Absolute moral values? (TED Talk discussion)

[Lavazza]

Hey everyone,

I ran across a very interesting TED talk video that I would love to hear your feedback on. The title is "Science can answer moral questions". I watched this three times in a row to make sure I caught everything, and I don't think that's really the point that's being made. It's more on the lines of secular humanism, a topic I think is pretty friendly with The Law of One.

Have a look, I think there are a lot of great topics here we could explore.

http://www.wimp.com/moralquestions/

[jc2412]

I watched the first part of this talk a few weeks ago and I did not agree with his idea that it is our duty to speak out against moral injustices such as the treatment of females in middle eastern countries. While, I certainly don't agree with how woman are treated in certain parts of the world I don't agree that the change has to be coerced, even with the best intentions.

I spent about 10 years of my life exploring this topic in great detail as a Christian in a fairly evangelical church. I studied the bible with and baptized probably 50+ individuals during that time. It was with the best intentions to help them turn from their "sins" and find forgiveness. In reality I was dealing with my own guilt and projecting it onto everyone else, but that's a different story. One of the most frustrating aspects of that experience was dealing with how people reverted back to their old ways (whatever they were) after trying very hard to help them to change. Now I see it from a completely different angle that real change can only come from the inside.

Back to how women are treated in other countries. What we see are quite harsh situations that we would never take part of. The truth is that there is a back-story that we have no clue of as to why that soul would chose to go through that experience. Once souls don't have a need to go through those experiences, the catalyst will disappear. I can't imagine what those needs are, but I respect them nonetheless.

The deeper question here is there really such a thing as moral absolutes. 10 years ago, I would have said absolutely. I have always (at least during this life) tended to see things as black and white. I commented to my wife a few months ago that I wonder why did I chose that as a personality trait? The answer that came to me was that it helped me understand that the black and white that I saw has shifted quite a bit as I have matured. When I step back and remember what I was thinking during each phase of my life, I see that it all forms a very nice gradients of gray.

Interesting topic. Thanks!

[Turtle]

Yeah I completely agree with you jc. From a philosophical viewpoint, as well as a viewpoint coming from TLOO, I simply cannot subscribe to an ultimate-morality code without closing the doors on the infinite. I go only as far as to say that some morals work well for some, and other moral codes for other people. I say they "work well" for some because it is all about balance...balancing your mind/body/spirit distortions...and your set moral code (as well as alterations one makes to them over time) will definitely help you to feel more secure as you attempt to balance yourself.

Godspeed!

[ayadew]

Morality is one of the greatest questions regarding balancing love and wisdom.

Ra says that there is no failure/wrong, but that we are responsible for all that we do, think and value. You see the effects of your specific morality in the world. Will you embrace it, develop it or discard it? That's your responsibility to do, not anyone else. Morality is your own creation. You can justify anything you wish, with perhaps the ultimate justification being "god's will" which some of us so gladly use.

Do not judge others for what they value. You have absolutely no idea what path their soul is taking, as jc2412 says. You may like/dislike what they do, but they are as justified as your own actions.

I try to love them nontheless. This may be viewed to others as passivity, but what should I do? I just want to like everyone..

[Lavazza]

I have to be honest, I have some mixed feelings on his talk.

For a long time even before reading The Law of One books I had felt that as a westerner I really had no right to question the actions of another culture or religion, for example those in the middle east. However there was something about the way in which he presented his speech that made sense to me, although in a way he did not directly address. I hope I can explain this clearly...

Since humans / 3rd density has been around we have largely lived in a clan or tribe mentality. However, third density is rapidly ending, and of course at the same time our world is rapidly getting smaller. Not physically / literally, but in every other way. We can talk to people around the globe instantly, economies are now tied with every other economy. What one country decides to do with nuclear power effects every other country. Not to mention our large population is nearing 7 billion and rapidly increasing. Because of this we have seen many conflicts, and are continuing to see them appear. I see these as transitory artifacts resulting from many people / cultures having to interact with foreign people / cultures for the first time. Eventually we of Earth will have settled our differences and move forward as ONE harmonious culture, however long that should take.

I really feel that this is our future and in the context of the Law of One it fits in pretty well with a Utopian 4th density Earth. As such, why are we still pretending that there are these seeming impenetrable barriers between nations, cultures and people? We would not accept laws which forbid homosexuality in the west, nor would we accept dogmas that require women to hide themselves in public. But we would accept them in the middle east? But this makes no sense. We are one with the middle east, they are one with us. In a few hundred years, this will be a simple truth known to all. We are essentially holding back our own progress as a planetary species with the concept of isolated cultures, are we not?

Having said this, I do not believe it is our mandate to forcefully change people's minds through coercion or physical force. That would only increase the feeling of separation and hate which we have enough of already! And as you've said very wisely already, change on that level can only come from those individuals that hold those beliefs. From within. The best way to stimulate positive change then, is to perhaps do so by being an example of the love you would like to see in the world, as Ghandi said.

I guess what I learned from his talk was that we do not have to embrace all belief systems on an equal platform. We should love all people equally, but remember that the new culture of Earth that is being birthed is only going to be what we make it. In other words, we do not have to love all belief systems equally, and in fact it may be our duty to not do so. Similar to how 4th density positive confederation entities must reject the service offered by negative 4th density Orion crusaders so that the confederation as a whole may continue on in a loving way. (I hope that was a valid comparison, lol!)

Very interested to hear your thoughts,
~L

[ayadew]

You must walk the walk to talk the talk..

[jc2412]

I see where you're coming from Lavazza. The argument can be made that if we do not speak out against the atrocities that we see, are we not contributing to the problem? From a third density perspective it's easy to say that we are, but I no longer buy into this perspective.

One of the coolest things about our own physical bodies is that they reflect to us our spiritual issues. It takes some time to figure out the language, but once we do we can map most ailments to spiritual issues. For instance, one of my extended family members had breast cancer last year. This was/is very reflective of her holding on to issues/resentment and over-mothering her husband (among others).

The same is true of society. The wars, manipulation, mistrust and mistreatment we see happening globally are a reflection of our spiritual issues as a planet. As within, so without. So how do we effectively deal with them? I think the only way is to deal work through our own issues and simply reflect the love of the creator as best we can. Once we (as a whole) work through our spiritual issues, the external ones will disappear.

[Lavazza]

One of the coolest things about our own physical bodies is that they reflect to us our spiritual issues. It takes some time to figure out the language, but once we do we can map most ailments to spiritual issues. [...] The same is true of society. The wars, manipulation, mistrust and mistreatment we see happening globally are a reflection of our spiritual issues as a planet. As within, so without. So how do we effectively deal with them? I think the only way is to deal work through our own issues and simply reflect the love of the creator as best we can. Once we (as a whole) work through our spiritual issues, the external ones will disappear.

Points well made my friend, however I think it gets a bit more tricky when we discuss world issues such as war, gender inequality, economic inequality, lack of proper hygiene practices, lack of sufficient food and various other things that promote human misery. While I agree the people involved in such suffering are doubtlessly learning specific spiritual lessons, perhaps resolving old karma or balancing other lives, how can we be so sure that they have not also manifested people in the west who feel compassion and are motivated to help in humanitarian ways?

Ra spoke of this topic in session 42:

Questioner: I would like to try to make an analogy for third-density of this concept. Many entities here feel great compassion for relieving the physical problems of third-density other-selves by administering to them in many ways, with food if there is hunger as there is now in the African nations, by bringing them medicine if they feel that there is a need to minister to them medically, and being selfless in all of these services to a very great extent.

This is creating a vibration that is in harmony with green-ray or fourth-density but it is not balanced with the understanding of fifth-density that these entities are experiencing catalysts and a more balanced administration to their needs would be to provide them with the learning necessary to reach the state of awareness of fourth-density than it would be to minister to their physical needs at this time. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is incorrect. To a mind/body/spirit complex which is starving, the appropriate response is the feeding of the body. You may extrapolate from this.

On the other hand, however, you are correct in your assumption that the green ray response is not as refined as that which has been imbued with wisdom. This wisdom enables the entity to appreciate its contributions to the planetary consciousness by the quality of its being without regard to activity or behavior which expects results upon visible planes.

Questioner: Then why do we have the extreme starvation problem in, generally, the area of Africa at this time? Is there any metaphysical reason for this, or is it purely random?

Ra: I am Ra. Your previous assumption was correct as to the catalytic action of this starvation and ill health. However, it is within the free will of an entity to respond to this plight of otherselves, and the offering of the needed foodstuffs and substances is an appropriate response within the framework of your learn/teachings at this time which involve the growing sense of love for and service to other-selves.

I suppose you could argue that the highest service would be that of wisdom in letting them fix their own issues. Being in third density however and learning the ways of love or fourth density, it seems to me our highest response would be a reflection of love and manifested actions of aid. Part of the life lesson of one who is suffering in Africa may be to experience receiving aid, part of our life lesson may be to give that aid. I believe the same may be said of the loving rejection of philosophies given by certain cultures such as conservative Islam, to bring up a point made in the TED talk. Never of course, losing sight of the love for every human.

It is an interesting topic for sure.

[jc2412]

I agree that offering help and love is extremely important. The point that I got from the presenter in the video is that he feels a moral responsibility to speak out against/condemn seemingly immoral behavior, which I would argue is different than offering aid/love.

[Lavazza]

Well at any rate I think we agree on at least 90% on this topic, and that's good enough for me Say, JC, have you as of yet posted your story in the 'Wanderer's Stories' sub-forum? It sounds like you have an interesting story to share, coming from an evangelical church, studying the bible etc. All the way down the spectrum to reading the Law of One, etc. If you have time, I would love to hear it!

much light and even more love,
Lavazza

[jc2412]

I definitely know where you're coming from. I've been crunching on (for lack of a better term) the idea of faith vs action. My faith tells me that all is well, everything is one thing and that one thing is love (I'm sure I got that from one of the Qu'o channeling). The battle that I have is that idea that all is well. From my limited vantage point down in the valley all is not well with our extended consciousness on earth. We have extreme suffering and devastation. From a planetary consciousness perspective we're quite dysfunctional, and I want to help to cure the dis-ease.

When I raise my own consciousness to a higher level, I understand that it is all a process of learning and balancing. Suffering, even death is just a temporary transformation on our path to higher love. From that perspective I can sit have peace that all of this is for a reason and we don't have to carry the weight of the world on our shoulders.

But at the same time, part of growing spiritually is learning to take responsibility for our own actions, and for our actions as a whole. If that is the case, then we need to take learn to take control of our karmic direction and figure out how to get it together.

How do we balance all that out? I'm still trying to figure that part out! The deeper question is how much of this reality is designed and how much of it is from our own actions/reactions? I think it's both and the good news is that the design is changing as we enter 4th density, however that ends up being manifested.

No, I haven't had time yet. Thanks for the encouragement, I will have to start working on it soon!