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+---- Thread: Abrupt vs gradual harvest (/showthread.php?tid=3610)
RE: Abrupt vs gradual harvest - Parsons - 12-03-2012
(12-03-2012, 10:41 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote:(12-03-2012, 08:45 PM)Parsons Wrote: Look... both of you logic-hounds (TN and zm):
I wish I could get everybody together in a big room, and those who accuse me of being overly-logical on one side, and those who accuse me of being overly-intuitive on the other, and let them duke it out!
That paints a very amusing picture.
(12-03-2012, 10:41 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote:Quote:I know you are trying to draw words out of me to "defeat" my point of view.
Is that your intellect, your intuition, or your heart giving you this "knowledge"? Because whichever one it is, it is wrong. Care to take another guess at my inner motives?
That was souly my logic coming up with that one. I too was(and still am) very logically driven, nearly to a fault. I made that assumption based on the logic of "I can smell my own".
(12-03-2012, 10:41 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote:Quote:So we will just have to wait the vast time-span of two and a half weeks to find out what happens and agree to disagree for the moment.
Please- and I do mean this with all sincerity- do come back and join us here if the next 2.5 weeks go by without whatever you are expecting to occur (still not sure what that is) actually happening. I would still be interested in learning more about your perspective at that time.
I was bummed last year when unity100 checked out of the forum right before the 28 October 2011 "harvest" date. All that discussing leading up to it, and nothing to say for himself afterwards. Big missed teach/learning opportunity for all of us...
I will not be leaving the forums, just not replying to any debate on this specific topic.
RE: Abrupt vs gradual harvest - hogey11 - 12-03-2012
To just throw in a little support for Parsons on the semantics issue with 'begins', I think it can denote an abrupt change as well. When I turn on a furnace, I begin to feel heat. There is a dichotomy there of heat vs no heat or on vs off. I don't know if Parsons would disagree with a 'warming up' period in whatever new realm of experience we find ourselves in past the clock strike, but I can appreciate the possibility of the wording supporting a black and white 'change' of sorts... It could be either really.
RE: Abrupt vs gradual harvest - xise - 12-04-2012
I also agree with Parsons that the language of "begins" is equivocal. I don't see it supporting a gradual or abrupt harvest; it seems easily the case that it could be referring to the nature of the 3d to 4d planar manifestation transition period, and it seems to be in the context of a question about the 75000 cycles.
RE: Abrupt vs gradual harvest - Tenet Nosce - 12-04-2012
Perhaps I am misremembering (or misunderstanding) the dialogue.
But, to my knowledge, it was Parsons who made the assertion that the quote in question was conclusive evidence for the abrupt scenario.
I even quoted Parsons above. But I will do it again since apparently people didn't bother to read it.
Parsons Wrote:It says ALL are harvested, regardless of progress, signifying in my mind that that all the entities are harvested at once.. It even explains why. The planet ceases being useful for that density.
My point was that it could just as easily be shown as evidence for the gradual scenario, given the actual full quote which says "begins to cease." Therefore, it was actually my assertion that the quote is equivocal, not Parsons'.
RE: Abrupt vs gradual harvest - Parsons - 12-04-2012
I don't think it necessarily is you being portrayed as the 'attacker' so much as the abrupt viewpoint is under constant assault due to most(seemingly) being of a gradual viewpoint. Since I seem to be the most willing person her to openly display my viewpoint on an abrupt harvest, some may be showing their support.
While gradualism is most definetly the most dominat viewpoint on these forums, I have long wondered what percentage of people here actually believe each viewpoint. I have considered creating a poll but the subject is kind of taboo to a certain degree...
RE: Abrupt vs gradual harvest - Tenet Nosce - 12-04-2012
The larger question here is... why is there an underlying assumption that there is a "versus" scenario going on? Why does everything have to be reduced to "this or that," "us or them," "one or the other," "our team vs. their team"?
This is Life; Not the Superbowl. There are no teams. Get it?
The ironic cosmic joke about all of this is the fact that the transition (whether abrupt, gradual, or in some way both) is all about the abandoning of binary thinking. Something to ponder upon.
For anybody who might actually bother to read my posts on this topic- they would clearly see where I am attempting to establish a both/and resolution to this matter.
RE: Abrupt vs gradual harvest - hogey11 - 12-04-2012
I want to believe in a fully abrupt scenario, but my attachments to the sphere I inhabit at this point in time are growing stronger rather than fading away (another baby due in May). Due to this simple point, I *have* to plan on some sort of continuation of consciousness, regardless of an abrupt event or not. If such a scenario presents itself, I will most likely give my intention towards it and work with it in the most helpful way I can determine. On the back of my wife and kids tho, I have to stay grounded in the world as we sit here.
Right now, the following breakdown is making a lot of sense to me. With that said, I cannot know exactly what each event or special date entails exactly. So, in conclusion, I'm about as confused as everyone else
Quote:The process could very well manifest as the start of the harvest being the 1936 date that Ra spoke of, whereby the 'harvest process' of removing the tares of negativity by the 'angels' begins.
The 12/21/2012 could signify the completion of the removal of the 'tares of negativity' and a turn towards harvesting the 'good wheat' from the earth from that point onward.
The 2036-2636 period could contain the moment of 'full instreaming' where the harvest of the 'good wheat' is completed (full formation of the 4D sphere), leading to the 4D+ earth being at large and in charge and a realization of the bounty of our labours
RE: Abrupt vs gradual harvest - Tenet Nosce - 12-04-2012
Quote:The process could very well manifest as the start of the harvest being the 1936 date that Ra spoke of, whereby the 'harvest process' of removing the tares of negativity by the 'angels' begins. The 12/21/2012 could be the completion of the removal of those tares of negativity and a turn towards harvesting the 'good wheat' from the earth from that point onward. The 2036-2636 period could contain the moment of 'full instreaming' where the harvest of the 'good wheat' is completed (full formation of the 4D sphere), leading to the 4D+ earth being at large and in charge
I call part truth, part BS.
111 Thread Redirect --> The Last Battle
Tenet Nosce Wrote:The "battle between good and evil" is about as real as anything else in this realm. That means it is not very real at all; It is an illusion.
However, it is a valuable teach/learning aid.
All these prophecies about "good" defeating "evil" are false prophecies. The falsity of them is in confusing simple mechanics for ethics and activity.
The mechanics are thus: Negativity can only manifest in the lower vibrations of a density. Thus- when we begin to spiral out of the lower vibrations, those who are wishing to negatively polarize can no longer do so, and must find a new location to continue their chosen path. The environment will no longer support such dross expressions of negativity. Therefore, entities must decide to either abandon these expressions and move to more positive ones, or croak and find somewhere else to be negative.
Simple mechanics.
It has nothing to do with "good" defeating "evil" or the aliens/galactics swooping in and "arresting," "containing" or "removing" the bad guys from our midst. That is all part of the illusion; That is all part of the lesson.
The question is: How long we will persist in using this (somewhat rudimentary) teach/learning aid?
The answer is: As long as it takes for us to realize that there is no such thing as "good" and "evil."
For those who have not completed this lesson, they will not last long in a place that is only of the positive vibrations. It will be too uncomfortable for them, and they will eventually leave to seek out those negative places where they can continue working on the lesson.
Thus, the "battle" never ends. It is never "won" because there is nothing to win. All is the Creator. The only way to leave this battle behind is to seek the wisdom to refrain from battle.
That David Wilcock has been casting these times in the context of an epic "battle between good and evil" where the "good guys" finally "win" is his prerogative.
But to claim that such a view is- in any way- representative of those of Ra is not merely a simple misunderstanding, but a bald-faced lie.
RE: Abrupt vs gradual harvest - hogey11 - 12-04-2012
@Tenet
I think you are getting ahead of yourself.
'Doing battle' is still an integral part of 4D experience and catalyst. The battle does not end until 6D where we all coalesce into the creator regardless of polarity. Until that point, 'fighting the fight' is a perfectly valid set of lessons for any entity. The question is how aware are you of yourself and your opponent.
The problem we have faced in this 3D arena is that our enemy is obscured from us. Our enemy is invited to confuse us and to misrepresent both themselves and their opponents. This changes in 4D in that the intentions become clear, but the fight does not leave. In fact, i'm sure it probably becomes even more intense in many ways.
Quote:That David Wilcock has been casting these times in the context of an epic "battle between good and evil" where the "good guys" finally "win" is his prerogative.
Doesn't this criticism ignore the fact that planetary groups can polarize one way or another tho? If we are indeed to graduate to a 4D+ planet, and that sphere is being created in part by the 3D sphere, then control of that sphere and inhibiting the STS influence is a job that would need to happen at some point. Whether this is done on a conscious, physical, or astral level - who knows for sure?
The fact is that until the 'striking of the clock' happens, the 3D vibrations (confusion) will be available and they will be useful. That's why I feel the onset of the 4D sphere will be aided with a clearing of confusion in some way (a removal, if you will). Once the obstacles are no longer in place, the planet can start to grow into what it is supposed to become.
RE: Abrupt vs gradual harvest - Tenet Nosce - 12-04-2012
Quote:the 'harvest process' of removing the tares of negativity by the 'angels' begins
The 'harvest process' has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING do to with "removing the tares of negativity." Zip. Zero. Zilch. It has everything to do with walking the steps of light.
The question here is whether "life as we know it" will be suddenly interrupted- while in progress- for everybody to walk the steps of light, or whether this will only occur upon death of 3D entities.
This is not a matter of "Tenet's Interpretation versus David's Interpretation." It is a matter of what Ra actually said, or didn't say. Period.
David Wilcock has been blatantly misrepresenting the Ra Material for almost twenty years. Yet, I am cast as the "attacker" for pointing out what they actually said and he is in need of "defense" for his persistent misrepresentation of the Ra Material to millions of people? Hmmm.... interesting twist there....
(12-04-2012, 04:23 PM)hogey11 Wrote: 'Doing battle' is still an integral part of 4D experience and catalyst. The battle does not end until 6D where we all coalesce into the creator regardless of polarity. Until that point, 'fighting the fight' is a perfectly valid set of lessons for any entity. The question is how aware are you of yourself and your opponent.
Yes, it is a perfectly valid set of lessons. But it is not- by one iota- a valid cosmology.
The bottom line is that any student of the Ra Material (whether 3D native or Wander from any higher density) should already know the reality of the situation.
Therefore, what is the purpose in persisting with this false dichotomy? To add confusion? No. I say the proper response is to seek the wisdom to refrain from battle. This wisdom is available to us, right here, right now. We do not need to wait until 5D to accept this wisdom, or to put it into practice.
To the contrary, if we don't put it into practice we will continue to kill each other in perpetual wars. That is because the act of war is entirely predicated upon the distortion of enemy/ally.
Quote:The problem we have faced in this 3D arena is that our enemy is obscured from us. Our enemy is invited to confuse us and to misrepresent both themselves and their opponents.
No. The problem in the 3D arena is that we have been presented with the distortion of having an enemy, and we continue to persist in supporting this illusion despite actually knowing better. Thus, we reinforce the distortion instead of balancing it.
Quote:This changes in 4D in that the intentions become clear, but the fight does not leave. In fact, i'm sure it probably becomes even more intense in many ways.
77.15 Wrote:Questioner: The specific question that I had was that it seems to me that the choice was planned to create intense polarization past third density so that experience would be intense past third density. Is this correct?
Ra: I am Ra. Given that our interpretation of your sound vibration complexes is appropriate, this is incorrect. The intensity of fourth density is that of the refining of the rough-hewn sculpture. This is, indeed, in its own way, quite intense causing the mind/body/spirit complex to move ever inward and onward in its quest for fuller expression. However, in third density the statue is forged in the fire. This is a type of intensity which is not the property of fourth, fifth, sixth, or seventh densities.
Quote:Doesn't this criticism ignore the fact that planetary groups can polarize one way or another tho?
There is no group polarization in 3D. Only individual polarization. That's why it is a mixed environment.
Quote:control of that sphere and inhibiting the STS
Control is the tool of negative polarization. It is not our place to "inhibit" STS. Why would we want to do that? Sounds like negative polarization to me.
Quote:That's why I feel the onset of the 4D sphere will be aided with a clearing of confusion in some way (a removal, if you will). Once the obstacles are no longer in place, the planet can start to grow into what it is supposed to become.
Yes, I agree. But what does any of this have to do with harvest?
RE: Abrupt vs gradual harvest - hogey11 - 12-04-2012
Quote:The 'harvest process' has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING do to with "removing the tares of negativity." Zip. Zero. Zilch. It has everything to do with walking the steps of light.
In terms of individualized portions of consciousness (individual humans), I agree, but on a planetary scale, I don't think you can know that.
Going to Jesus' teachings on harvest is not offensive to me; I resonate with it. I'm not asking you to; i'm only stating what my understanding is. Shutting down my idea (caps or no caps) is not going to affect whether I hold it.
Quote:The question here is whether "life as we know it" will be suddenly interrupted- while in progress- for everybody to walk the steps of light, or whether this will only occur upon death of 3D entities.
My question is whether the negative influences can still hold true while we walk those stairs of light. Looking at the parable of the harvest, it may take the form of the 'tares' being collected first (STS harvestables), followed by the 'good wheat' once they have been removed. If we were to harvest both at once, the harvest would be spoiled with 'bad taste' (negative influences). That's where i'm coming from on this.
Quote:David Wilcock has been blatantly misrepresenting the Ra Material for almost twenty years. Yet, I am cast as the "attacker" for pointing out what they actually said and he is in need of "defense" for his persistent misrepresentation of the Ra Material to millions of people? Hmmm.... interesting twist there....
Would Carla and Jim take David into their house for nearly 2 years if David had negative intentions towards the teachings?
Why are you interpreting me as casting you as an 'attacker' in all of this? Me disagreeing with you and agreeing with David on some aspects of what he espouses is not a slag against you; it has nothing to do with you. It has everything to do with me; they are my distortions to experience. I don't see what you do when you study David's work. I see a different conclusion. I'm not going to try to convince you; you have obviously made your mind up about the man.
Ultimately, Tenet, you are framing yourself as a bit of an authority here, and i'm not sure that's fair. I may disagree with some aspects of David's understanding just as I do yours, but I think we all need to step back and understand all the different facets of 'the harvest'. Often, our arguments are only misunderstandings, as we are all feeling different aspects calling to us as important.
As far as misrepresenting the Law of One, I completely disagree with you. I think if you combed this forum, you'd find that here as well we are espousing ideas and concepts that don't completely align with the Law of One in absolute fashions. Yet, do we run around the forum attacking others for blatantly misrepresenting the material due to misunderstandings based on personal distortions? We all participate in these things. Let's not get too heavy about it. (that's my take)
Quote:We do not need to wait until 5D to accept this wisdom, or to put it into practice.
This wisdom is what we aim to attain in our 4D catalyst and lessons. Again, I think we should keep our eyes on the prize for the here and now; ie: 4D+ vibrations, wisdom or not. You may be a 5D wanderer and therefore the pull of wisdom lies very strong for yourself. That may not be the same set of lessons facing a 3D harvestable tho. We cannot assume they have the wisdom to tell one from the other because they haven't completed those lessons, nor are they set to. Not yet, anyways.
Quote:To the contrary, if we don't put it into practice we will continue to kill each other in perpetual wars. That is because the act of war is entirely predicated upon the distortion of enemy/ally.
Hopefully these things will start to change in our current situation. Even the Israeli/Palestine fight we are watching now has a very different 'tone' than years past. Israel is no longer receiving a free pass, and the world is starting to push back. Things are changing; we cannot say for sure how quick they will.
Quote:No. The problem in the 3D arena is that we have been presented with the distortion of having an enemy, and we continue to persist in supporting this illusion despite actually knowing better. Thus, we reinforce the distortion instead of balancing it.
I disagree. The 'battle' continues into 4th density; there is just less confusion. We will have made our decision and attributed ourselves to one polarity or the other through the harvest process; it is then up to us to continue that journey, which will inevitably lead to contact and conflict with the opposite polarity. This is a good thing; it increases our 4D catalyst.
Quote:48.6 Questioner: Thank you. That clears up that point very well. Can you tell me how positive and negative polarizations in fourth and fifth density are used to cause working in consciousness?
Ra: I am Ra. There is very little work in consciousness in fourth and in fifth densities compared to the work done in third density. The work that is accomplished in positive fourth is that work whereby the positive social memory complex, having, through slow stages, harmoniously integrated itself, goes forth to aid those of less positive orientation which seek their aid. Thus their service is their work and through this dynamic between the societal self and the other-self which is the object of love, greater and greater intensities of understanding or compassion are attained. This intensity continues until the appropriate intensity of the light may be welcomed. This is fourth-density harvest.
Within fourth-density positive there are minor amounts of catalyst of a spiritual and mental complex distortion. This occurs during the process of harmonizing to the extent of forming the social memory complex. This causes some small catalyst and work to occur, but the great work of fourth density lies in the contact betwixt the societal self and less polarized other-self.
In fourth-density negative much work is accomplished during the fighting for position which precedes the period of the social memory complex. There are opportunities to polarize negatively by control of other-selves. During the social memory complex period of fourth-density negative the situation is the same. The work takes place through the societal reaching out to less polarized other-self in order to aid in negative polarization.
In fifth-density positive and negative the concept of work done through a potential difference is not particularly helpful as fifth-density entities are, again, intensifying rather than potentiating.
In positive, the fifth-density complex uses sixth-density teach/learners to study the more illuminated understandings of unity thus becoming more and more wise. Fifth-density positive social memory complexes often will choose to divide their service to others in two ways: first, the beaming of light to creation; second, the sending of groups to be of aid as instruments of light such as those whom you’re familiar with through channels.
In fifth-density negative, service to self has become extremely intense and the self has shrunk or compacted so that the dialogues with the teach/learners are used exclusively in order to intensify wisdom. There are very, very few fifth-density negative Wanderers for they fear the forgetting. There are very, very few fifth-density Orion members for they do not any longer perceive any virtue in other-selves.
The 'game' of polarities continues, but the context changes. We 'invest' in less polarized other-selves as 4D+, just as the 4D- groups do. In this fashion, there is conflict. The confusion element is not as strong as we are no longer fighting over ourselves, but rather, other-selves. This is a huge difference, imo.
Quote:Control is the tool of negative polarization. It is not our place to "inhibit" STS. Why would we want to do that? Sounds like negative polarization to me.
I never said it was 'our place' to inhibit STS. That would be the work of the guardians that oversee the 'harvest' (Jesus called them 'angels')
Quote:Yes, I agree. But what does any of this have to do with harvest?
I have chosen to take Jesus' parable of the harvest more to heart than you have. That is why it matters.
RE: Abrupt vs gradual harvest - Parsons - 12-05-2012
(12-04-2012, 04:26 PM)Tenet Nosce Wrote:Quote:the 'harvest process' of removing the tares of negativity by the 'angels' begins
The 'harvest process' has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING do to with "removing the tares of negativity." Zip. Zero. Zilch. It has everything to do with walking the steps of light.
TN is precisely correct in this regard:
http://www.lawofone.info/results.php?s=25#9 25.10 Ra Wrote:The fourth density is the only density besides your own which, lacking the wisdom to refrain from battle, sees the necessity of the battle. Thus it is necessary that fourth-density social memory complexes be used.
25.11 Ra Wrote:Fifth- and sixth-density entities positive would not take part in this battle. Fifth-density negative would not take part in this battle. Thus, the fourth density of both orientations join in this conflict.
RE: Abrupt vs gradual harvest - Tenet Nosce - 12-05-2012
(12-04-2012, 06:19 PM)hogey11 Wrote: Going to Jesus' teachings on harvest is not offensive to me; I resonate with it. I'm not asking you to; i'm only stating what my understanding is. Shutting down my idea (caps or no caps) is not going to affect whether I hold it.
hogey- The full caps wasn't intended to be shouting over your view. It was just for emphasis. Next time I will use bold.
Jesus' parable of the harvest is not offensive to me. To the contrary- I would be more than happy to explore his ideas. What I was responding to was the fact that these particular ideas have been attributed to the Ra Material, when they are in fact not from the Ra Material.
Neither is the point that Ra is infallible, and therefore anybody who has a different take on something must be wrong. The point is that Ra said what Ra said, and Jesus said what Jesus said.
Is that too much for us to ask of a "New York Times Bestselling Author" is to give correct attribution to ideas presented in their works? Would I be any less "authoritarian" if I were criticizing somebody for misquoting Abraham Lincoln?
What is so offensive about me doing this?
Quote:My question is whether the negative influences can still hold true while we walk those stairs of light.
What do you mean by "hold true"?
Quote:Looking at the parable of the harvest, it may take the form of the 'tares' being collected first (STS harvestables), followed by the 'good wheat' once they have been removed.
Yes, let's look at that parable. It is consistent with the mechanics I offered above. It is also a parable. So I would interpret that to mean that Jesus knew about the mechanics, but spoke of it in parable as he did many other things.
As the lowest vibrations begin to cease, those who resonate with them would naturally cease their incarnations. So the most negative would be the first to die. Since harvest has become available, these will walk the steps of light and be transferred accordingly.
The Guardians of the Octave are responsible for the transfer. But they do not determine where the entity goes- that is self-determined by each entity. It is a natural process, there is no external judgment involved.
Quote:If we were to harvest both at once, the harvest would be spoiled with 'bad taste' (negative influences). That's where i'm coming from on this.
I was under the impression that Ra spoke of mixed harvest as if it were the rule, not the exception. Why do you suppose that it would be "spoiled"? What does that mean to you?
Quote:Would Carla and Jim take David into their house for nearly 2 years if David had negative intentions towards the teachings?
Where did you get the idea that I thought he had negative intentions?
Quote:Tenet, do we run around the forum attacking others for blatantly misrepresenting the material due to misunderstandings based on personal distortions?
We are in a discussion forum. None of us is an authority here.
If one of us were to author a bestselling book on a particular subject, that would be setting ourselves up as an authority. And if one of us did this- we would become responsible for the accuracy of the information we transmit into the group mind.
23.10 Wrote:Our difficulty lay in the honor/responsibility of correcting the distortions of the Law of One which occurred during our attempts to aid these entities. The distortions are seen as responsibilities rather than failures; the few who were inspired to seek, our only reason for the attempt.
Quote:We cannot assume they have the wisdom to tell one from the other because they haven't completed those lessons, nor are they set to. Not yet, anyways.
I'm not talking about "them." I'm talking about us. Those who have read the material. We already know the lesson. Now it has become our responsibility to put it into practice. That is the type of risk one takes upon themselves when coming in contact with this kind of material.
Quote:This is a good thing; it increases our 4D catalyst.
If you see battling as a "good thing" then so be it. There is no judgement of this. Eventually, you will come to see the battle as folly. But you already know that, don't you?
Quote:I never said it was 'our place' to inhibit STS. That would be the work of the guardians that oversee the 'harvest' (Jesus called them 'angels')
What business would those who have gone beyond the octave have "inhibiting" the entities within it? Wouldn't that be going against the free will of the Logos?
Quote:I have chosen to take Jesus' parable of the harvest more to heart than you have. That is why it matters.
Would you now care to re-evaluate that statement?
RE: Abrupt vs gradual harvest - hogey11 - 12-05-2012
I agree in that context. I was speaking of removing the 'negative tares' of 3D STS on a planet slated to move to 4D+ once the 75,000 year cycle is done. I've explained why I think there may be validity to this idea many times. I accept that people will dismiss it, but that will not change my decision to engage with the idea.
Quote:The fourth density is the only density besides your own which, lacking the wisdom to refrain from battle, sees the necessity of the battle. Thus it is necessary that fourth-density social memory complexes be used.
That battle is not to happen here on this planet. It is to happen over other-selves; not ourselves. Is it impossible that the 'striking of the hour' will see a purge of the active negative (STS) presence on the planet? I don't remember Ra saying that the graduating 4D negatives will be fighting over the planet with the positives post-harvest. 4D negatives go their own way; maybe the 'guardians' are simply those who chaffeur them off to their new home.
RE: Abrupt vs gradual harvest - Tenet Nosce - 12-05-2012
http://www.lawofone.info/results.php?s=25#9 25.10 Ra Wrote:The fourth density is the only density besides your own which, lacking the wisdom to refrain from battle, sees the necessity of the battle. Thus it is necessary that fourth-density social memory complexes be used.
Interesting they said fourth-density social memory complexes. Don't those generally form later in 4D? I think there was that example of the Sirian Tree People who formed an SMC in late 3D, but they were given as an exception.
RE: Abrupt vs gradual harvest - Parsons - 12-05-2012
To be clear, I would agree the since in my viewpoint Dec 21st is graduation day, the 4D-'s will have the opportunity to graduate as well. They will no longer be in control of the majority of the population in 3D. And 4D+ won't have to worry about them directly anymore (I don't think anyways, unless its common to do battle with them in early 4D).
But the point is I wouldn't call it a part of harvest in general, but will be a part of our harvest and will certainly be better for everyone involved.
RE: Abrupt vs gradual harvest - Tenet Nosce - 12-05-2012
(12-05-2012, 01:51 AM)hogey11 Wrote: other-selves; not ourselves.
What is the difference between these?
(12-05-2012, 01:57 AM)Parsons Wrote: Dec 21st is graduation day
So no harvest on 22 Dec or any time thereafter?
Quote:But the point is I wouldn't call it a part of harvest in general, but will be a part of our harvest and will certainly be better for everyone involved.
Who is "us"? Humanity? Wanderers?
RE: Abrupt vs gradual harvest - hogey11 - 12-05-2012
Quote:I was under the impression that Ra spoke of mixed harvest as if it were the rule, not the exception. Why do you suppose that it would be "spoiled"? What does that mean to you?
I meant that maybe there is an 'order' to the harvest. You want to pick out the apples with worms in them before you throw them all into a crate that will be shipped to the produce store, or else those worms will continue to eat the fruit and spoil it. In the same way, the development of the 4D positive planet may be inhibited by lingering STS influences inherent to 3D learnings and teachings. I don't reject that this process may be completely natural through incarnational waves and deaths; that's why i'm suggesting the harvest of the 'tares' started back in 1936 and has continued to today. I'm not stuck on some idea of physical intervention; things may also just 'work out' a certain way.
Quote:Where did you get the idea that I thought he had negative intentions?
To myself, blatant misrepresentation of the material denotes an intention to distort or manipulate in a negative way. I will accept that I took it further than you meant it tho.
Quote:If you see battling as a "good thing" then so be it. There is no judgement of this. Eventually, you will come to see the battle as folly. But you already know that, don't you?
You are right, but I only agree with you on a intellectual level. As far as my catalyst and personal lessons, 'the battle' is still of use to me. Without the fight, I become placated and not at all passionate. It is my engine in many ways. If I were to be a wanderer, I have reason to believe I would fit as a native 4D. If this is true, then my need to continue to learn from the battle persists. There is much to learn! I am in no rush to finish only so I can start again
Quote:What business would those who have gone beyond the octave have "inhibiting" the entities within it? Wouldn't that be going against the free will of the Logos?
During the 3D cycle, absolutely yes. Can not and will not happen. However, past the 3D cycle? That's where I think the rules change.
Quote:Would you now care to re-evaluate that statement?
I didn't mean that in a confrontational way and I apologize for it's tone in retrospect.
I think the 'clearing of confusion' could be synonymous with the removal of STS influences past the 'striking of the hour'. The striking of the hour happens when the last of the tares is pulled and the crop is ready for harvest (in this working model
)
RE: Abrupt vs gradual harvest - zenmaster - 12-05-2012
(12-05-2012, 01:51 AM)hogey11 Wrote: Is it impossible that the 'striking of the hour' will see a purge of the active negative (STS) presence on the planet?Very unlikely according to Ra. There will be an increase of "negatively oriented or polarized mind/body/spirit complexes and social complexes" during the first part of the transitional period.
RE: Abrupt vs gradual harvest - hogey11 - 12-05-2012
Quote:What is the difference between these?
In 3D, it is different physical vehicles at different densities. 4D treats things the same up to the point of creating a Social Memory Complex, where suddenly it's less so as there is a 'merging' of many otherselves into yourself at that point. 5D lacks form, so most incarnated entities would be considered other-selves I suppose... 6D is where everything falls apart. No 'otherselves' at all by end of 6D. Maybe I got this wrong?
This is what I was referring to:
Quote:Within fourth-density positive there are minor amounts of catalyst of a spiritual and mental complex distortion. This occurs during the process of harmonizing to the extent of forming the social memory complex. This causes some small catalyst and work to occur, but the great work of fourth density lies in the contact betwixt the societal self and less polarized other-self.
Quote:Very unlikely according to Ra. There will be an increase of "negatively oriented or polarized mind/body/spirit complexes and social complexes" during the first part of the transitional period.
If the harvest process 'started' in 1936, I could see that being very true...
RE: Abrupt vs gradual harvest - zenmaster - 12-05-2012
(12-05-2012, 02:14 AM)hogey11 Wrote: If the harvest process 'started' in 1936, I could see that being very true...I read it differently - that the influx of green-ray started around that time.
RE: Abrupt vs gradual harvest - Tenet Nosce - 12-05-2012
(12-05-2012, 02:12 AM)zenmaster Wrote:(12-05-2012, 01:51 AM)hogey11 Wrote: Is it impossible that the 'striking of the hour' will see a purge of the active negative (STS) presence on the planet?Very unlikely according to Ra. There will be an increase of "negatively oriented or polarized mind/body/spirit complexes and social complexes" during the first part of the transitional period.
Are you still expecting a further increase in these?
RE: Abrupt vs gradual harvest - zenmaster - 12-05-2012
(12-05-2012, 02:25 AM)Tenet Nosce Wrote:Hasn't really started yet, as there is not yet real contrast between 4D and 3D, due to relative lack of 4D influence.(12-05-2012, 02:12 AM)zenmaster Wrote:(12-05-2012, 01:51 AM)hogey11 Wrote: Is it impossible that the 'striking of the hour' will see a purge of the active negative (STS) presence on the planet?Very unlikely according to Ra. There will be an increase of "negatively oriented or polarized mind/body/spirit complexes and social complexes" during the first part of the transitional period.
Are you still expecting a further increase in these?
RE: Abrupt vs gradual harvest - hogey11 - 12-05-2012
I'm not totally sure they don't coincide...
Quote:13.22 Questioner: What is the density level of our planet Earth at this time?
Ra: I am Ra. The sphere upon which you dwell is third density in its beingness of mind/body/spirit complexes. It is now in a space/time continuum, fourth density. This is causing a somewhat difficult harvest.
Quote:14.14 Questioner: Would there be any value to the people of this planet now to complete this machine?
Ra: I am Ra. The harvest is now. There is not at this time any reason to include efforts along these distortions towards longevity, but rather to encourage distortions toward seeking the heart of self, for this which resides clearly in the violet-ray energy field will determine the harvesting of each mind/body/spirit complex.
This is where I think there are two 'harvests'. We have the harvest meaning the 'steps of light', which is what I am implying is the reference here. We also have the 'striking of the hour', which seems to be a space/time event of some sort which would not apply here.
I guess from a dumb logic point of view, I figure that the moment the influx of green energy started was also the moment that the steps of light were available to those entities passing through to time/space. That could be a false assumption tho...
RE: Abrupt vs gradual harvest - GentleReckoning - 12-05-2012
Sounds correct to me. Where else would you get 3d graduates that ALL decided to reincarnate on Earth to assist the harvest? These are those born with 3d/4d bodies. And TN, check out yadda. They are a social memory complex that seemingly graduated outside the harvest. So usually work on the smc starts in fourth, but it is not unheard of for it to begin in third.
RE: Abrupt vs gradual harvest - hogey11 - 12-05-2012
Quote:Are you still expecting a further increase in these?
I think we've already had a lot of them... from the nazis to extremist factions of today; whenever the harvest officially started, I think we've already seen a good number rise and fall.
RE: Abrupt vs gradual harvest - zenmaster - 12-05-2012
(12-05-2012, 02:40 AM)hogey11 Wrote: I'm not totally sure they don't coincide...The transitional period and "harvest" do coincide. However, there are conditions which gradually make it difficult to polarize which are same conditions which allow harvest in time/space. You simply can not have lower-vibrational catalyst and therefore would not incarnate here to progress. These more transparent conditions happen during the transitional period. If there is potential personal catalyst available locally, you would incarnate here to progress.
(12-05-2012, 02:40 AM)hogey11 Wrote: This is where I think there are two 'harvests'. We have the harvest meaning the 'steps of light', which is what I am implying is the reference here. We also have the 'striking of the hour', which seems to be a space/time event of some sort which would not apply here.The "striking of the hour" is in reference to the availability of energies which provide the conditions for harvest. Harvest is "walking the steps of light" - that's how placement is made to the acceptable vibration.
The longevity quote is in reference to polarization opportunity which would be missed due to death/rebirth at time of harvest.
(12-05-2012, 03:03 AM)hogey11 Wrote:Ra said "will be" (an increase), however. Same thing with "the new breed".Quote:Are you still expecting a further increase in these?
I think we've already had a lot of them... from the nazis to extremist factions of today; whenever the harvest officially started, I think we've already seen a good number rise and fall.
RE: Abrupt vs gradual harvest - hogey11 - 12-05-2012
I guess what i'm focusing on is the logical conclusion that at some point, the 'window' on 3D closes and 4D is given the 'straightaway'.
You have to admit the paradox within these two quotes, no?
Quote:[quote]14.14 Questioner: Would there be any value to the people of this planet now to complete this machine?
Ra: I am Ra. The harvest is now. There is not at this time any reason to include efforts along these distortions towards longevity, but rather to encourage distortions toward seeking the heart of self, for this which resides clearly in the violet-ray energy field will determine the harvesting of each mind/body/spirit complex.
Quote:17.29 Questioner: Am I to understand that the harvest is to occur in the year 2011, or will it be spread out?
Ra: I am Ra. This is an approximation. We have stated we have difficulty with your time/space. This is an appropriate probable/possible time/space nexus for harvest. Those who are not in incarnation at this time will be included in the harvest.
Didn't Ra also speak of those who had already been harvested 4D+ and had come back very quickly to help with the transition period? The earliest of 4D harvestables from the planet itself?
Quote:63.15 Questioner: Would the purpose in transitioning to Earth prior to the complete changeover then be for the experience to be gained here before the harvesting process?
Ra: I am Ra. This is correct. These entities are not Wanderers in the sense that this planetary sphere is their fourth-density home planet. However, the experience of this service is earned only by those harvested third-density entities which have demonstrated a great deal of orientation towards service to others. It is a privilege to be allowed this early an incarnation as there is much experiential catalyst in service to other-selves at this harvesting.
63.16 Questioner: There are many children now who have demonstrated the ability to bend metal mentally which is a fourth-density phenomenon. Would most of these children, then, be the type of entity of which we speak?
Ra: I am Ra. This is correct.
RE: Abrupt vs gradual harvest - zenmaster - 12-05-2012
Quote:I guess what i'm focusing on is the logical conclusion that at some point, the 'window' on 3D closes and 4D is given the 'straightaway'.If you consider the short length of 3D, the relevant time of harvest with respect to polarization work is a 3D lifetime. So no paradox. The 'machine' would only extend life, and under certain conditions, not protect life. Do you understand?
You have to admit the paradox within these two quotes, no?
Quote:Didn't Ra also speak of those who had already been harvested 4D+ and had come back very quickly to help with the transition period? The earliest of 4D harvestables from the planet itself?Except harvest due to green-ray vibrations hasn't occured locally yet . Coming back in dual bodies would be inevitable at a certain point. Carla probably wrong about all children being born now are dual activated. Coming back before harvested during early part of transition period may also be an option.
RE: Abrupt vs gradual harvest - Tenet Nosce - 12-05-2012
(12-05-2012, 02:29 AM)zenmaster Wrote: Hasn't really started yet, as there is not yet real contrast between 4D and 3D, due to relative lack of 4D influence.
So to be clear, you feel that the increase of "negatively oriented or polarized mind/body/spirit complexes and social complexes" has not even begun?
And if so... then you believe that the "new awareness (i.e. "sharing", "closeness", "familiarity", etc)" will coincide with an increase in negatively oriented entities?
zenmaster Wrote:I'd imagine that within my lifetime there would be a complete change in society due to the moderately increased awareness available. For example, needs, abilities, and personality would become more transparent (obvious, easy to ascertain or recognize) eventually resulting in much more effective interaction, cooperation and contribution among individuals.
How can there be an increase in negative polarization if these changes you describe are occurring?
(12-05-2012, 02:09 AM)hogey11 Wrote: You are right, but I only agree with you on a intellectual level. As far as my catalyst and personal lessons, 'the battle' is still of use to me. Without the fight, I become placated and not at all passionate. It is my engine in many ways.
OK.
Yet given that- if you were offered a way to continue teach/learning without the backdrop of "the battle" would you accept it?
Also- are you deadset on being either "placated" or "passionate"? Can you envision a more balanced response?