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RE: G.I Gurdjieff - Aion - 08-20-2016
(08-19-2016, 03:39 PM)GentleWanderer Wrote:(08-19-2016, 01:49 PM)Aion Wrote: Is it ironic that Gurdjieff dismissed Aleister Crowley as a 'black magician', in the context of this thread? Lol supposedly Crowley had great respect for the man.
Aion do you have an opinion of G with your psychic skills ?
After going through a bunch of pictures, looking in to his eyes, I would say he was positively polarized. However, there seems to be an intense 'knot' around him, almost like a labyrinth. I believe he wanted to help others but, like Crowley, became 'oversaturated with the true nature of things' and so at times perhaps engaged in 'well-intentioned slavery' as Ra might put it. I believe he had a genuine desire to serve others however his own personal complexity was perhaps his greatest obstacle.
Ultimately, I think the sum of his incarnation was positively polarizing however not superbly so, it seems to me for all the clarity he brought he also brought equal parts confusion.
So I would conclude he is probably a superb example for those who reflect his complexity and would probably seem the exact opposite for anyone else. Ra also said Crowley was positive, and yet he was considered the wickedest man in the world.
At the end of it, if we are viewing all as the Creator then we see that the relationships can be incredibly complex and I doubt any of his relationships were purely positive or purely negative, just like anyone else.
My conclusion is that while he achieved polarization and high center activation, I think he struggled a lot with his own balance and many of his behaviours towards others were reinforcements upon himself. So I suppose I have compassion for him.
RE: G.I Gurdjieff - YinYang - 08-20-2016
Aion Wrote:Ra also said Crowley was positive, and yet he was considered the wickedest man in the world.
It wasn't hard for me to make the jump with Crowley (I know very little about him), because he referred to himself as The Beast... no deception there. Evil wants to appear good, in order to deceive. Gurdjieff referred to his Institute as "The harmonious development of man". Lol! And how many people did Crowley harm severely? Did he harm people? This I ask because I honestly don't know. Or was he mostly self destructive?
Crowley also said "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law"... good indication of polarity right there. That's something Gurdjieff would never have said.
_____ - GentleWanderer - 08-20-2016
_____
RE: G.I Gurdjieff - YinYang - 08-20-2016
At times like this I always remind myself of Alan Watts' five serious philosophical questions:
The first one is: Who started it?
The second is: Are we gonna make it?
The third is: Where are we gonna put it?
The fourth is: Who's gonna clean up?
And the fifth: Is it serious?
~ followed by his infectious laughter ~
Quote:Ra: I am Ra. This instrument is under a most severe psychic attack. This instrument is bearing up well due to replenished vital energies and a distortion towards a sense of proportion which your peoples call a sense of humor.
RE: G.I Gurdjieff - Aion - 08-20-2016
(08-20-2016, 04:17 PM)GentleWanderer Wrote:(08-20-2016, 03:48 PM)Aion Wrote:(08-19-2016, 03:39 PM)GentleWanderer Wrote:(08-19-2016, 01:49 PM)Aion Wrote: Is it ironic that Gurdjieff dismissed Aleister Crowley as a 'black magician', in the context of this thread? Lol supposedly Crowley had great respect for the man.
Aion do you have an opinion of G with your psychic skills ?
After going through a bunch of pictures, looking in to his eyes, I would say he was positively polarized. However, there seems to be an intense 'knot' around him, almost like a labyrinth. I believe he wanted to help others but, like Crowley, became 'oversaturated with the true nature of things' and so at times perhaps engaged in 'well-intentioned slavery' as Ra might put it. I believe he had a genuine desire to serve others however his own personal complexity was perhaps his greatest obstacle.
Ultimately, I think the sum of his incarnation was positively polarizing however not superbly so, it seems to me for all the clarity he brought he also brought equal parts confusion.
So I would conclude he is probably a superb example for those who reflect his complexity and would probably seem the exact opposite for anyone else. Ra also said Crowley was positive, and yet he was considered the wickedest man in the world.
At the end of it, if we are viewing all as the Creator then we see that the relationships can be incredibly complex and I doubt any of his relationships were purely positive or purely negative, just like anyone else.
Interesting what you say about the eyes, i've also the same feeling that he wasn't a negative adept and wanted to help others at first.
But it's important not to sugar coat things, knowing that he clearly engaged in antisocial acts while perfectly knowing what he was doing. To me he sounds like a narcissist (can be very destructive) and the fact that some people still admire him while knowing the bad things he did is quite usual with admirators of a narcissist. So knowing that there are for sure some deep distortions in his teachings, i think the problem with his teachings is it can lead you to unconsciously acquire negative beliefs like to think others humans are worthless machines, that you who are on the 4th way are part of the elite... I wouln't recommend his teachings.
Honestly I think the sum of his incarnation was of only slight positive polarization (I think he counteracted his own efforts this way), much intensifying and ultimately I would say he provides a good and colourful example of an individual striving for self-hood, even if I do think his methods were somewhat extreme and obviously unorthodox. I admit I do not think he polarized enough to be harvestable but he did indeed intensify his centers to such a degree as to gain psychic ability. However that is not the same as being balanced.
It one could, however, take from him lessons which could aid in balancing oneself. After all, all is part of the Creator that we are. Are we not all things?
The teacher is not the measure of the accomplishments of the student and the student is not the measure of the accomplishments of the teacher.
RE: G.I Gurdjieff - YinYang - 08-20-2016
Aion, how much do you know about Gurdjieff? All is indeed part of the Creator, but that is missing the point in this discussion.
Would you let anyone you love near Rasputin, or would you warn them?
Quote:We seek now without polarity. Thus we do not invoke any power from without, for our search has become internalized as we become light/love and love/light. These are the balances we seek, the balances between compassion and wisdom which more and more allow our understanding of experience to be informed that we may come closer to the unity with the one Creator which we so joyfully seek. Your rituals at your level of progress contain the concept of polarization and this is most central at your particular space/time.
The protective ritual that Don and them did, was to protect themselves against the negative polarity. Don didn't say "all is part of the Creator"... they took great pains to ensure protection.
Quote:Ra: We caution you to guard against those who are not wishing to serve others above all else, from taking part in the beginning or in lending their distortions of mind/body/spirit complex to any session as we should then be unable to properly blend our distortions with those of this instrument.
RE: G.I Gurdjieff - Aion - 08-20-2016
(08-20-2016, 05:06 PM)YinYang Wrote: Aion, how much do you know about Gurdjieff? All is indeed part of the Creator, but that is missing the point in this discussion.
Would you let anyone you love near Rasputin, or would you warn them?
Aha I warn people to be conscientious of anybody they come in to contact with, but Gurdjieff is no longer alive so the question is no longer him but about his works, no? In which case I view it as a catalyst like any other and it is still the prerogative of any individual to explore.
That being said, I don't know a lot and have only read a small amount of one of his books, and based on that I would warn anybody that it is a very thick material and easy to get lost and confused in, and I do believe that was the point.
RE: G.I Gurdjieff - Aion - 08-20-2016
(08-20-2016, 05:06 PM)YinYang Wrote: Aion, how much do you know about Gurdjieff? All is indeed part of the Creator, but that is missing the point in this discussion.
Would you let anyone you love near Rasputin, or would you warn them?
Quote:We seek now without polarity. Thus we do not invoke any power from without, for our search has become internalized as we become light/love and love/light. These are the balances we seek, the balances between compassion and wisdom which more and more allow our understanding of experience to be informed that we may come closer to the unity with the one Creator which we so joyfully seek. Your rituals at your level of progress contain the concept of polarization and this is most central at your particular space/time.
The protective ritual that Don and them did, was to protect themselves against the negative polarity. Don didn't say "all is part of the Creator"... they took great pains to ensure protection.
Quote:Ra:We caution you to guard against those who are not wishing to serve others above all else, from taking part in the beginning or in lending their distortions of mind/body/spirit complex to any session as we should then be unable to properly blend our distortions with those of this instrument.
Yet when questioned about sixth density negative wanderers Ra said exactly that. If they truly wanted to help and warn us wouldn't they have told us whom these entities were so we could identify their traits and maybe what they are like? No, because they allow us the free will to determine how we will perceive our other selves.
RE: G.I Gurdjieff - YinYang - 08-20-2016
I didn't mean to put you on the spot or anything, I apologise if it came across that way, Gurdjieff is just a very complex subject, and him, his legacy and his teaching (to this day) causes a lot of suffering and confusion. Have you read this thread and the associated links/documents?
I would just caution against making proclamations like "I would say he was positively polarized because I looked at a picture of his eyes" if you possess little knowledge of this man and his deeds.
RE: G.I Gurdjieff - Aion - 08-20-2016
Well, according to Ra the only way you can maybe get a sense of a person's polarity or life state is by looking in the eyes, so thats what I did. I saw a lot of pain and suffering in his eyes and in his heart and maybe it wasn't right to put that on to others but that doesn't make his suffering any less sorrowful.
RE: G.I Gurdjieff - Aion - 08-20-2016
(08-20-2016, 05:23 PM)YinYang Wrote: I didn't mean to put you on the spot or anything, I apologise if it came across that way, Gurdjieff is just a very complex subject, and him, his legacy and his teaching (to this day) causes a lot of suffering and confusion. Have you read this thread and the associated links/documents?
I would just caution against making proclamations like "I would say he was positively polarized because I looked at a picture of his eyes" if you possess little knowledge of this man and his deeds.
Okay, I will expand my knowledge and tell you if my impression changes. I feel he had an open heart but severe blockages in his yellow and blue ray which massively distorted his green-ray despite it being quite active. That is my current opinion.
RE: G.I Gurdjieff - Aion - 08-21-2016
After reading further my opinion hasn`t really changed. I think he had an active heart but some intense distortions in yellow (where his controlling behaviours would sit) and in blue (obviously seen in his communication and its form). I think, for this reason, he would have been able to intensify his centers and indeed become very `magnetic`, but I think the sum would still only be slight positive with much intensifying. That being said, I`m not sure his polarity would actually be affected by the experiences of anyone who comes in to contact with his materials, will have to consider that.
I decided I will read his three main books and decide for myself. So far, in starting Beelzebub`s Tales to his Grandson I feel an immense amount of sarcasm and humour in the whole thing, but maybe that`s just me...
RE: G.I Gurdjieff - YinYang - 08-21-2016
To each his own, free will is paramount. Each will be drawn to those spiritual teachers who resonate with them personally.
______ - GentleWanderer - 08-21-2016
.....
RE: G.I Gurdjieff - Aion - 08-21-2016
(08-21-2016, 09:38 AM)YinYang Wrote: To each his own, free will is paramount. Each will be drawn to those spiritual teachers who resonate with them personally.
I admit I do not believe it is possible for anyone to teach anyone anything. Learning is something that happens in the self, of the self. What a 'teacher' can do is show you things and in this way I see all of reality, dark and light, good and evil, as my 'teacher'. So, depending on what is shown, I may perhaps learn different things, but what I learn is not dependent on what is being taught, rather it is actually upon what I wish to learn.
In this case my purpose is to read his materials so as to gain a clearer understanding of his character and his social role, since he was obviously around in a very transformative time. I do not take any materials I read as an authority, not even the Ra Material (although Ra does have many descriptions for things which echo my own) and I certainly am not a 'follower' in any much sense.
I was drawn to the Ra Material by my intuition and internal guidance, I saw things it showed me, I have loved and hated it, it has not always been totally positive, but I have learned from it and that is key. I am drawn to read Gurdjieff's work, the same as I was drawn to read The Music Lesson by Victor Wooten recently and how I was drawn to Israel Regardie, and how I really liked the Harry Potter books when I was younger. They are all catalyst which can be polarized in EITHER direction.
Condemnation is not a particularly 'STO' trait in my eyes.
RE: G.I Gurdjieff - Aion - 08-21-2016
In the spirit of Ra's words:
Quote:There is nothing else which is of aid in demonstrating the original thought except your very being, and the distortions that come from the unexplained, inarticulate, or mystery-clad being are many. Thus, to attempt to discern and weave your way through as many group mind/body/spirit distortions as possible among your peoples in the course of your teaching is a very good effort to make.
It seems more appropriate to me to have an informed position rather than to refute blindly.
RE: G.I Gurdjieff - YinYang - 08-21-2016
It seems to me you have an little issue with some truth, if you equate truth to condemnation and refutation, it speaks volumes.
RE: G.I Gurdjieff - Aion - 08-21-2016
It seems to me you have a bit of an attachment to your own 'truths', and the fact that you judge me based on a comparison to your truth speaks it own volumes, my friend.
Some of your sources are also highly questionable to me - such as that "Aliens of the Golden Dawn" page which is on a site I have perused much and distinctly have decided is misinformation - so I admit I have a hard time trusting your exact judgement. So, as such, I will judge for myself based on direct experience rather than by your example.
Not to mention, not having read any of the books you linked to on Amazon, and of which a review isn't really sufficient, I don't really see why I should also immediately trust and take at face value the words of those writers. Instead, I will examine all the ideas, Gurdjieff's work, and the experiences and opinions of his students so I may know what it is exactly that the opinions are all about.
RE: G.I Gurdjieff - YinYang - 08-21-2016
Aion Wrote:It seems to me you have a bit of an attachment to your own 'truths'
"My own" truths? The only person in this thread whose assertions were backed up by proof and sources, is me.
Aion Wrote:and the fact that you judge me
How blind you are to your own judging...
RE: G.I Gurdjieff - Aion - 08-21-2016
(08-21-2016, 05:08 PM)YinYang Wrote:Aion Wrote:It seems to me you have a bit of an attachment to your own 'truths'
"My own" truths? The only person in this thread whose assertions were backed up by proof and sources, is me.
Aion Wrote:and the fact that you judge me
How blind you are to your own judging...
I see how this is going. No, I am judging you for your pushiness, I have no problems admitting to that.
Also, your sources were mostly reviews and websites for various individuals freely writing. Again, why should I take all that information at face value without any actual examination? It seems like you just want me to agree on principle.
RE: G.I Gurdjieff - YinYang - 08-21-2016
Aion Wrote:Some of your sources are also highly questionable to me - such as that "Aliens of the Golden Dawn" page which is on a site I have perused much and distinctly have decided is misinformation - so I admit I have a hard time trusting your exact judgement. So, as such, I will judge for myself based on direct experience rather than by your example.
Why don't you rather point out which of my assertions you consider misinformation, then we take it from there. Something Herald was also unable to do. Interesting that in a 3 page thread, you can only point out 'one' possible questionable source...
Aion Wrote:Not to mention, not having read any of the books you linked to on Amazon, and of which a review isn't really sufficient, I don't really see why I should also immediately trust and take at face value the words of those writers. Instead, I will examine all the ideas, Gurdjieff's work, and the experiences and opinions of his students so I may know what it is exactly that the opinions are all about.
It's amazing to me how you assume I haven't read the books I cited.
Aion Wrote:Instead, I will examine all the ideas, Gurdjieff's work, and the experiences and opinions of his students so I may know what it is exactly that the opinions are all about.
Did you miss my post above? Here it is again:
Quote:To each his own, free will is paramount. Each will be drawn to those spiritual teachers who resonate with them personally.
RE: G.I Gurdjieff - Aion - 08-21-2016
(08-21-2016, 05:21 PM)YinYang Wrote:Aion Wrote:Some of your sources are also highly questionable to me - such as that "Aliens of the Golden Dawn" page which is on a site I have perused much and distinctly have decided is misinformation - so I admit I have a hard time trusting your exact judgement. So, as such, I will judge for myself based on direct experience rather than by your example.
Why don't you rather point out which of my assertions you consider misinformation, then we take it from there. Something Herald was also unable to do. Interesting that in a 3 page thread, you can only point out 'one' possibly questionable source...
Aion Wrote:Not to mention, not having read any of the books you linked to on Amazon, and of which a review isn't really sufficient, I don't really see why I should also immediately trust and take at face value the words of those writers. Instead, I will examine all the ideas, Gurdjieff's work, and the experiences and opinions of his students so I may know what it is exactly that the opinions are all about.
It's amazing to me how you assume I haven't read the books I cited.
Aion Wrote:Instead, I will examine all the ideas, Gurdjieff's work, and the experiences and opinions of his students so I may know what it is exactly that the opinions are all about.
Did you miss my post above? Here it is again:
Quote:To each his own, free will is paramount. Each will be drawn to those spiritual teachers who resonate with them personally.
I did not say that you haven't read them, I said I haven't read them. Also, I have only been involved in this conversation since yesterday and I work in the evenings, so you haven't exactly afforded me much time to break things apart - exactly as I said, I will examine the information and assess. It would be insensible to only read the works of the accusers without any recourse to the materials they are accusing. So far, in my first pass of things, I have found some things questionable and other things interesting and I will continue my investigation.
RE: G.I Gurdjieff - Aion - 08-21-2016
I will admit though, I do find it strange and interesting the 'intensity' with which you refute this man and that is also noted in my examinations.
RE: G.I Gurdjieff - YinYang - 08-21-2016
Aion Wrote:I did not say that you haven't read them, I said I haven't read them. Also, I have only been involved in this conversation since yesterday and I work in the evenings, so you haven't exactly afforded me much time to break things apart - exactly as I said, I will examine the information and assess. It would be insensible to only read the works of the accusers without any recourse to the materials they are accusing. So far, in my first pass of things, I have found some things questionable and other things interesting and I will continue my investigation.
Enjoy your exploration. It was rather unnecessary to get all puffed up and become judgemental when I simply requested of you to inform yourself on a subject matter, before commenting on it.
RE: G.I Gurdjieff - YinYang - 08-21-2016
Aion Wrote:I will admit though, I do find it strange and interesting the 'intensity' with which you refute this man and that is also noted in my examinations.
Yes, I have a tendency to side with victims, rather than perpetrators.
RE: G.I Gurdjieff - Aion - 08-21-2016
![[Image: m1WrzjE.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/m1WrzjE.jpg)
RE: G.I Gurdjieff - Aion - 08-21-2016
Well, I was viewing the website of the writer of "The Three Dangerous Magi" and found this:
Quote:The matter of 'dangerous magi' has not been entirely understood. 'Dangerous' refers, of course, to 'danger' to the status quo (particularly to established religious doctrine, and the need for 'three new wise men' to bear witness to a 'new star' in a highly dangerous time), and more subtly, to the risks involved in keeping company with such teachers -- although as should be clear from my writing in the book, I am of the view that such 'danger' is chiefly to one's own ego and its precious needs to control one's small world.
That doesn't really sound like he actually viewed them as dangerous black magicians so I will obviously have to read the actual book if I am going to get an accurate idea of what he is actually presenting. Do you know of any online copies?
If anything, from his write-up on the book it seems that he and I share the same view of many of these individuals not exactly having 'full enlightenment' or the sort, but who are interesting individuals of 'crazy wisdom'. I admit, I have a penchant for the crazy wisdom, so maybe I am already doomed, I am sorry if that is the case, my friend.
http://www.ptmistlberger.com/the-three-dangerous-magi.php
RE: G.I Gurdjieff - herald - 08-21-2016
1 is for the quote falsely given as Gurdjieff:
written by the jealous wife of a student.
2 is for attributing to Gurdjieff things that Ouspensky wrote
(who most agree was told to leave the group).
3 is for the has-been rocker cum expert on the occult
who also is the blogger "Gurdjieff-con" (WOO HOO 21 books. Go Gary!)
4 is for the the hit piece by the satanic obsessed writer James Webb.
5 is for the Russian operative Boris Mouravieff,
Ouspensky’s friend. They distorted G.’s teaching.
6 is for Fritz Peters,
who probably wrote a very nice tribute to his father figure.
7 is for the unquoted: John Bennett, whose work is impeccable,
(Try the G. Biography Making a New World).
I describe the works of Gurdjieff and Bennett on the thread in this forum
about the work of Gurdjieff and its similarity to the Ra Material.
RE: G.I Gurdjieff - YinYang - 08-21-2016
Herald Wrote:1 is for the quote falsely given as Gurdjieff:
written by the jealous wife of a student.
Do we have to start this all over again? Once again, is this now the 4th time I think? You are dismissing a book which was strongly endorsed by Gurdjieff. Are you now overruling Gurdjieff? If your teacher's own words make you uncomfortable, it should give you pause.
Herald Wrote:2 is for attributing to Gurdjieff things that Ouspensky wrote
(who most agree was told to leave the group).
Again, are you overruling Gurdjieff endorsement of the book? ...and the reason for Ouspensky's departure has been dealt with already.
Herald Wrote:3 is for the has-been rocker cum expert on the occult
who also is the blogger "Gurdjieff-con" (WOO HOO 21 books. Go Gary!)
Ad hominems exhibit your desperation.
Herald Wrote:4 is for the the hit piece by the satanic obsessed writer James Webb.
James Webb? I think we can let readers decide for themselves whether he is credible or not. I also found it comical how you referred to Cambridge earlier in this thread as "some college". I can understand how his book would make you uncomfortable, it would make me uncomfortable too if I was in the Gurdjieff fan club.
Herald Wrote:5 is for the Russian operative Boris Mouravieff,
Ouspensky’s friend. They distorted G.’s teaching.
Can you please provide any evidence for your assertion that Mouravieff was a "Russian operative".
Herald Wrote:6 is for Fritz Peters,
who probably wrote a very nice tribute to his father figure.
Fritz Peters' books speak for themselves. A nice inside-look at daily life at the Prieuré, and Gurdjieff's tyranny.
Herald Wrote:7 is for the unquoted: John Bennett, whose work is impeccable,
(Try the G. Biography Making a New World).
John Bennet has also been dealt with in this thread. Interesting that he decided to study with Ouspensky (the arch enemy! lol!), rather than Gurdjieff. Here's what he had to say about Gurdjieff's "Institute", in case you missed it earlier in this thread:
John Bennet Wrote:Some people went mad. There were even suicides. Many gave up in despair.
He also said several pupils were so shattered by their experiences with Gurdjieff that they required treatment in mental institutions.
Here's the source: Witness: The autobiography of John Bennett
John Bennett Wrote:I describe the works of Gurdjieff and Bennett on the thread in this forum
about the work of Gurdjieff and its similarity to the Ra Material.
Maybe you should read Bennett's autobiography, "whose work is impeccable" as you say.
Finally, I will reiterate; there comes a point when a sufficient number of facts spell a truth, and from that point further facts exemplifying the same truth become redundant.
RE: G.I Gurdjieff - herald - 08-21-2016
Gurdjieff never endorsed "In Search of... "Fragments of an Unknown Teaching" or, of the adversary who distorted his work; he was cordial.
In my hardback edition of Witness, Bennett recants his decision to study with Ouspensky, and returns to work with G.
(though he made the choice because of his work and family to live in England).