Argh! Part II
07-17-2009, 04:14 PM,
#1
Argh! Part II
I was writing a response to some posts made in the original "Argh!" thread, and realized this could be a really cool discussion all on its own. While the entire original "Argh!" thread is well worth reading, this part of the discussion started in earnest, I think, at post #37 on page four of that thread; my response here is to posts on page five. I'd strongly recommend reading at least those posts (#s 37 through 44) before reading this, just to get the background from which we went off topic....

(Continuing our discussion of the movie, Zeitgeist, and the concept that money is the root of all evil...)
Bring4th_Monica Wrote:I felt less interested in watching his movie. But I probably will anyway one of these days, because of my friend's recommendation.

Yes; I saw the movie because a friend (*frown* no, an acquaintance) of mine insisted. I think it's a great movie for helping people 'think outside the box', but some folks - way too many - take things like this to an extreme. For instance, the person who gave me a copy of "Zeitgeist" became absolutely rabid over the information presented. Every conversation centered on the "facts" presented in the movie, and if others chose to talk about more mundane things (as friends do), this guy would foam at the mouth; You're burying your heads in the sand, blah di blah... Last I heard, he'd packed up his family and moved to the hills. Literally.

Ok, that was an extreme example of 'extreme', but you know what I mean, I think. Before they moved away, this guy and his wife went on a really huge crusade, working to "expose the conspiracies". The endeavor ate them alive and really only served to alienate them from their friends. They made no progress in effecting the changes they'd envisioned.

How does that relate to the topic of this thread? Clam. I'm getting there.
Big Grin

Taha Wrote:What I meant, Plur, is that greed is at the heart of it - the staring point.

I would posit that the starting point is a mixture of various zealotisms, including - yes - greed, but also folks who believed the monetary system was truly better and more progressive than what was currently in practice. I mean, considering the world you described:

Taha Wrote:Imagine having (and this only sounds like la-la land in the present context) just what you and your family need, and being able to ask for whatever else you need from others. When a band comes to town they'd be housed and fed by everyone, and given all that they need to perform. Their performance enriches the lives of others, and giving them what they need to live day-to-day is easy. Gone would be the stupid 'super-star' status, and artists would be valued for what they give to others. If they had no value as an artist then they simply wouldn't be an artist.

...This way of living (and of bartering) existed before the monetary system was developed. In order to return to this way of life, I think we'd have to de-globalize the entire trade system. A small example: I can't reasonably establish a trade of my products for goods from someone who lives even twenty miles from me -- it would involve either travel (in which case, one of us would have to first trade products/services for our means of transportation, and just think about what all that entails) or sub-contracting a delivery service, which would also involve trade with whoever was doing the delivering, who would then have to deal with barter for their own transportation needs (fuel, transport maintenance, etc). Extend that process to trading products with someone in another country....

I think it's possible for humans to reconfigure the way commerce is conducted without going to an all-or-nothing extreme. Here is where greed gets in the way (people who do not want to change the system), yes, but also add in a large heap of learned helplessness (people who want, but do not believe it's possible, to change) and then, even if those two factions were somehow satisfied, many more factions would arise, representing people who believe they know the 'best' way to reform commercial trade. Even those factions whose goals are reasonable and well-intentioned would still have a heap of difficulty coming to a consensus regarding how to effect the change, who will oversee it, to what extent it reaches, how the value of things bartered can be established, etc etc etc. It's a beautiful vision, but making it a reality..? Where do we start? How do we proceed once it's started? Who will make the decisions? How will it be done in fairness, who decides what's fair, and how will unfairness be addressed? Who will enforce that?

*frowning* I think it's a more nebulous topic than "commerce-bad, barter-good", even though I find the basic premise is quite agreeable.

If changes were made and then as you said, Taha, "When a band comes to town they'd be housed and fed by everyone, and given all that they need to perform," would this be the only way we could hear their music? Would we toss our stereos and stop buying recordings of the music we like? If so, would we also do away with radio stations and other venues in which recorded music was made available? Because if we kept that, who would build and maintain the recording studios? The CD factories? The radio stations? Who would organize the distribution - over the air, through the internet, whatever - of the music? How would these folks be compensated for their time, equipment, goods and expertise?

And a last, small thought: When it comes to having one's needs met, who gets to define "needs", and once that definition is established, how do we deal with the peripheral "wants", such as music, gifts, treats, etc?

I'm really not trying to argue anything here. Honest! If we are to consider effecting change (and I think it's a worthwhile consideration), these questions need answers. I'm open to starting a discussion... and it was this point at which I decided to start it in a new thread.

Whaddaya think?
plur
From time to time, I do consider that I might be mad. Like any self-respecting lunatic, however, I am always quick to dismiss any doubts about my sanity.
- Odd Thomas
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07-17-2009, 06:59 PM,
#2
RE: Argh! Part II
As the great drama that is this existence unfolds, not everyone can be satisfied. Zeitgeist awakened some, perhaps tucked some to sleep.
Our society is only a representation of ourselves, The Tower of ego in Tarot which can be destroyed to make a transition to another structure.
Greed is what many wishes. Do you know what is best for them? Can you willingly oppose their wishes?

My friend, if you ever feel the weight of the world, and responsibility for everyone's happiness, know that simply Being in the moment is enough. Enough for you, and for everyone.
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07-17-2009, 07:32 PM,
#3
RE: Argh! Part II
Thank you, ayadew.

I don't believe that 'being in the moment' excludes working toward ... well, working. Period. I'm not going to stop working because it might be in conflict with what someone else thinks I should be doing, and am always open for discussion and negotiation when someone perceives that their needs are being interfered with by my work. Otherwise I'll just "be" and sit here and ... uh... die. Which isn't such a bad thing (death), but I came here for a reason, and it wasn't to sit here and do nothing. When I pass from this physical life, I'm sure I'll have plenty of opportunity to just "be"... and then I'll go do something else for a while.

But isn't part of the reason we have this forum, is so we can share our processes?
plur
From time to time, I do consider that I might be mad. Like any self-respecting lunatic, however, I am always quick to dismiss any doubts about my sanity.
- Odd Thomas
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07-17-2009, 07:49 PM,
#4
RE: Argh! Part II
Taha Wrote:There's also the vast range of differences between what people choose to have in their lives, and choose not to have.

Exactly. I think it would help if more dialogues could be opened so people could state their choices and find ways of getting their needs met. And I agree, approaching these discussions from a spiritual perspective could really help in terms of making progress.
plur
From time to time, I do consider that I might be mad. Like any self-respecting lunatic, however, I am always quick to dismiss any doubts about my sanity.
- Odd Thomas
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07-18-2009, 04:11 AM,
#5
RE: Argh! Part II
(07-17-2009, 07:32 PM)pluralone Wrote:  Thank you, ayadew.

I don't believe that 'being in the moment' excludes working toward ... well, working. Period. I'm not going to stop working because it might be in conflict with what someone else thinks I should be doing, and am always open for discussion and negotiation when someone perceives that their needs are being interfered with by my work. Otherwise I'll just "be" and sit here and ... uh... die. Which isn't such a bad thing (death), but I came here for a reason, and it wasn't to sit here and do nothing. When I pass from this physical life, I'm sure I'll have plenty of opportunity to just "be"... and then I'll go do something else for a while.

But isn't part of the reason we have this forum, is so we can share our processes?
plur

Of course it does not exclude, but I present this possibility to you. Smile It is a paradox, the finality in simply being, yet we came here for a reason - to spread our individual vibration - and that's how the great drama is created.
I respect your decision, and me writing this post is not really a good example of simply "Being" haha Big Grin
I wish to do things also. We have plently of time being dead soon.

We have a current dilemma. The spiritual side of life, which ignores the physical and the 'rules' of this world which we've created our systems of logic and cause and effect around, such as: eating healthy, working together, gardening, etc.

My perfect society would be a harmonious blend of the both, for I feel that people who do not see both the spiritual and physical sides of life tend to be unbalanced (in my eyes, of course) and less harmonious with themselves than they could be.
What do you think of this? Is is possible to create, unless we all further realise that we are One and thus try to blend our individual vibrations together instead of opposing eachother?
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07-18-2009, 07:37 AM,
#6
RE: Argh! Part II
Good thread! I've had a little scan, and well. I could type out quite the essay for it, so I'll save it for when I have some more time, probably tomorrow hehe. Party time tonight ^^
If I give you a pfennig, you will be one pfennig richer and I'll be one pfennig poorer. But if I give you an idea, you will have a new idea, but I shall still have it, too. - Einstein
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07-18-2009, 08:50 AM,
#7
RE: Argh! Part II
In some of the metaphysical things I study, some people are programmed to work and some aren't. That is rather than a nine to five job they are programmed to work in a different way.

This can be calculated astrologically. And I personally know some of the programming 'need to work'. Who definitely have a whole lot of energy. And if they don't use that energy their over- energised frustration is apparent.
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07-18-2009, 05:38 PM,
#8
RE: Argh! Part II
Again I say, my first blog!
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07-18-2009, 08:25 PM,
#9
RE: Argh! Part II
ayadew Wrote:Of course it does not exclude, but I present this possibility to you. Smile It is a paradox, the finality in simply being, yet we came here for a reason - to spread our individual vibration - and that's how the great drama is created.
I respect your decision, and me writing this post is not really a good example of simply "Being" haha Big Grin
I wish to do things also. We have plently of time being dead soon.

We have a current dilemma. The spiritual side of life, which ignores the physical and the 'rules' of this world which we've created our systems of logic and cause and effect around, such as: eating healthy, working together, gardening, etc.

My perfect society would be a harmonious blend of the both, for I feel that people who do not see both the spiritual and physical sides of life tend to be unbalanced (in my eyes, of course) and less harmonious with themselves than they could be.
What do you think of this? Is is possible to create, unless we all further realise that we are One and thus try to blend our individual vibrations together instead of opposing eachother?

A point of clarification, and the miscommunication was mine: When I spoke of working, I was unclear. I should have used another verb or another phrase - I didn't mean "working" as in what one does vocationally; I meant "working" as in living. So to rephrase: I don't believe that 'being in the moment' excludes the process of living... of doing... of changing... etc.

Ayadew, I don't see the paradox or the dilemma in what you wrote (well, I understand what you meant, but it's not how I view things). Even in this physical incarnation, during which time certain struggles have arisen, I have never ceased "being". Even in my most comfortable states of acceptance, of feeling the Oneness, still, in those states I AM. The words "am" and "be" are verbs. Action words.

My life as a human is not separate from my spiritual path, nor is it in conflict with who I AM... even when I - as a human - experience struggles. I am not a spirit entity trapped in a human body; I am what I am, entirely.

I also recognize that even when humans seem to be in conflict - with themselves, with each other - they are acting in harmony. It all balances out. But such awareness does not negate the process of living, the inherent struggles, the human need to communicate, to move through physical life, to be (action word). Hence my belief that it's entirely appropriate to do human things like work toward improving life on this planet, or at least discuss ways in which this might be done, which was my point in starting this thread.

And, Phoenix, I agree - some folks just don't fit into social norms such as working nine to five; some folks are better suited to other alternatives. Which, I think, is another good reason for opening a discussion regarding what might be changed in order to improve things here in life on this planet. I think it's important to honor these differences rather than to label them and try to fix them or force conformity to expectations regarding what is "normal" and "productive".

And, Taha, maybe there's a reason I had shrimp for dinner last night, too..?
plur
From time to time, I do consider that I might be mad. Like any self-respecting lunatic, however, I am always quick to dismiss any doubts about my sanity.
- Odd Thomas
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07-19-2009, 06:59 AM,
#10
RE: Argh! Part II
Haha Taha, that is very off.. Smile Ugh, cannot resist the off-ness!
That which you speak of makes me recall something Ra said, where there are 'wars' going on in 4th and 5th density between STS and STO polarised entities, as they 'cannot help joining in battle' or somesuch. So I think we'll all experience the "pleasure" in firing rockets and rounds at eachother at some point in our life/experience... interesting indeed.
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07-19-2009, 06:22 PM,
#11
RE: Argh! Part II
Ok, first, because I started this thread I am Queen of Argh! Part II and hereby decree that we can talk about anything we bloody well want to.

*sticks out tongue* Satisfied? Good.

Taha, I agree with almost everything you said in your most recent post here. I have some past life awareness, and I have a very clear memory of pushing someone off a very high place (murdered him). To my recollection, it seemed the right thing to do at the time, and I felt a deep satisfaction from having done it. Too, that some folks are more than just satisfied but actually enjoy violence can be seen in the wide world of sports as well as among military personnel (why anyone would flame you over that statement is beyond me). I do not doubt it, nor does it shock me just because I don't think that way. Seems to me it all balances out, even the ugly stuff - just as you said (only more eloquently) in your last paragraph.

I do want to offer a difference of experience in the matter of 'enjoyment' and 'fun', however. While yes, as you said in another thread, some folks do enjoy being sick or, as was mentioned here, being violent - or any other number of such things - not everyone who is sick or violent or whatever truly enjoys it. There is a payoff there somewhere, but that doesn't mean it feels good; it just seems like a lesser pain than what's going on at the time. Or the individual does not yet have the awareness to believe that the situation can change. I think it's unrealistic to put everyone who struggles under the 'fun and enjoyment' umbrella.
plur
From time to time, I do consider that I might be mad. Like any self-respecting lunatic, however, I am always quick to dismiss any doubts about my sanity.
- Odd Thomas
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07-19-2009, 06:44 PM,
#12
RE: Argh! Part II
I agree plur, it's a matter of awareness and expectation. If you're having fun killing people you're at best only dimly aware of the consequences. Sure the other side might enjoy the same things. But what about their loved ones or yours? What about the non participants in the area? These are issues in war but not issues in sports and games. The fact that you can rationalize something doesn't make it right. When there is no alternative this might not make it wrong. But it certainly does not make it right either. Right is a judgment of value, if we call love liberty life and unity right we cannot judge the taking of any of these as right. The alternative however might be more wrong. Which means sometimes a lesser wrong is the only option. However I'd suggest in most of these cases we just need to look harder.
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07-19-2009, 06:51 PM,
#13
RE: Argh! Part II
I'm not sure "we" need to look harder, Ali Q -- it sure would be nice if the Powers That Be would do so, however.
Smile
From time to time, I do consider that I might be mad. Like any self-respecting lunatic, however, I am always quick to dismiss any doubts about my sanity.
- Odd Thomas
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07-20-2009, 04:34 AM,
#14
RE: Argh! Part II
(07-19-2009, 06:51 PM)pluralone Wrote:  I'm not sure "we" need to look harder, Ali Q -- it sure would be nice if the Powers That Be would do so, however.
Smile

Especially them Smile
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07-20-2009, 01:53 PM,
#15
RE: Argh! Part II
Wow, Taha. I think that is one of my favorite posts of yours. No, check that: It is absolutely my favorite. Have to just say Wow again. Beautiful.

My personal take on the 'good and evil' dichotomy, in part, comes from 'conversations' I had with my father after he passed from this life, as well as through awareness of my own spiritual reality. It is by no means applicable to all things which might be described in terms of 'good and evil', but I think it can be applied to many.

That said, the individual who incarnated here and became my biological father in this life, before he came here, committed his human life to providing for others very painful experiences. While he didn't 'enjoy' the thought of doing harm, he knew these experiences would provide the opportunity for learning and growth. In other words, he volunteered to be the 'bad guy' during his human incarnation; it was his purpose in coming here. Ultimately, the experience of being the 'bad guy' was valuable to him (the whole of who he is) as well.

I don't believe that all physical incarnations must necessarily be ones in which struggle and pain are a part, but much of human life on this planet, historically, has provided those experiences, and I personally believe those experiences are an incredibly valuable (even necessary) part of spiritual evolution.

Taking the discussion just a bit farther, I did some spiritual counseling work with one of my students last year. Turns out this particular incarnation, for her, was the first in which she'd lived past infancy -- and she'd incarnated here many, many times. Her purpose in coming, previously to this lifetime, had been to provide the experience of miscarriage, or the loss of an infant, to many successive parents. Too, in this lifetime those past life experiences influence who she is as a human now, bringing both creativity and certain deep struggles in this lifetime. I don't believe everyone incarnates with the same amount of past-life influence, but I do think this serves as a good example of a part of why human life proceeds the way it does.

Oop - gotta run. Sudden change in schedule. Go figure. *large eye roll* I'd really like to go back and re-read this before I post it, but...

*deep breath*
*clicking Post Reply*
From time to time, I do consider that I might be mad. Like any self-respecting lunatic, however, I am always quick to dismiss any doubts about my sanity.
- Odd Thomas
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07-20-2009, 10:20 PM,
#16
RE: Argh! Part II
Becoming trapped: That's how the protagonist's situation was presented in The Nines. I can't really speak to the concept because it doesn't apply to me personally... and I just deleted the rest of that sentence because it was irrelevant. Ha! As Queen of Argh! Part II I can do that, too!

Taha Wrote:I just thought it was me rambling on as I tend to. Interestingly enough, I thought about what I'd posted yesterday about the young relative and the military, and wondered if I should remove it or tone it down.

That's precisely why I enjoyed it so much - you were sharing a bit of your own personal path and experience. So often, discussions of spiritual reality become (and often start out as) completely removed from the human aspect of life, focusing more on where one believes one will be once human life has passed. We're humans now, however; that's what we have in common, sometimes moreso than who and what we are (as individuals) beyond here....

It finally sunk in for me today why I so often feel somewhat alienated from discussions in spirituality-based groups: My own perception of spiritual reality places an equal emphasis on all aspects of life, placing equal value on 'above' (life experienced as spirit) and 'below' (life experienced as physical); one is no more or less valid and of value than the other; in fact, there is no real separation: I am who and what I am at all times, regardless of how I experience my self in any given state. It's all life, it's all be-ing, it's all valuable... and that's my perception, and I do not believe it's the only 'correct' way of viewing things. For me, it is correct but I understand there are those whose paths, in terms of spiritual evolution, are not the same as mine. One whose path is focused more specifically toward ascension, for instance, may not view physical life as equal in value to the ascension/spiritual evolution process of their particular paths. For such ones, perhaps the destination is more valuable than the trip. The difference in perspectives, equally valid as they are, still throw me off sometimes.

Taha Wrote:I also have different vague memories of WWII, and one dream of being incarcerated by Germans in a filthy little prison in France as a spy, along with a woman I know but can't place. She was killed, but I escaped, and whenever I find myself back there in lucid dreams, remembering what's happening/going to happen, I feel such terrible guilt about it.

Question: Whose guilt is it? Are you experiencing the feelings you had during that lifetime, feelings you have toward those memories, or both?
plur
From time to time, I do consider that I might be mad. Like any self-respecting lunatic, however, I am always quick to dismiss any doubts about my sanity.
- Odd Thomas
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07-21-2009, 04:30 AM,
#17
RE: Argh! Part II
pluralone: An important thought. I too have increasingly moved away from pure metaphysical theory and attempt to include it in daily life instead. This has, in many ways, proven much more meaningful although not as intellectually stimulating
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07-21-2009, 02:14 PM,
#18
RE: Argh! Part II
ayadew Wrote:pluralone: An important thought. I too have increasingly moved away from pure metaphysical theory and attempt to include it in daily life instead. This has, in many ways, proven much more meaningful although not as intellectually stimulating

For me, it accomplishes both -- my experiences are more meaningful (because they're direct, as opposed to observation from afar) but I'm still free to intellectually explore these experiences. My preference for the latter, at this point, lies in sharing personal and direct experience of spiritual reality (as opposed to metaphysical theory) with others who are similarly aware and experiencing spiritual reality in their own lives. The intellectual exploration of the words and definitions provided by a third party - religious documents, channeled materials, etc - often serves, imho, more to 'tickle the ears' than to support personal and direct experience.

Taha Wrote:I feel guilt about being able to escape but not save the woman I loved at that time, but those feelings belong 'back there'. I'd say the guilt I feel about it now is more that it's a reminder that I should stand up to control and disempowerment, even though I can't change what others are doing. If that makes sense? It ties in somewhat with something that seems to be a thread running through this life for me; I've always been threatened or attacked by controlling people, both verbally and even physically. It seems to me to be teaching me to let go of fear of violence rather than respond with violence, as I so easily and very capably could.

Yes, that makes sense, and I can't express enough how much I love that you've shared this. I've encountered similar (often extreme) power-and-control type situations myself in this life, and have come to a similar place wherein I am aware of the options regarding my response to them and can choose to respond differently now. Do I always? No. But I'm getting there.
plur
From time to time, I do consider that I might be mad. Like any self-respecting lunatic, however, I am always quick to dismiss any doubts about my sanity.
- Odd Thomas
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07-21-2009, 06:32 PM,
#19
RE: Argh! Part II
Anyone recommend a good recommendation for a past life regression?
I haven't had any dreams or memories that I can recall, but I sure like asian food a lot and I eat it like crazy.

I also really need to start doing some meditation, but I feel my energy has taken into a not so good direction. I have a hard time focusing these days. Last year for example, I read more books than I did my entire life. This year I can't concentrate on anything really other than crap like metal related stuff (although I have been doing a lot of forum trolling and Coast to Coast am listening).

Yeah I decided to do some straying off subject here a bit, Pluralone said it was cool. Add to that I am starting to feel delirious today a bit, so there is another reason, although just now as I am getting off work I remembered what it was I was going to post that actually was on topic.
its going on a post it.

I shall return.
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07-21-2009, 09:42 PM,
#20
RE: Argh! Part II
Hoo. I had absolutely no interest in knowing about my past lives, but the information came to me anyway -- because I needed it. Perhaps if you 'ask' for this for yourself, create an energetic intent that past life information be revealed to you, then it will come to you.

Looking forward to whatever you have jotted on that post-it note!
plur
From time to time, I do consider that I might be mad. Like any self-respecting lunatic, however, I am always quick to dismiss any doubts about my sanity.
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07-22-2009, 06:03 PM, (This post was last modified: 07-22-2009, 06:32 PM by AlexKawajima.)
#21
RE: Argh! Part II
(07-21-2009, 09:42 PM)pluralone Wrote:  Hoo. I had absolutely no interest in knowing about my past lives, but the information came to me anyway -- because I needed it. Perhaps if you 'ask' for this for yourself, create an energetic intent that past life information be revealed to you, then it will come to you.

Looking forward to whatever you have jotted on that post-it note!
plur


Aha, so the post it note oozes through today. Actually it became a mental note, and then disappeared. Luckily it came back this morning after the title of this thread refreshed my memory. What I was going to express yesterday is that I know all to well about the mighty ARRRGGGGHH!!!!!!

This relates to my being a generally positive person, but quite frequently I get very misanthropic with the majority of people.
For the last 10 years I have been a bit elitist you could say, although I really hate that attitude nowadays. I am just me (trying to be me as much as possible) and I don't think I better than anyone, although sometimes I catch myself in that mindset or attitude.

Within the last 5 years I have definetly become a more spiritual person and definetly more of a hippie as opposed to the crazy pissed metalhead guy I once was. I am still that frenzied metalhead dude, but I cannot help but believe that Love is the most pure thing to exist and definetly the most important.

So I find it to be a bit of a struggle. I will still find myself judging other people for say, being overweight, not agreeing with me on certain subjects (errgg it pisses me off, when my friends especially don't really take me seriously, because I am that guy who is into E.T's and UFO's). I also seem to judge based on religion, and other things. I find it hard to love of all people, although I know it is key. Love is all you need as The Beatles once said.

Practicing what is to be preached seems to be a lot harder than it seems. I mean I look at it and say, people can't help who they are either, but still it seem like I just have a real low tolerance and disgust seems to creep in quite frequently. All of you in this forum are honestly really great, but we are all in a forum and don't really know each other personally or visually at least from my perspective.

What are some key ways to becoming a more loving person. I love myself and I know that is good. Perhaps its just normal for stupid people to annoying sometimes, whether you look at it as them not knowing they are being stupid or it just getting on your nerves because it interfered with your life.

Arrrggghh I say. WHY!!!!! Perhaps my old nickname "Berzerker" has some leftovers in my life although I really don't view myself that way anymore. This is sounding more like a rant here at the end. Just now I realized what may be the answer. Seeking answers within oneself can be the key. Perhaps I need more help focusing within.
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07-22-2009, 10:50 PM,
#22
RE: Argh! Part II
I'm glad you remembered!

Ok so here's a struggle for you: I am fat. Assuming (from your comments) that you are not, I think it would be fair to say that in this regard your body is healthier than mine. We both know, intellectually, that weight and health are not reasonable measures of the worth of any individual, that my size does not necessarily give any indications regarding my intellect, my value as a human being, where I am on my spiritual evolutionary path, etc, but knowing this and feeling it are a struggle for you. That's ok. I struggle with things, too, and it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to say which of us struggles more. My struggles are simply different (and more visible).

It's a wonderful thing, what we have in common here: We've both come to perceive that love is the central factor in our lives. (Again, basing this on what you wrote.) If my weight bothers you, well, at least it's not my snoring. I'm told I sound like a chain saw with a broken tooth. Anyway, having struggles with certain aspects of other people is just human. I don't think it's a 'bad' thing, really; it's just part of the experience. I don't like it, I'd prefer that no one judge me on my weight, and I'd love to be completely nonjudgmental myself, but ... so what if they do judge me? And so what that I am somewhat judgmental? I personally have a tough time with people who are demonstrably ignorant. Intellectually, I know they are no worse or better than me, in terms of overall value, but still. It can be a struggle.

As for key ways in becoming a more loving person: My keys may not fit your locks, skinny guy. There are no skeleton keys for unlocking inner knowing. (But I do hope there are some good suggestions made in the responses here.)

Quote:Perhaps its just normal for stupid people to annoying sometimes, whether you look at it as them not knowing they are being stupid or it just getting on your nerves because it interfered with your life.

OR, perhaps there are times when they are well aware that they are being stupid and it's not at all an interference. At that point, for me, I'm annoyed because while I intellectually know I'm no better than they are, I really feel as though I must be. Same as how a well-proportioned individual might view a fat person. One may know better but still struggle with it.

Quote:Seeking answers within oneself can be the key.

Exactly. I agree; this is true for me as well. And I so admire that you stated your need for help! Wow. That, to me, is a really brave, but also generous, thing to have shared. As Queen of Argh! Part II, anyone who makes the obvious zen statements ("just be"; "just do it") will be beheaded.

And I mean that with the utmost of respect. Big Grin
plur
From time to time, I do consider that I might be mad. Like any self-respecting lunatic, however, I am always quick to dismiss any doubts about my sanity.
- Odd Thomas
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07-23-2009, 11:45 AM, (This post was last modified: 07-23-2009, 11:49 AM by AlexKawajima.)
#23
RE: Argh! Part II
(07-22-2009, 10:50 PM)pluralone Wrote:  I'm glad you remembered!

Ok so here's a struggle for you: I am fat. Assuming (from your comments) that you are not, I think it would be fair to say that in this regard your body is healthier than mine. We both know, intellectually, that weight and health are not reasonable measures of the worth of any individual, that my size does not necessarily give any indications regarding my intellect, my value as a human being, where I am on my spiritual evolutionary path, etc, but knowing this and feeling it are a struggle for you. That's ok. I struggle with things, too, and it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to say which of us struggles more. My struggles are simply different (and more visible).

It's a wonderful thing, what we have in common here: We've both come to perceive that love is the central factor in our lives. (Again, basing this on what you wrote.) If my weight bothers you, well, at least it's not my snoring. I'm told I sound like a chain saw with a broken tooth. Anyway, having struggles with certain aspects of other people is just human. I don't think it's a 'bad' thing, really; it's just part of the experience. I don't like it, I'd prefer that no one judge me on my weight, and I'd love to be completely nonjudgmental myself, but ... so what if they do judge me? And so what that I am somewhat judgmental? I personally have a tough time with people who are demonstrably ignorant. Intellectually, I know they are no worse or better than me, in terms of overall value, but still. It can be a struggle.

As for key ways in becoming a more loving person: My keys may not fit your locks, skinny guy. There are no skeleton keys for unlocking inner knowing. (But I do hope there are some good suggestions made in the responses here.)

Quote:Perhaps its just normal for stupid people to annoying sometimes, whether you look at it as them not knowing they are being stupid or it just getting on your nerves because it interfered with your life.

OR, perhaps there are times when they are well aware that they are being stupid and it's not at all an interference. At that point, for me, I'm annoyed because while I intellectually know I'm no better than they are, I really feel as though I must be. Same as how a well-proportioned individual might view a fat person. One may know better but still struggle with it.

Quote:Seeking answers within oneself can be the key.

Exactly. I agree; this is true for me as well. And I so admire that you stated your need for help! Wow. That, to me, is a really brave, but also generous, thing to have shared. As Queen of Argh! Part II, anyone who makes the obvious zen statements ("just be"; "just do it") will be beheaded.

And I mean that with the utmost of respect. Big Grin
plur

Aha, well yeah I have a knack for saying whats on my mind and this has been bugging me, cause I really don't like having bitterness towards people.

I actually have some weight issues (about 30 lbs overweight) which really don't make me any better, and when I think of it I don't really consider myself that way in principle.
Maybe its the R-complex bringing forth the preconceived programming of this disgust in obese people.

In my daily life, I happen to come across people that have these issues and I am referring to the overtly obese. I do understand that this situation for people also is like a downward spiral effect, where they really cannot do much to help themselves because it has brought them to such a low level mentally and physically. Writing about this actually
makes me feel better and it almost excersises that.

Perhaps I just need to look at it from that perspective in that, their situation could be more than they can control,
so that does not warrant them to be on the side of your hate.

To rant about some more things in the name of Argh!, I really hate my damn Metabolism. It really sucks!, but there is a solution for that also, its called exercise and eating better. I absolutely loate smokers(about 95% of the time) as it seems that cigarette smoke goes out of its way to find me. How does one evaluate and curb that hatred exacly? Almost seems like a healthy to despise cigarette smoke. It is also true that the drug has corrupted its inhabitor and that smokers are having their lives controlled by a thing that is skinnier and smaller than the index finger.

I just have all this going on and I just see it being in the way of my spiritual advancement ya know. Thats my morning rant. Hope I didn't offend pluralone, I don't think I did and honestly I want to see people in a more loving way. I feel pretty balanced mostly. I feel inebriated by the wonders of oneness Smile. It is such a great thing.

Obstacles in the road are going to just be there regardless and is that exactly what hatred is?. I do understand that people are people and are who they are despite what they are. Doesn't give them any reason to not be loved or at least be deserving of love in general and not be on the side of hatred.

Anyways good morning everyone. The song "Love Street" by The Doors just shuffled in on my MP3 player. It game me a jolt of awesomeness.
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07-24-2009, 12:16 PM,
#24
RE: Argh! Part II
AlexKawajima Wrote:Maybe its the R-complex bringing forth the preconceived programming of this disgust in obese people.

"R-complex"? What is that? And, as long as we're being candid (and I'm really loving it!!), I'd have to say there's a certain amount of self-disgust going on inside me in relation to my weight. While I don't aspire to physical perfection, these extra pounds have a negative impact on my overall health. Still, self-disgust aside, I'm glad I don't have that response toward other fat folk. I have my own prejudices, though, so I sure understand the struggle.

AlexKawajima Wrote:To rant about some more things in the name of Argh!, I really hate my damn Metabolism. It really sucks!, but there is a solution for that also, its called exercise and eating better. I absolutely loate smokers(about 95% of the time) as it seems that cigarette smoke goes out of its way to find me. How does one evaluate and curb that hatred exacly? Almost seems like a healthy to despise cigarette smoke. It is also true that the drug has corrupted its inhabitor and that smokers are having their lives controlled by a thing that is skinnier and smaller than the index finger.

Yep; that's the simple solution -- 'just exercise more, eat less and better food'. I'll say it again: Simple does not necessarily equal easy. Otherwise, no one would struggle with anything, as most things really can be pared down to such simple statements... not realistically, but they can be. For some, weight is not an issue, it's never a struggle; perhaps they have no issues whatsoever that involve addictive behaviors. Or perhaps they do struggle with such issues but they're not huge struggles. In either case, it can be very difficult for someone who's never had that type or intensity of struggle, to have compassion toward those who do. *pondering* Or, one who does have those struggles may believe that the simple answers (just stop what you're doing) should be easy (or even believe they are easy) and their disgust is based on that belief, the thought that because they (and/or others) are not simply changing those things about themselves, then they must be stupid or lazy or deficient or in some way inferior for not just doing what they need to do.

It's so easy to stand outside a situation and imagine that the solution is a simple matter of going from point A to point B. Step inside the situation, however, and there's a whole lot of stuff obscuring the road between those points, and the one who's actually traveling that road may not have the equipment necessary to move all that stuff out of the way, nor have the wings to rise above it, while someone else might not have so much stuff between their own points A and B but don't have enough gas in their vehicle to traverse the distance. What I'm saying is, whatever the struggle may be, it exists within a larger and more complex set of circumstances than one might perceive when viewing it from the outside. Sort of like looking at a map: Here's point A, here's point B, look it's just a straight shot, not even a long distance... but the map doesn't show that the road has been closed.

Which isn't to say there's no way or reason to get from point A to point B; it's just not always as straightforward an endeavor as some would like to believe.

And no, you haven't offended me, Alex. I hope I didn't give that impression. Part of my point is that while I don't share your specific prejudices, I understand the struggle. I have struggles of my own. As for how your prejudices are hurting your spiritual advancement, I'd posit that the experience of this struggle is in fact part of your process . Spiritual advancement, after all, is another one of those things involving moving from point A to point B (and beyond). The maps all indicate a clear route, but once you're actually on the road you see the trip is not always quite so straightforward.
plur
From time to time, I do consider that I might be mad. Like any self-respecting lunatic, however, I am always quick to dismiss any doubts about my sanity.
- Odd Thomas
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