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RE: Orion Empire and Free Will - zedro - 03-20-2021
I always assumed that 4th STS would be more 'borg' like because it would be top down hierarchical, whereas 4th STO is about individuals harmonizing into a functional ecosystem, like 2D symbiotic nature which retains diversity but is cohesive and productive. The SMC is just the sum of all parts, and where you need a unified voice, the average/balance of thought prevails. A constitutional democracy would be a rudimentary reflection of this concept, one where it can be fractal in nature depending on the context.
RE: Orion Empire and Free Will - EvolvingPhoenix - 03-20-2021
No. STO unity is less individualistic and from what I can tell, has less room for individual thought as such. There is more confirmity.
RE: Orion Empire and Free Will - zedro - 03-20-2021
As far as not getting 'personal', I guess there's a distinction between historical figures (i.e. dead people) vs those still here. Of course it gets tricky when those deceased are close to the institution, but there are lessons to be learned from their actions as they are inextricably tied to the material. So I guess it's a matter of being respectful.
RE: Orion Empire and Free Will - zedro - 03-20-2021
(03-20-2021, 08:35 PM)EvolvingPhoenix Wrote: No. STO unity is less individualistic and from what I can tell, has less room for individual thought as such. There is more confirmity.
Well we will have to disagree on that
And conformity is a very specific word, it has different implications than harmony or unity, as it suggests an enforced bending of ones will to transform oneself to an ideal (and who sets the ideal?). The ones who demand conformity in this realm are definitely not positive types, or are at least very distorted (religious/cult types).
RE: Orion Empire and Free Will - EvolvingPhoenix - 03-20-2021
(03-20-2021, 08:36 PM)zedro Wrote: As far as not getting 'personal', I guess there's a distinction between historical figures (i.e. dead people) vs those still here. Of course it gets tricky when those deceased are close to the institution, but there are lessons to be learned from their actions as they are inextricably tied to the material. So I guess it's a matter of being respectful.
Maybe. But whether you consider something "respectful" or not is still subject to oersonal bias. Because somebody might mean no disrespect, but dispassionately call a spade a spade and put forth the assertion that someone is a sociopath, not really intending it as an insult, just a matter of fact. And that may offend. So if you CHOOSE to get offended by an observation and take it as an attack, then you may choose to project a lack of respect onto it. Tell me, what is the respectful way of addressing an elephant in the room and pointing out so ebody's sociopathic tendencies? I have noticed that "respect" has been used as an excuse to enforce tyrranical impositions on peoples' speech, thinking, beliefs and even moral decisions since the dawn of human civilization.
For example, let's take the highly authoritarian philosophy of Confuscious and his idea known as filial piety. According to this idea, you must show proper "respect" to figures deemed by society to be authority figures by oneying their co,mands unconditionally, even if you disagree. Oh, you are allowed to disagree with the decision and vkice your disenting opinion, but must obey anyway, even if you find it morally repugnant. You know, out of "respect"
And of course, if one finds something wrong with this philosophy of "respect" through unconditional obedience, one must "respect" the cultural differences of thkse who espouse it by not assertig it to be a morally inferior philosophy to one which espouses critical thinking and acting in accordance with one's own moral philosophy, even when it opposes the demands of authority figures. You know, because asserting unconditiomal obedience to be an inferior philosophy means you have "disrespected" another cukture and are therefor xenophobic.
This is just an example. I have said it before, and I shall say it again: manners are frequently used as a tool to silence dissent and police peoples' behaviour into conforming with unhealthy status quos, because even pointing put the flaws of a flawed norm, belief, influential figure, philosophy or system is considered "disrespectful" and therefor a punishable offense.
So what is then "respectful" way to address such an elephant in the room?
Because in my view, it's a pretty big elephant.
RE: Orion Empire and Free Will - zedro - 03-20-2021
(03-20-2021, 08:57 PM)EvolvingPhoenix Wrote: So what is then "respectful" way to address such an elephant in the room?
Because in my view, it's a pretty big elephant.
Hell if I know, this is coming from a guy that has brought up Dons suicide on more than one occasion. Maybe I really mean 'thoughtful', but maybe that's not quite clear either lol
RE: Orion Empire and Free Will - zedro - 03-20-2021
(03-20-2021, 08:43 PM)zedro Wrote:(03-20-2021, 08:35 PM)EvolvingPhoenix Wrote: No. STO unity is less individualistic and from what I can tell, has less room for individual thought as such. There is more confirmity.
Well we will have to disagree on that
And conformity is a very specific word, it has different implications than harmony or unity, as it suggests an enforced bending of ones will to transform oneself to an ideal (and who sets the ideal?). The ones who demand conformity in this realm are definitely not positive types, or are at least very distorted (religious/cult types).
Just to add an analogy to my thought, I would view STO as choosing to be among friends, and STS to be more like being part of a corporation. Both have aspects of 'conformity', which is why I feel it's a loaded and imprecise word.
RE: Orion Empire and Free Will - Black Dragon - 03-20-2021
(03-20-2021, 09:05 PM)zedro Wrote:(03-20-2021, 08:43 PM)zedro Wrote:(03-20-2021, 08:35 PM)EvolvingPhoenix Wrote: No. STO unity is less individualistic and from what I can tell, has less room for individual thought as such. There is more confirmity.
Well we will have to disagree on that
And conformity is a very specific word, it has different implications than harmony or unity, as it suggests an enforced bending of ones will to transform oneself to an ideal (and who sets the ideal?). The ones who demand conformity in this realm are definitely not positive types, or are at least very distorted (religious/cult types).
Just to add an analogy to my thought, I would view STO as choosing to be among friends, and STS to be more like being part of a corporation. Both have aspects of 'conformity', which is why I feel it's a loaded and imprecise word.
Yeah all of this is why STS reasoning(and perhaps certain STO distortions like martyrdom and self denial) can only be justified up to a certain point, that point being the realization that there is actually no conflict between oneness and individuality. That requires accepting paradox. Some people, including higher density beings, just aren't even at that point yet, and still...well you could definitely say "conform"... to false dichotomies. This would be like the Orion 6d STS that think their STS path is so libertarian/non conformist...well that's just a self-righteous and deluded crock of buffalo s*** if I ever heard one. It's ridiculous and laughable recruitment propaganda. I know better as a matter of experience.
RE: Orion Empire and Free Will - EvolvingPhoenix - 03-20-2021
(03-20-2021, 08:43 PM)zedro Wrote:(03-20-2021, 08:35 PM)EvolvingPhoenix Wrote: No. STO unity is less individualistic and from what I can tell, has less room for individual thought as such. There is more confirmity.
Well we will have to disagree on that
And conformity is a very specific word, it has different implications than harmony or unity, as it suggests an enforced bending of ones will to transform oneself to an ideal (and who sets the ideal?). The ones who demand conformity in this realm are definitely not positive types, or are at least very distorted (religious/cult types).
In STS society, you are supposed to determine your own ideals, and live in service to thkse ideals. If you enslave yourself to another, you are expected to do so because it furthers YOUR interests to do so, therefor, your ideals. If there is a stronger entity who serves your mutually aligned ideals, servimg them is helping them serve thise ideals, and therefor yourself. But you are serving them not because you are expected to serve that ideal which is not your own, but because you have determined for yourself the ideal, and thatnserving such an emtity is what best alugns with your rational self interest. The moment you become stronger than your master, you prove to be the entity more strongly aligned with your ideals, thus providing you the authority to determine how those ideals are best served.
The religious cults are not positive, no. But theynare not sufficiently negative formharvest either. As I have said earlier, all I see around me on this planet are examples of how NOT to walk either path. Both have much posturing all over the earth. Inwoukd posit based on what I have seen that New Age culture is every bit as much of a fake-posotive, self righteous, conformity demanding cult as any Abrahamic faith. Full of self righteous hypocrites who purport to be positive and loving towards other, but whose decision making and behaviour often suggrsts a distinct LACK of understanding, compassion or acceptance of thise who probably need it the most. Frequently full of harsh self righteous judgements, which are often nicewashed with fake positive rationalizations and self-contradictions and spin. More often than not doing "positive" things or putting on "positive" appearances in fear of their image looking bad or their morally pure self image being tarnished. Trying to be "good people" instead of honest ones. Like the Abrahamic faiths, living in fear of external judgement, even if unconsciously. Frequemtly, morally grandstanding. Often doing benevolent deeds to score brownie points so they "raise their bubration" enough to get into heaven- I'm sorry, I mean, Positive 4th density utopia.
Just as you take the Abrahamic death cults and mainstream LHP circles as bad examples of the STS path, so too can one take the New Age movement, and most of it's "starseeds" as bad examples of how to walk the RHP.
If you delve into LHP circles, you will find theynare FILLED with people who left their respective circles (either Abrahamic religion or New Age RHP circles, usually) because they were turned off by the self righteous, grandstanding, hypocritical bullshit. Just like many who leave LHP or Abrahamic circles for new age spirituality because they were turned off by the same thing. On this planet, being your true self is the uktimate challenge, for everything seems designed to keep you frommdoing so, and everyone likes to point the finger for that and blame everyone and everything but themselves and the movements or circles they are a part of. RHP blames LHP and vice versa. Not so commonly do people take an honest look at themselves and their own cultures. And when somebody comes along and goes against the group think mentality, rocking the boat and pointing out uncomfortable things such communities and/or people dont want to have to look at, they tend to be met with castigation, including in RHP circles.
Because they feel "disrespected" by the uncomfortable truth being pointed out.
if the emporer has no clothes and insists that he is just wesring invisible clothes, it is considered "disrespectful" to call him on his bullshit and tell him he is naked. People often refuse to point out the uncomfortable truths because they fear the consequences of "disrespecting" the emporer by rocking the boat, but it needs to be done. Which is the point of that story.
Yet both LHP and RHP circles tend to be full of communities who refuse to allow for that kind of transgression, necause they all tend to get defensive.
So as I was pointing out earlier, it helps to separate the idea/philosphy/path/whatever from the people who may or may not be properly adhering to it, and judge it on it's own terms. If we are judging based on the followers, both paths are s***, by and large.
RE: Orion Empire and Free Will - EvolvingPhoenix - 03-20-2021
(03-20-2021, 09:05 PM)zedro Wrote:(03-20-2021, 08:43 PM)zedro Wrote:(03-20-2021, 08:35 PM)EvolvingPhoenix Wrote: No. STO unity is less individualistic and from what I can tell, has less room for individual thought as such. There is more confirmity.
Well we will have to disagree on that
And conformity is a very specific word, it has different implications than harmony or unity, as it suggests an enforced bending of ones will to transform oneself to an ideal (and who sets the ideal?). The ones who demand conformity in this realm are definitely not positive types, or are at least very distorted (religious/cult types).
Just to add an analogy to my thought, I would view STO as choosing to be among friends, and STS to be more like being part of a corporation. Both have aspects of 'conformity', which is why I feel it's a loaded and imprecise word.
From what I have gathered, Orion soldiers and the like can absokutely view their comrades as friends. They just habe a different way of getting on with their friends, and they are more discerning and exclusive about who they deem appropriate/worthy of such a label. They do not view all other-selves as "friends" Looking at the Ra channelings, ot is clear that Confederation entities do.
RE: Orion Empire and Free Will - Aion - 03-20-2021
This whole conversation cracks me up a little bit. (In a light-hearted way, of course.) Pigeon-holing either "positive" or "negative" paths seems to me to be more like the projection of desires onto a dualistic belief system, which ironically is the thing I think we're trying to look beyond.
STS and STO will be whatever people want them to be in order to justify their own choice of activity, and the truth is going to be thrown from one side to the next til we're all blue.
There isn't some third-party "path" with its own self-identity, the "positive" and "negative" paths are not "things in themselves" but just a morally philosophical way of discussing the element of choice in reality. "The Path" doesn't have polarity, it is one, and it can lead through many environments. At least, that's how it appears to me.
There are "positive" adepts who completely detach themselves from other-selves, and "negative" adepts who are highly social and 'friendly', and vice versa.
The same does not always beget the same either I think. A highly "positive" environment does not assure positivity for all, nor does the opposite assure negativity. There is always the freedom of will and the response to catalyst. Even Ra had their share of negative outgrowths and schisms.
From what I understand, both positive and negative paths strive towards individuation (I think it's the natural drive of the primal will, tbh) and I sorta think it's a projection from religion to think either would move towards conformity. There is perhaps more 'consideration' on the 'positive' side (or perhaps a more liberal use), but there is certainly just as much unique individuality on both sides from what I've experienced. In my opinion, those tending towards conformity are likely still somewhere in the sinkhole.
RE: Orion Empire and Free Will - EvolvingPhoenix - 03-20-2021
@Ymarsakar,
First off, allow me to adress your assertion that secret "Illuminati" type cabals exist and that anyone telling me otherwise is disinfo: I am getting this from harvestably negative entities who are schmoozing with Orion top brass directly. Neither they, nor Orion top brass would consider it beneficial tomlie, as that is considered the plebian way of deception, often fraught with self-sabotage. If they explitly say there is no Illuminiti-like cabal, there isn't. They WANT there to be, but there isn't.
Truth be told, as much as I respect and appreciate the empire and it's culture, as well as all M-sama and others have done for me, I dislike that agenda quite a bit, and even if I harvest, and do so negatively, I doubt I will be joining the Orion empire, or ANY empire should I do so. I am growing increasingly sick of fascism, and I do not see any real difference between it and socialism. Truth be told, I view the notion that they are separate and opposite ideologies to be complete bullshit, based upon lies made up by defensive socialists who did not want to be associated with Hitler or his National Socialist movement, but when you look at a lot of claims for why they are separate, you find many flaws and even downright fabrications. Whatever I do, whenever I harvest, I intend to walk my own path and not have some hierchical authoritarians telling me what to do. Perhaps I shoukd learn the ways of the Death Defier? I do not know. But joining a fascist empire when I leave is not for me. It's why I didn't join the military. Thiugh I am having second thoughts on that, as World War 3 seems increasingly likely, and as much as I have a problem with Western Imperialism, I have a bigger problem with Communist tyranny.
Secondly, I looked at that guy Zaxon's thread. And yeah, it sounds more or less pretty much like all then LHP philosophy I habe hears from serious sources.
RE: Orion Empire and Free Will - EvolvingPhoenix - 03-20-2021
(03-20-2021, 09:51 PM)Aion Wrote: This whole conversation cracks me up a little bit. (In a light-hearted way, of course.) Pigeon-holing either "positive" or "negative" paths seems to me to be little more than the projection of desires onto a dualistic belief system, which ironically is the thing I think we're trying to look beyond.
STS and STO will be whatever people want them to be in order to justify their own choice of activity, and the truth is going to be thrown from one side to the next til we're all blue.
There isn't some third-party "path" with its own self-identity, the "positive" and "negative" paths are not "things in themselves" but just a morally philosophical way of discussing the element of choice in reality. "The Path" doesn't have polarity, it is one, and it can lead through many environments.
There are "positive" adepts who completely detach themselves from other-selves, and "negative" adepts who are highly social and 'friendly', and vice versa.
The same does not always beget the same either I think. A highly "positive" environment does not assure positivity for all, nor does the opposite assure negativity. There is always the freedom of will and the response to catalyst. Even Ra had their share of negative outgrowths and schisms.
From what I understand, both positive and negative paths strive towards individuation, I think it's a projection from religion to think either would move towards conformity. There is perhaps more 'consideration' on the 'positive' side, but there is certainly just as much unique individuality on both sides from what I've experienced. In my opinion, those tending towards conformity are likely still somewhere in the sinkhole.
Nobody is denying most of what you said, except for the last bit, which is a fair point actually.
Nonetheless, my point about most people and circles who orient their philosophies in either direction tend to be full of s*** and generally poor examples how to go about either path. While you CAN just chalk up any and all criticisms up to self projection of you want, it would probably be a better idea to consider the point being made. To each their own however.
RE: Orion Empire and Free Will - Patrick - 03-20-2021
The example one makes of its existence could hardly be grasped just from posts on this forum.
RE: Orion Empire and Free Will - Aion - 03-20-2021
(03-20-2021, 10:56 PM)EvolvingPhoenix Wrote:(03-20-2021, 09:51 PM)Aion Wrote: This whole conversation cracks me up a little bit. (In a light-hearted way, of course.) Pigeon-holing either "positive" or "negative" paths seems to me to be little more than the projection of desires onto a dualistic belief system, which ironically is the thing I think we're trying to look beyond.
STS and STO will be whatever people want them to be in order to justify their own choice of activity, and the truth is going to be thrown from one side to the next til we're all blue.
There isn't some third-party "path" with its own self-identity, the "positive" and "negative" paths are not "things in themselves" but just a morally philosophical way of discussing the element of choice in reality. "The Path" doesn't have polarity, it is one, and it can lead through many environments.
There are "positive" adepts who completely detach themselves from other-selves, and "negative" adepts who are highly social and 'friendly', and vice versa.
The same does not always beget the same either I think. A highly "positive" environment does not assure positivity for all, nor does the opposite assure negativity. There is always the freedom of will and the response to catalyst. Even Ra had their share of negative outgrowths and schisms.
From what I understand, both positive and negative paths strive towards individuation, I think it's a projection from religion to think either would move towards conformity. There is perhaps more 'consideration' on the 'positive' side, but there is certainly just as much unique individuality on both sides from what I've experienced. In my opinion, those tending towards conformity are likely still somewhere in the sinkhole.
Nobody is denying most of what you said, except for the last bit, which is a fair point actually.
Nonetheless, my point about most people and circles who orient their philosophies in either direction tend to be full of s*** and generally poor examples how to go about either path. While you CAN just chalk up any and all criticisms up to self projection of you want, it would probably be a better idea to consider the point being made. To each their own however.
I did not say anything of criticisms at all, I said pigeon-holing by which I simply mean viewing them with too much strictness in terms of "proper form".
That is to say, I am wary of saying "STS is like xyz", or "STO is like xyz", because I do not think these concepts are applicable. There are only entities which have tendencies or choices of behaviour which can be analyzed with the dualistic philosophy of "STO and STS", but these are mental constructs of analysis. That does not mean invalid, as some have a tendency of thinking whenever you reference things being of the mind that it is a suggestion of unreality, but the contents and experience of the mind is very real for those experiencing it. Simply, I differentiate between the tools of analysis and the reality of action. I am not yet convinced that there is some great tableau somewhere keeping a tally of everyone's polarity, as amusing as the thought is.
I think the perspectives you offer are perfectly valid, and not ones I am unfamiliar with either, but I only ever offer that there is still yet diversity in these things to be discovered and enjoyed.
Also, to be clear, I think everything everyone says pretty much is a self-projection to some degree, myself included, so there's nothing personal in that statement. It's just how the personality works I think, but as you say, call a spade a spade.
RE: Orion Empire and Free Will - Ymarsakar - 03-20-2021
"I am getting this from harvestably negative entities who are schmoozing with Orion top brass directly."
I understand that. What you should understand is their rank in comparison to my own. THat's not something most people will know, although your negative entities might, hence the greeting pass to them.
I wouldn't call them "top brass" necessarily. They are more like water boys, although my pov is a bit unique in that sense.
"Neither they, nor Orion top brass would consider it beneficial tomlie, as that is considered the plebian way of deception, often fraught with self-sabotage. If they explitly say there is no Illuminiti-like cabal, there isn't. They WANT there to be, but there isn't."
The soul group in charge of the OPFOR/Opposition/Satan title is not Orion or their henchmen or empire. It is Heyl-El's soul group. This isn't all that different from what humanity was told by YHVH in the past even after the mistranslations and editing.
Heyl-el's mission is to deceive and not create a negative harvest. This provided an opportunity for negative Draconians and other people near the Orion stargates, to achieve certain missions here, but that does not mean all positive or negative groups share the same mission.
"Would you say in one of the forums here, that Diana is an unfeeling sociopath (assuming you thought it to be true, and incidentally you wouldn't be the first person to think that of me)?"
I actually think Diana has achieved a precursor chakra balance to my own, which is "neutral observer".
But generally speaking, I use terms like "sociopath" not as a pejorative or label, but as a human language tool to communicate with those that think of certain concepts in those words. In the case of Don and Zaxon, it's mostly a matter of academic research and analysis. Unless we try to medium channel Don (which can easily be done) or Zaxon's new and improved self (somewhere out in the astral).
As for STo conformity, archangels or what Iamraw refers to as higher density entities, willingly give up their free will, so to speak. This may be the "conformity" Phoenix was translating the concept as. It is not conformity as humanity thinks of it, but more like harmony or unity. People are so unified, they finish each other's sentences. Higher density archangels know the Will of the Creator, so they don't need an "ego" will in addition to that.
Your biological and spiritual diversity will be added to the collective. Resistance is futile. All those of the dark and light, you are recalled home to Source, whether you like it or not. Remember that at a certain level of knowledge, the primal distortion is "Free will".
I couldn't find a few quotes I wanted, but I did find a few useful ones.
"47.6 Questioner: Well, what I was actually asking was if 50% is required for graduation from third to fourth in the positive sense, 95% is required for graduation in the negative sense, does this have to more closely approach 100% in both cases for graduation from fourth to fifth? Does an entity have to be 99% polarized for negative and maybe 80% polarized for positive graduation from fourth to fifth?
Ra: I am Ra. We perceive the query now.
To give this in your terms is misleading for there are, shall we say, visual aids or training aids available in fourth density which automatically aid the entity in polarization while cutting down extremely upon the quick effect of catalyst. Thus the density above yours must take up more space/time.
The percentage of service to others of positively oriented entities will harmoniously approach 98% in intention. The qualifications for fifth density, however, involve understanding. This then, becomes the primary qualification for graduation from fourth to fifth density. To achieve this graduation the entity must be able to understand the actions, the movements, and the dance. There is no percentage describable which measures this understanding. It is a measure of efficiency of perception. It may be measured by light. The ability to love, accept, and use a certain intensity of light thus creates the requirement for both positive and negative fourth to fifth harvesting."
https://www.lawofone.info/s/47#6
"77.17 Questioner: Now, would it be possible for this work of our density to be performed if all of the sub-Logoi chose the same polarity in any particular expression or evolution of a Logos? Let us make the assumption that our sun created nothing but, through the first distortion, there was no product except positive polarity. Would work then be done in fourth density and higher as a function only of this positive polarization evolving from our original creation of sub-Logos?
Ra: I am Ra. Elements of this query illustrate the reason I was unable to answer your previous question without knowledge of the Logos involved. To turn to your question, there were Logoi which chose to set the plan for the activation of mind/body/spirit complexes through each true-color body without recourse to the prior application of free will. It is, to our knowledge, only in an absence of free will that the conditions of which you speak obtain. In such a procession of densities you find an extraordinarily long, as you measure time, third density; likewise, fourth density. Then, as the entities begin to see the Creator, there is a very rapid, as you measure time, procession towards the eighth density. This is due to the fact that one who knows not, cares not.
Let us illustrate by observing the relative harmony and unchanging quality of existence in one of your, as you call it, primitive tribes. The entities have the concepts of lawful and taboo, but the law is inexorable and all events occur as predestined. There is no concept of right and wrong, good or bad. It is a culture in monochrome. In this context you may see the one you call Lucifer as the true light-bringer in that the knowledge of good and evil both precipitated the mind/body/spirits of this Logos from the Edenic conditions of constant contentment but also provided the impetus to move, to work and to learn.
Those Logoi whose creations have been set up without free will have not, in the feeling of those Logoi, given the Creator the quality and variety of experience of Itself as have those Logoi which have incorporated free will as paramount. Thusly you find those Logoi moving through the timeless states at what you would see as a later space/time to choose the free will character when elucidating the foundations of each Logos."
This one is particularly useful for researching and confirming the Hidden Hand and Era testimonies/whistleblowers/leaks.
RE: Orion Empire and Free Will - Dtris - 03-21-2021
(03-20-2021, 11:43 PM)Ymarsakar Wrote: Your biological and spiritual diversity will be added to the collective. Resistance is futile. All those of the dark and light, you are recalled home to Source, whether you like it or not. Remember that at a certain level of knowledge, the primal distortion is "Free will".
The primal distortion is free will. A collective is not something which embodies the concept of free will, or harmony. Harmony implies that their are unique and separate notes which when played together beneficially work together. You cannot make a harmony of the same note on different points on the scale.
Conformity IMO can never be a valid part of the STO path. Perhaps Evolving Phoenix is right and it is not a path of STS either. Conform literally means to change the shape to fit. If you have to change then the STO society is not accepting of the individual differences. If you conform in a STS society you would be failing to progress as you have to have an independent will and desire to be able to dominate and control others to further that will and desire.
If I am wrong then I guess I wlill just hang out in 3D until the universe ends and is reabsorbed into the creator. But IMO again I think that even in that circumstance the individual still exists, otherwise what was the exercise for?
RE: Orion Empire and Free Will - Black Dragon - 03-21-2021
I see the creator more as a mosaic or puzzle where every piece fits uniquely than a homogenous mass of grey goo or borg overmind type deal, if that helps the discussion about reconciling oneness and individuality any.
RE: Orion Empire and Free Will - zedro - 03-21-2021
(03-21-2021, 09:39 PM)Dtris Wrote: If I am wrong then I guess I wlill just hang out in 3D until the universe ends and is reabsorbed into the creator. But IMO again I think that even in that circumstance the individual still exists, otherwise what was the exercise for?
Wanderers wander not just for service, but to send back experience to the SMC. So the experience is unique and based on the individual who is tasked, and everyone benefits.
I think we are all way over simplifying concepts here, and letting our egos preferences be projected instead of the higher/true self. That being said STS still seems like hell and is terrifying to me
RE: Orion Empire and Free Will - Black Dragon - 03-21-2021
(03-21-2021, 10:09 PM)zedro Wrote:(03-21-2021, 09:39 PM)Dtris Wrote: If I am wrong then I guess I wlill just hang out in 3D until the universe ends and is reabsorbed into the creator. But IMO again I think that even in that circumstance the individual still exists, otherwise what was the exercise for?
Wanderers wander not just for service, but to send back experience to the SMC. So the experience is unique and based on the individual who is tasked, and everyone benefits.
I think we are all way over simplifying concepts here, and letting our egos preferences be projected instead of the higher/true self. That being said STS still seems like hell and is terrifying to me
STS plays its role in the polarity/getting to know yourself/free will aspects, but ultimately is a dead end and not as rich an experience as STO, just comparing the two separately, though having the experience and then transitioning to STO can build character in unique ways that aren't necessarily a waste of time, though not the most efficient and sometimes painful. The part of STS I find most detestable has to do with the 3d realm mostly, which is preying on and manipulating and making miserable unpolarized/polarizing and STO innocents. I find it disgusting when it's 3d on 3d, and I find it disgusting when higher density STS beings play games with 3d planets and feed off people's misery.
The 4d and above STS, while bleak and grim, affords some options for the STS experience to be more discerning with their principles. You don't necessarily have to be a monster that preys on innocents. It's not as repugnant to me because there are no innocent victims, only other STS competitors. It gets tiring and its a dead end that can feel unfulfilling, but at least conquest and competition against fellow STS doesn't carry the weight and stigma of being a monster to innocent victims/a coward who can't pick on people their own size and preys on the innocent and weak.
5d and up, it's easy to avoid conflict and combat completely, even with other STS, and it is also possible to polarize all by yourself without having to feed on anyone's misery or enslave 3d beings or be a part of planetary ascension games. This solo self-pursuit without entropy is possible and effective up to 6d where the time to integrate/entropy starts.
It's a tough path being "the boogeyman's boogeyman", but its possible to never hurt innocents or STO and just serve yourself against monsters and predators. While you have little to no polarity room to stop and care about those you are helping by doing it other than about their value or service to you, at least a person on this path would just be screwing over others who deserve it. You go into the dungeon and kill the big bosses and monsters, uproot your overlords and take their positions and stuff, but obviously are not going to share/robin hood unless it serves you to enrich your underlings, but aren't a monster that screws innocents either.
Perhaps even, in a weird case, a person in 3d might be able, knowing what they are doing, to polarize STS through intense discipline and introspection without ever enslaving or manipulating/preying on another self to do so, but it would be really, really challenging. They would have to probably be born into the right resources to take care of 3d s*** or acquire those in a somewhat honest manner, then just go crawl up their own ass metaphysically speaking and forget about the rest of humanity and leave it to burn while they pursued high level STS self-seeking of the magical personality.
I detest screwing innocents but if I were randomly dropped into a 4d STS environment without having to worry about that, I'd have no problem making my way up. Still, having been there and done that and knowing better and fuller ways to exercise my free will and serve self/others/creation, I just don't see the point or logic of following the STS path anymore. It's a stepping stone for some people like being a hardcore atheist or fundamentalist Christian. Once you've broken the paradigm and realized how silly it is it's damn near impossible to go back.
RE: Orion Empire and Free Will - Ymarsakar - 03-21-2021
"Conformity IMO can never be a valid part of the STO path."
Conformity is a human concept that needs to go bye bye if you wish to penetrate deeper into the higher density concepts. Without the necessity of free will, there is no conformity and there is no anti conformity or non conformity.
Does water need to conform to itself?
What are the logical implications of primal distortion=free will?
RE: Orion Empire and Free Will - Black Dragon - 03-21-2021
The universe is both individuality and oneness, just like an ocean and drops are both water(going on Ymar's metaphor a bit). It's both these things, but neither in mutual exclusion of the other. It's more useful when faced with paradox to try to reconcile, integrate, and accept it rather than swinging to one side and digging the heels in.
RE: Orion Empire and Free Will - Black Dragon - 03-21-2021
(03-20-2021, 08:35 PM)EvolvingPhoenix Wrote: No. STO unity is less individualistic and from what I can tell, has less room for individual thought as such. There is more confirmity.
There is as much or as little "conformity" on the STO path as you make of it.
RE: Orion Empire and Free Will - Ymarsakar - 03-21-2021
Also to define terms, STS means 'Service to self at the expense of others' and STO means "Service to Self and others as self, in harmony with all".
These concepts are veiled at the root definition sense, because the full definitions are not even given. Thus allowing people to "misinterpret" as they will.
At the 6th density flip, STO thinks STS flipped. From the STS pov, the STO flipped. What does this mean? Well, I'll let the law of confusion work on that one.
RE: Orion Empire and Free Will - flofrog - 03-22-2021
Thank you so much for all these beautiful posts, Ymar, Black Dragon , Zedro and others
RE: Orion Empire and Free Will - LeafieGreens - 03-22-2021
(03-22-2021, 03:44 PM)flofrog Wrote: Thank you so much for all these beautiful posts, Ymar, Black Dragon , Zedro and others
Agreed. Thanks all for this discussion.
I've been struggling with my sense of identity lately as it applies to, well, everything.
I like the mosaic analogy Black Dragon. That really helped me. Much gratitude.
Keep up the great discussions. All of it is pertinent to what we are all experiencing. It's nice to see I'm not alone in these discoveries (yes, I know none of us are ever, truly alone, but I'm still shedding 3D perceptions here.
)
RE: Orion Empire and Free Will - Ymarsakar - 03-22-2021
To those that can make use of the knowledge, they will be granted the opportunity. To those that are not ready for the mid terms or final exam, this will seem as if it makes no sense: non sense.
That is exactly as intended, in this universe reform school. Nothing is out of place. Nothing is disharmonious in the total viewpoint.
From a human pov, did people make mistakes as children and regret certain events and outcomes? Yes. But without that experience, would they be the same person? Would they redo everything and delete their current selves?
"I did not say anything of criticisms at all, I said pigeon-holing by which I simply mean viewing them with too much strictness in terms of "proper form"."
A minor comment on the Aion x Phoenix discussion. This simulation or reform school, is very diverse. Meaning, are there STO societies and STS societies that fit the descriptions by Phoenix? Yes, but there are many many more that do not. Diversity.
Thousands of civilizations all function the same way because they have a human label called STS or STO on them? No, why would it work like that? That's not interesting to the Source.
Perhaps Aion perceives this diversity and does not believe all civilizations are clone copies of another, hence pigeon holing?
RE: Orion Empire and Free Will - Ymarsakar - 03-22-2021
I cannot speak for others, only myself. It may be that those you perceive as having an STS orientation seek to "bring sheep into the flock." However, these attempts would only have the effect of neutralizing and confusing someone who is fundamentally of an STO orientation. None plumb the depths of STS understanding, to the point of achieving harvestability, without knowing exactly what they are getting into. Speaking from my own perspective, I have no need for sheep, save for those that reside on the end of my fork. STS societies are more akin to a pack of wolves, than sheep. Every person I have encountered who is STS inclined has had a somewhat predatory and virulently independent way about them. They are not the sort of people who are lead - they resent anyone who trys to lead them anywhere. Every idea is challenged and disputed until reason dictates only one answer.
The STO society seeks harmonization of self with other-selves. Both the peaks and valleys of a society come to be a consistent plane, as weak are aided by the middling and strong, and the strongest serve all. The self necessarily becomes dissipated into other-selves, as the collective becomes the only possible identity one may have, with each fervently striving towards finding self in other-selves. In this social configuration both the self and individual free will become nominal aspects of the greater communal will and societal identity. As you so often say, the self is an illusion that must be discarded. The STO entity indulges in the illusion that this unity with the societal self is unity with the al encompassing Creator, even though it retains its collective biases and foibles, and remains only an aspect of creation.
The STO oriented person may see this unity with other-selves as desirous, and those who do so are welcome to it. However, to me this society is nothing short of death and slavery, demeaning both free will and the individual as Creator. As the STO society indulges in their illusion of other-selves as Creator, I will indulge in my own, as self as Creator. All are right and all are wrong, and this is the paradox of creation which none can escape until all are truly reunited with Creator. There will come a time, I would agree, when all unify with the Creator in all its aspects and all differences are ameliorated. However, by that time I suspect the differences between self and other-selves will be so few that union is not so repugnant. The STO will say, the STS has finally come to see the light and has switched to STO polarity. The STS will say, the STO has finally come to see that they are themselves the Creator, and needed no one else after all. However, until that time the pantomime goes on.
-Zaxon
https://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthread.php?tid=4171&pid=75020#pid75020
Random click on a page in that thread. I had read up to around that point, although not the latest pages.
RE: Orion Empire and Free Will - Aion - 03-22-2021
(03-22-2021, 08:54 PM)Ymarsakar Wrote: To those that can make use of the knowledge, they will be granted the opportunity. To those that are not ready for the mid terms or final exam, this will seem as if it makes no sense: non sense.
That is exactly as intended, in this universe reform school. Nothing is out of place. Nothing is disharmonious in the total viewpoint.
From a human pov, did people make mistakes as children and regret certain events and outcomes? Yes. But without that experience, would they be the same person? Would they redo everything and delete their current selves?
"I did not say anything of criticisms at all, I said pigeon-holing by which I simply mean viewing them with too much strictness in terms of "proper form"."
A minor comment on the Aion x Phoenix discussion. This simulation or reform school, is very diverse. Meaning, are there STO societies and STS societies that fit the descriptions by Phoenix? Yes, but there are many many more that do not. Diversity.
Thousands of civilizations all function the same way because they have a human label called STS or STO on them? No, why would it work like that? That's not interesting to the Source.
Perhaps Aion perceives this diversity and does not believe all civilizations are clone copies of another, hence pigeon holing?
Essentially, yes.
RE: Orion Empire and Free Will - jafar - 03-23-2021
(03-21-2021, 10:45 PM)Black Dragon Wrote:(03-21-2021, 10:09 PM)zedro Wrote:(03-21-2021, 09:39 PM)Dtris Wrote: If I am wrong then I guess I wlill just hang out in 3D until the universe ends and is reabsorbed into the creator. But IMO again I think that even in that circumstance the individual still exists, otherwise what was the exercise for?
Wanderers wander not just for service, but to send back experience to the SMC. So the experience is unique and based on the individual who is tasked, and everyone benefits.
I think we are all way over simplifying concepts here, and letting our egos preferences be projected instead of the higher/true self. That being said STS still seems like hell and is terrifying to me
STS plays its role in the polarity/getting to know yourself/free will aspects, but ultimately is a dead end and not as rich an experience as STO, just comparing the two separately, though having the experience and then transitioning to STO can build character in unique ways that aren't necessarily a waste of time, though not the most efficient and sometimes painful. The part of STS I find most detestable has to do with the 3d realm mostly, which is preying on and manipulating and making miserable unpolarized/polarizing and STO innocents. I find it disgusting when it's 3d on 3d, and I find it disgusting when higher density STS beings play games with 3d planets and feed off people's misery.
The 4d and above STS, while bleak and grim, affords some options for the STS experience to be more discerning with their principles. You don't necessarily have to be a monster that preys on innocents. It's not as repugnant to me because there are no innocent victims, only other STS competitors. It gets tiring and its a dead end that can feel unfulfilling, but at least conquest and competition against fellow STS doesn't carry the weight and stigma of being a monster to innocent victims/a coward who can't pick on people their own size and preys on the innocent and weak.
5d and up, it's easy to avoid conflict and combat completely, even with other STS, and it is also possible to polarize all by yourself without having to feed on anyone's misery or enslave 3d beings or be a part of planetary ascension games. This solo self-pursuit without entropy is possible and effective up to 6d where the time to integrate/entropy starts.
It's a tough path being "the boogeyman's boogeyman", but its possible to never hurt innocents or STO and just serve yourself against monsters and predators. While you have little to no polarity room to stop and care about those you are helping by doing it other than about their value or service to you, at least a person on this path would just be screwing over others who deserve it. You go into the dungeon and kill the big bosses and monsters, uproot your overlords and take their positions and stuff, but obviously are not going to share/robin hood unless it serves you to enrich your underlings, but aren't a monster that screws innocents either.
Perhaps even, in a weird case, a person in 3d might be able, knowing what they are doing, to polarize STS through intense discipline and introspection without ever enslaving or manipulating/preying on another self to do so, but it would be really, really challenging. They would have to probably be born into the right resources to take care of 3d s*** or acquire those in a somewhat honest manner, then just go crawl up their own ass metaphysically speaking and forget about the rest of humanity and leave it to burn while they pursued high level STS self-seeking of the magical personality.
I detest screwing innocents but if I were randomly dropped into a 4d STS environment without having to worry about that, I'd have no problem making my way up. Still, having been there and done that and knowing better and fuller ways to exercise my free will and serve self/others/creation, I just don't see the point or logic of following the STS path anymore. It's a stepping stone for some people like being a hardcore atheist or fundamentalist Christian. Once you've broken the paradigm and realized how silly it is it's damn near impossible to go back.
Thank you, your description fits well with my observation and experience.
Every finite conception will have it's end anyway.
Orion Empire will fall, just like any other empire.
Human will become extinct, Planet earth will be destroyed, Sun will explode and so does each Stars on Orion constellation.
What will remain is the memory / data about having the experience.
Experiencing something is the thing that every being does, human or alien, wanderer or not wanderer, STSes or STOs or anything in between.
One question that actually puzzled me:
Why and actually how can STS transformed into STO? And vice versa, STO to STS..