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+--- Thread: Why Aren't Men Fighting Back? - The Sexual Assault of Men and Boys (/showthread.php?tid=15056)
RE: Why Aren't Men Fighting Back? - The Sexual Assault of Men and Boys - Stranger - 12-13-2017
(12-13-2017, 08:51 AM)YinYang Wrote:Stranger Wrote:Notice above that 41% of rape cases were found to be false allegations.
I'm sorry Stranger, but this is simply not true...
What kind of person makes false rape accusations?
To be clear, I'm not making the claim that it is the overall rate of false accusations. The 41% figure is the conclusion of a single study of a single sample. Nonetheless, unless you've read the study and disagree with their methods, in that case the 41% rate was in fact true. How it relates to the rate in the overall population is a separate question.
RE: Why Aren't Men Fighting Back? - The Sexual Assault of Men and Boys - Jade - 12-13-2017
I am married to someone who was accused of rape, and it effectively ruined his life from age 17-20. Guess what? He still thinks that this "boogeyman" of false rape allegations is just another way to oppress women. The fact is, she falsely accused him of rape because she was afraid of her father punishing her for having consensual sex. It was still out of fear of what an abusive man in her life might do to her, so this was a means of protecting herself. He holds no anger towards her whatsoever.
As far as the rest of the thread goes, I see in myself where I may have some failings in my attempts at communication. My first big failing, is that often when I reply to posts, I am not replying to the person who I am seeming to reply to, I am addressing the forum at large, the countless lurkers who will read my posts in perpetuity. That causes me to look at explaining the bigger picture, which causes me to ignore the nuances of the interaction with the person's words I am directly addressing. This comes to a head when someone like Joseph posts very strong opinions that are based on events that have happened to him and those close to him, when I'm trying to look at trends for the greater picture. So, I accidentally invalidate one person's experiences while trying to validate the experiences of a larger group.
The other thing I fail to take into consideration thoroughly when making a post, is that my in-person human is very small, gentle, and soft-spoken. I think the people who have met me can vouch that there is nothing intimidating or aggressive about my demeanor in person. So, I think it's possible that I take that gentleness in my physical demeanor for granted, and I don't account for how people *read my words* independent of knowing from physical proximity that I don't have a mean bone or ulterior motive residing within me. So, integrating that gentleness into an online demeanor is something I need to work on. HOWEVER, on the flip side, I want to point out how lopsided it is, not just here but everywhere, that when a woman has an opinion and speaks her mind, she is often considered "shrill" and "forceful", or other connotations of these types. I feel a part of that is being projected onto my words, because sometimes I really fail to see where I failed so poorly in my delivery that someone could misconstrue me as being judgemental, manipulative, attacking, etc.
I think talking about the issues that men face is a legitimate conversation that should be had often. HOWEVER, I don't think it should be *in lieu of* talking about the issues that women face. I wish we could start the conversation from a place of legitimacy, but maybe that's asking too much. It's just when we get all these strawmen about things that "women in power" have done, it seems like we're on a different planet. For instance, Dante's initial OP has many, many strawmen - specifically that the media doesn't talk about sexual abuse of women to men/boys. Dante specifically mentions teachers who have sex with their students, but still giving the straw man that "nobody talks about it". Women who have sex with their male students are definitely paraded through the media.
Another example of a strawman that I would like to address was one small one that Joseph made. Joseph, you said something along the lines (I can't find the specific line) about how he hates that when women say that all men are part of the patriarchy, that it hurts you. But I haven't seen anyone here make any claims of the such, so defending yourself from that opinion is a waste of energy. You've also claimed that "it's okay to beat men but you can't hit a woman" - when has that been okay??? Another one was that you said that "We can't replace the patriarchy with a matriarchy" and that is so far from what is happening right now that it's hardly worth addressing.
I also am quite shocked to hear complaints about pop culture's portrayal of men in general through media. You complained about Star Trek TNG, where many of the themes are inherently sexist. I could probably recount each episode I watch anew in this thread. Last night, Deanna was forced into an arranged marriage, but her suitor had been dreaming of another women his whole life, and later on she appeared, so he abandoned Deanna and his family without saying anything to them to run away with her. 99.9999% of modern stories involve having a "damsel in distress" and a man who rescues her, and it's not in a balanced way. Have you ever heard of the Bechdel test? The Bechdel test is a simple test for movie scripts: Are there two women in the story, who have a conversation about something other than one of the male characters? Most major films FAIL this test, and most film courses in college teach students that their scripts HAVE to fail this test to be accepted by a major production!! So when I hear that Fez had to dress like a lady, I'm not exactly feeling like he's being systemically oppressed by society. The fact that you find insult when you see a man in a dress is further engaging with the stereotype of women being weak and lesser than men - and the fact is, it's MEN who perpetuate these negative thoughts, men who continue to make you feel bad for identifying with a woman - not other women.
It seems to me that men find comfort in the current paradigm, and this is causing them subconsciously to continue to reinforce the current paradigm, because they are scared of the shift. Possibly legitimate fears, fearing a "matriarchy" is isn't *that* out of bounds, considering our current state of imbalance (though not likely to happen), fearing that you might lose your job for something you did that you felt was "consensual" in the moment but a decade later someone gets the courage to admit that you abused your power over them, that's a legitimate fear. Fearing that what was once okay behavior is no longer okay, and being in the dark about where the current line is. Fearing that women will become "too independent" and no longer see men as a necessary part of their lives, where before a woman was definitely ostracized for not being betrothed. I mean, science has literally made the reproductive function of men obsolete, so as we continue to remove men's "roles" there are vacuums left. There are a lot of shifts happening, and men are losing a lot of advantages over women and in society in general, and I can understand how that's scary and undesirable, and how it feels like your rank in society is being lowered. But you must instead see it as women being *elevated* from their position of repression, and not in a dangerous way to the point where we are going to have some complete shift of power where we will go anywhere near the extreme to which we still currently exist.
Let me give you my most recent example, from media:
There is a new show on Netflix called Godless. Kile's mom was super excited and loved the show, and Kile is a huge fan of westerns, so we decided to give it a chance. The premise is that there is a "town full of women", who were left behind after a mining accident killed all but one of the men. Sounded like an interesting premise, but after two episodes, it was very clear that all of the main characters were men (there are about a dozen of them) and by the end of the second episode, we actually only knew the names of *maybe* four of the women. Episode two was actually titled "The Ladies of La Belle" and there was ONE SCENE that had about 10 women, and they were having a discussion with a mining company about working their claim. Ideally what they wanted was 50/50 ownership of the mine, and there was one woman - the one who dresses like a man and later beds the sexy ex-whore school marm - who stood her ground and had any strength of character. All of the other women outvoted her with a bribe of $20,000 and the promise of 150 men to come to their town, and gave 90% of the claim away to the mining company.
A scene later shows one of the main characters being held in the jail, and him and the deputy are surrounded by baked goods, because the women are so desperate for a man that they are seducing an outlaw. In the scene with the mining company, one of the women explicitly says that everyone who has come through since the men have died has tried to take advantage of them, but even with that foresight, apparently the women are just completely helpless to any man's charms. These are the Ladies of La Belle.
This show was made in 2017. The period it is set in is not excuse. Their premise was intriguing and could have been excellent, instead showing a bunch of women who have gained independence from men, but it's actually too hard to write different characters for dozens of women in that scenario - just because it hasn't been done before. Damsels are easy and exciting. We know how to write all sorts of nuance in the relationships between men. Oh yes, also, both episodes we watched had scenes where women were being raped - and actually showing the rape. Gratuitous.
So, it's really important for women to feel like there have been any attempts made at understanding, truly, the experience of women every day in our society, and the few acceptable ways we have to express ourselves. I'm sorry for feeling this imbalance or feeding into it, but I really believe that there must be some sincere apologies and obvious contrition made to women before women can be expected to feel pity for men's position in society. I'm not saying that women shouldn't even make the effort, as many, many do, but that it shouldn't be expected of them for quite some time. There is still a lot of healing for ALL incarnate women to process, scars from society that go back generations. Addressing that, WITHOUT saying "so now you understand how I as a man feel!" is an important part of this process of "remedial work of fairly significant nature" that Q'uo speaks of in relation to balancing the gender dichotomy on our planet. http://www.llresearch.org/transcripts/issues/2017/2017_0204.aspx
RE: Why Aren't Men Fighting Back? - The Sexual Assault of Men and Boys - APeacefulWarrior - 12-13-2017
Hey Jade, this is moderately off topic, but since you're talking about women in westerns... You might like a show I dug up on Netflix called The Pinkertons, from a few years ago. It's a (sorta) true life murder mystery detective western, set in the late 1860s, and it stars the real-life first female detective in America, Kate Warne. Supposedly the stories are taken from the Pinkertons' actual case files from the time period, but I suspect they've taken a lot of liberties. Either way, it's a western show with a genuinely strong female character front-and-center. Even better that she's a genuine historical figure most people haven't heard of.
So far they've even resisted having her hook up with her ruggedly handsome partner, although I'm only halfway through so no promises.
(OTOH, the barkeep\prostitute running the local saloon who seems to pine for that partner is somewhat less progressive...)
RE: Why Aren't Men Fighting Back? - The Sexual Assault of Men and Boys - Jade - 12-13-2017
(12-13-2017, 12:03 PM)APeacefulWarrior Wrote: Hey Jade, this is moderately off topic, but since you're talking about women in westerns... You might like a show I dug up on Netflix called The Pinkertons, from a few years ago. It's a (sorta) true life murder mystery detective western, set in the late 1860s, and it stars the real-life first female detective in America, Kate Warne. Supposedly the stories are taken from the Pinkertons' actual case files from the time period, but I suspect they've taken a lot of liberties. Either way, it's a western show with a genuinely strong female character front-and-center. Even better that she's a genuine historical figure most people haven't heard of.
So far they've even resisted having her hook up with her ruggedly handsome partner, although I'm only halfway through so no promises.
(OTOH, the barkeep\prostitute running the local saloon who seems to pine for that partner is somewhat less progressive...)
Thank you for sharing! We'll have to give it a chance. I'm not SO strict that I'm against watching shows with any stereotypical female tropes (obvs I love TNG), but a show based upon a town full of damsels and the heroic men who have to save them from the bands of roving rapists is not for me.
RE: Why Aren't Men Fighting Back? - The Sexual Assault of Men and Boys - Diana - 12-13-2017
(12-13-2017, 11:30 AM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote: The other thing I fail to take into consideration thoroughly when making a post, is that my in-person human is very small, gentle, and soft-spoken. I think the people who have met me can vouch that there is nothing intimidating or aggressive about my demeanor in person. So, I think it's possible that I take that gentleness in my physical demeanor for granted, and I don't account for how people *read my words* independent of knowing from physical proximity that I don't have a mean bone or ulterior motive residing within me. So, integrating that gentleness into an online demeanor is something I need to work on. HOWEVER, on the flip side, I want to point out how lopsided it is, not just here but everywhere, that when a woman has an opinion and speaks her mind, she is often considered "shrill" and "forceful", or other connotations of these types. I feel a part of that is being projected onto my words, because sometimes I really fail to see where I failed so poorly in my delivery that someone could misconstrue me as being judgemental, manipulative, attacking, etc.
I personally don't care at all what people may think of me, however, I do care about what I project into the world. The responsibility for how I act and interact in the world is completely mine, but I am not responsible for others' reactions. So, as Jade said above about integrating her gentle manner into an online demeanor, this is something I have also endeavored to do, though in my case it's more respectful than gentle. We are all responsible for our words, and on the screen with no bodily presence this is really challenging. It's a really good mirror here, for us all to hone our communication skills.
There are so many societal judgments, which are meaningless, transitory, and fear-based. Jade, you always come across as gentle to me, but also honest, which I highly respect.
If I were asked to give advice to womanhood in general (which of course no one would do, because who cares about my puny opinion, which I am going to impart anyway
), I would say: Forge ahead through the backwards attitudes; be a spiritual warrior and have courage; be yourself regardless of what society or anyone says or thinks; know that things aren't balanced yet and instead of complaining about it stay focused on being the change; and above all know that you are paving the way to a more evolved existence and stay in that more evolved existence instead of getting sucked back down into the human drama.If I were asked to give advice to men, it would be the same.
It's not easy to be here no matter what anyone says, in my opinion. Personally, I think it's critical to stay focused, but that's me. There are others who, like fish in a current, flow with it all. It's all valid. But I would add that staying detached from the human drama is a critical piece of the puzzle of forward movement.
RE: Why Aren't Men Fighting Back? - The Sexual Assault of Men and Boys - Coordinate_Apotheosis - 12-13-2017
Having just woken up I'm put back a bit so I'm going to fall upon my affirmation to be a certain way.
Jade, all I can say is you perceive things differently from I, and I don't think that's worth arguing over. I will admit that I was emotional, but you seem to have one view over any other that the male is one way and the female another way.
The most sexist thing I recall from Star Trek is the Ferengi race's culture. Which in DS9 eventually is reformed to provide Ferengi women equality after a few hiccups with the grand nagus first by the prophets then by Quark and Rom's mother whom while dating the nagus helped him revise the Rules of Acquisition or at least Ferengi laws regarding women thanks to a woman breaking all the rules and pushing still even in a culture as prejudiced as that on Ferenginar.
No show is devoid of those stereotypes completely I think, so to argue media influence one way or another is beside the point to me because unless we go censor every show with something bad to portray, what's the use beyond admitting that some shows portray things certain ways for whatever reason? To avoid them? To be aware?
I don't want to argue with you, and if as a forum mod you can't discuss this with the understanding that we're all equal and dealing with, as Ra warns when sharing a president's catalyst, the same catalyst. Then I politely suggest you refrain from posting here, or on any thread about sexism as you've already said quite enough to make me feel unwelcome. As have others on this forum, from both sides of the creator's genders. And I suggest anyone whom wants to prove their point over moving towards reconciliation of these pains that they should consider refraining too.
We all know this pain, some more than others, does that make some more or less valid than others?
Can we please move away from these critical views of each other?
I don't want to view anyone as sexist but it's not being made easier, and in leiu of Aion's remarks, I understand it's hard to love people who inflict pain. I'm telling y'all now, I want to discuss how we can view their soul over their 3D actions, and how we all can find forgiveness in this way of those who have hurt us or others. So that we can begin healing what I am beginning to suspect is the most painful catalyst for this forum.
So Jade, right or wrong, I don't know, both, neither. I don't want to argue about sexism, I want to work together to heal it, and to create a new example of how to handle it.
If no one else is ready for that, then I will take my leave as it will be folly on my part to put myself through this stress. Just know I forgive you and others for many hurtful opinions you have of me as a male and things done to me for being a male. I just hope others will do the same.
RE: Why Aren't Men Fighting Back? - The Sexual Assault of Men and Boys - Coordinate_Apotheosis - 12-13-2017
Equality is so very important to me... You may not think I know your pain because I'm a guy, but...I think I know your pain if even just a little.
With, that little, little bit of understanding, I just want to say, I pray for an end to these pains and the pained behaviors manifesting that pain. That those suffering from these things find forgiveness and heal.
I'm sorry if my remark about refraining from posting was out of line. I just think with such a powerfully charged subject, we should err on the side of caution, and when others reveal their pain, we should support them. Instead of argue.
I am a part of that problem and I am going to try to be more conscientious of my involvement and what I put into these discussions.
RE: Why Aren't Men Fighting Back? - The Sexual Assault of Men and Boys - Jade - 12-13-2017
I am sorry you feel unwelcome, Joseph. I do not reject you, or your attempts at empathy. But is it possible for you to understand the unwelcoming attitude that a self-proclaimed misogynist creates for other women who post here? Or how welcoming this OP was towards women who post here, or any woman who has been abused for that matter? I am trying my sincerest to not create double standards, but when you tell me that I shouldn't engage in a topic of conversation because it makes you feel unwelcome - well, I feel like we could go in circles endlessly with that one. How about we continue to try our best to share with each other in open honesty, and not turn our offense at each other's words into offense with each other? I don't blame you for your misunderstandings about society in general, we have all been brainwashed to different degrees, but when they are pointed out to you, you tend to just recoil and say that you don't know and it's not worth the energy to discern.
Quote:No show is devoid of those stereotypes completely I think, so to argue media influence one way or another is beside the point to me because unless we go censor every show with something bad to portray, what's the use beyond admitting that some shows portray things certain ways for whatever reason? To avoid them? To be aware?
You were actually the first one to set the standard to use TV shows as an example for how society portrays gender imbalance. And there is a very clear imbalance. Fictional media is very influenced to portraying genders in a specific way, with one gender being dominant and the other merely playing foil. The point, yes, is to be aware, and ideally, avoid. The things we get pleasure from are what we tend to recreate in our reality. It seems to me that you are unaware to how imbalanced females are portrayed in media. The Ferengi is one OBVIOUS example, yet still you find a way to defend their menial advances towards female equality. There is absolutely nothing like the Ferengi in popular culture that portrays the opposite extreme of a toxic matriarchy - because frankly, I don't know if any of us know what that would look like. There is the TNG episode where they meet the planet where women are rulers, but it's actually very shallow because it's merely a mirror of the patriarchy, where women are the physically stronger sex and men are physically smaller and emotional - which again continues to perpetuate gender stereotypes which hurt our culture at large.
RE: Why Aren't Men Fighting Back? - The Sexual Assault of Men and Boys - YinYang - 12-13-2017
C_A Wrote:Then I politely suggest you refrain from posting here, or on any thread about sexism as you've already said quite enough to make me feel unwelcome. As have others on this forum, from both sides of the creator's genders. And I suggest anyone whom wants to prove their point over moving towards reconciliation of these pains that they should consider refraining too.
C_A, this is an incredibly narcissistic post of yours, you are making it all about YOU - again - constantly. I'm sorry for being so frank, but you are directly countering what I'm advocating and encouraging - talk, talk, talk, talk, everyone, until your view is heard, acknowledged, and validated. I have seen this work in my own life when we thought we were on the brink of a civil war, when we thought all hope was lost.
Listen. Listen. Listen. Listen to the stories. Just keep listening. We've only just begun...
RE: Why Aren't Men Fighting Back? - The Sexual Assault of Men and Boys - Minyatur - 12-13-2017
I have to admit I find the replies to this thread less balanced than the OP and I fully disagree with Jade that it really holds (direct) potential to make women uncomfortable (obviously any subject can act as a trigger, just seeing a color could make someone uncomfortable), actually I think the reponse the thread had somewhat validated it more than not. Since the 8th at least, if it wasn't in the OP, it offers a disclaimer that it isn't in any way against women rights, which was later repeated, and I think that's a good intent because it shouldn't even need to be there yet was which shows minding others who may take it the wrong way in their distortions.
What Dante said is pretty much that "There are instanses of abuse from women to men and the medias create a climate where this has no value to be brought to light, while if a man is falsely accused of sexual abuse they can see their life pretty much ruined as a given default without any form of proof because of this social climate, and there are instances of this (obviously)"
The response it got pretty much goes into "it isn't right to put a focus upon the injustices toward men publicly, like here, because women had it much worse across time on earth and so it will make a women uncomfortable that a speech about injustice isn't about acomodating them, however that it also does not seek to take a single thing from them."
Seems like there's a bit of unfairness here, it's all about give and take. You can see it as not a big problem but a single instance of this happening should give it right to be discussed and not denied. If I missed where this takes something from women, then I'd like to be pointed to it.
Now my own take on things, I don't agree with Dante that it is very important but acknowledge we all got things we each hold dear and not and it's always been very apparent on this forum on any heated up subject. Your triggers are what you are balancing and once you start talking about the world's imbalances you are pretty much projecting your own imbalances as a mean to balance them.
Still, anyone that speaks of balancing while talking about balancing in a single direction doesn't really understand the mecanisms of balancing. To balance the masculine and femimine, they need to heal in both men and women as it is their relationship that is hurt.
As a side thought, since the earth is always reffered to as unbalanced toward the male energy, I do wonder what's the balance of this in the comos? Is it the balance to a cosmic imbalance toward the female energy in this portion of the cosmos? The idea that each and every planet need the exact same balance seems like it'd just disallow diversity of being and experience for the exploration of both poles of this energy.
RE: Why Aren't Men Fighting Back? - The Sexual Assault of Men and Boys - Dante776 - 12-13-2017
(12-11-2017, 06:42 PM)Coordinate_Apotheosis Wrote: Dante speaks of exceptions, I am like the thinktank of exceptions. I even have a saying, there's an exception for everything, otherwise it wouldn't be infinite.
I know of women through friends who have made unfair advance in career due to sexual involvement with management, its extremely taboo and I only know from drunken admittance, I also know of women who lost jobs from similar things. To accuse all women of this is ridiculous, Dante.
I agree wholeheartedly C_A and would never accuse ALL of any group of anything.
Coordinate_Apotheosis Wrote:When I read that all women are manipulators, abusers, nigh subtle oppressors, I feel the EXACT same way when I read that men are sexist oppressors. I disagree and am hurt by such broad accusations of our brothers and sisters. People can be manipulative, people can be abusive, people can be sexist, and anyone can oppress anyone.
AGREED! The operative word is "people," of either gender.
RE: Why Aren't Men Fighting Back? - The Sexual Assault of Men and Boys - Jade - 12-13-2017
Quote:I fully disagree with Jade that it really holds potential to make women uncomfortable,
![[Image: e1ab59e11a7ed26241996c818dfa392b.jpg]](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e1/ab/59/e1ab59e11a7ed26241996c818dfa392b.jpg)
I'm sorry, but what do you think even gives you the right to say that?
ETA: Oh, you edited your post. So I should feel as benign when I see a rally for men to "fight back" against women speaking up against abuse as I do when I experience the color blue, I see. Thank you for offering your balance to the discussion.
RE: Why Aren't Men Fighting Back? - The Sexual Assault of Men and Boys - Minyatur - 12-13-2017
(12-13-2017, 03:28 PM)Bring4th_Jade Wrote:Quote:I fully disagree with Jade that it really holds potential to make women uncomfortable,
I'm sorry, but what do you think even gives you the right to say that?
ETA: Oh, you edited your post. So I should feel as benign when I see a rally for men to "fight back" as I do when I experience the color blue, I see. Thank you for offerings your balance to the discussion.
I haven't really seen a rally and instead talking about a subject where men are denied to speak up while there's a greater and greater climate to give blind support to women. It seems like balance here would be an equal ability to speak of both, which is not what I've seen in this thread. If you blocked on the first three words of the title to judge the content of the thread, then it makes sense it went into a fighting climate when it wasn't so much about fighting but how fighting back is denied for men when it would be rightful for them if they were women in the exact same circumstance. If I had to give my impression, I think that if soul A was in life #1 an abused woman you'd give full support to fight back, but if soul A in life #2 was an abused man you'd invalidate the desire to fight back on the same scenario.
Maybe it's because I feel impartial about the subject but it seems obvious to me the reaction it got would be different using all the same thematics and interchanging the genders.
Anyway, my point is more that if we start denying the right to speak about an imbalance because there are other imbalances also, then there isn't much left to talk about.
RE: Why Aren't Men Fighting Back? - The Sexual Assault of Men and Boys - Aion - 12-13-2017
Personally I don't really see the 'balance' in the OP. It wasn't about "people", it was about men being sexually harassed and seemed intentionally polarized that way. Why not just talk about sexual assault as a phenomenon in general as opposed to focusing on one or the other gender? "Why aren't men fighting back?" is a highly polarized question.
I noticed that the quote taken from the news article only highlighted the male numbers, but ignored the full quote - "Even though women filing charges makes up the bulk of the EEOC’s sexual harassment workload, men are becoming a bigger piece of the pie, with nearly 2000 filing charges last year." The full quote still stated that the BULK of the filings still come from women. So either way, the skew of the perspective is all going to depend on the source.
There is also this important note from the same article - "I would be remiss if I didn’t address another big issue — bogus sexual harassment claims. Yes, men can make those too." (These are from the NBC article.)
So, maybe we can rearrange the idea here towards one of reconciliation and working together. I would propose questions such as this:
How can men and women work together to increase respect and decrease harassment for both?
How can men and women who have been harassed be supported?
How can we address the pain of victims without invalidating their experience?
How can we develop more peace between masculine and feminine?
How can women help other women be safe and secure?
How can men help other men be safe and secure?
How can we reduce the stigmatization of sexual assault claims in general?
How can we on an individual level work to dissuade sexual harassment?
I think it's somewhat strange how you guys are saying men are denied fighting back, while also bringing up the point that sexual harassment claims have increased from men? Isn't that what 'fighting back' looks like?
I am also very curious who all of these men are who have been 'tried by the media' and fired and their families ruined. I've read of only a couple cases where that has happened, certainly not the throes of men the OP seems to be suggesting.
RE: Why Aren't Men Fighting Back? - The Sexual Assault of Men and Boys - Minyatur - 12-13-2017
(12-13-2017, 03:59 PM)Aion Wrote: Personally I don't really see the 'balance' in the OP. It wasn't about "people", it was about men being sexually harassed and seemed intentionally polarized that way. Why not just talk about sexual assault as a phenomenon in general as opposed to focusing on one or the other gender? "Why aren't men fighting back?" is a highly polarized question.
Well since I'm the one who said it was more balanced, I just want to point out this was my judgment of the thread. My further point toward the responses was that they seem even more biased than the OP.
Funnily enough the thread seems to adress the uprising of feminine energy in men, to be allowed to stand straight as also vulnerable beings. (like I said it is required in both to actually rise)
RE: Why Aren't Men Fighting Back? - The Sexual Assault of Men and Boys - Aion - 12-13-2017
I think the thread started off with finger pointing so I think it's pretty expected that you would see the same reflected in the thread.
RE: Why Aren't Men Fighting Back? - The Sexual Assault of Men and Boys - Minyatur - 12-13-2017
(12-13-2017, 04:19 PM)Aion Wrote: I think the thread started off with finger pointing so I think it's pretty expected that you would see the same reflected in the thread.
Wasn't the finger pointing toward the medias and not women though?
RE: Why Aren't Men Fighting Back? - The Sexual Assault of Men and Boys - Coordinate_Apotheosis - 12-13-2017
Well, okay then. When everyone is ready to start talking about fixing these issues, I'll be around.
I bid you all good luck in this...
RE: Why Aren't Men Fighting Back? - The Sexual Assault of Men and Boys - Aion - 12-13-2017
(12-13-2017, 04:21 PM)Elros Wrote:(12-13-2017, 04:19 PM)Aion Wrote: I think the thread started off with finger pointing so I think it's pretty expected that you would see the same reflected in the thread.
Wasn't the finger pointing toward the medias and not women though?
It was at both. "Are some women in the feminist movement just using this issue in their quest for power?"
On that note, where do you think all this information about male sexual assault victims came from? Likely some media source, although maybe not 'mainstream'.
A simple google search reveals many 'reputable' media sources reporting on it:
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/24/sexual-harassment-isnt-just-about-men-says-female-ceo-commentary.html
https://www.unilad.co.uk/featured/opinion-is-sexual-harassment-really-always-a-one-way-street/
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/media-spotlight/201505/when-men-face-sexual-harassment
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/11/16/dont-forget-about-the-men-who-said-theyve-been-sexually-assaulted-too/?utm_term=.f1b35b821cdf
https://psmag.com/news/women-sexually-assault-men-92099
So the claim that it isn't being represented in media seems unfounded and more like some kind of bait for an argument, or maybe I was just lucky with Google and found things the OP didn't. The OP also failed to mention that there are also many cases of men being abused by other men, and even plenty of women being abused by women.
RE: Why Aren't Men Fighting Back? - The Sexual Assault of Men and Boys - Aion - 12-13-2017
(12-13-2017, 04:33 PM)Coordinate_Apotheosis Wrote: Well, okay then. When everyone is ready to start talking about fixing these issues, I'll be around.
I bid you all good luck in this...
What does "fixing these issues" look like to you?
RE: Why Aren't Men Fighting Back? - The Sexual Assault of Men and Boys - Minyatur - 12-13-2017
(12-13-2017, 04:38 PM)Aion Wrote:(12-13-2017, 04:21 PM)Elros Wrote:(12-13-2017, 04:19 PM)Aion Wrote: I think the thread started off with finger pointing so I think it's pretty expected that you would see the same reflected in the thread.
Wasn't the finger pointing toward the medias and not women though?
It was at both. "Are some women in the feminist movement just using this issue in their quest for power?"
On that note, where do you think all this information about male sexual assault victims came from? Likely some media source, although maybe not 'mainstream'.
A simple google search reveals many 'reputable' media sources reporting on it:
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/24/sexual-harassment-isnt-just-about-men-says-female-ceo-commentary.html
https://www.unilad.co.uk/featured/opinion-is-sexual-harassment-really-always-a-one-way-street/
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/media-spotlight/201505/when-men-face-sexual-harassment
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/11/16/dont-forget-about-the-men-who-said-theyve-been-sexually-assaulted-too/?utm_term=.f1b35b821cdf
https://psmag.com/news/women-sexually-assault-men-92099
So the claim that it isn't being represented in media seems unfounded and more like some kind of bait for an argument, or maybe I was just lucky with Google and found things the OP didn't.
I did think that line could be seen as that but the "some" did seem to balance it out saying it could be true for some. It's a question right? And due to the diversity of human nature it is probably definitely true too. But then, is there a point to adress anything with a focus on its less balanced aspects or elements? Maybe to lower an influence from ruining something useful?
Good point made about the medias, maybe the point was hyperbolized.
RE: Why Aren't Men Fighting Back? - The Sexual Assault of Men and Boys - Aion - 12-13-2017
(12-13-2017, 04:48 PM)Elros Wrote:(12-13-2017, 04:38 PM)Aion Wrote:(12-13-2017, 04:21 PM)Elros Wrote:(12-13-2017, 04:19 PM)Aion Wrote: I think the thread started off with finger pointing so I think it's pretty expected that you would see the same reflected in the thread.
Wasn't the finger pointing toward the medias and not women though?
It was at both. "Are some women in the feminist movement just using this issue in their quest for power?"
On that note, where do you think all this information about male sexual assault victims came from? Likely some media source, although maybe not 'mainstream'.
A simple google search reveals many 'reputable' media sources reporting on it:
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/24/sexual-harassment-isnt-just-about-men-says-female-ceo-commentary.html
https://www.unilad.co.uk/featured/opinion-is-sexual-harassment-really-always-a-one-way-street/
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/media-spotlight/201505/when-men-face-sexual-harassment
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/11/16/dont-forget-about-the-men-who-said-theyve-been-sexually-assaulted-too/?utm_term=.f1b35b821cdf
https://psmag.com/news/women-sexually-assault-men-92099
So the claim that it isn't being represented in media seems unfounded and more like some kind of bait for an argument, or maybe I was just lucky with Google and found things the OP didn't.
I did think that line could be seen as that but the "some" did seem to balance it out saying it could be true for some. It's a question right? And due to the diversity of human nature it is probably definitely true too. But then, is there a point to adress anything with a focus on its less balanced aspects or elements? Maybe to lower an influence from ruining something useful?
Good point made about the medias, maybe the point was hyperbolized.
Your questions are the same as mine. What exactly WAS the intended goal in making the post? Is the OP looking for sympathy for men? Looking to 'rally men' together? Looking to 'fight back' against women or against the mainstream media? Are we supposed to do that?
All I can see is a reason to argue with eachother.
RE: Why Aren't Men Fighting Back? - The Sexual Assault of Men and Boys - YinYang - 12-13-2017
(12-13-2017, 04:33 PM)Coordinate_Apotheosis Wrote: Well, okay then. When everyone is ready to start talking about fixing these issues, I'll be around.
I bid you all good luck in this...
Oh please, please C_A, we can't endure the oppression any longer, please tell us how to fix these issues?
RE: Why Aren't Men Fighting Back? - The Sexual Assault of Men and Boys - Coordinate_Apotheosis - 12-13-2017
(12-13-2017, 04:39 PM)Aion Wrote:(12-13-2017, 04:33 PM)Coordinate_Apotheosis Wrote: Well, okay then. When everyone is ready to start talking about fixing these issues, I'll be around.
I bid you all good luck in this...
What does "fixing these issues" look like to you?
Pointing out the unity in the situation, looking for the lessons involved to embrace them, to learn better love and forgiveness for those that hurt others to help those hurt to heal.
YinYang, I accept the karma being presented. Thank you for your honesty and sarcasm simultaneously.
I think a good start would be for you to forgive me and accept me, as I am trying to do for you... I don't want to call people names anynore. I don't want to argue with you.
I'm hurt by sexism, as is other's, but we have a unique opportunity in leiu of the philosophy of the Law of One, to make exceptional headway into these areas of catalyst and the lessons present. If we can find the lessons, find forgiveness and love from those lessons, they become unneeded.
They fall away for us, and that is a start to ending the processes that manifest sexism to begin with.
You'll note, I do not disagree that women were the more abused, I simply don't want to make a special fixation on that abuse in fear of it counteracting and perpetuating the presence of that catalyst. It is good to feel hurt in spiritual terms, but my heart hurts for those in 3D whom perform the conflicts. That hurt is grist for the mill.
I'm not that great, you all see that... But for being a monster, I still care about others.
Look...At how upset or fierce this topic can make us. Look at how across the threads, the forum, we fight each other. It's destroying us, making us no longer see each other clearly.
Think of my soul, I might have issues with my own soul, but I love yours and everyone's, and the challenge for me is to be calm and see the soul rather than just a human.
I'm sorry for the horrible things I've said, I'm trying to be better now. Your actions are the fuel for this drive. I see you are so adamant with these feelings and this area. I will try not to step on your feelings or invalidate you, I'll try very hard to accept you rather than judge. I don't want you to be upset or anyone and I have not managed that very well at all. I admit it, I'm more disruptive than helpful...
You call me a narcissist now, among other things.
I will continue on as I have... Trying to be better. Thank you for your honesty, you should know I take such remarks deeply as the opinions here hold great sway with me as you've all taught me wonders one way or another and made my life more fulfilling one way or another.
Your remarks on Van Gogh especially still shine in my mind, and I am grateful of that even now as your mood towards me is vastly different than I've seen before.
I do not believe sexism or racism will end before my life does, I however am adamant that it can be dealt a powerful attack, by Love, before my time here ends, and that we can begin or even help pave the way towards an end ro these things by setting an example.
I think of Jesus when thinking of setting an example. Hopefully no one here has to die to set a powerful example on how to make a better future, lacking the depth of discrimination so present still today... I want a future for my son...That sees the end of radical discriminations against sex, color, culture, against humans.
No one needs to help... It's just so much harder aiming for that without a lot of help.
RE: Why Aren't Men Fighting Back? - The Sexual Assault of Men and Boys - Dante776 - 12-13-2017
(12-13-2017, 03:59 PM)Aion Wrote: Personally I don't really see the 'balance' in the OP. It wasn't about "people", it was about men being sexually harassed and seemed intentionally polarized that way. Why not just talk about sexual assault as a phenomenon in general as opposed to focusing on one or the other gender? "Why aren't men fighting back?" is a highly polarized question.
Elros Wrote:[...] If you blocked on the first three words of the title to judge the content of the thread, then it makes sense it went into a fighting climate when it wasn't so much about fighting but how fighting back is denied for men when it would be rightful for them if they were women in the exact same circumstance. If I had to give my impression, I think that if soul A was in life #1 an abused woman you'd give full support to fight back, but if soul A in life #2 was an abused man you'd invalidate the desire to fight back on the same scenario.
Aion Wrote:I think it's somewhat strange how you guys are saying men are denied fighting back, while also bringing up the point that sexual harassment claims have increased from men? Isn't that what 'fighting back' looks like?
Like the NBCNews article stated, "Many labor experts say men are less likely than women to speak up about such cases of harassment for fear of being mocked by coworkers, and even fewer would take the charges to a government agency and risk widespread knowledge of their plight." The first ever court case involving sexual harassment of a man in the workplace was in 1995. That's not that long ago.
Moreover, men aren't making it a public spectacle as women have been doing. They are not making the front pages of newspapers and magazines. They are not being featured on major television networks, i.e. talk shows, radio, social media, protests, etc., and used as sexual misconduct scandals in the political arena to oust fellow politicians. And when I say "fight," I don't mean in any skullduggerous manner. I simply mean putting up a more rigorous public defense for some of these people and calling for less firings and terminations until due process has been met out.
As others have been saying, balance [on the part of the media] should be given to both sides or else there's an agenda afoot.
Quote:
I am also very curious who all of these men are who have been 'tried by the media' and fired and their families ruined. I've read of only a couple cases where that has happened, certainly not the throes of men the OP seems to be suggesting.
Here's one article for starters. It lists a timeline of more than 40 sexual misconduct scandals against high-profile men since Weinstein.
From Weinstein to Lauer: A timeline of 2017's sexual harassment scandals
http://www.ajc.com/news/world/from-weinstein-lauer-timeline-2017-sexual-harassment-scandals/qBKJmUSZRJqgOzeB9yN2JK/
RE: Why Aren't Men Fighting Back? - The Sexual Assault of Men and Boys - Aion - 12-13-2017
Well, in my opinion, when it comes to divisive topics I first look for 'endless loops' of reasoning. In otherwords, can this energy be resolved here and now? Will we, through our discourse, determine for certain whether or not there is some conspiracy agenda at play or whether men are being silenced, or that women are unspoken oppressors? Will we determine for certain that sexual allegations are true or false?
No, we won't. We don't come to any conclusions except on a personal level. What we do do is feed a endless thoughtform which becomes a self-bickering monster and that is how a forum head gets an egregore full of chaos.
Take a step back, chill out guys. Stop feeding the war machine. All that's happening is this random energy is being put out and it's being grabbed up by entities who use it for their own ends. Think about what you're putting out on an emotional level. Take some perspective.
A thread is a container of thoughts and energies. Think about what is being fed with each one.
RE: Why Aren't Men Fighting Back? - The Sexual Assault of Men and Boys - Aion - 12-13-2017
(12-13-2017, 06:06 PM)Dante776 Wrote:(12-13-2017, 03:59 PM)Aion Wrote: Personally I don't really see the 'balance' in the OP. It wasn't about "people", it was about men being sexually harassed and seemed intentionally polarized that way. Why not just talk about sexual assault as a phenomenon in general as opposed to focusing on one or the other gender? "Why aren't men fighting back?" is a highly polarized question.
Elros Wrote:[...] If you blocked on the first three words of the title to judge the content of the thread, then it makes sense it went into a fighting climate when it wasn't so much about fighting but how fighting back is denied for men when it would be rightful for them if they were women in the exact same circumstance. If I had to give my impression, I think that if soul A was in life #1 an abused woman you'd give full support to fight back, but if soul A in life #2 was an abused man you'd invalidate the desire to fight back on the same scenario.
Aion Wrote:I think it's somewhat strange how you guys are saying men are denied fighting back, while also bringing up the point that sexual harassment claims have increased from men? Isn't that what 'fighting back' looks like?
Like the NBCNews article stated, "Many labor experts say men are less likely than women to speak up about such cases of harassment for fear of being mocked by coworkers, and even fewer would take the charges to a government agency and risk widespread knowledge of their plight." The first ever court case involving sexual harassment of a man in the workplace was in 1995. That's not that long ago.
Moreover, men aren't making it a public spectacle as women have been doing. They are not making the front pages of newspapers and magazines. They are not being featured on major television networks, i.e. talk shows, radio, social media, protests, etc., and used as sexual misconduct scandals in the political arena to oust fellow politicians. And when I say "fight," I don't mean in any skullduggerous manner. I simply mean putting up a more rigorous public defense for some of these people and calling for less firings and terminations until due process has been met out.
As others have been saying, balance [on the part of the media] should be given to both sides or else there's an agenda afoot.
Quote:
I am also very curious who all of these men are who have been 'tried by the media' and fired and their families ruined. I've read of only a couple cases where that has happened, certainly not the throes of men the OP seems to be suggesting.
Here's one article for starters. It lists a timeline of more than 40 sexual misconduct scandals against high-profile men since Weinstein.
From Weinstein to Lauer: A timeline of 2017's sexual harassment scandals
http://www.ajc.com/news/world/from-weinstein-lauer-timeline-2017-sexual-harassment-scandals/qBKJmUSZRJqgOzeB9yN2JK/
So is it your opinion then that many of these men are innocent?
RE: Why Aren't Men Fighting Back? - The Sexual Assault of Men and Boys - Dante776 - 12-13-2017
(12-13-2017, 04:38 PM)Aion Wrote:(12-13-2017, 04:21 PM)Elros Wrote:(12-13-2017, 04:19 PM)Aion Wrote: I think the thread started off with finger pointing so I think it's pretty expected that you would see the same reflected in the thread.
Wasn't the finger pointing toward the medias and not women though?
It was at both. "Are some women in the feminist movement just using this issue in their quest for power?"
On that note, where do you think all this information about male sexual assault victims came from? Likely some media source, although maybe not 'mainstream'.
A simple google search reveals many 'reputable' media sources reporting on it:
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/24/sexual-harassment-isnt-just-about-men-says-female-ceo-commentary.html
https://www.unilad.co.uk/featured/opinion-is-sexual-harassment-really-always-a-one-way-street/
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/media-spotlight/201505/when-men-face-sexual-harassment
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/11/16/dont-forget-about-the-men-who-said-theyve-been-sexually-assaulted-too/?utm_term=.f1b35b821cdf
https://psmag.com/news/women-sexually-assault-men-92099
So the claim that it isn't being represented in media seems unfounded and more like some kind of bait for an argument, or maybe I was just lucky with Google and found things the OP didn't.
Of course you can find articles on this. I have already referenced articles and videos in my post. But the point is that men aren't the one's making this a contentious hot button issue. They aren't building campaigns around their assault claims. And I'm not suggesting that they do. They can however try to stop this from turning into an inquisition and the outing of people from their jobs or political office based 'only' on allegations.
The 14th Amendment, in declaring that no State "Shall deprive any person of life, liberty or property without due process of law, nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws," undoubtedly intended, not only that there should be no arbitrary deprivation of life or liberty or arbitrary spoliation of property but that equal protection and security should be given to all under like circumstances in the enjoyment of their personal and civil rights.
Quote:The OP also failed to mention that there are also many cases of men being abused by other men, and even plenty of women being abused by women.
This has been mentioned in some of the articles that I posted as references.
RE: Why Aren't Men Fighting Back? - The Sexual Assault of Men and Boys - Dante776 - 12-13-2017
(12-13-2017, 06:09 PM)Aion Wrote:(12-13-2017, 06:06 PM)Dante776 Wrote:(12-13-2017, 03:59 PM)Aion Wrote: Personally I don't really see the 'balance' in the OP. It wasn't about "people", it was about men being sexually harassed and seemed intentionally polarized that way. Why not just talk about sexual assault as a phenomenon in general as opposed to focusing on one or the other gender? "Why aren't men fighting back?" is a highly polarized question.
Elros Wrote:[...] If you blocked on the first three words of the title to judge the content of the thread, then it makes sense it went into a fighting climate when it wasn't so much about fighting but how fighting back is denied for men when it would be rightful for them if they were women in the exact same circumstance. If I had to give my impression, I think that if soul A was in life #1 an abused woman you'd give full support to fight back, but if soul A in life #2 was an abused man you'd invalidate the desire to fight back on the same scenario.
Aion Wrote:I think it's somewhat strange how you guys are saying men are denied fighting back, while also bringing up the point that sexual harassment claims have increased from men? Isn't that what 'fighting back' looks like?
Like the NBCNews article stated, "Many labor experts say men are less likely than women to speak up about such cases of harassment for fear of being mocked by coworkers, and even fewer would take the charges to a government agency and risk widespread knowledge of their plight." The first ever court case involving sexual harassment of a man in the workplace was in 1995. That's not that long ago.
Moreover, men aren't making it a public spectacle as women have been doing. They are not making the front pages of newspapers and magazines. They are not being featured on major television networks, i.e. talk shows, radio, social media, protests, etc., and used as sexual misconduct scandals in the political arena to oust fellow politicians. And when I say "fight," I don't mean in any skullduggerous manner. I simply mean putting up a more rigorous public defense for some of these people and calling for less firings and terminations until due process has been met out.
As others have been saying, balance [on the part of the media] should be given to both sides or else there's an agenda afoot.
Quote:
I am also very curious who all of these men are who have been 'tried by the media' and fired and their families ruined. I've read of only a couple cases where that has happened, certainly not the throes of men the OP seems to be suggesting.
Here's one article for starters. It lists a timeline of more than 40 sexual misconduct scandals against high-profile men since Weinstein.
From Weinstein to Lauer: A timeline of 2017's sexual harassment scandals
http://www.ajc.com/news/world/from-weinstein-lauer-timeline-2017-sexual-harassment-scandals/qBKJmUSZRJqgOzeB9yN2JK/
So is it your opinion then that many of these men are innocent?
In the United States, a person is considered innocent until proven guilty. The 14th amendment to the US Constitution guarantees to every person, aliens included, “equal protection under the law.”
RE: Why Aren't Men Fighting Back? - The Sexual Assault of Men and Boys - Aion - 12-13-2017
(12-13-2017, 06:27 PM)Dante776 Wrote:(12-13-2017, 04:38 PM)Aion Wrote:(12-13-2017, 04:21 PM)Elros Wrote:(12-13-2017, 04:19 PM)Aion Wrote: I think the thread started off with finger pointing so I think it's pretty expected that you would see the same reflected in the thread.
Wasn't the finger pointing toward the medias and not women though?
It was at both. "Are some women in the feminist movement just using this issue in their quest for power?"
On that note, where do you think all this information about male sexual assault victims came from? Likely some media source, although maybe not 'mainstream'.
A simple google search reveals many 'reputable' media sources reporting on it:
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/24/sexual-harassment-isnt-just-about-men-says-female-ceo-commentary.html
https://www.unilad.co.uk/featured/opinion-is-sexual-harassment-really-always-a-one-way-street/
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/media-spotlight/201505/when-men-face-sexual-harassment
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/11/16/dont-forget-about-the-men-who-said-theyve-been-sexually-assaulted-too/?utm_term=.f1b35b821cdf
https://psmag.com/news/women-sexually-assault-men-92099
So the claim that it isn't being represented in media seems unfounded and more like some kind of bait for an argument, or maybe I was just lucky with Google and found things the OP didn't.
Of course you can find articles on this. I have already referenced articles and videos in my post. But the point is that men aren't the one's making this a contentious hot button issue. They aren't building campaigns around their assault claims. And I'm not suggesting that they do. They can however try to stop this from turning into an inquisition and the outing of people from their jobs or political office based 'only' on allegations.
The 14th Amendment, in declaring that no State "Shall deprive any person of life, liberty or property without due process of law, nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws," undoubtedly intended, not only that there should be no arbitrary deprivation of life or liberty or arbitrary spoliation of property but that equal protection and security should be given to all under like circumstances in the enjoyment of their personal and civil rights.
Quote:The OP also failed to mention that there are also many cases of men being abused by other men, and even plenty of women being abused by women.
This has been mentioned in some of the articles that I posted as references.
So you are trying to turn people against the women whom you see as 'putting up a ruckus', then?
I don't live in America, so I cannot comment on its laws. However, only in a small handful of cases, even on that list you posted, has anybody been outright fired. Some have been suspended, others have taken their leave. There is also quite a number of men in that article who both apologize and admit to the possibility of misconduct, so I don't think it's quite as one sided as you make it out to be.
My point being, what's your point? What are you trying to achieve?