04-18-2011, 01:34 PM
This thread is written from the perspective of someone who spent their whole life in Canada and watched alot of U.S. TV, I assume capitalism isn't as bad in Europe, Australia and New Zealand.
Capitalism was invented in a time when people thought resources were infinite, we now know this isn't the case. It's based on the idea that a company can grow forever, but this isn't possible, only cancer can do that. People who defend it like to say: the good lives we have now are a result of it. But can we know that for sure? As we know the technology we have today is mostly the result of wanderers, without which we would still be slaving away as serfs on a farm for 12 hours a day.
What are our alternatives?
I think the best option is The Venus Project as explained in Zeitgeist: Moving Forward http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w but it would be very difficult for an entire country to transition towards that immediately so there would have to be an intermediate step which still allows for the existence of money but which maintains an equality of wealth among all people (e.g. minimum and maximum income) but without restricting individual freedom as much as communism would. I think the ideal balance between Capitalism and Socialism is Social Democracy like what is in place in Sweden and other Scandinavian countries. Lets not confuse with freedoms for a business with freedoms for a human being, forcing businesses to act ethically is not fascism because a business without any regulation is literally a mafia - what Milton Friedman proposed is corporate controlled fascism. The only good businesses do for a country are: they create jobs, and they provide goods and services (though we now mostly get goods from other countries). A business is not concerned with maximizing job creation or providing the highest quality goods and services, they're concerned with maximizing profits. It was once argued they would achieve profits through quality products but this is no longer true with advertising, several companies can try to sell you the same bar of soap by appealing to your emotions and biases rather than providing you with factual information about the soap.
The biggest economic boom in the "Western" countries was between 1945 and 1973 when corporate taxes were high and governments invested in infrastructure. Its well known that the U.S. got out of the Great Depression because of WW2 because of the jobs created - but who paid for those workers? The government. If the government can end a depression by paying people to build things that kill people, they can do the same by paying people to help people - which is exactly why England created the NHS.
What I wonder is this: can a fair government be "forced" upon a society which "isn't ready" for it? I think some would argue a government is a natural result of the consciousness of a society, but I don't think that's true. As we saw in the Metaphysical Democracy thread we all firmly believe theres a large gap between the will of an average citizen who wants a better society and the will of those in power, so saying they'll make changes because a large portion of people who won't even express their opinion want it is ridiculous. My psychology professor said that Abraham Lincoln said something along the lines of: "if we wait for the people to be ready for an end to slavery it will never happen, we must force it" (if anyone could find the exact quote I'd appreciate it). Also Martin Luther King faced opposition from supposed liberal supporters who said "I want African-Americans to be treated equally but why are you getting so many people angry? Why not just wait longer and let it happen on its own?" to which he said something along the lines of "We've waited 100 years, if we don't act it will never happen. I'm only doing do this because I've been left with no other choice, why are you blaming the victims?". Frankly I don't think there's very many people on the planet who would not accept a fairer government where they're taken care of no matter what life throws at them, the only people who wouldn't like it are the rich elites and/or people on an STS path, in which case they can GTFO and move to a country more supportive of their views like Saudi Arabia or the U.S. because as far as I can tell rich people who only care about getting richer are harmful to a society, not helpful.
I think the main thing preventing a better society is mainstream media: it provides very little difference in opinions in large issues, and I don't mean the liberal vs conservative opinion, I mean the liberal-conservative cabal opinion vs the anarchist opinion, socialist opinion, social democrat opinion, libertarian opinion, zeitgeist movement opinion, etc. If our media had the gonads to remember Watergate, the fake Gulf of Tonkin incident, and the lies about WMDs in Iraq and assume politicians are lying rather than telling the truth then instead of the news being: government offical's speech, period; or government offical's speech, liberal opinion, conservative opinion; it could be: what the hell is wrong with our society and how can we fix it NOW? why are we paying attention to these lying jerks who won't do anything good for us unless we demand it? why do we have the money for corporate tax cuts but not for more jobs?
Capitalism was invented in a time when people thought resources were infinite, we now know this isn't the case. It's based on the idea that a company can grow forever, but this isn't possible, only cancer can do that. People who defend it like to say: the good lives we have now are a result of it. But can we know that for sure? As we know the technology we have today is mostly the result of wanderers, without which we would still be slaving away as serfs on a farm for 12 hours a day.
What are our alternatives?
I think the best option is The Venus Project as explained in Zeitgeist: Moving Forward http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w but it would be very difficult for an entire country to transition towards that immediately so there would have to be an intermediate step which still allows for the existence of money but which maintains an equality of wealth among all people (e.g. minimum and maximum income) but without restricting individual freedom as much as communism would. I think the ideal balance between Capitalism and Socialism is Social Democracy like what is in place in Sweden and other Scandinavian countries. Lets not confuse with freedoms for a business with freedoms for a human being, forcing businesses to act ethically is not fascism because a business without any regulation is literally a mafia - what Milton Friedman proposed is corporate controlled fascism. The only good businesses do for a country are: they create jobs, and they provide goods and services (though we now mostly get goods from other countries). A business is not concerned with maximizing job creation or providing the highest quality goods and services, they're concerned with maximizing profits. It was once argued they would achieve profits through quality products but this is no longer true with advertising, several companies can try to sell you the same bar of soap by appealing to your emotions and biases rather than providing you with factual information about the soap.
The biggest economic boom in the "Western" countries was between 1945 and 1973 when corporate taxes were high and governments invested in infrastructure. Its well known that the U.S. got out of the Great Depression because of WW2 because of the jobs created - but who paid for those workers? The government. If the government can end a depression by paying people to build things that kill people, they can do the same by paying people to help people - which is exactly why England created the NHS.
What I wonder is this: can a fair government be "forced" upon a society which "isn't ready" for it? I think some would argue a government is a natural result of the consciousness of a society, but I don't think that's true. As we saw in the Metaphysical Democracy thread we all firmly believe theres a large gap between the will of an average citizen who wants a better society and the will of those in power, so saying they'll make changes because a large portion of people who won't even express their opinion want it is ridiculous. My psychology professor said that Abraham Lincoln said something along the lines of: "if we wait for the people to be ready for an end to slavery it will never happen, we must force it" (if anyone could find the exact quote I'd appreciate it). Also Martin Luther King faced opposition from supposed liberal supporters who said "I want African-Americans to be treated equally but why are you getting so many people angry? Why not just wait longer and let it happen on its own?" to which he said something along the lines of "We've waited 100 years, if we don't act it will never happen. I'm only doing do this because I've been left with no other choice, why are you blaming the victims?". Frankly I don't think there's very many people on the planet who would not accept a fairer government where they're taken care of no matter what life throws at them, the only people who wouldn't like it are the rich elites and/or people on an STS path, in which case they can GTFO and move to a country more supportive of their views like Saudi Arabia or the U.S. because as far as I can tell rich people who only care about getting richer are harmful to a society, not helpful.
I think the main thing preventing a better society is mainstream media: it provides very little difference in opinions in large issues, and I don't mean the liberal vs conservative opinion, I mean the liberal-conservative cabal opinion vs the anarchist opinion, socialist opinion, social democrat opinion, libertarian opinion, zeitgeist movement opinion, etc. If our media had the gonads to remember Watergate, the fake Gulf of Tonkin incident, and the lies about WMDs in Iraq and assume politicians are lying rather than telling the truth then instead of the news being: government offical's speech, period; or government offical's speech, liberal opinion, conservative opinion; it could be: what the hell is wrong with our society and how can we fix it NOW? why are we paying attention to these lying jerks who won't do anything good for us unless we demand it? why do we have the money for corporate tax cuts but not for more jobs?