(05-26-2015, 01:33 PM)Stranger Wrote:

(05-26-2015, 11:35 AM)Tan.rar Wrote:

(05-26-2015, 10:23 AM)Stranger Wrote:

Quote:When the attacker attacks, I believe in the offer of infringement they are opening themselves to whatever it is that they offer. In otherwords if you were to harm them as a result of self-defense it would not be an infringement on their will because they already invited themselves to engage in harm and so when they receive harm it is actually already within their free will, they have accepted this the moment they decided to harm another.

I understand this differently.  I believe there is a distinction between self-defense and retaliation.  Self-defense is protecting the self by blocking the attack or leaving the interaction.  Retaliation is inflicting harm on the attacker.  Any time we return harm for harm, it damages us (karmically) and provides catalyst to the other party.  It doesn't matter if it's in retaliation or if we're the original instigator.  What others do is their karma, what we do is ours.

The other level of this topic that hasn't yet been mentioned is emotion.  Emotion is the essence of our being, it's how our consciousness experiences and channels the Creator's energy as it flows through us.  At that level, there is a vast difference between unconditional love and indifference.  They are entirely distinct states of being with nothing in common, energetically/emotionally.

This is relevant to self-defense also.  Positive self-defense includes transforming our instinctive negative emotional reactions into love and acceptance for the attacker.  Learning to react to catalyst with love and acceptance is the essence of the positive path, and all kinds of good things happen when we learn to do this.  We have the examples of Jesus, who showed us that it is more beneficial to die than to cause harm to one's attackers, and even Socrates, who said we must "improve our enemies".  Someone else - I don't recall who - said, "If I've turned my enemy into a friend, have I not defeated my enemy?"  All of those express the same idea.  

One of the most useful things I've realized so far is this: there is no external reality.  All reality is internal; it's all about consciousness interacting with consciousness.  The rest is just props - which are simply ideas held in consciousness.  So, what happens or does not happen externally matters only insofar as it affects one's own consciousness and the consciousness of those around oneself, and those effects take place primarily through emotion, which is energy.  And the highest energy in all circumstances, as far as I can tell, is love, the universal healing and integrating force.

Have you ever been in a fist fight? Even blocking an opponent may potentially harm them, it's something you have to accept when you choose to defend yourself. The other option is to martyr yourself. So you only block, what if they break your guard and proceed to harm you because you are only guarding?

I certainly appreciate your reasoning philosophically and ideally, but it doesn't always seem to relate to actual experience.

Let's see some love for the fist hammering your face.

Tan, here also I see intent as important.  Is your intent to limit harm to yourself, or to destroy the attacker?  Those are different energies and states of being, and create a LOT of space to move in between retaliation and martyrdom.

Also, in the course of a fight/argument/conflict negative emotion can often rage, but the trick, I find, is to transform that into love and forgiveness for self and other as early as possible afterwards, once the animal instincts recede.  Ideally before going to sleep, because of my strong suspicion that the day's karma gets consolidated into our personality configuration during sleep.

Funny you should mention the fist in the face.  I've had that exact situation, and not all that long ago.  Some negative entities (not incarnate) were trying to prevent me from taking an important trip, and with the help of some thugs created the catalyst of a fistfight.   I recall distinctly the moment where I could have brought a chair down on my attacker's head, and was certainly tempted, but chose not to because I did not want to harm him.  Afterwards, one of the STS organizers of this event growled, "how did you enjoy that?".  I calmly replied, "It was helpful. I probably needed it on some level."  He almost exploded with frustration.  In a large part because of the way I handled it emotionally/spiritually, I was able to get over the whole thing very quickly to the point where it did not bother me at all.

(05-26-2015, 01:33 PM)Stranger Wrote: Funny you should mention the fist in the face.  I've had that exact situation, and not all that long ago.  Some negative entities (not incarnate) were trying to prevent me from taking an important trip, and with the help of some thugs created the catalyst of a fistfight.   I recall distinctly the moment where I could have brought a chair down on my attacker's head, and was certainly tempted, but chose not to because I did not want to harm him.  Afterwards, one of the STS organizers of this event growled, "how did you enjoy that?".  I calmly replied, "It was helpful. I probably needed it on some level."  He almost exploded with frustration.  In a large part because of the way I handled it emotionally/spiritually, I was able to get over the whole thing very quickly to the point where it did not bother me at all.

(05-26-2015, 01:41 PM)Tan.rar Wrote:

(05-26-2015, 12:18 PM)Minyatur Wrote:

(05-26-2015, 12:13 PM)Tan.rar Wrote:

(05-26-2015, 12:09 PM)Minyatur Wrote:

(05-26-2015, 12:07 PM)Tan.rar Wrote: Required by who? Infinity? How can infinity require anything?

I am not denying infinite cosmic oneness interconnect ness or whatever, I'm saying, so what?

If infinity didn't require anything, there would be nothing.

Again, totally circular thinking. Infinity would not be infinity if it was lacking.

Reality is circular, evolution of consciousness is circular.

Circular thinkings are purposeful as awareness changes with time.

Yeah, but you have to leave the thought you are on to get back to it.

(05-26-2015, 01:44 PM)Tan.rar Wrote:

(05-26-2015, 01:33 PM)Stranger Wrote:

(05-26-2015, 11:35 AM)Tan.rar Wrote:

(05-26-2015, 10:23 AM)Stranger Wrote:

Quote:When the attacker attacks, I believe in the offer of infringement they are opening themselves to whatever it is that they offer. In otherwords if you were to harm them as a result of self-defense it would not be an infringement on their will because they already invited themselves to engage in harm and so when they receive harm it is actually already within their free will, they have accepted this the moment they decided to harm another.

I understand this differently.  I believe there is a distinction between self-defense and retaliation.  Self-defense is protecting the self by blocking the attack or leaving the interaction.  Retaliation is inflicting harm on the attacker.  Any time we return harm for harm, it damages us (karmically) and provides catalyst to the other party.  It doesn't matter if it's in retaliation or if we're the original instigator.  What others do is their karma, what we do is ours.

The other level of this topic that hasn't yet been mentioned is emotion.  Emotion is the essence of our being, it's how our consciousness experiences and channels the Creator's energy as it flows through us.  At that level, there is a vast difference between unconditional love and indifference.  They are entirely distinct states of being with nothing in common, energetically/emotionally.

This is relevant to self-defense also.  Positive self-defense includes transforming our instinctive negative emotional reactions into love and acceptance for the attacker.  Learning to react to catalyst with love and acceptance is the essence of the positive path, and all kinds of good things happen when we learn to do this.  We have the examples of Jesus, who showed us that it is more beneficial to die than to cause harm to one's attackers, and even Socrates, who said we must "improve our enemies".  Someone else - I don't recall who - said, "If I've turned my enemy into a friend, have I not defeated my enemy?"  All of those express the same idea.  

One of the most useful things I've realized so far is this: there is no external reality.  All reality is internal; it's all about consciousness interacting with consciousness.  The rest is just props - which are simply ideas held in consciousness.  So, what happens or does not happen externally matters only insofar as it affects one's own consciousness and the consciousness of those around oneself, and those effects take place primarily through emotion, which is energy.  And the highest energy in all circumstances, as far as I can tell, is love, the universal healing and integrating force.

Have you ever been in a fist fight? Even blocking an opponent may potentially harm them, it's something you have to accept when you choose to defend yourself. The other option is to martyr yourself. So you only block, what if they break your guard and proceed to harm you because you are only guarding?

I certainly appreciate your reasoning philosophically and ideally, but it doesn't always seem to relate to actual experience.

Let's see some love for the fist hammering your face.

Tan, here also I see intent as important.  Is your intent to limit harm to yourself, or to destroy the attacker?  Those are different energies and states of being, and create a LOT of space to move in between retaliation and martyrdom.

Also, in the course of a fight/argument/conflict negative emotion can often rage, but the trick, I find, is to transform that into love and forgiveness for self and other as early as possible afterwards, once the animal instincts recede.  Ideally before going to sleep, because of my strong suspicion that the day's karma gets consolidated into our personality configuration during sleep.

Funny you should mention the fist in the face.  I've had that exact situation, and not all that long ago.  Some negative entities (not incarnate) were trying to prevent me from taking an important trip, and with the help of some thugs created the catalyst of a fistfight.   I recall distinctly the moment where I could have brought a chair down on my attacker's head, and was certainly tempted, but chose not to because I did not want to harm him.  Afterwards, one of the STS organizers of this event growled, "how did you enjoy that?".  I calmly replied, "It was helpful. I probably needed it on some level."  He almost exploded with frustration.  In a large part because of the way I handled it emotionally/spiritually, I was able to get over the whole thing very quickly to the point where it did not bother me at all.

That is where my point comes up though, even if there isn't intent to harm, harm sometimes happens in the course of events. Even if your intent is to limit harm to yourself and your attacker, the fact is that their intention may still have been to harm you, and so if in the process of attempting to limit harm you harm them it would not be considered an infringement. If you had've brought the chair down, knowing the harm to be in excess of the limit of harm, then you would have gone beyond the law and then been infringing yourself.

Also, where's the place for the people who genuinely enjoy fighting for fun? For example, I know plenty of LARPers who are very in to mock-combat. I think there has to be a line drawn between actual malicious antagonism, violent intent and the use of martial arts (key word arts). Many people who are in to martial arts aren't interested in harming others, but many will gladly exchange blows with another martial artist for enjoyment. I think that violence isn't always so clearly defined as negative.

(05-26-2015, 01:46 PM)Lighthead Wrote:

(05-26-2015, 01:33 PM)Stranger Wrote: Funny you should mention the fist in the face.  I've had that exact situation, and not all that long ago.  Some negative entities (not incarnate) were trying to prevent me from taking an important trip, and with the help of some thugs created the catalyst of a fistfight.   I recall distinctly the moment where I could have brought a chair down on my attacker's head, and was certainly tempted, but chose not to because I did not want to harm him.  Afterwards, one of the STS organizers of this event growled, "how did you enjoy that?".  I calmly replied, "It was helpful. I probably needed it on some level."  He almost exploded with frustration.  In a large part because of the way I handled it emotionally/spiritually, I was able to get over the whole thing very quickly to the point where it did not bother me at all.

How did you hear the "STS organizer" say that? In your head?

(05-26-2015, 01:57 PM)Stranger Wrote:

(05-26-2015, 01:46 PM)Lighthead Wrote:

(05-26-2015, 01:33 PM)Stranger Wrote: Funny you should mention the fist in the face.  I've had that exact situation, and not all that long ago.  Some negative entities (not incarnate) were trying to prevent me from taking an important trip, and with the help of some thugs created the catalyst of a fistfight.   I recall distinctly the moment where I could have brought a chair down on my attacker's head, and was certainly tempted, but chose not to because I did not want to harm him.  Afterwards, one of the STS organizers of this event growled, "how did you enjoy that?".  I calmly replied, "It was helpful. I probably needed it on some level."  He almost exploded with frustration.  In a large part because of the way I handled it emotionally/spiritually, I was able to get over the whole thing very quickly to the point where it did not bother me at all.

How did you hear the "STS organizer" say that? In your head?

Yes, I developed the capacity to channel in this fashion a long time ago. We all share one mind, so we can reach out to any entity in the Universe we are aware of -- with the awareness of their conscious existence serving like a telephone number (i.e., if you don't know the Sun is a conscious being, you won't contact it).  Other entities can do the same and reach out to us.

(05-26-2015, 01:55 PM)Minyatur Wrote: Am I the only one that never got frictions with others? The only person I've ever fought with was one of my close friend because we would get too excited while watching star wars as kids...

I guess there's been people who tried to get at me at different times, but I'm usually always cool headed so it never goes into something big. I've actually been ressented because I remain too much cool headed because it's as if I don't have any principles and blablabla.

(05-26-2015, 02:00 PM)Minyatur Wrote:

(05-26-2015, 01:57 PM)Stranger Wrote:

(05-26-2015, 01:46 PM)Lighthead Wrote:

(05-26-2015, 01:33 PM)Stranger Wrote: Funny you should mention the fist in the face.  I've had that exact situation, and not all that long ago.  Some negative entities (not incarnate) were trying to prevent me from taking an important trip, and with the help of some thugs created the catalyst of a fistfight.   I recall distinctly the moment where I could have brought a chair down on my attacker's head, and was certainly tempted, but chose not to because I did not want to harm him.  Afterwards, one of the STS organizers of this event growled, "how did you enjoy that?".  I calmly replied, "It was helpful. I probably needed it on some level."  He almost exploded with frustration.  In a large part because of the way I handled it emotionally/spiritually, I was able to get over the whole thing very quickly to the point where it did not bother me at all.

How did you hear the "STS organizer" say that? In your head?

Yes, I developed the capacity to channel in this fashion a long time ago. We all share one mind, so we can reach out to any entity in the Universe we are aware of -- with the awareness of their conscious existence serving like a telephone number (i.e., if you don't know the Sun is a conscious being, you won't contact it).  Other entities can do the same and reach out to us.

I tried contacting the sun, it went like this.

Some kind of "hey",

Some kind of "hey",

-- end of transmission --

(05-26-2015, 01:44 PM)Tan.rar Wrote: That is where my point comes up though, even if there isn't intent to harm, harm sometimes happens in the course of events. Even if your intent is to limit harm to yourself and your attacker, the fact is that their intention may still have been to harm you, and so if in the process of attempting to limit harm you harm them it would not be considered an infringement. If you had've brought the chair down, knowing the harm to be in excess of the limit of harm, then you would have gone beyond the law and then been infringing yourself.

Also, where's the place for the people who genuinely enjoy fighting for fun? For example, I know plenty of LARPers who are very in to mock-combat. I think there has to be a line drawn between actual malicious antagonism, violent intent and the use of martial arts (key word arts). Many people who are in to martial arts aren't interested in harming others, but many will gladly exchange blows with another martial artist for enjoyment. I think that violence isn't always so clearly defined as negative.

(05-26-2015, 02:12 PM)Tan.rar Wrote: Test your might! Mortal Kombat!

(05-26-2015, 02:03 PM)Tan.rar Wrote:

(05-26-2015, 01:55 PM)Minyatur Wrote: Am I the only one that never got frictions with others? The only person I've ever fought with was one of my close friend because we would get too excited while watching star wars as kids...

I guess there's been people who tried to get at me at different times, but I'm usually always cool headed so it never goes into something big. I've actually been ressented because I remain too much cool headed because it's as if I don't have any principles and blablabla.

When I was growing up we, myself and my two brothers, would wrestle with our Mom. We're all interested in warriorship and martial arts, so I guess it has always been a part of me growing up. Love watching kung fu movies, especially older ones where the martial arts were more real.

Consider that many martial arts were developed by Buddhists. It's said that even the Buddha carried a sword with him because even he needs to protect himself in the wilds.

The sword represents wisdom. As such, it can be positive or negative, depending on its use.

(05-26-2015, 02:07 PM)Stranger Wrote:

(05-26-2015, 02:00 PM)Minyatur Wrote:

(05-26-2015, 01:57 PM)Stranger Wrote:

(05-26-2015, 01:46 PM)Lighthead Wrote:

(05-26-2015, 01:33 PM)Stranger Wrote: Funny you should mention the fist in the face.  I've had that exact situation, and not all that long ago.  Some negative entities (not incarnate) were trying to prevent me from taking an important trip, and with the help of some thugs created the catalyst of a fistfight.   I recall distinctly the moment where I could have brought a chair down on my attacker's head, and was certainly tempted, but chose not to because I did not want to harm him.  Afterwards, one of the STS organizers of this event growled, "how did you enjoy that?".  I calmly replied, "It was helpful. I probably needed it on some level."  He almost exploded with frustration.  In a large part because of the way I handled it emotionally/spiritually, I was able to get over the whole thing very quickly to the point where it did not bother me at all.

How did you hear the "STS organizer" say that? In your head?

Yes, I developed the capacity to channel in this fashion a long time ago. We all share one mind, so we can reach out to any entity in the Universe we are aware of -- with the awareness of their conscious existence serving like a telephone number (i.e., if you don't know the Sun is a conscious being, you won't contact it).  Other entities can do the same and reach out to us.

I tried contacting the sun, it went like this.

Some kind of "hey",

Some kind of "hey",

-- end of transmission --

It takes practice.  I think practice strengthens whatever neural connections allow this to happen, in a similar fashion to the way piano players' brain areas associated with the fingers become larger and more developed.  It sounds like a good first step.  The sun is a purely loving entity.  He actually healed my hand once, instantaneously, after I'd had pain there for many weeks.  I asked, he agreed, I felt this wonderful warmth and the pain was gone.  It's really nice to live in an STO world, filled with interactions based on sharing love such as these.

(05-26-2015, 09:18 AM)VanAlioSaldo Wrote: I'm just going through a really rough patch with myself.

I can't seem to comprehend how Indifference and Unconditional Love are any different in action when viewed side by side, especially when dealing with indifference.

I see it as.  In indifference you may sometimes act the same way as if you were providing unconditional love.

Someone attacks, with indifference or love as a response, does one not basically allow ones self to be attacked?
But is it still the fault of the attacked for letting the attacker attack?

Or.  My biggest issue is just plain indifference.  I'm having a hard time loving its infinite ways of letting people do whatever they want to me...

(05-27-2015, 06:42 AM)darklight Wrote: Positive or negative, I'm ready to serve in the next density. Everything is better than trapped in the 3th density sinkhole.

(05-27-2015, 06:45 AM)Minyatur Wrote: But then again, 4D is a retrospective of 3D. Is not the sinkhole purposeful material for the next density?

(05-27-2015, 06:10 AM)Tan.rar Wrote: Every life has suffering, if you got a choice, what would you choose for your suffering to be? This is because we are all things, including suffering. However, we can balance suffering with enjoyment whenever we are able. Eventually one sees there is only experience, no good or bad, things occur without recompense to a lord and master. There is however something peculiar in this experience however and that is that you are part of it. You are the experience of yourself.

(05-27-2015, 06:14 AM)Minyatur Wrote: I think the confederation would want itself to remove the 3D entities that suffer from this place. But they had no saying in that these souls resonated with this place to incarnate or willingly in awareness chose to be here. All they can say is that it was not their own wish and they are probably saddened more than anything else.

Negative entities create the disharmony of this place but they too have no power to draw in souls in it. Souls are free to be where they need to be for themselves.

None have the right to break this resonance between souls and their space/time time/space location.

(05-27-2015, 06:41 AM)Minyatur Wrote: If the future you would not want his past to be any other way because of how it shaped him into becoming what he became. Where should the line of free will be drawn?