I'm done with drugs and alcohol

[Tenet Nosce]

If I was to pile a bunch of leaves and dry grass in the middle of the lawn, light it on fire and tell you that you could have a spiritually enlightening experience if you would place your head over it and inhale the smoke, what would you tell me?

If it were merely leaves and dry grass, I would perhaps ask if you hadn't already smoked something else beforehand!

But in all seriousness, why are we here if not to use physicality as a means of having a spiritual experience? What makes one method any better than another?

For example, consider meditation. Some months ago I was preparing to give a talk on the interconnectedness of human beings, the sun and the earth, to a group of yogis. In my preparations, it occurred to me that I might be able to find some physical mechanism to explain the effects of certain meditative practices on the pineal gland, as it is often considered to be the mediator of spiritual experiences, through the secretion of a molecule called DMT.

I went back to the basic anatomy, and looked at the neurological input to the pineal gland. I found there are four neural ganglia (kind of like mini-brains or relay stations) that feed into the pineal gland. Turns out each of them is activated by a different behavior or activity that is associated with meditative practices.

One of them is located near the top of the cervical spine, right at the point where the neck flexes and extends when one is nodding. Thus, its activity is modulated by the specific angle at which the head rests upon the spine. Turns out the ideal angle is achieved by sitting with the spine fully erect, and the head positioned about 10-15 degrees below a line parallel with the ground. Just as the yogis recommend.

A second ganglion is stretched across a little plateau of bone in the inner ear, and responds to vibration, such as is generated by chanting, toning, hitting a gong, or ringing a bell or one of those Tibetan bowls.

A third one is related to the olfactory nerve, which translates our sense of smell as well as the sensation of air moving through the nasal cavity. Thus it is activated by the lighting of incense, and focusing one's awareness on the tip of the nose where the air is moving in and out. Another nerve from this ganglion drops down through the head and emerges right at the point where the hard palate meets the soft palate- exactly where yogis advise to place the tongue during meditative practice.

The fourth one is related to our perception of light and motion. Turns out that the perfect way to activate this one is to focus one's gaze at a flickering candlelight in an otherwise dim room... again just as the yogis recommend!

Point being... the human body is very specifically hard-wired to translate physical sensation into spiritual experience. If I were to say to a practitioner of meditation- oh you are just using physical sensations, such as sight, touch, smell, and sound in order to "artificially induce" a spiritual experience in your consciousness, most people would say... um... yes exactly! And this is "wrong" because...?

The question I am trying to get at is... it all comes down to chemical changes in the brain which are induced by physical things. I don't really see how the use of ingesting plant substances, such as tobacco, marijuana, ayahuasca, etc. are intrinsically any "worse" than straightening the spine, or burning incense, or striking a metal bowl, or lighting a candle.

In the final analysis, each "artificially induces" certain changes in the state of consciousness of an individual. And at the end of the day, that person is responsible for translating those experiences into something practical that can be applied in everyday life. If they are able to do this, then the experience was worth the effort. If not, then it was just another "escape from physical reality", and potentially addictive. I can think of quite a few yogis that appear to be using their "spiritual practice" as a means from escaping the challenges of everyday life.

[godwide_void]

The information regarding the neural ganglia is significant and the first I'd heard of this, and your presentation of this fact explains much.

I do not see either where you would draw the implication that natural entheogens was espoused as being intrinsically better or worse than any other method. Each and every methodology and process that may lead one to betterment of spiritual standing and advancement of consciousness is considered beneficial and desirable to utilize. Retaining a straight spine, incense, subjecting oneself to tones, focusing upon a lighted source, these are methods which will lead to the desired effect of facilitating a deeper meditative state and perhaps pave the way for higher experience somewhere down the line of one's individual spiritual practice. However, there is little comparison to be made between the states of consciousness induced by natural sacraments and what results from focused perceptual awareness and mindfulness. Perhaps a conjunction of the two would be a better final analysis that one may reach.

I am slightly confused on your emphasis on physical temporal sensation and categorization of certain facets as causing an 'artificial induction' of experience. One is merely a sentient content of consciousness interacting with the various forms which consciousness has taken. Whatever manifests as real to the perceiver is thus reality, and it is only through outside subjective perception and speculation that the conclusion of artificiality of experience or method is considered. To one, the practice and beliefs of the shaman may be viewed as calculated insanity or derangement following hogwash hallucinations. To the shaman himself, it is communion with guiding forces or spiritual cleansing. To another, none of what the shaman experiences is real because that individual doing the judging and speculation has little to no frame of reference or similar experience with which to use to comprehend the shaman's understandings and declarations.

Indeed, at the end of the day the individual is tasked with reflection and extracting from all which he has undergone on that day the valuable lessons, if any, which may be applicable to his own existence and may direct the design of his evolution. I would add however that it is impossible to escape from reality when one dwells within reality and is the ground of which all phenomenon in one's perceived reality occurs upon. How then, may one escape from themselves?

[Tenet Nosce]

Godwide- I agree. Which is why I put "artificially induced" and "escape from reality" in the quotes. To signify that these are phrases people use when discussing the topic, but that I question the objective validity of said phrases. What is "artificial"? What is "reality"? Hardly something which can be easily summarized to the satisfaction of all parties.

As a side note, I wish there were multiple kinds of quote thingies because they are used for so many divergent purposes that it ends up causing a lot of confusion!

[JoshC]

Good for you man, I've had success with the route you've decided to take too. Much good fortune to you.

[Ali Quadir]

If you use drugs you feed your animal body. The mind rationalizes that there are spiritual teachings in it.And the spirit will feed you spiritual teachings. But the mind follows the body and the spirit does it's own thing. It is better to have the body follow the mind and have that follow the spirit.

However, to dismiss any potential spiritual gnosis ascertained from the usage of natural sacraments as being a figment of the mind is

Returning to the addressing of Ali's quote above, you seem to be placing some sort of division on spiritual lessons and implying that the body and mind have no role in this.

You're missing my point godwide... I am not saying there are no spiritual lessons to be had. In fact I stated quite the opposite. I'm saying that unless the spiritual body controls the mental body and the mental body controls the physical body you are not having any spiritual lessons.

You're then just getting high and just getting stupid. And the only lesson to be had there is that on the long run it is not worth your time and energy.

When all bodies are properly aligned and the locus of control is from the top down you can do pretty much anything you like provided it does not disturb the locus of control.

If you take a drug because your body craves it. Not because a spiritual experience is waiting to come in. But your intellect rationalizes it as spiritual experience anyway.. Then you're just fooling yourself wasting your time, and claiming you're very spiritually active.

Spiritual experience and spiritual growth do not require the use of any drugs. Some may find their shamanic use facilitating. But that's all... The shamanic use of drugs is also totally different from the use of drugs we know in the west today. There is a whole lot of preparation required and body of knowledge associated.

To say that just ingesting a substance will lead to spiritual growth is naive at best and dangerous at worst.

[Shin'Ar]

But in all seriousness, why are we here if not to use physicality as a means of having a spiritual experience? What makes one method any better than another?

In my thinking, methodology and control of the particulars is crucial to what one will gain from the experience.

I would not think that flailing around in a state of chaos, like a voodoo ritual or the speaking of tongues in a charismatic gathering, would not be an experience of beneficial opportunity.

[Tenet Nosce]

I would not think that flailing around in a state of chaos, like a voodoo ritual or the speaking of tongues in a charismatic gathering, would not be an experience of beneficial opportunity.

Can you restate that without using a double negative? I'm not quite sure what you mean.

[Shin'Ar]

I would not think that flailing around in a state of chaos, like a voodoo ritual or the speaking of tongues in a charismatic gathering, would not be an experience of beneficial opportunity.

Can you restate that without using a double negative? I'm not quite sure what you mean.

lol Valtor,

screaming banshee=bad, not good


and you, of all people, gonna pik on me for grammar?

[Patrick]

I would not think that flailing around in a state of chaos, like a voodoo ritual or the speaking of tongues in a charismatic gathering, would not be an experience of beneficial opportunity.

Can you restate that without using a double negative? I'm not quite sure what you mean.

lol Valtor,

screaming banshee=bad, not good


and you, of all people, gonna pik on me for grammar?

Can you believe that my grammar is better in English than in my mother tongue French ?

[Tenet Nosce]

I would not think that flailing around in a state of chaos, like a voodoo ritual or the speaking of tongues in a charismatic gathering, would not be an experience of beneficial opportunity.

Can you restate that without using a double negative? I'm not quite sure what you mean.

lol Valtor,

screaming banshee=bad, not good


and you, of all people, gonna pik on me for grammar?

Dude- did you have too much sugar this morning?! That was me, not Valtor. And I wasn't picking on you, I really wanted to know what you meant so I could make sure I was responding to what you actually said, rather than what my mind made up about what you said.

[Namaste]

I'm really ashamed that I've lied to myself for 13 years saying it was a spiritual tool, but its anything but. I've had so many morbid thoughts pop in my head and felt presences around me when I was on that s***, besides being paranoid and being around the dumbest people.

Very well done for getting yourself free of an addiction!

Paranoia is the clear sign of negative, habitual use. As with anything, there are users, and there are abusers. A close friend of mine (from university) is an abuser, it's a habitual process that keeps him from confronting and dealing with 'reality'. Dulling spiritual growth.

Marijuana is a very effective spiritual tool if used in the correct manner. I use it sacramentally, biannually, and the insights, love and downloads received from the connection one can make are absolutely unbelievable.

The key is intention. Why are you consuming this gift of nature? Is it to dull, to avoid, or is it to expand? I have experienced wonderful moments of clarity and oneness, simply by setting specific intentions (the expansion of consciousness / discovering more of the self / opening up to love).

These brief moments are signposts, they give one a glimpse of the abilities one always has. A permission slip, as Bashar quite wonderfully puts it, to be used to steer one in the direction of achieving these states of mind without 'external' catalyst.

[Shin'Ar]

I would not think that flailing around in a state of chaos, like a voodoo ritual or the speaking of tongues in a charismatic gathering, would not be an experience of beneficial opportunity.

Can you restate that without using a double negative? I'm not quite sure what you mean.

lol Valtor,

screaming banshee=bad, not good


and you, of all people, gonna pik on me for grammar?

Dude- did you have too much sugar this morning?! That was me, not Valtor. And I wasn't picking on you, I really wanted to know what you meant so I could make sure I was responding to what you actually said, rather than what my mind made up about what you said.

haha sorry to both of you guys. Not too much sugar, just a little off schedule thats all. Started a new work shift this week and it takes a while to adjust. That is the excuse I am sticking with for now anyway.

But you gotta hate those dou8ble negatives eh. did he mean this or that?

Just be glad you don't live in Newfoundland, they are famous for that.

[Unbound]

Are you from Newfoundland, Shin'Ar?

[godwide_void]

If you use drugs you feed your animal body. The mind rationalizes that there are spiritual teachings in it.And the spirit will feed you spiritual teachings. But the mind follows the body and the spirit does it's own thing. It is better to have the body follow the mind and have that follow the spirit.

However, to dismiss any potential spiritual gnosis ascertained from the usage of natural sacraments as being a figment of the mind is

Returning to the addressing of Ali's quote above, you seem to be placing some sort of division on spiritual lessons and implying that the body and mind have no role in this.

You're missing my point godwide... I am not saying there are no spiritual lessons to be had. In fact I stated quite the opposite. I'm saying that unless the spiritual body controls the mental body and the mental body controls the physical body you are not having any spiritual lessons.

You're then just getting high and just getting stupid. And the only lesson to be had there is that on the long run it is not worth your time and energy.

When all bodies are properly aligned and the locus of control is from the top down you can do pretty much anything you like provided it does not disturb the locus of control.

If you take a drug because your body craves it. Not because a spiritual experience is waiting to come in. But your intellect rationalizes it as spiritual experience anyway.. Then you're just fooling yourself wasting your time, and claiming you're very spiritually active.

Spiritual experience and spiritual growth do not require the use of any drugs. Some may find their shamanic use facilitating. But that's all... The shamanic use of drugs is also totally different from the use of drugs we know in the west today. There is a whole lot of preparation required and body of knowledge associated.

To say that just ingesting a substance will lead to spiritual growth is naive at best and dangerous at worst.

I am in utmost agreement with you, especially in the notion that ingestion of a sacrament will constantly and consistently contribute to spiritual evolution, which it will not; I merely implied that these sacraments can produce such experiences for particular individuals, whether intended and sought or unintentional and spontaneous, not that every single instance of ingestion will lead to a spiritual experience by every single person whom partakes of them. Sacramental usage of entheogens runs the gamut of effects ranging from visionary states to communion, or as simple as extreme clarity and a more enhanced intuition. It must be considered however that there resides some form of intelligence in these plants which would explain why the results of symbiosis with them vary so widely.

If one's intention is to enter and utilize the experience for spiritual growth then chances are that spiritual growth will be attained in some form. Though it all comes down to set and setting, which further supports your statement that 'just' ingesting a substance will lead to spiritual growth. It isn't as simple as that.

The primary difference between the shamanic usage of substances and Western usage is in the mentality. Whereas the former predominately approached these sacraments with reverence, with the intention to grow closer with nature and strengthen their divine bonds and achieve spiritual ecstasy, the latter retain a mindset conditioned by Western culture and hold skepticism in regards to the effectiveness of how plants could possibly have such profound benefits, especially plants that our ancestors many millenia ago used and derived vast amounts of plant gnosis from.

[Shin'Ar]

Are you from Newfoundland, Shin'Ar?

No, not a newfie.

[Oceania]

I guess this is a follow up to my most recent post. I've decided to give up cannabis for good forever. I accept the fact that it is a very useful medicine and hemp is a priceless material, but I believe its not to be used as a drug whatsoever.

I'm really ashamed that I've lied to myself for 13 years saying it was a spiritual tool, but its anything but. I've had so many morbid thoughts pop in my head and felt presences around me when I was on that s***, besides being paranoid and being around the dumbest people.

It's time for me to be that powerful Being of Light I was born to be. I can only reach my full potential sober and cleansed.

Adonai

i think admitting you've lied to yourself is brave and more impressive than leading a perfect life from the start. only the strongest and bravest are able to admit to their mistakes and grow from them. i really admire that because i can't admit to some of mine. so celebrate.

[Tenet Nosce]

Shoutout to Tango, for directing my attention to this most excellent quote in another thread:

The proper role of the entity is in this density to experience all things desired, to then analyze, understand, and accept these experiences, distilling from them the love/light within them. Nothing shall be overcome. That which is not needed falls away.

The orientation develops due to analysis of desire. These desires become more and more distorted towards conscious application of love/light as the entity furnishes itself with distilled experience. We have found it to be inappropriate in the extreme to encourage the overcoming of any desires, except to suggest the imagination rather than the carrying out in the physical plane, as you call it, of those desires not consonant with the Law of One; this preserving the primal distortion of free will.

The reason it is unwise to overcome is that overcoming is an unbalanced action creating difficulties in balancing in the time/space continuum. Overcoming thus creates the further environment for holding onto that which apparently has been overcome.

All things are acceptable in the proper time for each entity, and in experiencing, in understanding, in accepting, in then sharing with other-selves, the appropriate description shall be moving away from distortions of one kind to distortions of another which may be more consonant with the Law of One.

It is, shall we say, a shortcut to simply ignore or overcome any desire. It must instead be understood and accepted. This takes patience and experience which can be analyzed with care, with compassion for self and for other-self.

[Richard]

Weed was a toy of my youth. I have no regrets for the good times I had with friends...laughing, talking gibberish that made perfect sense at the time...yet caused us all to laugh till we could barely breathe.

Yet I never had the "habit" take a hold of my life, since for whatever genetic reason...I simply couldn't function in life while high. Once I was out of college and was working for a living..after a few years my smoking just tapered off til one day I realized, "Wow, I haven't smoked a thing in over a year"

I don't miss the weed at all. I do however, when I think about it sometimes, miss those old friends and the comraderie we shared back then.

I still enjoy a nice single malt scotch every now and then though.

Richard

[Avocado]

Wow, there is some really insightful stuff in this thread. Nice topic greatspirit. And good for you for finding cannabis' place in your life.

I went back to the basic anatomy, and looked at the neurological input to the pineal gland. I found there are four neural ganglia (kind of like mini-brains or relay stations) that feed into the pineal gland. Turns out each of them is activated by a different behavior or activity that is associated with meditative practices.

One of them is located near the top of the cervical spine, right at the point where the neck flexes and extends when one is nodding. Thus, its activity is modulated by the specific angle at which the head rests upon the spine. Turns out the ideal angle is achieved by sitting with the spine fully erect, and the head positioned about 10-15 degrees below a line parallel with the ground. Just as the yogis recommend.

A second ganglion is stretched across a little plateau of bone in the inner ear, and responds to vibration, such as is generated by chanting, toning, hitting a gong, or ringing a bell or one of those Tibetan bowls.

A third one is related to the olfactory nerve, which translates our sense of smell as well as the sensation of air moving through the nasal cavity. Thus it is activated by the lighting of incense, and focusing one's awareness on the tip of the nose where the air is moving in and out. Another nerve from this ganglion drops down through the head and emerges right at the point where the hard palate meets the soft palate- exactly where yogis advise to place the tongue during meditative practice.

The fourth one is related to our perception of light and motion. Turns out that the perfect way to activate this one is to focus one's gaze at a flickering candlelight in an otherwise dim room... again just as the yogis recommend!

I found this VERY useful. Science really motivates me. Thank you very much for sharing Tenet.

Also thanks to Godwide_void for helping me see new light. I've very recently formed a spiritual bond with psychedlic plants (havn't used them since forming said bond) but I've lacked the language to describe my feelings for them. Instead of "tripping" I can now apply my newfound vocabulary which further reinforces my feelings. I hold reverence and immense gratitude for the plants that help facillitate spiritual communion.

---

Oh Tenet. Are you a scientist or something? Is it possible for a lay person to look this stuff up like me. I like to go off people's words and believe them but it would be nice to share this with others who don't work like me. thanks

[Tenet Nosce]

Thank you very much for sharing Tenet.

You're welcome!

Oh Tenet. Are you a scientist or something? Is it possible for a lay person to look this stuff up like me. I like to go off people's words and believe them but it would be nice to share this with others who don't work like me. thanks

I am a doctor, so having a better idea what the technical jargon means makes the process easier. But- one doesn't need any special resources other than the Internet.

All I did was nose around on the net until I found a page which described the nervous input into the pineal gland. Then, I looked up the nerves themselves to see what physical pathways they traverse in the body. Then I looked up the ganglia, or relay stations, to see what kind of information was being passed through there. It was then I realized that each one carries information generated by a different behavior associated with meditation.

The challenge with doing this kind of research is more due to having to pull bits and pieces from various sources, as no single source puts them all together. There are so many things like this out there, that I have to admit the most rational explanation I can come up with is that there actually are people out there somewhere with a clear intention to draw people's attention away from certain ideas, and have enough control of the media sources to pull it off.

I've trained my mind to look for the information that is limited or missing. Whether it's a news report or a textbook- a part of my mind is looking closely at the boundaries of the information offered, and noticing if there are any gaps or holes. I find them all the time, and they tend to lead to fascinating places.

[Steppingfeet]

I guess this is a follow up to my most recent post. I've decided to give up cannabis for good forever. I accept the fact that it is a very useful medicine and hemp is a priceless material, but I believe its not to be used as a drug whatsoever.

I'm really ashamed that I've lied to myself for 13 years saying it was a spiritual tool, but its anything but. I've had so many morbid thoughts pop in my head and felt presences around me when I was on that s***, besides being paranoid and being around the dumbest people.

It's time for me to be that powerful Being of Light I was born to be. I can only reach my full potential sober and cleansed.

Adonai

Cheers to you, GreatSpirit! Ra says of the seeker's path that that which is not needed, falls away. (18.5)

So perhaps for those thirteen years "the marijuana" (<-- Ra joke) was needed on some level. Only when you finally became fully conscious of the fact that it is no longer needed has it "fallen away", and hopefully stays fallen away.

My own experience is slightly similar to yours. Weed served as a social glue and principle activity for my friends and I in the high school years, and I genuinely loved smoking it.

The summer I graduated high school my own awakening to spirituality began (something I realized only in retrospect), I shipped off to Basic Training, and returned with a hunger to again indulge in the substance as I had in my high school years. But for some inexplicable reason I had a dramatically difference experience with weed upon returning home for Christmas leave. My thoughts began to scatter, I couldn't quite make sense of my own mind, I became paranoid, experienced crippling self-doubt, my nervous system felt like it was going on the fritz with change in heart rate and difficulty breathing in regular rhythms, and so on and so forth. A wholly negative experience.

The delineation was that sharp for me. In August of 98 I could smoke. In December of the same year I could not. And it's been that way ever since, which isn't to say I haven't stubbornly tried to smoke! As Ali said in an earlier post to this thread, the smell can be so sweet. So I foolishly attempted a couple times each year, naively hoping that maybe this time the experience would be different. But reliably and predictably I experienced the same negative set of conditions. (Though over the years the negative conditions lessened in their severity as I became a more conscious and self-forgiven being.)

Until finally, about twelve years of trying after the point when smoking weed became nonviable, I came across a friend who had become a connoisseur of growing bud. She knew all the breeds, knew how to properly care for the plants, grew it organically, and even sung to the plants! She literally felt that it was an honor to grow this material and that she had a sacred relationship with the essence of the marijuana.

I thought to myself that if this didn't create a positive experience for me, nothing would. And upon trying, as could have been predicted, I had the same set of negative experiences. And I've never attempted it again.

But it took me about twelve years of repeated, idiotic trying to become totally convinced that it was no longer for me!

My conclusion regarding my relationship to this substance is that it was part of my pre-incarnational programming to discontinue its use upon my conscious entry onto the spiritual path. Much in the way as is indicated here in 54.21.

Questioner: A positively oriented entity may select a certain narrow path of thinking and activities during an incarnation and program conditions that would create physical pain if this were not followed. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct.

Further I queried Q'uo almost a decade ago about why I had such a debilitating experience with marijuana. They responded:

"We are aware that there are certain, shall we say, parameters which have been drawn by your higher self in your preincarnative choices for this incarnation which were necessary in order to focus the considerable amount of spiritual energy that is available for your service and your learning. The desire was that there would be a near-complete reliance upon your natural ability to access this information without the use of any aid or crutch such as that which you have mentioned, the marijuana. Thus, we find there is a preincarnative choice that has expressed its qualities in your conscious and subconscious response to the experience you have described."

But this just pertains to my path. I know many people I would consider very spiritually developed who use and enjoy the substance in moderation with little to no negative side-effects.

Good luck to you in finding a natural route for that which you called upon marijuana. As has been said earlier in this thread, you are bigger than the substance and the need for the substance, and you have within you whatever it is you had hoped to create with marijuana.

And otherwise awesome discussion everyone! Thank you especially Tenet for the information about the four ganglia inputs into the pineal gland.

Much love, GLB