In regards to eating meat

[Monica]

You don't take what I'm saying as authoritative?

No offense! but no...

[Tenet Nosce]

I would ask you to ask Gaia if we should stop having children because it causes us suffering.

I think you missed my point. You seem to readily accept someone's assertion that 'Gaia' said something, because it agrees with your own opinion.

So I was wondering whether you would so readily accept it, if it didn't agree.

I'm answering your question. If somebody literally told me that, I would proceed to validate their source by asking other questions, such as the one I offered.

No- I'm sorry but you are the one who missed my point. I am neutral on "what Gaia said" and thought it was humorous that any single person would think they could speak for Gaia. I believe my post was:

ROFL @ "... what Gaia thinks..." as if we know.

Anyway- you seem to have a line on Gaia. What say she? Having babies causes us to suffer. Should we stop?

[Monica]

Don't have to watch the videos...it's all happening in real time.

Oh but people do watch videos! They're great fun!

[Shemaya]

You don't take what I'm saying as authoritative?

No offense! but no...

No offense taken...I am Christian too, if I was to get offended, that probably happened a long time ago.

[Monica]

No- I'm sorry but you are the one who missed my point. I am neutral on "what Gaia said" and thought it was humorous that any single person would think they could speak for Gaia. I believe my post was:

ROFL @ "... what Gaia thinks..." as if we know.

Ah, you're right. I did miss your point!

[Tenet Nosce]

Ah, you're right. I did miss your point!

:exclamation::idea:

[Monica]

No need to get carried away now! I only meant in that one instance. Don't let it go to your head!

[Tenet Nosce]

No need to get carried away now! I only meant in that one instance. Don't let it go to your head!

Sorry.. but I wanted to get everything wrapped up by 11:11.

[Monica]

Sorry.. but I wanted to get everything wrapped up by 11:11.

Um...Isn't that a bit...manipulative?

[3DMonkey]

Videos? Here is Gaia. What trips me out is that the machines are made up of Gaia. She must be proud. I'm serious. [video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK18ThTFP_Q& [/video]

[Monica]

Sorry.. but I wanted to get everything wrapped up by 11:11.

Um...Isn't that a bit...manipulative?

Oh darn! I forgot the damn smiley.

[Tenet Nosce]

This thread is some serious entertainment for the anonymous masses.

I've about to have a second bowl of ice cream!! It is called "Coffee Creation" and was invented by a bunch of kids! Too bad I now am responsible for going back and telling those kids that their ice cream making caused Gaia to suffer. Kind of takes the joy out of the ice cream...

But anyway, that's enough about me. Is that popcorn I smell in the background?

[yossarian]

You keep characterizing me as a fanatic.

Actually no, I have not once characterized you- yossarian- as a fanatic. At the most I insinuated that *your post* sounded fanatical to me. Just as when you called my view "bigoted" I didn't think you were characterizing me, as a whole person, a bigot.

In response to my post, you said:

From my own perspective my behaviour then appears fanatical and extremist. But I basically express myself in a sensationalist, extremist way most of the time.

Then, you later said:

I'm still a fanatic just not about food.

Looks like you called yourself a fanatic and are now accusing me of doing so for replying:

Yes, I want to understand more of what it is like to be a fanatic. It appears that you have had success balancing this issue within yourself, and I would like you to share your wisdom with me about it. I feel it is my honor/responsibility to offer balance to the energy of fanaticism in the world, and I wish to be more empowered to do that through understanding the process by which a fanatic arrives at balance.

Is this what you are talking about? Otherwise I am at a loss.

Almost everyone would consider that an attack.

No, I don't think so. Firstly- how about your own self?

Only extremists and sensationalists are listened to.

So, I'm a little confused... you call yourself a fanatic, then claim that only extremists are listened to. Now you feel "attacked"? Sounds like you should feel "honored" to me. Isn't that what you are going for as a genuine expression of yourself?

When I describe myself as a fanatic, it's not with glowing adoration. It's like describing myself as fat, stupid, or ugly. It may be true but that doesn't mean I like that part of myself. I also described fanatics as lonely and lost children.

When you say "the person who said the 25g comment" is a fanatic I know you're referring to me. You keep repeating/mentioning that over and over. You don't use my name you just say what I said and then link it to fanaticism and elitism. I guess you're also referring to Monica and some others.

My opinion was that his advice could be potentially dangerous due to the recommendation of 25 grams of protein a day. My further opinion was on the concept of zealotry- where it came from and how it feeds into the issue of food.

The body of knowledge I hold does not make me "superior" it makes me responsible. That includes speaking up when I see 25 grams of protein a day being made as general recommendations to be "more spiritual".

The communication isn't about how so-and-so is an elitist, prejudiced, or a fanatic. It is about how each of us gives a "free pass" to these when it just so happens to support our personal agenda. It is a dynamic, not a specific word or action or person.

The communication is also about- if one is an activist- (and aren't we all in our own way?) why not look within to one's own "ranks" and see where elitism, prejudice, and fanaticism are given a "free pass" by those in the community.

So basically describing me as an irresponsible elitist prejudiced fanatic.

Maybe it's true. But it's still an attack bro.

Secondly- I wouldn't say "almost everybody" would perceive it as an attack. In my opinion, most people give fanaticism the silent nod, so long as it suits their own personal agenda, as I stated above. Besides that, I can think of several people who would be proud to call themselves a fanatic.

No one wants to be described as an irresponsible elitist prejudiced fanatic If you actually think people don't see this as an attack...

---

Okay, Diana. That's where I emphatically disagree with the spiritual tone of this thread. There is no harm in joy of the moment. Absolutely none. If joy of the moment is seen as a compromise of with evil three persons removed, then joy is never accessible, and we might as well lock ourselves in a tomb of purity.

Wow! First time I can remember you saying something I understood!

[Tenet Nosce]

No one wants to be described as an irresponsible elitist prejudiced fanatic If you actually think people don't see this as an attack...

If your feelings are truly hurt, then I truly do apologize.

[drifting pages]

I have to post again in the 111th page of a legendary thread.

The power of the 111 solves all.

From hence forth there will be no more disagreements or opposing views, all will be assimilated into 111.

111
111
111
111
111
111
111
111
111
111
111

[yossarian]

This thread is some serious entertainment for the anonymous masses.

Yeah!

Speaking of entertainment, has anyone else watched the slaughterhouse videos yet? They are great entertainment! Who needs Netflix!

I watched them. Reminded me to always buy at whole foods >_<

[Tenet Nosce]

When I describe myself as a fanatic, it's not with glowing adoration. It's like describing myself as fat, stupid, or ugly. It may be true but that doesn't mean I like that part of myself.

I see. Well then I understand how you could feel that way. I had a different idea in mind of how you felt, so thanks for clarifying.

When you say "the person who said the 25g comment" is a fanatic I know you're referring to me. You keep repeating/mentioning that over and over. You don't use my name you just say what I said and then link it to fanaticism and elitism. I guess you're also referring to Monica and some others.

It is a group dynamic that I am talking about, not any single individual. I must not be doing a very good job of explaining it. It is bigger than any one person, and affects us all. We are all participating in it, as it moves in and out of us. Sorry- I guess I just don't have the right words to express the idea in my mind. It seems silly to keep trying at this point.

---

I have to post again in the 111th page of a legendary thread.

The power of the 111 solves all.

From hence forth there will be no more disagreements or opposing views, all will be assimilated into 111.

111
111
111
111
111
111
111
111
111
111
111

I think you need to distribute 11 likes to this thread, thus bringing your total to 111, in order to complete the ritual.

[drifting pages]

Any trigger/taboo topic in a society/particular cultures does what has happened here.

I think overall this thread is being an excellent teacher of things i may have ignored in my heart on topics that go beyond animal eating and suffering.

[Monica]

It is a group dynamic that I am talking about, not any single individual.

Well if you're going to talk about group dynamics, what about the other group dynamics? You have described only your perception of only 1 single dynamic coming from those you consider 'fanatical vegans' and actually I don't even think there are very many vegans on this thread.

What about the meat-eaters dynamic of dog-piling on a vegetarian, and predictably all 'liking' whenever they perceive the 'meat' side scoring a point or a snide remark is made towards a vegetarian?

Not to mention, that the meat-eaters greatly outnumber the vegetarians, both in this thread and in the community as a whole, not to mention in everyday life.

Sort of neutralizes the idea that the vegetarians are 'elitist' because 'elitist' usually implies a small, special group. The majority cannot be elitist, because...they're the majority! And clearly, meat-eaters are the majority!

So if anything, it seems to me more of a case of the majority dog-piling on the minority, and then blasting the minority with cries of "elitist!" when they claw their way out of the pile.

[BrownEye]

Is that popcorn I smell in the background?

This guy is kind of a nut. Not because he uses AK of course.

Check out the 1:03 mark. You will see why I call him a nut.

[Monica]

Just started a sister thread, without the abuse:

http://bring4th.org/forums/showthread.php?tid=4640

[drifting pages]

There you go:

I have 111 likes given.

At the 111th page.

Done.

LoL

[Diana]

No I can't, it would require extra effort to do more than I do. And if I am buying and cooking meat for my family it is not causing any more harm, they are already eating it, me eating some of it changes nothing.

I don't want to belabor this point, or single you out, but I want to clarify this.

How would you not eating meat cause you any more effort than what you are putting out now?

You eating the meat does mean something, no matter what you tell your family members: that your actions are in agreement with meat-eating. Out of love for your family, you might cook meat for them; but when they see you abstain from eating the meat (hypothetically), they will know that you are also standing up for what you believe in for yourself. That would have an effect.

Again, it isn't my intention to dissect you, but to make these points in general.

---

I think rational thought is best used to look at where we want to be in the future as compared to where we are now.

Then- what is the purpose of telling people others how they feel, or how they should feel, as regards this issue? Do you think this helps or hinders us in getting where we want to be?

I agree with Pickle's statement.

But Tenet, why do you think anyone is telling anyone what they should feel? Becoming aware of the ramifications of eating meat might involve feelings, if one opened their heart to the animals. I think the advocates of a plant-based diet here are just trying to bring awareness.

Then look at what steps actually need to be taken to get from here to there.

What do you see as the next step?

Move to a plant-based diet.

I think we are evolving beyond our animal nature. The older parts of our brains don't serve us as they used to and are causing problems in modern-day society (fight-or-flight response to stress, for instance).

In the animal world, it is predator/prey. As humans evolve, it seems natural to move away from instinctive animal behavior, in favor of higher consciousness behavior. It is more conscious to honor the sacrifice of an animal for food than not to honor it. But it is still in the cycle of predator/prey.

Caveat: I am not saying that I have higher consciousness because I am vegetarian. I do think that moving past predator/prey participation can facilitate evolution of consciousness.

[Ankh]

Why do they speak as though being a vegetarian is a lot of work?

It is a lot fo work for me. Can't speak for others.

It simply isn't.

It is for me.

If anything, it's easier.

It is not for me.

You will save $$ on your grocery bill, and maybe even on healthcare costs long-term.

I did not. On contrary, it was more expensive for me.

It's simply a myth, that becoming a vegetarian takes more time, money or work. That's simply not true.

It was true for me. I was vegetarian for many years. I started to be a vegatarian in my teens, and even thought that the ultimate thing would be to not to eat anything that is living in the nature, but what nature has to offer, such as fruits, some seeds, nuts etc. When I got pregnant, I had to start to eat the meat again. I've tried to go veg since then, couple of times. But it takes more time, more money and more work - for me, which I don't have right now. So it is simply true - for me. I don't have that time and that energy - for the moment.

You can speak for yourself, but not for other people. Perhaps this is what causing friction, harshness, and rough and tough tone in this thread? I am not talking about you specifically, because as Tenet pointed out, this is a group energy. (We are all kind of stuck with each other infinitely in that oneness I've heard about )

Going veg is easy! It really really is!

It's not for me. It really isn't.

No vegetarian on this forum has said anything that shot anyone down, or imposed guilt on them. I invite you to consider where the guilt is coming from. It's not coming from me, Pickle, Diana, yossarian, Pablisimo, or any of the other vegetarians (if there are others I've missed).

I wasn't speaking to you personally in my post. I was speaking to another member about things that I spoke of in that post to that member. And I wish to not to be stuck now in a debate of who is doing what, because as Tenet pointed out this is a group energy. What I can say is that no matter how much encouragement and messages of self respect I may try to bring, if other selves would rather believe in messages of guilt, disempowerment and disencouragement - then it is their difficult lessons that they are very hard trying to learn, Monica. Their choices will not stop me though from trying to bring these messages over and over again. Words have power, and we can either use them to create walls, or bridges. Some services/words that we bring to others are disempowering and discouraging, and not seeing the human behind the message they are written to, but are addressed to invisible readers; and some services/words are empowering that human being they are written to, and encouriging him/her.

Guilt, when there's nothing we can do, is counterproductive.

Guilt, when there IS something we can do, serves a purpose.

I would rather not give *any* messages *at all* that would bring people guilt, as I believe it to be a negative catalyst, that is already provided in abundance upon this planet.

Isn't this the way STS gain their bonus points? By controlling people - usually by disempowering them.

I agree with you. One does not have to be a polarized serving to self entity in order to disempower other selves. One can be in the sinkhole of indifference, or even be positively polarized, and yet, sometimes, disencourage and disempower other selves. Maybe because of not yet processed catalysts/distortions? But disempowering other people and creating guilt is something that is NOT serving other selves in a positive sense, imho.

Our thoughts are powerful. They don't just affect ourselves.

I totally agree! You know, I was thinking about the negative thoughts that I have about myself sometimes, and I realized that these thoughts I am thinking about myself - I would *never* think in such ways about others! And it was like a lightning that struck me - that these thoughts *do* affect me. That they hurt! They hurt me badly, but since they are not spoken, or visible so I can see them, they oftentimes pass through me *without me noticing them*, but they do hurt. And I guess that since they hurt me, they also hurt others too...

And as @ndy said, there are those STS entities with agendas that seek to disempower. One of those ways is in creating a guilt- complex, which they effectively did when the teachings of Jesus were corrupted and made into a religion. That is what I am finding uncomfortable in the thread, the implication that guilt is a good motivation for our actions and choices. To me that is a disempowered way of choosing.

I agree with you.

Thank you Ankh, it's feels good to be understood, we are each perfect in our own way, I agree.

I agree, building others up, gratitude and appreciation, encouraging each other to believe in ourselves, this will raise the vibe and move us from the yellow ray to the heart.

I agree. We are all trying so hard to do what we can, but each is being unique and offering its own unique services. I wish that we could also, soon, start serving each other here, in this forum, by encouraging and empowering each other, understanding each other's differences, accepting them as our own and building bridges between us. Maybe we will succeed soon? I've heard something about Gaia being in fourth density already. /

[Shemaya]

No I can't, it would require extra effort to do more than I do. And if I am buying and cooking meat for my family it is not causing any more harm, they are already eating it, me eating some of it changes nothing.

I don't want to belabor this point, or single you out, but I want to clarify this.

How would you not eating meat cause you any more effort than what you are putting out now?

You eating the meat does mean something, no matter what you tell your family members: that your actions are in agreement with meat-eating. Out of love for your family, you might cook meat for them; but when they see you abstain from eating the meat (hypothetically), they will know that you are also standing up for what you believe in for yourself. That would have an effect.

Again, it isn't my intention to dissect you, but to make these points in general

I am in agreement with meat- eating, as is Ra, the Law of One and Q'uo and that has already been extensively covered so I won't provide quotes. My family does see me abstain from meat sometimes. I strive to eat healthy, and do frequently eat vegetarian. I have a gluten allergy and anemia, so that takes special consideration for my diet...can't eat Boca burgers. I don't have a wife like Pickle does to make me great food...it's all on me to provide this service for me and a family of 5. If I were to become fanatic about it, then I'd have to figure out what to feed my pets. Which would be probably a big expense, and probably not good for them.
It's easy to be vegetarian if you only have yourself to think about, but it isn't in a social context when you are the only veggie and you are coming from a Christian/ republican oriented mindset of your community.

[Ali Quadir]

Thank you for sharing that, Shemaya. It helps to alleviate the feeling of loneliness and general lack of support I have been feeling regarding my comments in this thread. I know my behavior and words deserve some rebuke of their own. However I also do know that I am not the only one who feels this way, and that there are multiple others who just won't participate in this thread, period, for the same reasons.

It is nice and convenient to package up all these feelings people are having and wrap them in a tidy bow of "immense guilt and shame they are denying from being meat eaters" and be off on one's merry vegan way. But even if that were true- how is that compassionate?

I too thought that was rather unpalatable. The ease with which other peoples behaviors are judged is saddening. The amount of flak you received for voicing your opinion was equally not deserved. And the reason I open my mouth now.

I don't participate in this topic because it gives me a bad taste to my mouth. I am a vegetarian myself. But I've figured out a long time ago that the "superiority complex" many vegetarians have and wield over others is contraproductive... I really don't like to discuss the subject, especially not with other vegetarians. To my experience it always ends up in holier than thou crap. You just can't reason with 'us'.

Jesus said something very appropriate "What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.'" And I think that is very relevant in this context.

Vegetarians who shut up about their chocies and are supportive to everyone who wishes to reduce their use of animal products, and non judgmental to everyone else do exist.

I fear though that this topic is representative for the majority of us. I think the best we can do is ignore it in the hope it goes away.

[drifting pages]

I think the way to heal from perceived injury/fight/hurt is to realize that everyone is reflecting you at some level and then to let go of the need to control and convince them to the path you think is right.

And furthermore to adopt an attitude of detachment and living in the moment in the joy of all that is.

The ecstasy of existing, of breathing of being, of knowing all is truly well no matter what

[3DMonkey]

This thread has been used as a platform instead of a discussion about personal spiritual perspectives regarding consumption of animals. As a platform, positioning and politicking has ensued. As a result, considerate behavior was abandoned.

I feel like the only view I have expressed in this thread, on its intended subject, is that anyone's spirit is okay if they eat meat. The rest of my posts were defending the inconsiderate political tactics taken toward my character.

[@ndy]

I feel like we need a thread to discuss how we all discussed the meat thread

Ankh and Shemaya, I share your veiws..... I'm more intreasted in the dynamic of this discussion than the actual issue of what we consume.

[Diana]

Okay. You win.

I must say at this point that for some reason, I feel utterly misrepresented (as a vegetarian trying to discuss in this thread). I am not taking anything personally, just generally as sides do seem to have formed.

I have made monumental efforts to discuss this subject objectively. It has been said that being encouraging would be better than instilling guilt. Instilling guilt was never my intention, and I will point out again: guilt comes from within, not without. Just as you cannot disempower someone else.

Let me just say that I did not think it was necessary to treat you all with kid gloves. You are not the sleeping masses. I thought we could discuss this subject without the typical hyper-sensitive reactions. I apologize now, for any insensitivity, or hurts I may have caused.

I feel at this point my participation has become nonproductive. I feel I have been repeatedly ignored and misrepresented. I don't know how to rectify this, other than repeat continually.

I want to thank those for their willingness to discuss the topic. I have nothing more to say at this point. I may jump back in at a later time perhaps. I wish you all the very best.