light to be the emergent 'properties' of the Creator. They aren't something other than the Creator, they are the nature of the Creator manifesting itself to itself.
RE: Thoughts on will, love, light of Creator - 4Dsunrise - 07-21-2015
I took a break from this topic but, imo, it's still an open-ended question regarding the Primal Triad of Free Will, Love and Light and what I asked here:
Quote:So do you think there is only the love/light and light/love of the OIC? If the Will is so essential why not also assert will/light, light/will and will/love, love/will of the OIC? Does the negative path utilize will/light and light/will?
So contrasting answers are:
1. I think there is only love/light and light/love of the OIC. There is no need for will/love and love/will, and will/light and light/will. It is understood that the will is embedded within these two aspects (or some variation of that rationale). The negative path utilizes only love/light and light/love.
2. I think there is not only love/light and light/love but also will/love and love/will, and will/light and light/will. Given the Primal Triad it is natural to infer this since Freewill is the 1st distortion which makes it as important as the other two primal distortions, Love and Light. The negative path utilizes all six of these forms with emphasis of will/light and light/will.
In the OP I made it known that, until I'm convinced otherwise, I choose #2.
Who wants to choose #1 and provide their rationale? Ra and the several Confederation channels must have a rationale. If you're pro-#1 what is it?
I would love to hear feedback about this since it is 'outside the box' and audacious to assert #2. Who dares to be pro-#2? And what's your rationale?
Here's some fodder for possible use for rationale of #2 coming from Ra in session 42.
Quote:Questioner: In the last session you said, “that when the self is conscious to a great enough extent of the workings of the catalyst of fasting, and the techniques of programming, it then may through concentration of the will and the faculty of faith alone cause reprogramming without the analogy of fasting, diet, or other analogous bodily complex disciplines.” What are the techniques of programming which the higher self uses to insure that the desired lessons are learned or attempted by the third-density self?
Ra: I am Ra. There is but one technique for this growing or nurturing of will and faith, and that is the focusing of the attention. The attention span of those you call children is considered short. The spiritual attention span of most of your peoples is that of the child. Thus it is a matter of wishing to become able to collect one’s attention and hold it upon the desired programming.
This, when continued, strengthens the will. The entire activity can only
occur when there exists faith that an outcome of this discipline is possible.
So, through sheer use of will and faith one can reprogram personal patterns and cause changes in consciousness. This sounds like some use of will/love or will/light and not just love/light and light/love.
I'm open to hearing a pro-#1 rationale and why it's not pro-#2.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not to forget you -- thanks Aion for your responses to my #13 post.
As you said:
Quote:When I said 'condensed' what I meant to refer to is the activity of love/light in focus. Thus, when I say love is will condensed, what I mean is that love is will focusing. This I suggest because it is the concentration of an limitless freedom of awareness (first distortion) in to a finite potential. Thus, infinite awareness is condensed in to finite awareness.
Do you think you are pro-#1 with some form of embedded will used for focusing love/light? I like your notion that it takes will to bring form into being from infinite to finite. That may provide conceptual and logical support for a pro-#2 rationale.
You say further:
Quote:I always ponder will through the phrase Ra uses 'the freedom of will of awareness'. Will corresponds with the Creator's self awareness. Will would be the Creator's freedom to be aware of any part of itself. The activity of that freedom is called love. Light is the manifestation of that activity.
Applying the awareness of Will to Love and to Light may translate to forms ie will/love and love/will, and will/light and light/will. The primal 'I Am' as an act of sheer will?
Finally you say:
Quote:I see the will, love and light to be the emergent 'properties' of the Creator. They aren't something other than the Creator, they are the nature of the Creator manifesting itself to itself.
This sounds right to me and I agree with stating it as will, love and light of the OIC -- unique emergent properties.
My thought is that, in academic philosophy terms, there is Free Will, Determinism (Love) and the Free will/Determinism dynamic (Light) which is a nice complement to the broad new age usage -- and so has value for use in a mainstream philosophical treatise where both usages are compared and supported for their practical application.
That's just my take as I consider the academic and intellectual needs of 4D grads.
RE: Thoughts on will, love, light of Creator - 4Dsunrise - 08-30-2015
Ideas of this post are from post #7 of the following thread.
http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthread.php?tid=10926
"I will to will the will." -- such as the Original Impulse to know Self
"When there's a will there's a way" -- such as the Way of One or Way of Infinity
An absolute deterministic will, or the Original Impulse, underlies the Prime Variations or Prime Triad. This will to manifest the Prime Triad is a will to assert variations on a theme which provides the potentials of a panentheistic Creator to explore and experience Itself.
The variations on a theme of a nondual Existence Monism, which is an absolute monopolar unity or unified monopolarity, springs from the actual variation of One within One, and that manifests as three types of monopolar absolutes -- absolute positive, absolute negative and absolute neutral.
Absolute positive is pure outward, absolute negative is pure inward, and absolute neutral is pure potential dynamism of out/in.
These three monopolar absolutes correspond and manifest as the Prime Triad in that same order as Free Will, Love and Light, or in technical terms, Free Will, Determinism, and Free Will/Determinism Dynamism.
To elaborate, pure outward expresses freedom, to break free in order to go beyond limits -- Primal Infinity aspect. Pure inward expresses love, to sustain love in order to go deep within limits -- Primal Unity aspect. Pure potential dynamism of out/in expresses light, to seek light in order to explore limits -- potential/kinetic Primal Finity aspect (?).
The Ra group uses the expression of the 'Law of Free Will' or the 'Law of Confusion' which manifests as a Prime Variation through the variations on the theme of Existence Monism as absolute positive and outward freedom of Primal Infinity.
The confusion term relates to a 'fusion of all' in an outward projection which is an outward expression of chaotic disorder or structureless randomness with infinite degrees of freedom or dimension. In this way it reflects infinite variety and variableness and asserts freedom from constancy whereby this assertion denotes the will aspect.
Where did the constancy term come from?
It came from a Quo session where they refer to a unit of Free Will as absolute variableness and a unit of Love as absolute constancy. The combining of these two units creates beings of various scales ranging from sub-particles to beings like us and on to planets, stars and galaxies.
Absolute constancy -- absolute negative or Primal Unity -- denotes unchanging unity and the sustainment of love to go inward to the Source as mentioned above. It is a deterministic will that seeks the one degree of freedom of singularity or unity.
So, to cut to the chase -- there's a general absolute will based on the Original Impulse and this can be considered as raw will power. Then there's two relative wills, free will and deterministic will, which assert variation and constancy. Their dynamic, or blend of variation and constancy, creates vibration or light which can be expressed in chaos theory and fractal theory which generate forms of existence in the Topos realm.
RE: Thoughts on will, love, light of Creator - Diana - 08-30-2015
(06-07-2015, 02:21 PM)Aion Wrote: Well according to Ra intelligence and infinity are inseparable which makes sense to me. How can you have infinity lacking intelligence? How can something which without limits be 'nothing'? Only if you describe it in a way that says that things are limits and infinity therefore lacks things in and of itself but lack is a limit I don't believe infinity truly has.
I think the problem is in the attempt to reduce things to a polarized beginning such as the polarity of everything/nothing. I think unity is beyond this polarity of ideas.
One might take a look at implicate/explicate universe, or wave/particle duality. Within the wave function all possible outcomes exist. This would be intelligent infinity. All possibilities in suspension, inherent, until a focusing collapses the possibilities into particle, or finite, form.
So it's not about listing what is in intelligent infinity, its about potential. So actually, in a way, it could be thought of as nothing because nothing exists yet outside of the potential, until focus collapse something out of that potential.
RE: Thoughts on will, love, light of Creator - Minyatur - 08-30-2015
In my view we are part of the processing of the intellience of Intelligent Infinity.
RE: Thoughts on will, love, light of Creator - Infinite Unity - 09-27-2016
The notion of intelligent energy as love/light and light/love is valid in terms of well-founded and well-intentioned will, but there is the Free Will principle which allows for the expression of the other polarity. So there's the possible notion of a negative intelligent energy based on ill will that can be used to create discordant chaos and distorted malformations. Black magicians and Maldek-type disasters. Asteroid bombardment and solar CME's hitting a planet may also be a coarse manifestion of this type of intelligent energy.
In a sense this type of infinite intelligence is expressed/exist. Infinite energy to me is the "designer" of thoughts, and thought forms. I have realized that each entity is of there own Infinite intelligence, within the Creators infinite intelligence. Will to me is the strength upon which you can draw on your own infinite intelligence and "make use of", or "work" Each work made up of and unified by infinite energy/ or love. As I see it there are many levels in Infinite intelligence, or platforms from which entities exist and understand from within there own reality/ infinite intelligence. To me the original thought, is the origin of all other infinite intelligences births. The ability/nature of infinite intelligence is thought, anything and plausibility within already existing moments is then infinite. The universe in my opinion is thought of and seen in infinite ways, and only exists in one way at the same exact time. Some people ask if the creator cares or can see whats going on. Does it have anything riding on the illusion, does it care about outcomes? Love is not the creator, it is the creator of your infinite intelligence. Love emanates from the creator. You are a thought containing the infinite ability to think. Created by the love of the creator for you. for this manyness made infinite through love which is unity.
RE: Thoughts on will, love, light of Creator - Infinite Unity - 09-30-2016
I was looking over this and I noticed that the top paragraph of the above post. Is not one I wrote. I must have copied and pasted without noticing. However I know I didn't write that. My apologies.