(09-03-2020, 01:52 AM)Aion Wrote: How do you know that you suffer? What is the basis for this consideration?

Further, how will you know when that suffering has ceased?

(09-03-2020, 11:33 AM)Diana Wrote: ...I am also aware that I may be speaking out of ignorance of the bigger picture...

(09-03-2020, 11:33 AM)Diana Wrote:

(09-03-2020, 01:52 AM)Aion Wrote: How do you know that you suffer? What is the basis for this consideration?

Further, how will you know when that suffering has ceased?

Personally, when I speak of suffering, I always mean the suffering of others—mostly others that aren't human. I am aware that this perspective is one of separation in a way (individual entities). But there is, in the Ra material, accountability and responsibility. Humans cause suffering—to each other (which I have less of a problem with because of accountability and responsibility) and to all other beings on this planet including the planet.

I can't be so cavalier about the suffering that humans cause. However, I understand there is a bigger picture. But that bigger picture is NOT KNOWN. I am not sure why so many think they actually know, or believe something particular; this is aside with what may resonate.

There is a balance to achieve here in my opinion—not get caught up in the maelstrom but not to ignore it either. Practically speaking, is it wise to have a philosophy that minimizes suffering—especially the suffering one causes to others? 

I find it extremely difficult to articulate my full meaning on this subject. I guess I don't like the attitude that suffering is just okay because it's the Creator's experience or some other cosmic view. The thing is, if anything matters everything does. Maybe nothing matters. 

On any given day I will have a different response to this subject. When I am here, reading posts, I sometimes feel that attitudes are cavalier about the suffering of others. When I am out and about I am in a more accepting mindset (about humanity). But I find it hard to accept the suffering humans cause to other life forms. And it seems to me a crappy plan to include such. 

The basis for suffering is an observation that entities are in pain, emotionally, physically, mentally, and spiritually. When it comes to 2D, spiritual pain (may) be left out. When one sees an old war vet on the street homeless, physically debilitated, is this not suffering (needless suffering from the perspective of human greed and folly)? I can speculate that this choice on the part of the war vet is valid. I still don't have to like the way the veil makes this possible. And, maybe I am a child spiritually who may at some point understand that this is good; but regarding accountability and responsibility, I cannot imagine it being good for any entities but humans, and that if such a plan is in place it ought to bypass the entities who are not benefitting from the veil. I am also aware that I may be speaking out of ignorance of the bigger picture. So if anyone would like to inform me based on what Ra said (please, no Q'uo or other conscious channeling), I am happy to hear it.

Quote:34.6 Questioner: Thank you. Can you give me examples of catalytic action to produce learning under each of the following headings from the last session we had… Can you give me an example of the self unmanifested producing learning catalyst?

Ra: I am Ra. We observed your interest in the catalyst of pain. This experience is most common among your entities. The pain may be of the physical complex. More often it is of the mental and emotional complex. In some few cases the pain is spiritual in complex-nature. This creates a potential for learning. The lessons to be learned vary. Almost always these lessons include patience, tolerance, and the ability for the light touch.

Very often the catalyst for emotional pain, whether it be the death of the physical complex of one other-self which is loved or some other seeming loss, will simply result in the opposite, in a bitterness, an impatience, a souring. This is catalyst which has gone awry. In these cases, then, there will be additional catalyst provided to offer the unmanifested self further opportunities for discovering the self as all-sufficient Creator containing all that there is and full of joy.

Quote:83.21 Questioner: When the veiling process originally took place, then, it seems that the Logos must have had a list, you might say, of those [functions] that would become unconscious and those that would remain consciously controlled. I am assuming that if this occurred there was good reason for these divisions. Am I any way correct on this?

Ra: I am Ra. No.

83.22 Questioner: Would you correct me, please?

Ra: I am Ra. There were many experiments whereby various of the functions or distortions of the body complex were veiled and others not. A large number of these experiments resulted in nonviable body complexes or those only marginally viable. For instance, it is not a survival-oriented mechanism for the nerve receptors to blank out unconsciously any distortions towards pain.

83.23 Questioner: Now before the veil the mind could blank out pain. I assume then, that the function of the pain at that time was to signal the body to assume a different configuration so that the source of the pain would leave, but then the pain could be eliminated mentally. Is that correct, and was there another function for pain prior to the veiling?

Ra: I am Ra. Your assumption is correct. The function of pain at that time was as the warning of the fire alarm to those not smelling the smoke.

83.24 Questioner: Then let’s say that an entity at that time burned its hand due to carelessness. It would immediately remove its hand from the burning object and then, in order to not feel the pain any more, would mentally cut the pain off until healing had taken place. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct.

83.25 Questioner: We would look at this in our present illusion as the elimination of a certain amount of catalyst that would produce an acceleration in our evolution. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. The attitude towards pain varies from mind/body/spirit complex to mind/body/spirit complex. Your verbalization of attitude towards the distortion known as pain is one productive of helpful distortions as regards the process of evolution.

83.26 Questioner: What I was trying to indicate was that the plan of the Logos in veiling the conscious from the unconscious in such a way that the pain could not so easily be controlled would have created a system of catalyst that was not previously usable. Is this generally correct?

Ra: I am Ra. Yes.

Quote:83.27 Questioner: Now, in some cases it seems that this use of catalyst is almost in a runaway condition for some entities; that they are experiencing much more pain than they can make good use of as far as catalytic nature would be concerned. Could you comment on our present condition in the illusion with respect to that particular subject?

Ra: I am Ra. This shall be the last query of this working of a full length. You may see, in some cases, an entity which, either by pre-incarnative choice or by constant reprogramming while in incarnation, has developed an esurient program of catalyst. Such an entity is quite desirous of using the catalyst and has determined to its own satisfaction that what you may call the large board needs to be applied to the forehead in order to obtain the attention of the self. In these cases it may indeed seem a great waste of the catalyst of pain and a distortion towards feeling the tragedy of so much pain may be experienced by the other-self. However, it is well to hope that the other-self is grasping that which it has gone to some trouble to offer itself; that is, the catalyst which it desires to use for the purpose of evolution. May we ask if there are any brief queries at this time?

(09-03-2020, 02:18 PM)Aion Wrote: Hmm, well, may I venture to suggest that you are in fact describing your own suffering here? That is what it seems to me. In the sense that this is what brings you pain to experience.

Pain is an interesting concept. I think that's probably a better place to look for answers in this regard.

(09-03-2020, 02:18 PM)Aion Wrote:

Quote:34.6 Questioner: Thank you. Can you give me examples of catalytic action to produce learning under each of the following headings from the last session we had… Can you give me an example of the self unmanifested producing learning catalyst?

Ra: I am Ra. We observed your interest in the catalyst of pain. This experience is most common among your entities. The pain may be of the physical complex. More often it is of the mental and emotional complex. In some few cases the pain is spiritual in complex-nature. This creates a potential for learning. The lessons to be learned vary. Almost always these lessons include patience, tolerance, and the ability for the light touch.

Very often the catalyst for emotional pain, whether it be the death of the physical complex of one other-self which is loved or some other seeming loss, will simply result in the opposite, in a bitterness, an impatience, a souring. This is catalyst which has gone awry. In these cases, then, there will be additional catalyst provided to offer the unmanifested self further opportunities for discovering the self as all-sufficient Creator containing all that there is and full of joy.

SO here is an interesting thought. Are we, as the apparently mighty spiritual entities we are, not capable of "patience, tolerance, and the ability for the light touch"?
Perhaps it's not really the soul that is learning here, but rather it is the soul that is teaching the world of bodies how to behave.
As above, so below.

(09-03-2020, 02:18 PM)Aion Wrote:

Quote:83.21 Questioner: When the veiling process originally took place, then, it seems that the Logos must have had a list, you might say, of those [functions] that would become unconscious and those that would remain consciously controlled. I am assuming that if this occurred there was good reason for these divisions. Am I any way correct on this?

Ra: I am Ra. No.

83.22 Questioner: Would you correct me, please?

Ra: I am Ra. There were many experiments whereby various of the functions or distortions of the body complex were veiled and others not. A large number of these experiments resulted in nonviable body complexes or those only marginally viable. For instance, it is not a survival-oriented mechanism for the nerve receptors to blank out unconsciously any distortions towards pain.

83.23 Questioner: Now before the veil the mind could blank out pain. I assume then, that the function of the pain at that time was to signal the body to assume a different configuration so that the source of the pain would leave, but then the pain could be eliminated mentally. Is that correct, and was there another function for pain prior to the veiling?

Ra: I am Ra. Your assumption is correct. The function of pain at that time was as the warning of the fire alarm to those not smelling the smoke.

83.24 Questioner: Then let’s say that an entity at that time burned its hand due to carelessness. It would immediately remove its hand from the burning object and then, in order to not feel the pain any more, would mentally cut the pain off until healing had taken place. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct.

83.25 Questioner: We would look at this in our present illusion as the elimination of a certain amount of catalyst that would produce an acceleration in our evolution. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. The attitude towards pain varies from mind/body/spirit complex to mind/body/spirit complex. Your verbalization of attitude towards the distortion known as pain is one productive of helpful distortions as regards the process of evolution.

83.26 Questioner: What I was trying to indicate was that the plan of the Logos in veiling the conscious from the unconscious in such a way that the pain could not so easily be controlled would have created a system of catalyst that was not previously usable. Is this generally correct?

Ra: I am Ra. Yes.

So, there's Ra's take on it.

Of course, that's describing specifically physical pain, but it's interesting to note the "pain is eliminated mentally" so I wonder if there is some connection to the mind's inability to eliminate physical pain and mental/emotional pain.
Like if the body was in constant bliss would the mind and emotions be largely joyous?

As someone who lives in chronic pain, I can tell you that moments of genuine physical pain relief bring consciousness altering relaxation of the mind and emotions, until the pain returns.

It is said that trauma is held in the body, maybe there is some key in there.

Quote:42.5 Questioner: In the illusion that we now experience it is difficult to maintain this response especially if the entity’s attack results in physical pain, but I assume that this response should be maintained even through physical loss of life or extreme pain. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct and further is of a major or principal importance in understanding, shall we say, the principle of balance. Balance is not indifference but rather the observer not blinded by any feelings of separation but rather fully imbued with love.

42.6 Questioner: In the last session you made the statement that “We, that is Ra, spent much time/space in the fifth density balancing the intense compassion gained in fourth density.” Could you expand on this concept with respect to what we were just discussing?

Ra: I am Ra. The fourth density, as we have said, abounds in compassion. This compassion is folly when seen through the eyes of wisdom. It is the salvation of third density but creates a mismatch in the ultimate balance of the entity.
Thus we, as a social memory complex of fourth density, had the tendency towards compassion even to martyrdom in aid of other-selves. When the fifth-density harvest was achieved we found that in this vibratory level flaws could be seen in the efficacy of such unrelieved compassion. We spent much time/space in contemplation of those ways of the Creator which imbue love with wisdom.

42.7 Questioner: I would like to try to make an analogy for this in third density. Many entities here feel great compassion toward relieving the physical problems of third-density other-selves by administering to them in many ways, bringing them food if there is hunger as there is in the African nations now, bringing them medicine if they believe they require administering to them medically, and being selfless in all of these services to a very great extent.

This is creating a polarization or a vibration that is in harmony with green ray or fourth density. However, it is not balanced with the understanding of fifth density that these entities are experiencing catalyst and a more balanced administration to their needs would be to provide them with the learning necessary to reach the state of awareness of fourth density than it would be to administer to their physical needs at this time. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is incorrect. To a mind/body/spirit complex which is starving, the appropriate response is the feeding of the body. You may extrapolate from this.
On the other hand, however, you are correct in your assumption that the green ray response is not as refined as that which has been imbued with wisdom. This wisdom enables the entity to appreciate its contributions to the planetary consciousness by the quality of its being, without regard to activity or behavior which expects results upon visible planes.

42.8 Questioner: Then why do we have the extreme starvation problem in, generally, in the area of Africa at this time? Is this, is there any metaphysical reason for this, or is it purely random occurrence?

Ra: I am Ra. Your previous assumption was correct as to the catalytic action of this starvation and ill health. However, it is within the free will of an entity to respond to this plight of other-selves, and the offering of the needed foodstuffs and substances is an appropriate response within the framework of your learn/teachings at this time which involve the growing sense of love for and service to other-selves.

Quote:77.17 Questioner: Now, would it be possible for this work of our density to be performed if all of the sub-Logoi chose the same polarity in any particular expression or evolution of a Logos? Let us make the assumption that our sun created nothing but, through the first distortion, there was no product except positive polarity. Would work then be done in fourth density and higher as a function only of this positive polarization evolving from our original creation of sub-Logos?

Ra: I am Ra. Elements of this query illustrate the reason I was unable to answer your previous question without knowledge of the Logos involved. To turn to your question, there were Logoi which chose to set the plan for the activation of mind/body/spirit complexes through each true-color body without recourse to the prior application of free will. It is, to our knowledge, only in an absence of free will that the conditions of which you speak obtain. In such a procession of densities you find an extraordinarily long, as you measure time, third density; likewise, fourth density. Then, as the entities begin to see the Creator, there is a very rapid, as you measure time, procession towards the eighth density. This is due to the fact that one who knows not, cares not.

Let us illustrate by observing the relative harmony and unchanging quality of existence in one of your, as you call it, primitive tribes. The entities have the concepts of lawful and taboo, but the law is inexorable and all events occur as predestined. There is no concept of right and wrong, good or bad. It is a culture in monochrome. In this context you may see the one you call Lucifer as the true light-bringer in that the knowledge of good and evil both precipitated the mind/body/spirits of this Logos from the Edenic conditions of constant contentment but also provided the impetus to move, to work and to learn.

Those Logoi whose creations have been set up without free will have not, in the feeling of those Logoi, given the Creator the quality and variety of experience of Itself as have those Logoi which have incorporated free will as paramount. Thusly you find those Logoi moving through the timeless states at what you would see as a later space/time to choose the free will character when elucidating the foundations of each Logos.

(09-04-2020, 07:54 AM)Aion Wrote: ...
Why is it that you prefer not to suffer?
...

(09-04-2020, 03:59 PM)Aion Wrote: I agree with you on the point of abundance, however I would suggest that the issue in this case is still about suffering, because isn't the contrast there that you feel that others are suffering more than you due to the nature of this system?

Quote:"Therefore, we shall briefly iterate that to the balanced entity no situation has an emotional charge but is simply a situation like any other in which the entity may or may not observe an opportunity to be of service. The closer an entity comes to this attitude the closer an entity is to balance."

(09-06-2020, 06:21 AM)David_1 Wrote: ...I don’t think the Creator ever chooses evil...

(09-06-2020, 06:55 PM)Aion Wrote: Yes but it also equally chooses good, so when two opposing choices have been equally made what is the result?

(09-04-2020, 03:48 PM)Patrick Wrote:

(09-04-2020, 07:54 AM)Aion Wrote: ...
Why is it that you prefer not to suffer?
...

Yeah well, the more I think about it and the less I believe my issues are with suffering per se.

What gets to me is our financial system and how nearly everyone believe it's ok like that.  My life is going so well at the moment that the contrast with the greater portion of society, especially during a crisis, is hard for me to accept.  Everyone could have abundance of everything!  We had Star Trek for decades showing people how it could/should be.  But nope they still cannot imagine it.  I believe a great success of the negatives was to associate socialism/communism with dictatorship.  Now people see these two concepts as being inseparable.  Of course, socialism is not the answer to the money system anyway, but still...  The solution is clearly a money-less system.

But we did not come here to fix this world.  We came here to love it.  So I guess I should worry less and love more.

(09-04-2020, 07:49 PM)flofrog Wrote: Quan in the Q’uo thread was citing this from Ra....

Quote:"Therefore, we shall briefly iterate that to the balanced entity no situation has an emotional charge but is simply a situation like any other in which the entity may or may not observe an opportunity to be of service. The closer an entity comes to this attitude the closer an entity is to balance."

(09-07-2020, 12:44 PM)Patrick Wrote:

(09-06-2020, 06:55 PM)Aion Wrote: Yes but it also equally chooses good, so when two opposing choices have been equally made what is the result?

I thought it was said that the part of us choosing evil is much smaller then the part choosing good.  So it's not equal.  But the weird thing about STS is that it removes choices from others.  Not remove the choice of STS or STO, because it actually creates that choice.  But there was still a choice in 3d before the veil.

Quote:19.15 Questioner: Then the newest third-density beings who’ve just made the transition from second are still strongly biased towards self-service. There must be many other mechanisms to create an awareness of the possibility of service to others.
I am wondering, first— two things. I’m wondering about the mechanism and I am wondering when the split takes place where the entity is able to continue on the road towards service to self that will eventually take him to fourth or fifth density.
I would assume that an entity can continue— can start, say, in second density with service totally to self and continue right on through and just stay on what we would call the path of service to self and never ever be pulled over. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is incorrect. The second-density concept of serving self includes the serving of those associated with tribe or pack. This is not seen in second density as separation of self and other-self. All is seen as self since in some forms of second-density entities, if the tribe or pack becomes weakened, so does the entity within the tribe or pack.

The new or initial third-density entity has this innocent, shall we say, bias or distortion towards viewing those in the family, the society, as you would call, perhaps, country, as self. Thus though a distortion not helpful for progress in third density, it is without polarity.

The break becomes apparent when the entity perceives other-selves as other-selves and consciously determines to manipulate other-selves for the benefit of the self. This is the beginning of the road of which you speak.

Quote:19.17 Questioner: Can you tell me what bias creates their momentum toward the chosen path of service to self?

Ra: I am Ra. We can speak only in metaphor. Some love the light. Some love the darkness. It is a matter of the unique and infinitely various Creator choosing and playing among its experiences as a child upon a picnic. Some enjoy the picnic and find the sun beautiful, the food delicious, the games refreshing, and glow with the joy of creation. Some find the night delicious, their picnic being pain, difficulty, sufferings of others, and the examination of the perversities of nature. These enjoy a different picnic.

All these experiences are available. It is free will of each entity which chooses the form of play, the form of pleasure.