Respecting the Free Will of Dogs?

[Monica]

I'm a bit confused as to how to apply the concept of respecting the free will of others to children and pets (particularly dogs, since cats are so independent and easy to deal with I don't see it as an issue...cats demand that their free will be respected whether we want to or not!).

I raised my son as a free spirit...I was more of a friend than an authority. My husband had no trouble being authoritative, but whenever I tried it, I failed miserably! It was difficult for me, and my son never responded to it...in fact, the more authoritative we were, the more trouble we had. He responded best when he understood what we wanted (and agreed with it).

Now that my son is grown up, I'm finding a repeat of the same issues I had with him...in my relationship with my dog!

I'd always been a cat person...was never around dogs until I got a Lab for my son 16 years ago. That dog was easy - he loved to get my approval, so I never had any problems with him.

Later, we got Schipperkes...they are extremely intelligent and independent. They are affectionately known as 'little black devils' !!!

My first 2 Schips were also easy. They respect and adore me. But, 2 years ago we acquired another Schip (another rescue like the others) who has a much more dominant disposition.

This little guy is continually challenging the older male. But he loves to snuggle in my lap so I thought we were cool.

Well, it turns out that I had just been lucky the past 2 years, in that I hadn't ever asked him to do something he really didn't want to do! A few weeks ago that ended. I wanted him to go outside and he didn't want to, and he challenged me very aggressively!

He crossed a line! I can't have dogs biting family members! So I started doing my homework. I found an excellent dog training site that says I had neglected to establish pack rank. Had he respected me as pack leader, this wouldn't have happened.

Evidently, dogs have an instinctive need to either be dominated or to dominate.

Hellllooo does this sound familiar?

Doesn't this describe the STS path???

Say, what? No wonder I've always been a cat person!

I'm NOT saying dogs are STS! Far from it! I absolutely love my little pack of adorable, affectionate, yet feisty Schipperkes (just as I loved my Lab). And I know they love me! What really blew my mind was that this dog training expert (who trained police dogs for many years) says that dogs can love us while not respecting us.

Hmmm...my hubby thinks I didn't quite 'get it right' with my son, and now am being given another chance to earn respect as well as love!

My question is: How does this fit in with the Law of One concept of Free Will? Are we to honor the free will of our those other-selves who are on their way to 3D? I had always disliked the idea of training my dogs to the point where they do every little thing I ask of them...that has always seemed so...well, dominating! So STS! I thought that if I allowed my dogs more freedom and independence, they might make better humans when they graduate to 3D!

But now I learn that the very concept of honoring the free will of others and allowing independence doesn't work with dogs. We might get away with it if the dog doesn't have a dominant disposition (as I got away with it all these years), but with a dominant dog, such an approach is asking for trouble. Schipperkes, for example, though small, can be very fierce! They absolutely must be managed.

So, here I am ordering my beloved dog around, keeping him tethered to me so he has no freedom, making him submit whenever he wants anything, etc. Ugh! I'm not enjoying this at all! The tethering part is supposedly temporary, to establish pack rank, but the status must be maintained. He must know in no uncertain terms who's the boss!

Children, too, obviously need discipline. I struggled with that when my son was little and I still don't completely comprehend how to balance necessary discipline with the respect of free will.

What could be the purpose of this catalyst I have attracted? Why isn't this dog easy-going like my other dogs? What is the value of my being forced to learn to be controlling and dominating to a small degree?

Thanks for listening!

[ayadew]

This is a difficult question.
Can you make him understand that you don't want his aggresive behaviour? Forcing rules upon someone won't make him understand. Understanding is permitting, forcing is controlling.
It's easy enough to forgive people for their personality if you can separate yourself from their harming intensity, but your pet is another matter.

I think dogs are quite fine with being forced though, as they are not cats and not very close (as cats) to understanding/piercing to the 3rd density where free will is truly gained. He wants to force you, I don't think you'll do him a disservice in a little forcing. Perhaps that is even what he wishes.
See if you can try to understand him further before doing anything drastic.

[fairyfarmgirl]

Establishing pack placing is akin to making boundaries... just as you would not allow a person to bite and kick and punch you because "it was their freewill to do so" you do not allow a child or dog to do this either.

Establishing dominence is establishing leadership in a pack mentality which dogs have... The same happens in a Pride of Cats as well... in any group dynamics--- leaders emerge and followers emerge as well.

You dog is what is called submissive aggressive. They submit so they can aggress... this is also called manipulation.

I like the Dog Whisperer myself... google him he is amazing with Dogs and people.

Unless you wish your dog to be in charge of you... it would be best to establish some boundaries and standards of behavior. This is indeed very STO. Dogs are loyal and love unconditionally when not overcome with anxiety and fear as to what their "place" is. Make a place in your pack for your dog and the dog will respond in kind.

Also, learn to speak dog... it consists of tail positions, nose snuffling, eye flicks, eyebrow knitting, mouthing, ear positions and posture as well as bark vocalizations. Read the Dog and respond with some staring and growling to put the dog in its "place." This is akin to saying you do not do that it is not acceptable Dog behavior.

I once had an aggressive hunting Dog who I trained and communicated with using Dog language and human word commands... she was never aggressive after I made it clear that I was the leader and she was my companion... not the other way around.

Love--
fairyfarmgirl

[Peregrinus]

I whisper horses, but
I only train dogs (not a dog whisperer), though
the dynamics of all pack animals is the same. There must be a pack leader and a pecking order, as it were.

I agree with fairyfarmgirl wholeheartedly. The dog knows exactly what it is he/she desires and understands. It is you that do not (and I mean that in the kindest way, without offense). Since dogs do not speak our language, we must speak theirs. One of the problems that people have with dogs is assuming they think/feel like us. They, until they are that point of being ready for ascension to 3D, most definitely do not. Prior to that, they follow their own set of rules which are much simpler than ours.

My advice to people is always to go and take dog training courses, at least level 1. If you have at least that, your dog will understand you to be the pack leader and will submit. From then on, you will have years of enjoyment with your (submissive to you) friend.

[Questioner]

Evidently, dogs have an instinctive need to either be dominated or to dominate. Hellllooo does this sound familiar? Doesn't this describe the STS path???

Hi Monica, it looks like this thread has gone to the dogs You might need another thread for the kids.

I'm also a fan of Cesar Milan and his TV show, "The dog whisperer" on National Geographic channel. You can also find video clips and articles online. Much of what Cesar teaches is so much easier to understand when you see the same principles used with dog after dog and person after person.

In Cesar's show, occasionally, a very aggressive dog needs to be rehabilitated. In 90% of his situations the solution is really training the people to provide the leadership the dog so much wants to have provided!

I have a substantial essay in my journal about what this all means to me, and I'd like to share it here in segments.

In this part I'll focus on what I've learned from Cesar's show about dogs and how people can actually help dogs by treating them like well-treated dogs, rather than like people! After that I'll respond to your comments about how this relates to STS mentality in people. I think there are a couple of important distinctions worth exploring there, once we see how things work with the dogs.

Cesar teaches that the nature of dogs is to live in packs. Each pack has a leader who determines the rules and leads the pack.

Sometimes there's a need to go hunt, or to protect against threat, or to relocate the pack. The good leader will guide the pack to do these things. When the current situation is fine, then the leader's best leadership is to demonstrate that it's time to relax and enjoy the current safe situation.

This works out well for the survival of the pack, if the pack leader is calmly assertive, and if the leader has a good direction to lead the pack.

Within the direction and rules of the pack, the pack members guide each other by example to follow the rules. Within the leadership and rules, the dogs are free to do as they like.

If the leader is proven to be incompetent, the pack picks a new leader to follow.

When a new dog comes into a healthy pack, it learns by observation and experience. It learns to identify the leader and to discover the rules.

If a dog knows that it doesn't know what's going on, it looks around to find the pack leader to follow for direction. If there is no leader, the dog gets anxious because it apparently has to be the leader. Every pack must have a leader, in a dog's mind. But it has no idea how to make itself a leader with guidance for the humans who obviously, in the dog's mind, are looking for the dog to lead them!

Cesar demonstrates to people that with kindness, they can demonstrate the calm, assertive leadership that makes a dog realize that the dog is not the pack leader, you are. With aggressive dogs, Cesar is only physically forceful enough to restrain the dog's attacks. With out of control or bewildered dogs, he takes them to join his pack. He has a couple of dozen dogs at any time in this pack in a big yard.

The dogs already there help demonstrate to the new dog that there's no need to freak out or to attack. They show by example that Cesar and other calm people are the pack leaders. If the dog owners continue to behave with consistent leadership when they take the dogs back home, the dogs continue to live by the new rules. Hey, the dog seems to say, this is a pack where I get to know what to do, and the rules help me be safe and balanced. Cool!

Dog Whisperer fans, do you feel this captures Cesar's vibe? Am I missing anything important?

This is running a bit long, so I'll divide it here. I'll write my perspective about how this relates to the Law of One in a subsequent post.

[Sacred Fool]

What could be the purpose of this catalyst I have attracted?

Hi, M.

In the lingo I believe this is referred to as "balancing Love with Light."

This topic is taken up briefly in the Ra Material. My memory is that it has something to do with responsibility. Because you are responsible for the child or the pack, you have an obligation to lead the group in safety even though this may infringe upon the free will of your subordinates.

Focusing on the safety and affection, as Q. referred to, might have more appeal to you; but the expectation, as he stated, is that you will provide reassurances (in Dog language) of command and stability.

Have fun.
~p~

Woof!

[Monica]

Thanks for all your comments, everyone!

I had a busy day today, but I will read all the posts and reply tomorrow.

I appreciate all the insights!

[Monica]

Well I finally got a chance to read all the replies. Thanks everyone! All of your comments were very helpful!

I had not heard of Cesar Milan but I will definitely check him out! Just in the last few days since I posted this, I have been studying Ed Frawley's approach at leerburg.com. He trained police dogs including attack dogs so he has a rather stern approach, but wow, already since I've been applying the principles, it has made a huge difference! My dog seems much more content and has not challenged me anymore since I've kept him tethered by my side or in a crate (except for when he's outside of course which isn't all that much). I spent several hours reading his articles and watching his videos and wow, I was doing so many things wrong!! No wonder he challenged me! He was confused!

I guess I mainly wanted some reassurance that I wasn't going to create an negative human when he gets done with his doggie lessons and moves on to 3D.

Ayadew, thanks for this comment, "dogs are quite fine with being forced though, as they are not cats and not very close (as cats) to understanding/piercing to the 3rd density where free will is truly gained" which was a key to my understanding!

I shall definitely learn to speak and whisper dog!

[ayadew]

Please keep us updated monica

[fairyfarmgirl]

Monica:

I am sure that your Dog will most appreciate your efforts! Let me know how well the speaking of Dog goes! ---

Love--

fairyfarmgirl

[Lorna]

good luck monica
i had a similar experience with a fairly old rescue terrier which if i'm honest put me off taking on a rescue dog again
it is a wonderful thing to help a damaged dog find contentment though

[Questioner]

Here is the continuation of my essay about how I relate Cesar's ideas to the Law of One.

The animal part of human nature, the up-from-the-apes part of our constitution, is also a pack animal. I read somewhere that 80% of people essentially have a pack mind. This makes sense to me.

Pack animal thoughts: Who is the leader? Oh, so this pack has a team of alphas, OK, what do they want us to do? Is it safe to give them our unconditional devotion, or must we utterly overthrow them and create a new alpha? (The only two choices for a pack animal.) Now what about the other pack animals, what's up with what the pack likes to bark about now? Where are we all going? How do we all feel about that? Do I need to be anxious about all this?

Certainly seems to me that this describes 80% of our news, entertainment, culture, advertising ("If you're like most people..."), business and daily encounters, doesn't it?

This is not STS, it is pre-choice, awake as an animal but oblivious to a higher potential of truly individual mind that's not defined by the pack at all.

The post-pack person is not a follower, not a pack leader, not a rebel against the leader. Instead, the person who's made the choice is someone for whom the pack animal thoughts are totally irrelevant.

If our mind has nothing to contribute to the situation, then our body can act naturally. If there's a clear need to follow a temporary pack leader, we effortlessly do so. For example, when river rafting, my natural path to survival is to do just whatever Alpha (the experienced guide) tells me. And in my favorite jobs, the boss was Alpha about what to do, I was a skillful Alpha about how to implement my part, other Alphas guided their parts well, and the pack went "woof!" on a regular basis!

An STS-polarized entity has two uses for people with a pack mentality. Until each pack member wakes up to their choice, the pack is easily guided and manipulated. While that can be handy for the alpha in the short term, it doesn't help the "score" of the STS entity. The polarity only increases if a pack member person can wake up to an awareness they have a choice, and then make the choice to give over their free will submission to the STS leader.

This is why all the fear is dumped into our society about the terrible consequences of going our own way. The fear is not needed to control the pack, but it's an attempt to get people to wake up and IMMEDIATELY use their choice to make a voluntary offering of their human status as an obedient slave. At this point the STS entity has captured another piece it can now play as it wishes, on whatever chess game it is working on.

If a pack-member person wakes up to choice and says, I don't need any pack leader at all unless I temporarily choose to join a pack going my way, then the person is free to love, accept, help, and serve whoever they wish at any time. This independence makes it possible to freely choose to serve others with an open heart, or to move on when one can better serve elsewhere, or simply needs some time to rebalance one's own self - without any manipulation of others in the process.

One of the things I love about Carla and Jim's work is that they seek only to make information available, not to create a cult in which they guide the lives of others. I swapped private messages with another member here about another apparently Law of One oriented group that seems to have a hidden agenda. As I see it, without mentioning any names, swirling around the key person in that other group are STS entities who use mixed messages of fear, anxiety, hope and disempowerment to lure in those who can be manipulated into abdicating their free will choices. They seem to be barking up the wrong tree in an attempt to build their own pack who will follow unquestioningly.

[Monica]

This is not STS, it is pre-choice, awake as an animal but oblivious to a higher potential of truly individual mind that's not defined by the pack at all.

WOW!!! Your entire post is very profound and has completely resolved the issue in my mind! THANK YOU!

[ayadew]

Fantastic post Questioner.. thank you. You formulated what I have been thinking for a while, but I couldn't make rational sense of it.
Understanding free will is truly the key of this existence. Then you may accomplish the goal: To see love everywhere and not be bound.

To be free means that you don't stand anywhere.

[Sacred Fool]

I like your LOO correlation, Q., both the STS comments and mentioning that L/L doesn't hype it's wares or press its ideology.

This forum, on the other hand...would you say that the mods are alpha beasts, or more like, say, STO guard dogs? Guardians, maybe?

What would Cesar say about organizational structure of this quasi-cyber-pack?

[fairyfarmgirl]

Thank you, Q! An excellent post! I like how you showed the evolution of free-will and also the sub-game going on of waking up and abdicating freewill... This has put to rest an issue I have been studying for awhile now.

Love--

fairyfarmgirl

[Aaron]

I like your LOO correlation, Q., both the STS comments and mentioning that L/L doesn't hype it's wares or press its ideology.

This forum, on the other hand...would you say that the mods are alpha beasts, or more like, say, STO guard dogs? Guardians, maybe?

What would Cesar say about organizational structure of this quasi-cyber-pack?

In any forum there have to be the mods, able to delete posts in case someone gets drunk and starts posting nonsense. lol Or more seriously, if a hateful or confused person comes along and starts harassing forum members or posting hateful posts...

I don't really see a structure here, and I think that's good. In my opinion, the best wisdom is spread when everyone is allowed to speak freely and openly. That means we get the full benefit of everyone's flowing wisdom, and we are all keeping our ears perked up so to speak for misinformation whether spread on purpose or by accident.

[Questioner]

Thank you for all the positive comments. I had Cesar on the TV while reading some LOO material and I realized they were saying the same thing! I'm glad that this perspective is as useful to others as it's been to me.

This forum, on the other hand...would you say that the mods are alpha beasts, or more like, say, STO guard dogs? Guardians, maybe?

What would Cesar say about organizational structure of this quasi-cyber-pack?

I think Cesar would see it as a group of people who treat each other like people, not like dogs. When Cesar talks with people - his family, crew, clients - he is authoritative about how they should treat the dogs. The main problem he says is when people don't treat dogs like well-treated dogs, but like people. This confuses the dogs since they don't get what they need.

Outside of how to respect the nature of dogs, Cesar offers people equality and acceptance about everything else people do. He respects their nature by treating people like people, just as he respects the dogs by treating them like well-treated dogs. And that's what I see here: people treating each other with respect, as equals.

This is an usual forum in terms of how much people can politely disagree about their opinions, but still respect each other as people.

I've been in other forums that did have aggressive empire-building or groupthink or pack mentalities. I just don't see that kind of behavior here.

I see this forum as a group of fellow travelers, not a pack. The moderators sometimes say things like, "We'd enjoy your company if you would like to share this part of the journey with us. If you wander off that way we think you'll fall off a cliff. If you do prefer to go that way, be aware that we're going this way instead."

Since people are involved, sometimes mistakes are made, of course. But I believe the intention here is sincere fellowship of equals, not the creation of a pack.

What kind of a pack could you build around the Ra materials, anyway? Anyone who sincerely seeks gets the same message, and the message says to think for yourself with love and acceptance and without fear. The message says, no need to make anyone else your guru, alpha leader or God. The message says, the more you are yourself the more that God's evolution is fulfilled.

The people who started sharing this message say every chance they get that they don't want to build any kind of organization, only to share this message.

[Monica]

This forum, on the other hand...would you say that the mods are alpha beasts, or more like, say, STO guard dogs? Guardians, maybe?

What would Cesar say about organizational structure of this quasi-cyber-pack?

Wow. I've been having trouble being Alpha over my 12-pound dog. I can't quite see myself as a cyber-Alpha beast! Peregrine, do you think the other mods and I run this place like a pack?

[Sacred Fool]

This forum, on the other hand...would you say that the mods are alpha beasts, or more like, say, STO guard dogs? Guardians, maybe?

What would Cesar say about organizational structure of this quasi-cyber-pack?

Wow. I've been having trouble being Alpha over my 12-pound dog. I can't quite see myself as a cyber-Alpha beast! Peregrine, do you think the other mods and I run this place like a pack?

No, Monica, I was just trying to draw out the discussion in a way that interested me...using my own quirky sense of humor. No implications intended! I was just being a "Questioner."

I come from a background where it's always good to check in occasionally to re-evaluate one's behavior, though. Maybe you found it helpful...(sorta, somehow)?

[Also--I hope you don't my saying this, but--I think "cyber-alpha beast" has a cool ring to it!]


Thanks, Q., for the thoughtful reply. Social structures are certainly a curious phenomenon, neo-human ones particularly.

[Questioner]

I was just being a "Questioner."

I recommend it.

I think "cyber-alpha beast" has a cool ring to it!

If I start my own forum, maybe I should call myself that instead of just Moderator.

Thanks, Q., for the thoughtful reply.

You're welcome.

[Monica]

I was just trying to draw out the discussion in a way that interested me...using my own quirky sense of humor. No implications intended!

Whew, thanks, that's a relief!