(02-16-2011, 05:28 AM)unity100 Wrote: if you dont read some discussion in which every kind of possible argument was made, then you come out reiterating the same arguments to those people, who then, in turn, politely opt out of discussing with you like crimson did.

Quote:please refer to that thread. the very fact that you talk about 'barrels of guns' and 'you guys are communists !!' etc, tells that you are quite biased in this subject. which is not a logical and wise state to be in.

Quote:and this is why you should not read any 'specific part', but all the thread. you are talking about individualism, in a path that seeks out to let go of EVERYthing, leave aside an idea of the self, and give out everything to others. it seems you are conceptualizing this spiritual path of positivity just being something that is only inside, feelings, emotions and so on.

there are quite important discussions regarding the basics of these concepts in that thread. and actually, this is why i asked you to read that thread. the understanding of basic concepts and clearing of misconceptions is much more important to spiritual advancement than anything else.

unity100 Wrote:henry ford's intent in serving others, does not change the fact that he took more than he gave.

(02-16-2011, 06:07 AM)yossarian Wrote: I agree with the Questioner in the other thread in every way. I agree with Ayn Rand who speaks about how money is one of the greatest inventions of mankind.

Profit is not evil. Profit fairly gained through voluntary exchange with happy customers is, in fact, manifest virtue.

(02-16-2011, 06:23 AM)yossarian Wrote: First of all, if you look closely, Ayn Rand believes people should be selfish based on their values.

Quote:Many Ayn Rand followers explicitly value other people. This means that her philosophy can be equally applied to STS and STO. It's a question of values.

Quote:Note that Ayn Rand believed that the ultimate sin is to abridge the free will of another. Are you so sure she is STS? An STS entity would enslave others, and her life is a clear testament that she believes slavery is the greatest evil.

(02-16-2011, 05:22 AM)yossarian Wrote: I believe we can share thoughts without losing individual freedom. Your conception of 4D as a place where individuality is unimportant seems intuitively wrong to me. My conception of 4D involves great beauty flowing from the unique souls of every person, and each person expressing their spiritual beauty in unique ways, some doing it by clothing, some by food, some by song or visual art, some through love, some through sacrifice, and so on. I believe that a life itself is a work of art whose beauty flows from the inspiration and unique soul signature of every entity, acting unfettered in free collaboration with others and great individuality melded into a harmony.

The critical harmonizing feature of 4th density is the desire to serve and love. Aside from this harmonizing feature I believe people will have more individuality and variation, not less. And the capacity of enjoyment will increase as well.

(02-16-2011, 05:22 AM)yossarian Wrote: Since I returned to these forums in the past few weeks I see tremendous levels of cynicism and pessimism and I'm inspired to counteract it.

(02-16-2011, 07:19 AM)Ankh Wrote: I believe that too! The spiritual beauty within each shining out and reaching out, uniting in bigger complexes of voluntarily miscellaneous beauty and harmony.

(02-16-2011, 01:11 PM)unity100 Wrote: curious that how all the previous civilizations, most of which are helping this planet overcome the orange ray blockages, have missed 'bob the barber' and 'joethe barber customer', 'larry the lazy's examples, and still ended up flying around in flying saucers and came to a position that can offer help to a greed-ridden planet at our time and age,

Quote:i still see that you have neither read the thread i referred you properly, or, watched the zeitgeist movie. but instead, came up with 'bob the barber' and joe the hairdresser and larry the lazy and whatnot.

excuse me, but your approach comes off as something that is out of right wing bias. especially, your lack of proper consideration for the others' arguments, judging by the very short duration in which you have supposedly read the thread i linked, and have found the time to disagree with all of them in a flash.

not to mention that, you are STILL discussing that taking something in return of something you are giving out, is positive. you havent, apparently, even pondered on what 51% positive, or 99% negative, means, in reality.

(02-16-2011, 01:35 PM)yossarian Wrote: Such as?

Did Ra say that Venus had no currency? I don't remember that part. Which alien civilization exists without a form of currency?

Quote:22.5 Questioner: Can I assume then that this drastic drop in average life span from seven hundred years to less than one hundred years in length during this second 25,000 years was caused by an intensification of a lack of service to others?

Ra: I am Ra. This is in part correct. By the end of the second cycle, the Law of Responsibility had begun to be effectuated by the increasing ability of entities to grasp those lessons which there are to be learned in this density. Thus, entities had discovered many ways to indicate a bellicose nature, not only as tribes or what you call nations but in personal relationships, each with the other, the concept of barter having given way to the concept of money; also, the concept of ownership having won ascendancy over the concept of nonownership on an individual or group basis.

Each entity then was offered many more subtle ways of demonstrating either service toward others or service to self with the distortion of the manipulation of others. As each lesson was understood, those lessons of sharing, of giving, of receiving in free gratitude—each lesson could be rejected in practice.

Without demonstrating the fruits of such learn/teaching the life span became greatly reduced, for the ways of honor/duty were not being accepted.

Quote:23.15 Questioner: I was really questioning about the more basic cause of disease rather than the mechanism of its transmission. I was going back to the root of thought that created the possibility of disease. Could you briefly tell me if I am correct in assuming the general reduction of thought over the long time on planet Earth with respect to the Law of One created a condition whereby what we call disease could develop? Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct and perceptive. You, as questioner, begin now to penetrate the outer teachings.

The root cause in this particular society was not so much a bellicose action although there were, shall we say, tendencies, but rather the formation of a money system and a very active trading and development of those tendencies towards greed and power; thus, the enslaving of entities by other entities and the misapprehension of the Creator within each entity.

Quote:On the other hand, a publicly issued and publicly backed currency is a great idea. It leads to prosperity. The original greenback was this.

Private currencies are ok as long as they are voluntary and not the only option. Putting the money supply in the hands of the Fed is the dumbest idea ever.

The problem with society is not money. The problem is poverty. How should humans solve poverty? Easy. Just give money to the poor. Why don't more humans do this? Because lots of humans are greedy hoarders who don't care about their fellow man. This is not money's fault though, this is the fault of greedy people.

(02-16-2011, 02:18 PM)yossarian Wrote: I didn't remember that part.

It's the greed and power that are the issue, not the money system.

Quote:As long as there are scarce resources and large populations money will be an option to increase efficiency. Just because Ra didn't have it doesn't mean it is evil.

Quote:It's very easy to use money in service to others. Just give money to others and invest your money in endeavours that serve others. The classic example being a business.

(02-16-2011, 02:40 PM)yossarian Wrote: Ra says bellicosity caused the decreased lifespan. Property rights just allowed people more subtle ways to express their bellicosity.

Quote:The root cause in this particular society was not so much a bellicose action although there were, shall we say, tendencies, but rather the formation of a money system and a very active trading and development of those tendencies towards greed and power; thus, the enslaving of entities by other entities and the misapprehension of the Creator within each entity.

(02-16-2011, 03:15 PM)yossarian Wrote: Again, it's the greed and desire for power over others that is the issue, and certain money systems can be used to facilitate these things.

The formation of the money system allowed people to be greedy.

"the formation of a money system and a very active trading"

Creation of money led to active trading. Understandable.

"and development of those tendencies towards greed and power"

Active trading allowed for the development of greed and power. Also makes sense. The more you trade, the more chance you have to be greedy and exert power. But you have the free will choice to trade fairly in service as well.

Quote:In a barter system, these negative tendencies could be expressed by being a hard bargainer. But when money came along, trading became more active, and these greedy tendencies accelerated by the free will choice of the entities.

Money didn't force them to be greedy. It gave them that option where they didn't have it before.

Quote:In a primitive tribe there is simply very little freedom and very little opportunity to be greedy. Apparently, there is little opportunity to polarize as well as evidenced by the paltry harvests.

It's easy to choose positive polarity in the context of a money system. Just serve others and don't be greedy. Don't hoard your wealth. Give to the needy with a free hand. It's not rocket science.

Quote:statistics say otherwise. 150 people were harvested at the end of 2nd cycle, yet, noone was harvested negatively or positively, after that, up until our times, when the 'sophistication' of the great enabler of free will, the money and trade system, has taken on its full swing.

excuse me, but its impossible to not see the connection. if it enabled free will, it should have enabled positive or negative harvest much more than before.

it didnt.

(02-16-2011, 03:43 PM)yossarian Wrote:

Quote:statistics say otherwise. 150 people were harvested at the end of 2nd cycle, yet, noone was harvested negatively or positively, after that, up until our times, when the 'sophistication' of the great enabler of free will, the money and trade system, has taken on its full swing.

excuse me, but its impossible to not see the connection. if it enabled free will, it should have enabled positive or negative harvest much more than before.

it didnt.

And you're blaming this lack of harvest entirely on the concept of money?

(02-16-2011, 06:07 PM)yossarian Wrote: Is it irony that an engineer sees tools as the root of all evil?

Quote:While you see all those evil things I just see the opportunity for people to make a choice.

Quote:Logos put man on the earth naked, cold, and hungry. This is the original scarcity. I think social development is a beautiful thing not an ugly thing. I see all the technology as amazing and wonderful, and the progress of society as a positive. But like you said, we all see what we want to see.