In regards to eating meat

[kycahi]

I will say that, if everyone cut back to 3 times a week instead of 3 times a day, we'd see vast improvements in health and the environment. Not to mention a drastic reduction in violence.

:exclamation: Amen!

[BrownEye]

How does a planet make the jump from 2D to 3D without a 3D population already on the planet? I recall Ra saying that 3D entities instilling love into 2D entities was one way the graduation was made, but not the only way.

19.5 Questioner: When the first second-density entities became third-density on this planet, was this with the help of the transfer of beings from Mars, or were there second-density beings who transferred into third density with no outside influence?

Ra: I am Ra. There were some second-density entities which made the graduation into third density with no outside stimulus but only the efficient use of experience.

Others of your planetary second density joined the third-density cycle due to harvesting efforts by the same sort of sending of vibratory aid as those of the Confederation send you now. This communication was, however, telepathic rather than telepathic/vocal or telepathic/written due to the nature of second-density beings.

I'm well aware of this, it doesn't change the argument. If the trait is already bred into the chicken before it incarnates, if it is indeed choosing to incarnate in that way, it is aware of the trait and accepts it.

It seems to be more automatic rather than choice. Choice becomes more apparent as 3D advances.

Then is the same thing not true about an aphid?

That is one hefty assumption to think that you can give an aphid enough love that it shifts to 3D HA HA!

Anyways, These quotes seem relevant.


9.13 Questioner: Then there were second-density entities here prior to approximately 75,000 years ago. What type of entities were these?

Ra: I am Ra. The second density is the density of the higher plant life and animal life which exists without the upward drive towards the infinite. These second-density beings are of an octave of consciousness just as you find various orientations of consciousness among the conscious entities of your vibration.


13.21 Questioner: Then how does the second density progress to the third?

Ra: I am Ra. The second density strives towards the third density which is the density of self-consciousness or self-awareness. The striving takes place through the higher second-density forms who are invested by third-density beings with an identity to the extent that they become self-aware mind/body complexes, thus becoming mind/body/spirit complexes and entering third density, the first density of consciousness of spirit.
14.1 Questioner: After going over this morning’s work, I thought it might be helpful to fill in a few things. You said that the second density strives towards the third density which is the density of self-consciousness, or self-awareness. The striving takes place through higher second-density forms being invested by third-density beings. Could you explain what you mean by this?

Ra: I am Ra. Much as you would put on a vestment, so do your third-density beings invest or clothe some second-density beings with self-awareness. This is often done through the opportunity of what you call pets. It has also been done by various other means of investiture. These include many so-called religious practice complexes which personify and send love to various natural second-density beings in their group form.

16.19 Questioner: Can you give me some kind of history of your social memory complex and how you became aware of the Law of One?

Ra: I am Ra. The path of our learning is graven in the present moment. There is no history, as we understand your concept. Picture, if you will, a circle of being. We know the alpha and omega as infinite intelligence. The circle never ceases. It is present. The densities we have traversed at various points in the circle correspond to the characteristics of cycles: first, the cycle of awareness; second, the cycle of growth; third, the cycle of self-awareness; fourth, the cycle of love or understanding; fifth, the cycle of light or wisdom; sixth, the cycle of light/love, love/light or unity; seventh, the gateway cycle; eighth, the octave which moves into a mystery we do not plumb.

19.2 Questioner: Let’s take the point at which an individualized entity of second density is ready for transition to third. Is this second-density being what we would call animal?

Ra: I am Ra. There are three types of second-density entities which become, shall we say, enspirited. The first is the animal. This is the most predominant. The second is the vegetable, most especially that which you call, sound vibration complex, “tree.” These entities are capable of giving and receiving enough love to become individualized. The third is mineral. Occasionally a certain location/place, as you may call it, becomes energized to individuality through the love it receives and gives in relationship to a third-density entity which is in relationship to it. This is the least common transition.

20.3 Questioner: So more and more second-density entities are making it into third density. Can you give me an example of a second-density entity coming into the third density in the recent past?

Ra: I am Ra. Perhaps the most common occurrence of second-density graduation during third-density cycle is the so-called pet.

For the animal which is exposed to the individualizing influences of the bond between animal and third-density entity, this individuation causes a sharp rise in the potential of the second density entity so that upon the cessation of physical complex the mind/body complex does not return into the undifferentiated consciousness of that species, if you will.


19.17 Questioner: I assume that an entity on either path can decide to change paths at any time and possibly retrace steps, the path changing being more difficult the farther along the path the change is made. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is incorrect. The further an entity has, what you would call, polarized, the more easily this entity may change polarity, for the more power and awareness the entity will have.

Those truly helpless are those who have not consciously chosen but who repeat patterns without knowledge of the repetition or the meaning of the pattern.

21.7 Questioner: When the 75,000 year cycle started, the life span was approximately nine hundred years, average. What was the process and scheduling mechanism, shall I say, of reincarnation at that time, and how did the time in between incarnations into third-density physical apply to the growth of the mind/body/spirit complex?

Ra: I am Ra. This query is more complex than most. We shall begin. The incarnation pattern of the beginning third-density mind/body/spirit complex begins in darkness, for you may think or consider of your density as one of, as you may say, a sleep and a forgetting. This is the only plane of forgetting. It is necessary for the third-density entity to forget so that the mechanisms of confusion or free will may operate upon the newly individuated consciousness complex.

Thus, the beginning entity is one in all innocence oriented towards animalistic behavior using other-selves only as extensions of self for the preservation of the all-self. The entity becomes slowly aware that it has needs, shall we say, that are not animalistic; that is, that are useless for survival. These needs include: the need for companionship, the need for laughter, the need for beauty, the need to know the universe about it. These are the beginning needs.

As the incarnations begin to accumulate, other needs are discovered: the need to trade, the need to love, the need to be loved, the need to elevate animalistic behaviors to a more universal perspective.

During the first portion of third-density cycles, incarnations are automatic and occur rapidly upon the cessation of energy complex of the physical vehicle. There is small need to review or to heal the experiences of the incarnation. As, what you would call, the energy centers begin to be activated to a higher extent, more of the content of experience during incarnation deals with the lessons of love.

Thus the time, as you may understand it, between incarnations is lengthened to give appropriate attention to the review and the healing of experiences of the previous incarnation. At some point in third density, the green-ray energy center becomes activated and at that point incarnation ceases to be automatic.

Of interest to some of us would be 19.17.

---

There are ways to keep insects away from produce without resorting to killing them. I am actually experimenting with a few of those ways, and hopefully will have invented a new form for use here soon. I will first be experimenting with mosquitoes.

[kycahi]

Here is a thoughtful article that points to scarcities of water and food. It says that new middle classes are starting to enjoy more meat just as the world will run low on the grains to feed the meat animals.

Kinda scary, but at least populations may have to give up meat to live.

I got this from today's Fresh Air, which also had another guy talking about lab-produced meat.

[Monica]

I recently expressed to the universe an interest in keeping honey bees. Two weeks later, after thinking about it a lot and wondering where I could find a starter queen/hive, a hive of honey bees migrated onto my property! (Luckily, completely out of the way of any disturbance.) Now I just need to find the time to learn ALL about beekeeping. I hope they stick around for a while.

I've posted a reply to this in the bees thread.

[kycahi]

Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg:

Every year in recent memory, I've taken on a personal challenge -- something to learn about the world, expand my interests and teach myself greater discipline.…..This year, my personal challenge is around being thankful for the food I have to eat. I think many people forget that a living being has to die for you to eat meat, so my goal revolves around not letting myself forget that and being thankful for what I have. This year I've basically become a vegetarian since the only meat I'm eating is from animals I've killed myself. So far, this has been a good experience. I'm eating a lot healthier foods and I've learned a lot about sustainable farming and raising of animals.

This came from a CNN Money blog.

[BrownEye]

Pretty awesome to see people grow out of old ways.

[unity100]

In the end, I feel much better about reuniting my goat and chicken friends with Spirit, knowing I cared for them and appreciated them their entire life, and knowing they provided their life to continue life.

what a beautiful way to put it.

who wouldnt want to get slaughtered, if it was put into words that beautiful !

and how romantic it is, to be slaughtered by someone who cared for you for your entire life ....

[Bring4th_Austin]

In the end, I feel much better about reuniting my goat and chicken friends with Spirit, knowing I cared for them and appreciated them their entire life, and knowing they provided their life to continue life.

what a beautiful way to put it.

who wouldnt want to get slaughtered, if it was put into words that beautiful !

and how romantic it is, to be slaughtered by someone who cared for you for your entire life ....

Thanks for your (sarcastic) opinion, though it's a rather pointless comment based on the context of the original comment.

Perhaps you could share your point of view on the original context? Slaughter in the garden vs. slaughter of meat animals?

Or possibly explain why you don't feel it's appropriate to recognize the difference between an entity tortured and suffering its entire life vs. an entity cared for and appreciated its entire life? Is it all the same to you, Unity100?

[Nyu]

Re lab produced meat, I saw that somewhere its actually made from human excrement, pressed and dyed to resemble meat fillets *vomit*

[Raman]

We know that Venus supports 5d/6d currently. At one point was supporting 4d/5d....We do not "see" 2d life as we know it now via our telescopes, probes, etc...(or any "life" as a matter of fact)

Earth will be 4d+ activated soon...it would support 1D, 2D, 4D...Not in this particular order necessarily (could be 4d then again 2d although always 1d first)

I am saying this because I do not see how a lion killing a zebra or a killer whale a dolphin or a 4d human (or even dual activated? now 4d environment (maybe) ) killing a chicken or goat....it's compatible with a fully activated 4d earth.

[Monica]

I am saying this because I do not see how a lion killing a zebra or a killer whale a dolphin or a 4d human (or even dual activated? now 4d environment (maybe) ) killing a chicken or goat....it's compatible with a fully activated 4d earth.

Did you mean to say is compatible? Is your intended opinion:

You don't see how it's compatible with 4D Earth

or

It's compatible with 4D Earth

?

Please clarify - thanks.

[3DMonkey]

I think it is difficult to imagine from an egocentric perspective.

4D earth isn't Glory Land. On one hand, we are looking at a new manifestation of a planetary sphere. On anOTHER hand, we are looking at a new way of incarnating and working with the natural energies of the Logos. These two will coexist very naturally. It may help to see that we are naturally existing with 4D and above, today.

[Crown]

After almost 6 months of not eating meat. I decided that it does not really matter and that i do want to eat meat sometimes.

I prefer to eat meat like once a month. I want to have animals that i could slaughter myself. I prefer having to kill a goat than having to buy dead animals from stores.

Dead meat that i know nothing about. No thank you.


So in the end, in my opinion. It does not matter at all if you eat meat or not. What matters is your thoughts (vibration).

[Bring4th_Austin]

We know that Venus supports 5d/6d currently. At one point was supporting 4d/5d....We do not "see" 2d life as we know it now via our telescopes, probes, etc...(or any "life" as a matter of fact)

Earth will be 4d+ activated soon...it would support 1D, 2D, 4D...Not in this particular order necessarily (could be 4d then again 2d although always 1d first)

I am saying this because I do not see how a lion killing a zebra or a killer whale a dolphin or a 4d human (or even dual activated? now 4d environment (maybe) ) killing a chicken or goat....it's compatible with a fully activated 4d earth.

5D does not need to eat foodstuffs cultivated from the 2D sphere, 4D does. 4D, unlike 5D, cannot prepare their own food by thought but still must eat. If 2D is not active when 4D is active, how will 4D eat?

The wild nature of 2D will probably always exist whether or not 4D is fully active. I don't see how 3D going out of activation will have any effect on a lion killing a zebra.

Do you see a 4D human killing bugs and weeds? Why would they choose to kill bugs and weeds over goats and chickens?

Sure there may be some more advanced garden growing techniques when 4D comes around and slaughtering innocent bugs and weeds will no longer be necessary to maintain a productive garden, but I feel like the point is missed on this. How is it more right to slaughter hundreds of innocent creatures to cultivate a garden to feed a few people than to slaughter one innocent creature to produce meat?

[Raman]

I am saying this because I do not see how a lion killing a zebra or a killer whale a dolphin or a 4d human (or even dual activated? now 4d environment (maybe) ) killing a chicken or goat....it's compatible with a fully activated 4d earth.

Did you mean to say is compatible? Is your intended opinion:

You don't see how it's compatible with 4D Earth

or

It's compatible with 4D Earth

?

Please clarify - thanks.

a lion killing a zebra is not compatible with a 4D positive planet, for example

Obviously, 2d is compatible but not the situation above.

This is my opinion.

[Bring4th_Austin]

Raman, I've never viewed the 4D sphere having that sort of influence on the 2D sphere.

Why do you think they're incompatible? Why do you think the 4D sphere will effect the 2D sphere like that?

[Raman]

Raman, I've never viewed the 4D sphere having that sort of influence on the 2D sphere.

Why do you think they're incompatible? Why do you think the 4D sphere will effect the 2D sphere like that?

I do not think green ray is compatible with the suffering of animals in this case or even cutting down a tree to build a house...I don't even think wooden houses are compatible with a positive fully activated green ray/4d pos planet sphere...

[Bring4th_Austin]

Yeah, I can understand the wooden house part, because that would be a 4D entity slaughtering a 2D entity (much like the slaughter of goats and chickens like you said). I'm sure once we develop our 4D abilities this will no longer be necessary.

But I don't necessarily agree with the idea that 4D vibrations are going to change the thought patterns of 2D entities. There will be no suffering of animals on the 4D sphere, but the 2D sphere will still be there, nested within the 4D sphere, doing its 2D thing like 2D spheres do.

---

But the idea of the wooden house part brings another idea to my mind. Vegetarians avoid eating meat because of the slaughter of animals, should they also refrain from using wood in their homes, furniture, etc? We know from Ra that trees have the ability to gain self-awareness, possibly more of a chance than some 2D animals. Isn't supporting the wood industry akin to supporting the meat industry?

[3DMonkey]

From the guy standing in the corner:

the green Ray activation of the planetary sphere is to support fourth density incarnation work. The dynamics of the positive society complex allows green Ray work, but this doesn't make the planetary influence a bubble of green Ray love.

We are not ascending to utopia.


(I edited. I meant does not make the planet a bubble of love. Someone may want to retract their "like" of my post. Thank you, though, always appreciated )

[BrownEye]

But the idea of the wooden house part brings another idea to my mind. Vegetarians avoid eating meat because of the slaughter of animals, should they also refrain from using wood in their homes, furniture, etc? We know from Ra that trees have the ability to gain self-awareness, possibly more of a chance than some 2D animals. Isn't supporting the wood industry akin to supporting the meat industry?

Ideal would be the soil built huts along with "dead wood". Unless you have the skill to use rock. A square wood house is a temporary dwelling. Even Ra has stated that the square form negates energy.

In other countries without the clamp down of law from organized "civilization" it is possible to use available materials rather than cutting down fresh life. This is something fully viable, and what I hope to get to before this country goes on lockdown and I can't leave. The new laws enacted to slow down the ability for americans to leave has been applied to me. Out of 5 in my family I am the only one hit with the passport form demanding all previous addresses, employment history and addresses, timeframes of all addresses, more previous documents showing a picture ID, baptismal record, etc. The kind of form that is mostly impossible for anyone over 20.

---

Re lab produced meat, I saw that somewhere its actually made from human excrement, pressed and dyed to resemble meat fillets *vomit*

They did this in Japan, saying that the testers could not tell the difference between the processed sewage and actual hamburgers. I guess you don't process much of the protein and it just goes into the toilet. They wanted to know that in the case of extreme food shortage they can recover all the wasted protein and still eat.

[unity100]

Thanks for your (sarcastic) opinion, though it's a rather pointless comment based on the context of the original comment.

my pleasure.

the perfect way to picture the situation in this case in its bareness without lengthy text, was sarcasm. i have intentionally employed it.

Perhaps you could share your point of view on the original context? Slaughter in the garden vs. slaughter of meat animals?

actually i have got into extreme depths of this subject in this thread. if you go back and read earlier pages, i think you will find me having told much more than what you asked here, and i think you will also find them radical enough to pique your curiosity.

Or possibly explain why you don't feel it's appropriate to recognize the difference between an entity tortured and suffering its entire life vs. an entity cared for and appreciated its entire life? Is it all the same to you, Unity100?

the ending, is traumatic and contradictory to what had happened before. imagine you were cared by your mother all your life, then suddenly your mother throws you outside one day. even this, is rather a smoothened and politically correct example.

basically you have given +1, then suddenly you have given -1. had you kept on without doing that last act, there would be still, +1 in the relationship. of course, this example is also rather simple, and the numbers are rather irrelevant.

let me put it in a bare emotional context :

im a kid. someone cares for me my entire life, i trust that person with everything, i am happy, then that someone comes and slaughters me to eat me.

.............

this was the plain and emotional approach to this matter. if you look at earlier pages, you will find technical spiritual approaches.

i wont reiterate them here, since we have discussed quite at length and quite in detail. but im sure they will attract your attention, should you check them out.

The wild nature of 2D will probably always exist whether or not 4D is fully active. I don't see how 3D going out of activation will have any effect on a lion killing a zebra.

just look back at the biological history of this planet.

just a few million years ago, there was a totally different biosphere on this planet. much more wild, much more merciless, much more negative, if you compare to current times.

mammal concept is quite a positive concept compared to creatures lying eggs, then leaving them. and the current biosphere is worlds apart in respect to vileness - predating dinosaurs compared to current biosphere. a stark picture.

what happened ?

something, at some point changed. changed so drastically in fact - with the existing biosphere, the 3d body currently in use today on this planet should have been something that would derive from the dominant body base at that time.

however, something has changed - dinosaurs died en masse, and mammals, comparably weak creatures, have become the norm. and a monkey body had become the 3d body from among these.

it is good to remember that Ra had noted that the species, bodies and materials used in them and their interactions with each other, is a choice that happens in a moment's notice by the logos. this means, its rather trivial.


.............

combine this with the information that says 2d is also an octave of consciousness with its own polarities, then you can conclude that totally different, dream-like 2d experiences are possible, as well as nightmare like ones.

so basically, things do not have to stay that way.

---

But I don't necessarily agree with the idea that 4D vibrations are going to change the thought patterns of 2D entities. There will be no suffering of animals on the 4D sphere, but the 2D sphere will still be there, nested within the 4D sphere, doing its 2D thing like 2D spheres do.

you will find that the same specie of cat, when grows in the wild, acts quite different from a cat that grows up in a loving house. to the extent that, even if they are the same species, their facial features differ over time. and in retrospect, a cat taken from outside, previously wild, exhibits a change in not only behavior, but also their facial features over considerable duration of time.

actually, any animal that lives in 3d space, is much more 'civil' than their counterparts living in wilderness. dingos in australia, is a good example.

in addition, 3d ceases being useful for earlier 3d experiences when a planet becomes 4d positive. you think why is that ? if existence of 4d affects 3d, why it shouldnt affect 2d ?

early 3d is very probably the part in which entities are probably learning various behaviors we call 'barbaric'.

[Bring4th_Austin]

Perhaps you could share your point of view on the original context? Slaughter in the garden vs. slaughter of meat animals?

actually i have got into extreme depths of this subject in this thread. if you go back and read earlier pages, i think you will find me having told much more than what you asked here, and i think you will also find them radical enough to pique your curiosity.

I've read, and participated in, the discussions regarding the slaughter of the vegetable and plant food we eat vs. the animal food we eat. This particular discussion had to do with the slaughter of thousands more 2D beings to tend a garden than to slaughter a herd of goats. The discussion basically evolved to a conversation dealing with the net value life of a meat animal vs. the net value life of an insect/thousands of insects/weeds, which was primarily opinion based. I was curious about your opinion on that specific matter, not on the food that we eat.

Or possibly explain why you don't feel it's appropriate to recognize the difference between an entity tortured and suffering its entire life vs. an entity cared for and appreciated its entire life? Is it all the same to you, Unity100?

the ending, is traumatic and contradictory to what had happened before. imagine you were cared by your mother all your life, then suddenly your mother throws you outside one day. even this, is rather a smoothened and politically correct example.

basically you have given +1, then suddenly you have given -1. had you kept on without doing that last act, there would be still, +1 in the relationship. of course, this example is also rather simple, and the numbers are rather irrelevant.

Right, I understand that point. The meaning behind my own comment was twofold: first, having happen upon a bug in my garden I must kill to preserve the garden, I kill it, I'm -1 without the +1. And then, if I raised my animals in horrendous conditions like the current mass meat industry, I'd be -1 (or more like -100) and -1, this is using your system of + and -.

im a kid. someone cares for me my entire life, i trust that person with everything, i am happy, then that someone comes and slaughters me to eat me.

I can understand that blunt view on the matter, but also imagine this: you're a kid, someone treats you terribly your entire life, you live in fear and agony until that person comes and slaughters you to eat you. The comment was in the spirit of this contrast.

.............

this was the plain and emotional approach to this matter. if you look at earlier pages, you will find technical spiritual approaches.

i wont reiterate them here, since we have discussed quite at length and quite in detail. but im sure they will attract your attention, should you check them out.

I will take another look further back in the thread, but in posting what I did, I was careful not to post any redundant views. I really tried to focus on the death of weeds and insects vs. death of meat animals, and I realize that your emotional and technical spiritual approaches could apply to all of these. Perhaps you're not interested in comparing the two, but if you are, I'd be interested in hearing it.

---

I may note, while I understand and agree with your idea of a perfect symbiotic relationship with a fruit tree, the feasability of this regarding certain parts of this specific sphere, specific beings' metabolisms, and specific circumstances, is questionable. But leaving out any specificity even outside of this specific sphere, I agree.

[unity100]

I've read, and participated in, the discussions regarding the slaughter of the vegetable and plant food we eat vs. the animal food we eat. This particular discussion had to do with the slaughter of thousands more 2D beings to tend a garden than to slaughter a herd of goats. The discussion basically evolved to a conversation dealing with the net value life of a meat animal vs. the net value life of an insect/thousands of insects/weeds, which was primarily opinion based. I was curious about your opinion on that specific matter, not on the food that we eat.

i have already understood the angle you are approaching. the question you are posing now, has been posed before in this thread, and i have given lengthy responses to it.

leave aside that question in particular, but many other questions that arise from its corollaries were also discussed, at length again.

this is why i have referred to you earlier pages of this thread in which we had had quite in-depth look into this matter with many people.

I will take another look further back in the thread, but in posting what I did, I was careful not to post any redundant views. I really tried to focus on the death of weeds and insects vs. death of meat animals, and I realize that your emotional and technical spiritual approaches could apply to all of these. Perhaps you're not interested in comparing the two, but if you are, I'd be interested in hearing it.

while looking back at the thread, you will find that much more radical questions were posed, and equally radical answers were given, compared to the question you brought above. when discussing this matter at length, it is inevitable that someone poses the above problem eventually. the curious part is, what happens when people keep discussing in depth after that point.

please have a look at quite earlier pages of the thread. then if you are not intrigued and satisfied by what you find, you can repose this question to me and i will gladly answer.

[Bring4th_Austin]

I'm sorry unity, I just got done going through all the pages and saw only one comment about insects before my own. That was 3DM's comment, asking about if eating insects was also slaughter.

Perhaps it was in another thread?

Or maybe I'm blind. But I looked thoroughly and couldn't find anything.

[Raman]

Yeah, I can understand the wooden house part, because that would be a 4D entity slaughtering a 2D entity (much like the slaughter of goats and chickens like you said). I'm sure once we develop our 4D abilities this will no longer be necessary.

But I don't necessarily agree with the idea that 4D vibrations are going to change the thought patterns of 2D entities. There will be no suffering of animals on the 4D sphere, but the 2D sphere will still be there, nested within the 4D sphere, doing its 2D thing like 2D spheres do.

---

But the idea of the wooden house part brings another idea to my mind. Vegetarians avoid eating meat because of the slaughter of animals, should they also refrain from using wood in their homes, furniture, etc? We know from Ra that trees have the ability to gain self-awareness, possibly more of a chance than some 2D animals. Isn't supporting the wood industry akin to supporting the meat industry?

The wooden house is also a 3d artifact, a 3d thought form and many endowed with 3d emotions. These will have to disappear as well when 3d goes into potentiation.

[unity100]

I'm sorry unity, I just got done going through all the pages and saw only one comment about insects before my own. That was 3DM's comment, asking about if eating insects was also slaughter.

Perhaps it was in another thread?

Or maybe I'm blind. But I looked thoroughly and couldn't find anything.

quite interesting. in this thread, i remember we going down way towards what the attitude of the entity should be towards 1d elements, leave aside gardening and insects ?

maybe it was split ... let me see.

[3DMonkey]

I was wondering today, are plants closer to a social connectedness than 3D?

We know that 1D is elemental, but water is a powerful connected collective in actual existence, an ocean. A forest, a wild field, likewise show apparnet skill in relying on collective efforts, perhaps even less than what an ocean exhibits. The animal kingdom, while still connected, shows apparent less than a forest. Then we get to 3D, a point where we could exist alone, but the preference is to have at least one more, the other. 3D is almost like a pivot point of separation where, into 4D, we begin to act in collective connected manner.

Sorry, I left out the insect kingdom. They are much closer to the plant collectivity than animals.

Relevant? I was wondering if this contributes to our generally stronger emotion for animal flesh, because of it's more independent nature, closer to our independence than any other sub density level.

[zenmaster]

We know that 1D is elemental, but water is a powerful connected collective in actual existence, an ocean. A forest, a wild field, likewise show apparnet skill in relying on collective efforts, perhaps even less than what an ocean exhibits. The animal kingdom, while still connected, shows apparent less than a forest. Then we get to 3D, a point where we could exist alone, but the preference is to have at least one more, the other. 3D is almost like a pivot point of separation where, into 4D, we begin to act in collective connected manner.

The consciousness orientation for each density is inward (me), outward (we), inward, outward, etc. Same thing with the evolution through each subdensity.

[Bring4th_Austin]

I'm sorry unity, I just got done going through all the pages and saw only one comment about insects before my own. That was 3DM's comment, asking about if eating insects was also slaughter.

Perhaps it was in another thread?

Or maybe I'm blind. But I looked thoroughly and couldn't find anything.

quite interesting. in this thread, i remember we going down way towards what the attitude of the entity should be towards 1d elements, leave aside gardening and insects ?

maybe it was split ... let me see.

Ah, yes, I did read that part, where you put forth the (obviously admittedly) radical idea of consuming sand and air for sustenance. It didn't register completely because I didn't see the mention of insects.

I agree with the principle you put forth, but what I guess I didn't see was any practical applications? Given the average as well as the varied extreme human metabolisms, are you aware of any way to sustain off of 1D material?

I think that we are basically in agreeance as far as slaughter of 2D beings goes, that is, a 2D being is a 2D being, whether it's a bug, carrot, tree, or chicken. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Relevant? I was wondering if this contributes to our generally stronger emotion for animal flesh, because of it's more independent nature, closer to our independence than any other sub density level.

Extremely thought provoking, thank you for sharing this idea.

[Monica]

the ending, is traumatic and contradictory to what had happened before. imagine you were cared by your mother all your life, then suddenly your mother throws you outside one day. even this, is rather a smoothened and politically correct example.

basically you have given +1, then suddenly you have given -1. had you kept on without doing that last act, there would be still, +1 in the relationship. of course, this example is also rather simple, and the numbers are rather irrelevant.

let me put it in a bare emotional context :

im a kid. someone cares for me my entire life, i trust that person with everything, i am happy, then that someone comes and slaughters me to eat me.

What I'm about to say isn't directed at anyone personally. I'm particularly sensitive to abridgetoofar because of his current situation - please know that I'm speaking in generalities here. You already know that I consider us on the same team, so to speak, in the grand scheme of things. But unity100 has brought up a very important point that I hadn't thought of before, and it triggered an 'Aha!' moment for me, so I think it's worth exploring.

I don't think a goat has any more inherent value than an aphid, in the Creator's eyes. I have commented before that I think the 2D entity's level of awareness does come into play - not as far as the Creator is concerned, but as far as we are concerned, for the simple reason that, until we are able to sustain ourselves on Sunlight alone, we must establish some sort of guidelines that make sense on a practical level.

We don't really know what an aphid thinks or feels. I have made the argument previously that insects and plants aren't likely to be self-aware, because of their short lifespans and because higher entities don't tend to draw them out. Exceptions may include ancient trees, sacred sites, and maybe even houseplants. But humans tend to think of their vegetable garden as a whole, and aren't likely to single out individual tomato plants and develop a relationship with them, or at least not to the degree that the tomato plants develops sentience. Surely there are exceptions, but I am speaking generally.

This alone doesn't make it 'ok' to kill the tomato plants, or the aphids on the tomato plants. But, in order to make sense of this, we need to think about what is actually happening, not just physically, but emotionally and spiritually, when we kill anything, whether it's an animal, plant or insect.

What happens when an aphid dies? Is it a catastrophic event? Not likely. 2D entities aren't individually aware yet, but they do retain awareness of being One with the Creator. This leads me to conclude that physical death isn't such a big deal to them.

Many psychics who claim to communicate with plant devas and insect kingdoms, have stated that the plants are far, far more concerned about something much less tangible than physical death: humans' relationshpi with them and with the Earth.

Please understand that I'm not in any way suggesting any sort of justification for killing bugs and plants indiscriminately! Quite the contrary! To do so would show extreme disregard for life.

Rather, I am simply reporting back what these 'green witches' have claimed, and what I've accepted as likely true, because it makes sense to me: Lower 2D entities (most plants and insects) seem to have a consciousness that's an extension of Mother Earth, much like the hairs on our heads, rather than as individual entities.

Again, this doesn't make it ok to kill them indiscriminately. But, in comparison to the killing of later 2D entities - cows, chickens, goats - I see a clear distinction.

This distinction has to do with relationship.

What is relationship? Why do we have relationships?

Relationships provide catalyst. We experience catalyst from our interactions with other-selves.

Do aphids experience catalyst? Maybe simple catalyst, like when it rains very hard and they get washed away. But that's not a personal catalyst. To the aphid, that rain is just a force of nature, most likely.

Does the aphid know that humans exist? On an individual level, not likely. So, when the human kills a colony of aphids to protect his tomato plants, those aphids aren't likely to take it personally. That human is, to the aphid, like an earthquake is to us: a force of Nature.

Impersonal.

The aphids roll with it. They move on. Death and rebirth are cyclical, to an entity who has not yet become self-aware. There is no attachment to physical life.

Now let's contrast that with the goat.

Whereas an aphid has no awareness of humans, the same cannot be said of a goat, cow or chicken, especially one who has been cared for lovingly. That goat has a relationship with his human caretaker.

That goat might even have developed affectionate feelings towards his human caretaker, much as a horse, dog or cat would.

Ask any 4H student and he will tell you that his cows, goats and pigs are all very smart, and make great pets! Until the time comes to slaughter them, when the child cries upon learning of the harsh reality of 4H clubs, and on that day becomes hardened, in order to make a better rancher.

That goat most surely is capable of feeling affection, even love. I know beyond any doubt that my dogs and cats love me. I've never had a pet goat, but I see no reason to think that a goat is any different from a cat or dog. Yet, most humans would cringe at the thought of raising their cats and dogs, hugging them and loving them, and then killing them. Such a thought would be viewed as reprehensible.

Why, then, is it any different with a farmer/rancher killing his goats?

While I do appreciate that many farmers and ranchers are seeking to improve conditions for 'meat' animals, it seems to me that they have inadvertently traded one atrocity for anther, by introducing another element into the mix: betrayal.

A factory farm animal's life is torture, and more torture, and it ends in torture.

An animal raised on an 'organic' or 'biodynamic' farm does have it better without a doubt, while alive. But is the death any better?

Maybe it is better physically. Maybe the death is more 'humane' by being more swift. But let's examine the emotional aspects.

The factory farm animal is killed by heartless workers, for the most part. A life of torture ends in torture.

But the animal on the 'humane' farm has been raised to expect...kindness..nurturing...warmth...comfort...perhaps even love.

As unity100 has pointed out, to be killed by the human caretaker is incongruent. It is as if a mother murders her child. It seems reasonable to conclude that a child murdered by the person s/he loved and trusted, might be even more traumatized, than a child murdered by someone s/he knew was cruel.

This is a disturbing conclusion, I realize.

What will the entity imprint on its consciousness, as it evolves towards 3D? What kind of 3D entity will it be, because of the circumstances in which it awakened to self-awareness?

Much as a child can be influenced by his/her parents...the perennial question of nature vs nurture...we surely do influence our younger 2D brethren. We may dramatically affect what sort of humans they will be someday...maybe even whether their 3D reality will be as barbaric as ours...or will it be something better.

Let's consider the repercussions of these actions, in these different scenarios:

An early 2D entity (plants, insects) that was killed by a human has no clue what killed it. To that 2D entity, death was triggered by a force of Nature. No emotional attachment. No long-lasting emotional issues. Just physical death.

A factory-farm raised animal will conclude that life is barbaric and painful, and that it's normal to dominate, torture and kill others. Such an animal will likely be a violent human when he graduates to 3D.

A 'humanely' raised animal will likely conclude that life might be good for awhile, but then, suddenly when you least expect, those whom you loved and trusted, betray you. Such an entity will likely have serious psychological issues when s/he becomes human. S/he may have trust issues...difficulty in forming attachments...difficulty in developing relationships.

Take any random colony of 100 aphids. Whether they die in a rainstorm, or at the hands of the gardener, it matters not to them. They have no awareness of the gardener. The gardener is a force of Nature, just like the rainstorm.

But a goat who was lovingly cared for, then killed by his caretaker, will have a different imprint on his consciousness, than a goat who died of natural causes.

As I stated previously, I do see the value in more humane conditions for farm animals, as a step in the continuum towards less cruelty to animals. In the big picture, such farms do help raise awareness about the atrocities of factory farming.

But, it's sort of a double-edged sword. Such 'humane' farms might actually backfire, in a sense, by providing a sense of appeasement to those who eat animals. "I only eat humanely raised beef, so I have no guilt." Such thinking may neutralize any efforts towards eliminating meat entirely.

Add to this, the realization that was just prompted by unity100's post:

While factory farmed animals have less physical pain during their lives, the 'humanely' raised animals might have more emotional pain, and an equally strong imprint on their psyche, which then carries over to 3D.