Share your vision for the harvest

[Tenet Nosce]

I guess the question is whether earth is a fruit or a garden.

Bingo. The correct answer is both. But what we are being told here is essentially that the earth, itself, is being harvested. The harvest is immanent. In this special anomalous case, the earth is the fruit. We, being the microbial film living on the surface of the earth, go along with it whether we like it or not. This is what I am saying here. And that is what, I believe, Ra is saying in the material.

Where did this number come from?

Well if the population is not plummeting, then it is either staying the same or increasing. Therefore we would have several billions of bodies needing harvested souls to inhabit them. I don't suppose 3D entities would be given 4D bodies, and so these 4D entities must therefore come from somewhere else.

[Bring4th_Austin]

These are not entities which reached intelligent infinity on this plane, they are entities harvested from other spheres who have come here for 4D experience. During the contact, there were 35,000 of the, and it was a "recent phenomenon," so you can probably guess there are many, many more now. They are 4D entities incarnating into 3D/4D bodies. It is all spelled out in session 63

So you are saying that these entities have already been harvested, and are now being born into 3D earth?

Yes, this is one situation which is not ambiguously talked about in the material. I will supply the references if you wish (they're numerous and won't be easy to compile all together), but in a nutshell, at the point of the contact there were 35,000 dual-activated individuals who were harvested from other spheres and came here to Earth for 4D experience. We can assume that number is much much larger now. They are indeed 4D entities. When Ra says there are entities inhabiting the 4D sphere of Earth, he is talking about these 4D entities which are incarnated into dual bodies.

I compiled this topic a while back as a reference for understanding dual activated individuals and why they're here:
http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthread.php?tid=2544

I'm not sure I see what your point is...it's not something I overlooked...right now is "prior to the complete changeover," and at that moment there were 35,000 4D entities living in dual bodies. That's the point I was making.

... and so after the "complete changeover" nobody will be able to discern that anything noticeable has completely changed? And if so, this plausible deniability of anything having been completely changed will be maintained for the benefit of... whom? I dunno maybe we are just taking past one another here.

No, I never said that, in this particular case we were talking specifically about harvested entities incarnating into an environment such as this, and I wasn't going any further than that. But I see where you're coming from...of course once the changeover is completed, it will be different...completely different, from 3D to 4D. But it doesn't say that changeover happens in an instant. Of course it will end in an instant, and that instant may seem to different from the last, but however long the transition from 3D to 4D is, there will be a great many changes, and they could be seamless (or not).

Here they are one more time.

63.27 Questioner: I will make this statement and have you correct me. What we have is, as our planet is spiraled by the spiraling action of the entire major galaxy and our planetary system spirals into the new position, the fourth-density vibrations becoming more and more pronounced. These atomic core vibrations begin to create, more and more completely, the fourth-density sphere and the fourth-density bodily complexes for inhabitation of that sphere. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is partially correct. To be corrected is the concept of the creation of green-ray density bodily complexes. This creation will be gradual and will take place beginning with your third-density type of physical vehicle and, through the means of bisexual reproduction, become by evolutionary processes, the fourth-density body complexes.

63.28 Questioner: Then are these entities of whom we have spoken, the third-density harvestable who have been transferred, the ones who then will, by bisexual reproduction, create the fourth-density complexes that are necessary?

Ra: I am Ra. The influxes of true color green energy complexes will more and more create the conditions in which the atomic structure of cells of bodily complexes is that of the density of love. The mind/body/spirit complexes inhabiting these physical vehicles will be, and to some extent, are, those of whom you spoke and, as harvest is completed, the harvested entities of this planetary influence.

Please acknowledge that you see these! They're very important.

Yes, I see them!

According to my read, 63.27 is talking about the gradual transition from 3D to 4D bodies concomitant with the transition from 3D to 4D earth. And according to Ra, this transition was already complete in 1981. I acknowledge that use of the word "will" implies a process going on in the future which I am chalking up to being an artifact from an awkwardly worded query. We have to interpret this in light of the quote where Ra says, plain as day, that earth was already vibrating in the fourth density spectrum in 1981.

In time/space, but not in space/time. "63.25. At this nexus the green-ray environment exists to a far greater extent in time/space than in space/time" If your logic holds true, then we are now in 4D bodies, because Earth was 4D in 1981. I'm not quite sure I'm understanding your logic. Ra says that the 4D bodies start as 3D bodies and then evolve to 4D bodies. Do you think this has already happened? Also, here Ra explains how long it will take 4D to become a full reality in space/time, which is probably when the 4D bodies will finish evolving:

40.8 Questioner: Then what will be the time of transition on this planet from third to fourth-density?
Ra: I am Ra. This is difficult to estimate due to the uncharacteristic anomalies of this transition. There are at this space/time nexus beings incarnate which have begun fourth-density work. However, the third-density climate of planetary consciousness is retarding the process. At this particular nexus the possibility/probability vortices indicate somewhere between 100 and 700 of your years as transition period. This cannot be accurate due to the volatility of your peoples at this space/time.

So, this combined with the evolution of 4D bodies shows that our sphere as well as our bodies will gradually rid themselves of 3D and eventually become completely 4D, and the entities incarnating during those times are harvested and incarnating for an early experience.

According to my read, 63.28 also supports everything I have been saying. The fourth-density physical complexes are already being inhabited, and will become, after harvest is completed, the harvested entities of this planetary influence. The harvest will be completed on or around 2011.

Let's hash out 63.28:
The influxes of true color green energy complexes will (will - in the future) more and more create (more and more create-gradually) the conditions in which the atomic structure of cells of bodily complexes is that of the density of love (4D). The mind/body/spirit complexes inhabiting these physical vehicles will be, and to some extent, are, those of whom you spoke (dual bodied individuals) and, as harvest is completed, the harvested entities of this planetary influence

Questioner: Am I to understand that the harvest is to occur in the year 2011, or will it be spread out?

Ra: I am Ra. This is an approximation. We have stated we have difficulty with your time/space. This is an appropriate probable/possible time/space nexus for harvest. Those who are not in incarnation at this time will be included in the harvest.

... or would it be spread out... Don asks. Ra specifically does not say that, yes, it will be spread out. So if, in fact, it IS spread out, this constitutes a MASSIVELY HUGE blunder on the part of Ra. And in consideration of Ra's self-confessed shenanigans of the past, it seems preposterous to presume that Ra would have allowed such a grand error to have been passed along. Surely, Ra did not intend to cause greater confusion.

Harvest and the transition to 4D (Earth and bodies) are very different. This is something Unity points out very often. The transition to 4D is not the act of harvest. It happens at the same time and necessecitates harvest, but "harvest" is the opening of the gateway to intelligent infinity, and the transition to 4D is something that happens with it. "Harvest" will not be the entire transitional period. It will be at the beginning of the transition, and the harvested entities will complete the transition of 3D Earth to 4D.

Those with hybrid 3D/4D bodies will find their 4D body decoupled from their 3D body. To those with no 4D body, it will appear that they have died. To those with the 4D body, it joins the rest of the 4D sphere, already in progress.

Ra states that both 3D and 4D bodies of transitional entities must die in order for them to get a complete 4D body, which will be the result of evolution:

63.14 Questioner: You are saying, then, that for the transition from third to fourth-density for one of the entities with doubly activated bodies, in order to make the transition the third-density body will go through the process of what we call death. Is this correct?
Ra: I am Ra. The third and fourth, combination, density’s body will die according to the necessity of third-density mind/body/spirit complex distortions.

Keeping everybody together drops us right back into the shrinking population conundrum. Or alternatively, we are left contending with where the 7 - 10 billion harvested souls are coming from, and why. Both scenarios are absurd.

Not sure what you mean. It's safe to say that no children being born right now are in strictly 3D bodies, meaning they all have transitional bodies, meaning they're all harvested 4D entities (from other spheres). More dual bodies will continue to be born, all 4D entities. The last 3D entities are in incarnation right now, and once they all die, the world is full of 4D entities incarnated into dual bodies. These entities will bring the 4D sphere from time/space to space/time through ridding space/time of 3D thoughtforms. It's one very likely scenario painted by Ra. I'm not sure where the shrinking population thing comes from, and I don't know what you're talking about contending with other souls.

So, in summary, yes there are certain quotes where the interpretation is up in the air. The wording is ambivalent. We are not exactly sure what Ra meant. But there are other quotes where no such ambivalence is present. Ra said what Ra said. It is plain as day for all to see.

Right, but the quotes we have about the transition from 3D to 4D that say it will take 100-700 years, that 4D bodies will be gradually evolved, and that we have already harvested entities walking among us right now, at least 35,000, but probably much much more than that.

[Tenet Nosce]

abridgetoofar, perhaps I am just really dense. Can you please comment directly on the following two passages? Then I will respond to your last post.

Ra: I am Ra. This sphere is at this time in fourth-dimension vibration

Is this true, or not? Was earth in fourth-dimension vibration as of 1981?

Questioner: Am I to understand that the harvest is to occur in the year 2011, or will it be spread out?

Ra: I am Ra. This is an approximation. We have stated we have difficulty with your time/space. This is an appropriate probable/possible time/space nexus for harvest. Those who are not in incarnation at this time will be included in the harvest.

Am I to understand that you consider Ra's failure to respond to the "or will it be spread out?" portion of the query a simple oversight?

[unity100]

In time/space, but not in space/time. "63.25. At this nexus the green-ray environment exists to a far greater extent in time/space than in space/time"

incorrect - you are missing in between the lines :

its not 'in time space, NOT in space/time', but, it is 'FAR greater extent in time/space THAN in space/time'.

this means, at that point in time, 4d sphere existed BOTH in time/space and space/time, but to a far greater extent in time/space than it existed in space/time.

it means, even in 1981, 4d space/time still existed, even if much scarcer than time/space.

Do you think this has already happened? Also, here Ra explains how long it will take 4D to become a full reality in space/time, which is probably when the 4D bodies will finish evolving:

40.8 Questioner: Then what will be the time of transition on this planet from third to fourth-density?
Ra: I am Ra. This is difficult to estimate due to the uncharacteristic anomalies of this transition. There are at this space/time nexus beings incarnate which have begun fourth-density work. However, the third-density climate of planetary consciousness is retarding the process. At this particular nexus the possibility/probability vortices indicate somewhere between 100 and 700 of your years as transition period. This cannot be accurate due to the volatility of your peoples at this space/time.

you cannot tie transition with evolution of 4d bodies with exactness. what was said that 3d climate of planetary consciousness retarding the process of 4d work. it can be interpreted as when transition is over, there wont be any retardation.

even when transition is complete, 3d thought forms and artifacts will still remain, we are told. these are included in retardation that 3d causes.

Harvest and the transition to 4D (Earth and bodies) are very different. This is something Unity points out very often. The transition to 4D is not the act of harvest. It happens at the same time and necessecitates harvest, but "harvest" is the opening of the gateway to intelligent infinity, and the transition to 4D is something that happens with it. "Harvest" will not be the entire transitional period. It will be at the beginning of the transition, and the harvested entities will complete the transition of 3D Earth to 4D.

lets sharpen it out into precision :

harvest is not related to any kind of transition. it happens without there being any transition.

transition is the situation of a society on a planet adopting into 4d, in body, and in society. or, a 4d society apart from an existing 3d society forming in 4d sphere. this does not need to begin with harvest - if earth society was a more positively oriented harmonious society, the transition and adaptation would already have started with the planet moving into 4d vibrations in 1937. or, if we go as far to say that 3d bodies should not at all do that due to free will and other concerns, at least 3-4d body entities should have been incarnating by then and started creation of 4d bodies.

at this point we can only venture off to say that before the final harvest is not completed and the planet is not determined to be a positive or negative planet, such work cannot be made.

that would not hold true - even before harvest is completed, positive 4d entities were incarnating on this planet into 3-4d bodies. so, what is necessary for any transition to begin is what kind of planet the planet will be in 4d, and maybe availability of green vibrations. (for providing 3-4d bodies with 4d vibrations).

Not sure what you mean. It's safe to say that no children being born right now are in strictly 3D bodies, meaning they all have transitional bodies, meaning they're all harvested 4D entities (from other spheres).

that is an incorrect conclusion in many ways. you cannot put an unharvested entity in a body which can perceive 4d, and also make use of intelligent infinity in ways 3d entities cant.

it not only would override the free will of other entities (even if the inborn 3d entity is a baby yet) in a myriad of ways, but also would cause jeopardy in regard to the overall violet balance and mental stability of the 3d entity due to being able to perceive a density/vibration it is not ready for it yet.

if you look at the act of harvest happening in time space, you will see that it is basically the determination of the violet balance of entity in respect to 4d conditions. if you are deemed placeable in a 4d nexus by your violet balance being able to provide for it, you are harvested.

what you propose, basically totally misses that important information. there would be no need for a harvest if you could just plug a 3d entity in a 3-4d body or a 4d body and subject it to 4d conditions and vibrations.

im totally leaving out the fact that in Ra material it is nowhere even hinted that entities other than already harvested ones being born in 3-4d bodies. not even wanderers were told to be born with these bodies, and actually to the contrary - it is told that wanderers accepted 3d limitations of a body in order to not infringe upon free will and maybe activate higher density bodies and live like gods. this would not change just prior to harvest - the principle of infringement would still stay there.

in conclusion - all entities are not being born with 3-4d bodies. it tramples a lot of important information ranging from free will infringement principle to spiritual basics like violet balance. (which is actually what defines the progression of an entity).

---

17.29 Wrote:Questioner: Am I to understand that the harvest is to occur in the year 2011, or will it be spread out?

Ra: I am Ra. This is an approximation. We have stated we have difficulty with your time/space. This is an appropriate probable/possible time/space nexus for harvest. Those who are not in incarnation at this time will be included in the harvest.

Am I to understand that you consider Ra's failure to respond to the "or will it be spread out?" portion of the query a simple oversight?

they did not just 'not respond to will it be spread out portion of the query' -> they elaborated on THAT date. ' ....not incarnation at this time ......'.

[3DMonkey]

Yes, exactly. An actual spider bite was given the spiritual explanation of a fifth density influence by the mind. Fifth density being = spirit archetype. Spider bite= body archetype. Application of wisdom= mind archetype. Put them all together and we get an allegorical explanation to apply to the complex m/b/s.

I don't think I understand. Are you saying Jim wasn't actually bitten by a spider, or that the spider wasn't actually manipulated by the negative entity, or ...?

Which spirit archetype do you think the fifth-density being represents, and which body archetype does the spider bite represent, and which mind archetype does the application of wisdom represent?

Maybe I'm being too literal here and missing your point.

Just going off memory of the spider situation here

He was bitten by a spider.

I think all the archetypes are included in the process.

I think "a fifth density entity" is one possibilty to describe the interaction with "spirit".

I think what you really want to know is do I think a fifth density entity is a "burglar person" waiting in the shadows for his chance to strike (using his spider-controlling magic spells). No. No I do not. ... And if that imagery works for the individual's understanding, then so be it... Whatever works for them.

[Tenet Nosce]

As I've said before, I really don't know what to expect and wouldn't be surprised by either a sudden or a gradual harvest.

So, based upon your reading of the Ra material, you believe that the evidence is exactly equally weighted on both sides?

Frankly, I'm not sure how much it matters.

If it didn't matter, why would Ra have brought it up? Don asked a question about earth changes, and Ra essentially said forget about the earth changes, let's instead talk about harvest.

Questioner: Can you comment on the coming planetary changes in our physical reality? [Noise of cassette tape being flipped.]

Ra: I am Ra. I preferred to wait till this instrument had again reached the proper state of depth of singleness or one-pointedness before we spoke.

The changes are very, very trivial. We do not concern ourselves with the conditions which bring about harvest.

[Tape gets flipped]

... and then of course we have this:

Questioner: As the cycle terminated 25,000 years ago, what was the reaction of the Confederation to the lack of harvest?

Ra: I am Ra. We became concerned.

[zenmaster]

in conclusion - all entities are not being born with 3-4d bodies.

I definitely agree with this one. I will go further an suggest that only recently harvested 3D graduates are inhabiting these bodies. i.e. no wanderers.

I'll say it again though: when a 3D soul is not offered sufficient catalyst on a planetary sphere due to lack of yellow-ray support, or if it does not have seniority or there is no appropriate physical vehicle, it does not incarnate. This is the meaning of the 3D harvest from one planet to another planet - regardless of cycle.

Local graduates, and those harvested from other systems are now being born into 3D/4D combo bodies. This transitional process will take a few hundred years probably, as per the material - based on how congruent we are with green-ray.

My understanding is that the 'cut off point' for sufficient yellow-ray catalyst is probably 2011-2012, after which time only transitional entities (harvested) will be born.

[Bring4th_Austin]

Going back to a way earlier discussion we had, I was trying to point out the words which Ra says which would leave it readily open for interpretation by anyone. The "probability" and "approximately" are open for interpretation to someone who would wish to still believe in harvest if nothing happened in the near future. "It was just a probability, as well as an approximation." That isn't something that could be argued with, and would simply have to be dismissed on one's own logic. I wasn't trying to say that harvest could last that long, or that the process was that long, simply that it could be argued by someone that 2011, 2012, or anytime in the near future, isn't necessarily the date for harvest.

there is a certain limit which words 'approximately' and 'probability' can accommodate in regard to possibilities. a probability defined as having a time period in between 100 and 700 years, is different from the probability window of something that is told to happen at a certain date, and not be a period that goes over that date.

Ra does not define these limits, so we have to define them ourselves. You define your's more logically than someone who would still be waiting after 50 years, but since the limits are not defined in the material, it is personal judgement. And it would simply be opinion to call that other person's judgement flawed.

- harvest was told NOT to be something that spans a period
- harvest was told to happen IN 2011
- merging these, one can only conclude that harvest would be something that would encompass at most a year, even if it was a period.
- one can at most conclude that harvest would be something that would last at most around a years' vicinity
- one can at most conclude that harvest may happen in 2011, 2010, 2009, 2012, 2013 or similar.
- it is not possible to slap a 900 year period

Do any of these rule out the possibility that harvest happens in a certain moment, but entities incarnated in space/time will not experience it until they die? I think I might have a different idea of what "gradualist" might mean than others. To me, a "gradual" harvest is one that simply allows for the entities within incarnation to die a natural death before they are harvested. So harvest happens, entities not in incarnation are harvested at that moment, and then as the entities within incarnation die, they are harvested...so it only lasts as long as it takes that generation to die. And it's possible that 3D entities were done incarnating years ago, meaning that the last of the pure 3D entities would be gone in less than a life-time. New entities being born would be harvested entities in 3D/4D bodies. That is as gradual as I see the material allowing for. Besides the "probability/possibility" thing, that is the ambiguity I talk about.

Besides the probabilities and approximations, what I am calling ambiguous is the actual mechanic of harvest, as none of us know what it is or how it will happen. We know that a gateway to intelligent infinity is opened. The ambiguous part I see is the fact that it could easily be that it is opened for those entities in time/space, and then all those passing into time/space after that time period will have access to it as well. I'm not denying the possibility that it may happen for those in space/time, but that is not the only possible scenario I see.

that is incorrect. harvest mechanisms were clearly defined in numerous subjects. these range from earth changes, to moving into 4d, to what happens after death, archetypal talk regarding logoic archetypes etc. mechanism of harvest was also explained for pre-veil, and compared with mechanism of post-veil.

I'm talking about what happens at the "moment" of harvest, or when harvest "starts." Basically, the description Ra gives of harvest as the testing to see what incarnation nexus is appropriate. I'm not talking about the mechanisms surrounding harvest, I'm talking about harvest itself and how it is experienced, and whether it is experienced by people in incarnation.

Ra says here "these entities are not a social memory complex," whereas Ra never says "entities within incarnation will be aware of the opening of the gateway, entities within incarnation will be aware of the harvesting, entities within incarnation will immediately be harvested." I (now) realize you've changed your viewpoint somewhat, but I'm still seeing both possibilities, where "harvest," starting instantly and lasting until the last person unharvested person in incarnation at that point dies naturally, only being harvested after death...or harvested instantly from space/time, or somewhere in between.

the above quote makes your issue with not the date of harvest, but the mechanism of harvest and whether it includes death, or not.

The "issue," which it's not an issue at all because I'm not denying that you could very well be right about harvest, is both with the date and whether it includes death or not. I personally feel it's the most likely situation that harvest will happen in the next couple years, or possibly already happened, but that's because of my personal judgement of what Ra means by "approximate" and "probability." The death thing, I don't think it's clear whether something will happen to "force" the harvest of entities from space/time (force them out of incarnation), or allow them to leave incarnation naturally.

if, there was a probability of harvest taking 50 years, that would make harvest an event that is spread over a period, and ra would TELL it. don asked whether it was spread over a period or at a certain date, and the answer was a certain date. i am appalled that we are still discussing this.

Right, I've approached the discussion from the wrong angle because I think I misunderstood what the "gradualist" standpoint was. I never thought harvest itself could be spread out, and 3D entities still incarnate into this plane gaining experience to be harvested. I thought the debate was whether everyone dies AT harvest, or whether everyone dies naturally and then is harvested. Whether instant or gradual, I don't think 3D entities have been incarnating for a while, and I don't think 3D work is still a reason for incarnation on Earth. In fact, I think 3D work is mostly done, and as 3D vibes cease from the Logos, pure 3D entities will have a rough time existing until their death. But whether they'll be forced to die, or die naturally, I thought that was the debate. And that's where I didn't see any clarification from Ra.

I've explicitly seen Tenet address the whole of the "gradualist standpoint" as being caught on some sort of bias, and this is what I was thinking you were agreeing with.

i am agreeing with it. it is explicitly told in the material that harvest is not an event that is spread over a period of time. the transition into a 4d plane/society was told to take from 100 to 700 years with the current probabilities then.

there is indeed a lot of bias surrounding this issue.

as for 'psychoanalysis qualification' or any other concern regarding observing bias, the below sequence i experienced with icaro is sufficient for me - i will just include part of my reply to icaro :

Wouldn't the discussion with Icaro only reveal Icaro's own biases? And isn't it presumptuous in either case to assume you can define these biases? I don't think one case can be applied to the whole other side of the debate.

Like I said, I don't know if I completely understand your new perspective. I tried reading the thread over a couple times...what do you consider "short harvest?" I don't think there's any Ra material to support a harvest that is longer than the remaining lifespan of entities incarnated during harvest, only material which could support that harvest wouldn't start for a number of years, thus not being over for an even longer number of years.

Is the "short harvest" you talk about basically what I am saying? Only long enough for the entities to die of natural causes?

you can go back 2-3 pages and read what i found and what i concluded with my findings. i will just summarize here - if you need pointers and reasoning, you should just roll the pages back :

- as per the major important quote of Ra responding with a certain date to a question that asks whether it was to happen at a certain date or be spread over time, it is definite that harvest is not an event that goes over a years' duration with our year concept. so, harvest should take 365 years the most.

I'm assuming you mean days.

even if possibilities introduced into this, the duration cannot be longer than a year and a half with good probability - if, it was likely to be a period that long, Ra would tell that it would take in between X years and Y years. they did not - they told it was to happen at a certain year. there are no exceptions - Ra gives the period interval when they talk about periods. this basically says harvest will happen in a duration shorter than a year. it also means it is near, very likely in 2011.

What explicitly in Ra is denying the idea that this event that happens will force entities out of incarnation to be harvested? While the major event happens in a moment, and all the entities not in incarnation at that moment are harvested (which is what Ra explicitly stated), and then, as a result of that event, entities leaving incarnation will have the opportunity to be harvested.

- first i had the notion of dying not be a necessity for harvest. however as per the quotes i shared, basing on the wordage used for those who were harvestable and who were harvested, their incarnational status (some deceased, some living, some 2nd cycle harvestables), it seems that dying is a necessity for completion of harvest, EVEN if opening the gateway to intelligent infinity during incarnation is told to be a ticket to next octave of experience. (even surpassing harvest process itself) but, the wordage used for, and the situation of the harvestable and harvested entities, basically tell us that the word 'harvested' requires replacement in a 4d continuum, here or elsewhere - this requires death. previously, i didnt think i was necessary to die for getting harvested. now, i see that the status 'harvestable' and 'harvested' are not used interchangeably. in this light, the phrase 'all are harvested regardless of progress' becomes rather prophetic.

"Regardless of progress" could easily just mean that the entities who have not polarized enough to experience the next density will also be harvested, because they wouldn't have been affected by the first two harvests. Basically it would mean "we take the 3D entities out of here because this ships turning 4D and they can't handle it." Do you feel the only option is that the 3D entities incarnate now are forced out of incarnation to be harvested?

That would be true for this particular statement, but I was referring to posts such as the one stating "A gradualist view is very human-centric," continuing on explaining that gradualists are upset about the idea of death or "leaving someone behind."

it actually is. gradualist view is SO comfortable that, there would not be a rush to increase harvest numbers with that perspective. people would have at least 70 years from the start of the harvest to live, and there would be 100 years to work on increasing the harvest, and 70 of these years would be under the comfortable (!) unhindered instreamings of 4d vibrations.

Comfort was definitely not in my view of a gradual harvest. I figured the 3D entities who had not become harvestable would probably live the rest of their lives in a state of "depression," or scared...their ability to function waning with 3D vibes and 3D thoughtforms. The 3D thoughtforms of our society would be enough to allow them to function in a 4D environment, but unless they'd done some considerable seeking, it wouldn't be a comfortable place to be.

which would bolster any kind of spiritual work or awareness. moreover, the gradualist view also accommodates a great situation in which the existing dynamics and mechanics of life as established are not disturbed in an uncomfortable fashion at all - at most, they 'change' rapidly due to 'fast awakening' of people en masse.

I again thought the "fast" change was a part of the gradualist standpoint. Just not an instant change. 3D thoughtforms and ideas are purged from society in the next 100-700 years, which the 3Ders are long-gone by that point, because none were incarnating even before harvest actually happened. The dual-bodies are left to change society. That was my view of gradual.

Ra very clearly describes that 4D bodies are born of gradual bisexual reproductive evolution. I've tried showing you this quote 3 or 4 times now Sad

the problem with mystery surrounding 4d bodies being gradually born out of normal evolution is, the 4d and 3d being defined as different planes/dimensions. this implies that due to 3-4d bodies being present both in 3d and 4d, they are also undertaking actions in 4d without even knowing. it is possible that their manifestation in 4d, is doing this reproduction in 4d, and creating 4d bodies.

But Ra said starting with 3D bodies, gradually becoming 4D bodies. In a gradual standpoint, they could easily become more and more aware of the 4D plane as they evolve. The body evolution will likely mimic very closely the mind evolution of society. The 4D sphere could seamlessly replace the 3D sphere as seamlessly as bodies evolve. An entity at either end of the transition would notice a major difference.

what leads me to this possibility is the fact that the dimensions 4d and 3d are quite different. there would be a certain point where a body shows more of the 4d features than 3d features, and what would happen at that point in time regarding visibility of 4d, or this and that paranormal phenomenon that is radically different from 3d ? you have a daughter - now you see her, now you dont, is it ?

Would the body be directly related to what the mind perceived? Perhaps an entity could perceive 4D just as well as their "more evolved" daughter, and with each generation 3D is shed a bit more as the societal mind perceives 4D more and more.

however this is an interpretation. 3d-4d entities can stay as much as they want to on this planet and continue reproducing - this is their home planet, their bodies can withstand 4d energies and they dont need to be harvested. others, however, need to be harvested.

Right, in a gradual interpretation this would be done by 3D entities simply not incarnating any more, and once the ones alive today are gone, we'll have seen the last 3D entity till the next round.

- like tenet mentioned, you cant just 'depopulate' 7 billion entities like that. 700 years of transition requires a population decline rate of 60 million.

Why is depopulation necessary? If everyone born now is a 4D entity, and they continue to reproduce as they get older, the population could stay the same as 3Ders die naturally.

- 3d bodies cant withstand 4d. planet will fully align to 4d vibrations soon. this will make 4d a habitable solid sphere. what will happen to 3d entities for the duration of that 700 years of transition if they live here ? dropping like flies due to illnesses and fast death introduced due to randomly interacting with 4d ?

From a gradual standpoint, I would assume they would sustain off of the remaining 3D thoughtforms, and function less well in society as the thought forms are purged.

---

Not sure what you mean. It's safe to say that no children being born right now are in strictly 3D bodies, meaning they all have transitional bodies, meaning they're all harvested 4D entities (from other spheres).

that is an incorrect conclusion in many ways. you cannot put an unharvested entity in a body which can perceive 4d, and also make use of intelligent infinity in ways 3d entities cant.

it not only would override the free will of other entities (even if the inborn 3d entity is a baby yet) in a myriad of ways, but also would cause jeopardy in regard to the overall violet balance and mental stability of the 3d entity due to being able to perceive a density/vibration it is not ready for it yet.

if you look at the act of harvest happening in time space, you will see that it is basically the determination of the violet balance of entity in respect to 4d conditions. if you are deemed placeable in a 4d nexus by your violet balance being able to provide for it, you are harvested.

what you propose, basically totally misses that important information. there would be no need for a harvest if you could just plug a 3d entity in a 3-4d body or a 4d body and subject it to 4d conditions and vibrations.

im totally leaving out the fact that in Ra material it is nowhere even hinted that entities other than already harvested ones being born in 3-4d bodies. not even wanderers were told to be born with these bodies, and actually to the contrary - it is told that wanderers accepted 3d limitations of a body in order to not infringe upon free will and maybe activate higher density bodies and live like gods. this would not change just prior to harvest - the principle of infringement would still stay there.

What I mean is they're all harvested beings. Not 3D souls being born into dual bodies. Why would 3D entities incarnate on Earth right now? 3D work is done. There's no more time for 3D work. What I mean by saying all are born into dual bodies is that no more 3D entities are incarnating on Earth right now, as it would be a pointless incarnation.

[Tenet Nosce]

Questioner: I make the assumption that if maximum efficiency had been achieved in this 25,000 year period the entities would have polarized either toward service to self or toward service to others, one or the other. This would have made them harvestable at the end of that 25,000 year period in which case they would have had to move to another planet because this one would have been third density for 50,000 more years. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. Let us untangle your assumption which is complex and correct in part.

The original desire is that entities seek and become one. If entities can do this in a moment, they may go forward in a moment, and, thus, were this to occur in a major cycle, indeed, the third-density planet would be vacated at the end of that cycle.

It is, however, more towards the median or mean, shall we say, of third-density developments throughout the one infinite universe that there be a small harvest after the first cycle; the remainder having significantly polarized, the second cycle having a much larger harvest; the remainder being even more significantly polarized, the third cycle culminating the process and the harvest being completed.

At the end of the third cycle, harvest is completed, and the 3D planet is vacated. Any questions?

Questioner: Will you give that?

Ra: I am Ra. We paused to scan (name’s) consciousness to use its experiential catalyst as example. We may proceed.

This is one instance and extrapolation may be made to other entities which are aware of the process of evolution... The incarnation was understood to be one which would take place at harvest.

In 1981, whomever Ra was talking about here was already in mid-incarnation, and had chosen to be born such that it would be incarnated at harvest. Not during the harvest time, at harvest.

[Bring4th_Austin]

My understanding is that the 'cut off point' for sufficient yellow-ray catalyst is probably 2011-2012, after which time only transitional entities (harvested) will be born.

What I meant was this cutoff date already arrived, and it is an assumption, because I don't see why a 3D entity would incarnate with only a few years of 3D vibes from the Logos left.

---

Questioner: I make the assumption that if maximum efficiency had been achieved in this 25,000 year period the entities would have polarized either toward service to self or toward service to others, one or the other. This would have made them harvestable at the end of that 25,000 year period in which case they would have had to move to another planet because this one would have been third density for 50,000 more years. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. Let us untangle your assumption which is complex and correct in part.

The original desire is that entities seek and become one. If entities can do this in a moment, they may go forward in a moment, and, thus, were this to occur in a major cycle, indeed, the third-density planet would be vacated at the end of that cycle.

It is, however, more towards the median or mean, shall we say, of third-density developments throughout the one infinite universe that there be a small harvest after the first cycle; the remainder having significantly polarized, the second cycle having a much larger harvest; the remainder being even more significantly polarized, the third cycle culminating the process and the harvest being completed.

At the end of the third cycle, harvest is completed, and the 3D planet is vacated. Any questions?

"IF entities can do this in a moment...WERE this to occur in a major cycle."

Do you think we've done this?

[zenmaster]

My understanding is that the 'cut off point' for sufficient yellow-ray catalyst is probably 2011-2012, after which time only transitional entities (harvested) will be born.

What I meant was this cutoff date already arrived, and it is an assumption, because I don't see why a 3D entity would incarnate with only a few years of 3D vibes from the Logos left.

Understandable, but it's not clear that there are only a few years of 3D vibes from logos left. A substantial amount of the 'logos', with regards to earth, is the sublogos of earth+inhabitants. The transitional bodies will continue developing for centuries perhaps, with 3D vibes supporting their makeup.

[Tenet Nosce]

Do you think we've done this?

Clearly not. And perhaps you missed my previous post:

abridgetoofar, perhaps I am just really dense. Can you please comment directly on the following two passages? Then I will respond to your last post.

Ra: I am Ra. This sphere is at this time in fourth-dimension vibration

Is this true, or not? Was earth in fourth-dimension vibration as of 1981?

Questioner: Am I to understand that the harvest is to occur in the year 2011, or will it be spread out?

Ra: I am Ra. This is an approximation. We have stated we have difficulty with your time/space. This is an appropriate probable/possible time/space nexus for harvest. Those who are not in incarnation at this time will be included in the harvest.

Am I to understand that you consider Ra's failure to respond to the "or will it be spread out?" portion of the query a simple oversight?

---

Now here's a classic!

Questioner: As we begin Book Three of The Law of One there are a couple of questions of fairly non-transient importance that I have and one that I consider to be of a transient nature that I feel obligated to ask.

The first is clearing up the final point about harvest. I was wondering if there is a supervision over the harvest and if so, why this supervision is necessary and how it works since an entity’s harvestability is determined by the violet ray? Is it necessary for entities to supervise the harvest, or is it automatic?

Ra: I am Ra. In time of harvest there are always harvesters. The fruit is formed as it will be, but there is some supervision necessary to ensure that this bounty is placed as it should be without the bruise or the blemish.

If it all just passes quite unnoticeable and without discomfort, then why the concern about "bruises or blemishes"? If life just goes on as before, no big deal, why the need for supervision?

The second class of those who ward this process are those of the Confederation who have the honor/duty of standing in the small places at the edge of the steps of light/love so that those entities being harvested will not, no matter how confused or unable to make contact with their Higher Self, stumble and fall away for any reason other than the strength of the light. These Confederation entities catch those who stumble and set them aright so that they may continue into the light.

Ah, yes, the Confederation has come to make sure that those harvested will not stumble or become confused... as they return back to the normal everyday world, living out their life and dying naturally.

Thus the harvest is automatic in that those harvested will respond according to that which is unchangeable during harvest. That is the violet ray emanation. However, these helpers are around to ensure a proper harvesting so that each entity may have the fullest opportunity to express its violet ray selfhood.

How does each entity harvested have the fullest opportunity to express its violet ray selfhood if tossed right back into the fray of every day 3D living?

[zenmaster]

How does each entity harvested have the fullest opportunity to express its violet ray selfhood if tossed right back into the fray of every day 3D living?

Not sure what you don't understand here. The entity dies, gets harvested, and reincarnates somewhere.

[Bring4th_Austin]

abridgetoofar, perhaps I am just really dense. Can you please comment directly on the following two passages? Then I will respond to your last post.

Ra: I am Ra. This sphere is at this time in fourth-dimension vibration

Is this true, or not? Was earth in fourth-dimension vibration as of 1981?

Well yeah, but that doesn't mean we're living in a 4D reality. The rest of that statement: "Its material is quite confused due to the society memory complexes embedded in its consciousness. It has not made an easy transition to the vibrations which beckon. Therefore, it will be fetched with some inconvenience."

Meaning that just because it exists in fourth-dimension vibration, doesn't mean the plane we experience is 4D. In regards to the topic we were discussing, specifically the "material" of the planet changing from 3D to 4D, Ra says here it is confused, and in other questions he defines its transition from 3D to 4D.

Questioner: Am I to understand that the harvest is to occur in the year 2011, or will it be spread out?

Ra: I am Ra. This is an approximation. We have stated we have difficulty with your time/space. This is an appropriate probable/possible time/space nexus for harvest. Those who are not in incarnation at this time will be included in the harvest.

Am I to understand that you consider Ra's failure to respond to the "or will it be spread out?" portion of the query a simple oversight?

I don't "consider" it anything, I don't think they failed to respond. I consider the idea that "harvest" will occur then in its most significant fashion, the harvesting of entities not incarnated (probably a majority of the entities here), and if it doesn't immediately effect incarnated entities, it will be available to them as they die, naturally or otherwise.

---

Now here's a classic!

Questioner: As we begin Book Three of The Law of One there are a couple of questions of fairly non-transient importance that I have and one that I consider to be of a transient nature that I feel obligated to ask.

The first is clearing up the final point about harvest. I was wondering if there is a supervision over the harvest and if so, why this supervision is necessary and how it works since an entity’s harvestability is determined by the violet ray? Is it necessary for entities to supervise the harvest, or is it automatic?

Ra: I am Ra. In time of harvest there are always harvesters. The fruit is formed as it will be, but there is some supervision necessary to ensure that this bounty is placed as it should be without the bruise or the blemish.

If it all just passes quite unnoticeable and without discomfort, then why the concern about "bruises or blemishes"? If life just goes on as before, no big deal, why the need for supervision?

Obviously won't be unnoticeable in time/space, as one is being harvested. An entity being harvested in time/space may be confused and need supervision. This doesn't have to apply to incarnated entities in space/time...

The second class of those who ward this process are those of the Confederation who have the honor/duty of standing in the small places at the edge of the steps of light/love so that those entities being harvested will not, no matter how confused or unable to make contact with their Higher Self, stumble and fall away for any reason other than the strength of the light. These Confederation entities catch those who stumble and set them aright so that they may continue into the light.

Ah, yes, the Confederation has come to make sure that those harvested will not stumble or become confused... as they return back to the normal everyday world, living out their life and dying naturally.

No, they will continue on into the incarnation they need. If it's a 3D incarnation, they'll go to another 3D planet. If it's a 4D incarnation, they'll incarnate here into a dual body until 4D bodies are formed. Maybe not immediately...they may wait for an appropriate time. The entities in space/time may not feel any effect of harvest until they die.

Thus the harvest is automatic in that those harvested will respond according to that which is unchangeable during harvest. That is the violet ray emanation. However, these helpers are around to ensure a proper harvesting so that each entity may have the fullest opportunity to express its violet ray selfhood.

How does each entity harvested have the fullest opportunity to express its violet ray selfhood if tossed right back into the fray of every day 3D living?

It happens after they die....

---

My understanding is that the 'cut off point' for sufficient yellow-ray catalyst is probably 2011-2012, after which time only transitional entities (harvested) will be born.

What I meant was this cutoff date already arrived, and it is an assumption, because I don't see why a 3D entity would incarnate with only a few years of 3D vibes from the Logos left.

Understandable, but it's not clear that there are only a few years of 3D vibes from logos left. A substantial amount of the 'logos', with regards to earth, is the sublogos of earth+inhabitants. The transitional bodies will continue developing for centuries perhaps, with 3D vibes supporting their makeup.

Right, I just assume that since harvest is near, and the Earth is spiralling into 4D vibes and out of 3D vibes (although sustaining the 3D vibes through thoughtforms, etc), a 3D incarnation would not be appropriate. The dual-bodies will "purge" the 3D thoughtforms and vibrations to create a 4D society. It's a likely way I see the 100-700 year transition going.

[Tenet Nosce]

they did not just 'not respond to will it be spread out portion of the query' -> they elaborated on THAT date. ' ....not incarnation at this time ......'.

Possibly. "At this time" could be read as at the time of the transmission, or at the time of harvest. In other words, Ra could have meant that those not incarnation at the time of harvest would be harvested, or that at the time of the channeling there were those not yet incarnated that will be come harvest time.

Actually, this is a GREAT example of how something could be read in more than one interpretation, without having to assign unusual connotations to words, or change them around in the slightest.

This might throw another monkey wrench into the works, but depending upon the true intention of this statement, it may be necessary to be incarnated in order to be harvested.

That would explain this:

Questioner: Do we have enough time for me to ask if the death, almost immediately after the cessation of war, of this entity could have been so that it could have immediately been reincarnated so that it could make harvest?

Ra: I am Ra. This is precisely correct.

In any case, it is interesting looking back through the material on a search for the word "harvest". Surprisingly, most of the queries are directed toward negative harvests, harvests on other planets, or harvests in other densities. There is actually very little to go on regarding our own harvest. Ah, such is life.

[3DMonkey]

Let us not forget that each moment offers death and rebirth. Again, not to be taken literally.

81.13 Questioner: We have already discussed the Significator, so I will skip number thirteen. The Transformation of the Body is called Death, for with death the body is transformed to a higher vibrational body for additional learning. Is this correct?
Ra: I am Ra. This is correct and may be seen to be additionally correct in that each moment and certainly each diurnal period of the bodily incarnation offers death and rebirth to one which is attempting to use the catalyst which is offered it.

[zenmaster]

Right, I just assume that since harvest is near, and the Earth is spiralling into 4D vibes and out of 3D vibes (although sustaining the 3D vibes through thoughtforms, etc), a 3D incarnation would not be appropriate. The dual-bodies will "purge" the 3D thoughtforms and vibrations to create a 4D society. It's a likely way I see the 100-700 year transition going.

I think it'll be appropriate for many 3D natives, as long as there's sufficient 3D catalyst. 3D vibes, of some degree, will likely be here for hundreds of years. I think the end of the cycle will probably see a significant decline, however, due to newly incarnating harvested entities molding the 'noosphere'. 4D is like a logos for 3D in that there is significant leadership or influence from the higher vibration.

[Tenet Nosce]

Wait, wait, wait. Everybody hold their horses and 3DM hold on to your Tarot deck.

The entity dies, gets harvested, and reincarnates somewhere.

It happens after they die....

On what basis is the claim being made that one must be disincarnate to be harvested?

[Bring4th_Austin]

This might throw another monkey wrench into the works, but depending upon the true intention of this statement, it may be necessary to be incarnated in order to be harvested.

That would explain this:

Questioner: Do we have enough time for me to ask if the death, almost immediately after the cessation of war, of this entity could have been so that it could have immediately been reincarnated so that it could make harvest?

Ra: I am Ra. This is precisely correct.

In any case, it is interesting looking back through the material on a search for the word "harvest". Surprisingly, most of the queries are directed toward negative harvests, harvests on other planets, or harvests in other densities. There is actually very little to go on regarding our own harvest. Ah, such is life.

That conversation regarding Patton was very specifically about the fact that he had not polarized to harvestability within that incarnation. He had to reincarnate to polarize before harvest. That was the basis of this question, not the idea that it was required to be in incarnation to be harvested.

---

Wait, wait, wait. Everybody hold their horses and 3DM hold on to your Tarot deck.

The entity dies, gets harvested, and reincarnates somewhere.

It happens after they die....

On what basis is the claim being made that one must be disincarnate to be harvested?

This is exactly the info that Unity yelled at me for not gathering from the rest of the thread...the fact that one must be not in incarnation, in time/space, to be harvested. Reviewing Unity's posts will give you some answers.

[zenmaster]

Wait, wait, wait. Everybody hold their horses and 3DM hold on to your Tarot deck.

The entity dies, gets harvested, and reincarnates somewhere.

It happens after they die....

On what basis is the claim being made that one must be disincarnate to be harvested?

Horses held - 'woah'. On the basis that a new physical body is required which is formed from 4D material. For a graduate, harvest is a change of vibrational state (density). 4D experience requires a 4D body (or transitional body). For the non-graduate, there is a transfer to same vibration elsewhere.

[native]

It just seems to be that it would be incredibly disabling for everybody to have a population where a small minority have access to "superhuman" powers, while the vast majority does not. I feel like a broken record, having stated something to this effect several times and nobody has really responded. But I think it is an important point which ties directly into the heart of the matter.

As far as telepathy, I intended to mean that I wish everyone had it, or that we were capable at least. When we get a long with someone, click with them instantly, I think there is unrecognized telepathic communication going on. Or some kind of empathetic type occurrence.

[3DMonkey]

Throwing this out there even if you are rubber and I am glue.

I typically side with unity and zen on the idea that death is necessary. But now (with my handy tarot deck), I might be able to see that time/space can be entered metaphorically, especially since death is in every incarnated moment.

Icaro knows

[zenmaster]

It just seems to be that it would be incredibly disabling for everybody to have a population where a small minority have access to "superhuman" powers, while the vast majority does not. I feel like a broken record, having stated something to this effect several times and nobody has really responded. But I think it is an important point which ties directly into the heart of the matter.

Unless the abilities are slowly learned and the potential for them is slowly gained. Also, why is that disabling? What do you think superhuman powers means? Are you thinking about something you saw in a movie or something less imaginary? We're told that there will seem to be a new breed of transitional bodied people. They still have to learn their abilities - that involves discipline and takes awhile, especially in a society that does not teach such things.

[Tenet Nosce]

OK, release the horses! I'm going to go chew some cud for a while and see what I come up with.

[zenmaster]

Throwing this out there even if you are rubber and I am glue.

I typically side with unity and zen on the idea that death is necessary. But now (with my handy tarot deck), I might be able to see that time/space can be entered metaphorically, especially since death is in every incarnated moment.

I have a difficult time imagining a more simple way for a body transition to occur outside of the birth/growth process. Things tend to be simple as far as physicality. Metaphorically, the mind can imagine all kinds of transmutations.

[native]

Throwing this out there even if you are rubber and I am glue.

I typically side with unity and zen on the idea that death is necessary. But now (with my handy tarot deck), I might be able to see that time/space can be entered metaphorically, especially since death is in every incarnated moment.

Icaro knows

I believe death is necessary. My metaphor was used as an explanation to make sense of the controversies over gradual vs. sudden interpretations. So in 2011 or around there, the harvest occurs and continues, while the 3d body continues to go on until death or possibly wariness from 4d becoming stronger. After this death they are harvested.

But yeah, I believe debating gradual vs. sudden misses the point of harvest entirely. The harvest occurring over a period of time as it relates to our experience of time here in space/time, is perfectly reasonable to understand if you grasp the concept of the present moment. Going back and forth trying to analyze what Ra meant is irrelevant when you consider other metaphysical concepts that were given.

---

Zen - He's referring to post #72 that I made back on page 4.

[3DMonkey]

Death is necessary. but what does that word really mean???

My work is done here

---

Throwing this out there even if you are rubber and I am glue.

I typically side with unity and zen on the idea that death is necessary. But now (with my handy tarot deck), I might be able to see that time/space can be entered metaphorically, especially since death is in every incarnated moment.

I have a difficult time imagining a more simple way for a body transition to occur outside of the birth/growth process. Things tend to be simple as far as physicality. Metaphorically, the mind can imagine all kinds of transmutations.

but what "happens" after the body ceases to operate is entirely a mental idea

---

wait, I have "zen clouds" in my head. I'm not exactly sure if you support my post or not. wait, what are ...

[native]

Death is necessary. but what does that word really mean???

My work is done here

---

None of it matters! Live in the present.

[Raman]

Certain conditions bring about the great Harvest and I believe these conditions are dependent on the type of harvest this final cycle will produce. In this case it is a mixed harvest with "lots of heat" being generated due to current planetary conditions.

A little further: 3rd density vibrations disappear (including mind-body-spirit complexes, artifacts, thought-forms, feelings..."this is third-density"). This happens when 3d goes from activation to potentiation.

[AnthroHeart]

Death is necessary. but what does that word really mean???

My work is done here

---

Wow Monkey, you've come a long way. A few months ago you were talking about not being harvestable.