Bodies, Soul, Karma, Reincarnation

[jafar]

The Mechanism Behind Reincarnation & Ghosts
https://youtu.be/P2EKepe3yao

A very good and simple explanation on the explanation and correlation between Bodies, Soul, Karma.
It's beautifully explained in a simplified manner and in less than 10 minutes by Sadhguru.
And it also correlate well with my own personal experience.

It explained many things that has been in discussion within this forum such as:
- What is Karma and how it relates with body and reincarnation
- Energy bodies
- The mechanism of Reincarnation
- What is Soul
- What is Ghost (a discarnated entities)
- What is the ultimate state a.k.a ultimate enlightenment.
And I love this specific section as he explained it beautifully using a metaphor of air in the bubble.

While Mr Ra 7 densities model I think is an explanation on the 'evolution of planetary consciousness', an explanation from a different angle, a planetary evolution angle. The explanation from this angle will merge in the 7th densities where the ultimate goal is similar. The 'bursting of the bubble' thus a unification of the 'air' confined within the bubble or 'bordered/limited by identification of being inside a bubble' with the all pervasive air.

Air here is a metaphor for consciousness and the bubble is a metaphor for bordered / limited identification, the one that define my/our - self and other-self. The bubble by itself is a form of a 'karmic structure'.

[Ymarsakar]

The prana/chi body sounded familiar to me, but not an energy body.

[jafar]

The prana/chi body sounded familiar to me, but not an energy body.

Energy body is another name for "Prana Maya Kosha", in sanskrit,
It is then shortened as "Prana" bodies, in China it's called the "Chi".

The 7 chakras are the 'organs' / 'part' / 'instrument' on the Prana Maya Kosha layer, the energy body, or the Chi / Prana field, the 'feeling' and 'emotional' layer. And it has two-way connection with the thought / mind layer. The thoughts influence the emotions and vice versa.

[Ymarsakar]

What I mean is that his explanation explains why I never resonated with "energy body". It's a translation issue, as usual, that lost much of the meaning. And body, as he says, is just there for Indians to understand it. They call everything a body

I would call it the "life force state" sorta like water has 3 states of being. (Plasma being 4th)

Hrm... now that I think about it, matter has 3 states in 3rd density, but there is also a 4th state.

[jafar]

What I mean is that his explanation explains why I never resonated with "energy body". It's a translation issue, as usual, that lost much of the meaning. And body, as he says, is just there for Indians to understand it. They call everything a body

I would call it the "life force state" sorta like water has 3 states of being. (Plasma being 4th)

Hrm... now that I think about it, matter has 3 states in 3rd density, but there is also a 4th state.

Make sense, I guess the word 'body' is a reference to 'physical presence' or 'sheathing' of consciousness.
As consciousness is merely one 'point' when it's wrapped by a 'body'.
The 'body' gives the context of a 'here' and a 'now' to the consciousness.

The 'energy' / 'prana' / 'chi' body is the last layer of bodily sheathing which has presence within the 'physical' realm.
Beyond that is 'non-physical', things starting to get weird, as the consciousness gradually lose the sheathing / body wrapping which gives the context of a 'here' and a 'now'. Thus it can be 'anywhere' and 'anytime' including 'multi-where' and 'multi-time'.

But perhaps not yet "all-where" and "all-time", as that can only be achieved when all border / sheathing has been dismantled. A.k.a letting go of all karmic structure. As the layer / sheathing / body is a form of karmic structure.

"You are beyond description. You are beyond all worlds, all space and time. You are perfect. Remember this feeling. Come back again and again to this tabernacle of no time and no space where you are and you are perfect, and there is nowhere to go and nothing to do. For this is the truth about you; beyond all your endeavors and all your suffering this remains the truth of each."
-- Quo

[Sacred Fool]

But perhaps not yet "all-where" and "all-time", as that can only be achieved when all border / sheathing has been dismantled. A.k.a letting go of all karmic structure. As the layer / sheathing / body is a form of karmic structure.

"You are beyond description. You are beyond all worlds, all space and time. You are perfect. Remember this feeling. Come back again and again to this tabernacle of no time and no space where you are and you are perfect, and there is nowhere to go and nothing to do. For this is the truth about you; beyond all your endeavors and all your suffering this remains the truth of each."
-- Quo

Perhaps I'm misreading you, but the way you present this, it sounds like a one way trip when, immediately following that passage, Q'uo very deliberately brings the listener right back to 3D "reality" and talks about going back and forth from this abstracted state to a 3D grounded state where one can do work in consciousness.  Yes?

Personally, I find the state described above by Q'uo requires skillful capacity for narrow band tuning.  It's very easy to go right by it without noticing its subtle presence with built-in your variable frequency oscillator. 
   

[flofrog]

But perhaps not yet "all-where" and "all-time", as that can only be achieved when all border / sheathing has been dismantled. A.k.a letting go of all karmic structure. As the layer / sheathing / body is a form of karmic structure.

"You are beyond description. You are beyond all worlds, all space and time. You are perfect. Remember this feeling. Come back again and again to this tabernacle of no time and no space where you are and you are perfect, and there is nowhere to go and nothing to do. For this is the truth about you; beyond all your endeavors and all your suffering this remains the truth of each."
-- Quo

Perhaps I'm misreading you, but the way you present this, it sounds like a one way trip when, immediately following that passage, Q'uo very deliberately brings the listener right back to 3D "reality" and talks about going back and forth from this abstracted state to a 3D grounded state where one can do work in consciousness.  Yes?

Personally, I find the state described above by Q'uo requires skillful capacity for narrow band tuning.  It's very easy to go right by it without noticing its subtle presence with built-in your variable frequency oscillator. 
   

Isn’t this so true. And we do go past it. I have been twice in presence of someone whom I realized were both gone beyond and in a sense could stay both there, and both grounded in here. A subtle peace, serenity could be felt inside by simply be8mg there with them.

Narrow band tuning, that’s a nice way to say it, Sacred Fool

[Sacred Fool]

Narrow band tuning, that’s a nice way to say it, Sacred Fool

Yep.  And it sounds even better when Ra uses that term.
   

[jafar]

But perhaps not yet "all-where" and "all-time", as that can only be achieved when all border / sheathing has been dismantled. A.k.a letting go of all karmic structure. As the layer / sheathing / body is a form of karmic structure.

"You are beyond description. You are beyond all worlds, all space and time. You are perfect. Remember this feeling. Come back again and again to this tabernacle of no time and no space where you are and you are perfect, and there is nowhere to go and nothing to do. For this is the truth about you; beyond all your endeavors and all your suffering this remains the truth of each."
-- Quo

Perhaps I'm misreading you, but the way you present this, it sounds like a one way trip when, immediately following that passage, Q'uo very deliberately brings the listener right back to 3D "reality" and talks about going back and forth from this abstracted state to a 3D grounded state where one can do work in consciousness.  Yes?\
Personally, I find the state described above by Q'uo requires skillful capacity for narrow band tuning.  It's very easy to go right by it without noticing its subtle presence with built-in your variable frequency oscillator. 

A 'trip' is valid when there's a distance, when it's actually no distance how could there be any 'trip'?

The 'sheathing' and 'unsheathing' can happen multiple times.
That's why Mr Sadhguru even say that the thing that's being named as 'soul' (the non-physical sheathing, the 'athman') is a fiction actually.

Physical Birth for example is a process of 'sheathing'.
Physical Death for example is a process of 'unsheathing'.

After physical death, the mental body and the energy body, depending on the 'strength' of the karma goes on.
If it's very intense, it might linger around as the thing known as 'ghost', until the 'karma' allocated for that life is spent / dissipated.
If it's spent, it then can easily 'find' another body / and start the sheathing process.
Or choose not to put another 'sheathing'...

As for 'capacity', it will all happen naturally, as the 'karma' is a finite conception.
It will be eventually be spent.
How long, depending on the karma that's being accumulated or spent throughout it's progression.
That might be the reason why such state is called "Nirvana", which literally mean "blowing out", like blowing out a candle.

All layer of this 'fictious' body layer is a form of 'karmic structure'.
If the 'karmic structure' is totally dismantled, there is no soul, everything merges into everything else.
Just like the air inside the bubble merged into the surrounding air when the bubble burst.

To get a 'taste' of bliss body or the non-physical existence, even within the 'sheathing' state or 'mantled' state.
Mr Sadhguru also offers a practical advice.
One can start with paying attention to the obvious, like observing your own breath and then observing your own mind.
By doing as such the consciousness shall temporarily dis-identify itself from the karmic structure.

But nonetheless, every identification will eventually dismantle their sheathings, as their karma being spent.
It will also happened naturally.
Thus there is no need to fear that one will not arrive there..
Arrival to that state is a certainty.. how long? that's the question..

[Sacred Fool]

A 'trip' is valid when there's a distance, when it's actually no distance how could there be any 'trip'?

...

Thus there is no need to fear that one will not arrive there..
Arrival to that state is a certainty.. how long? that's the question..

How can you arrive if there is no distance traveled?


I would say that the journey is not one of any distance, but of transformation of consciousness. The higher levels of consciousness are not distant, but neither are they known to the conscious level of self, except one goes through levels of transformation.  And what is being transformed?  Simply, levels of consciousness are being integrated.


Anyhow, as regards all that talk of karmic structures, one element which seems absent from Sadguru-daddy's presentation of basic Hindu philosophical tenets is (not unusually) appreciation for the leela (the play of Creation, of consciousness).  The karmic structures are modalities of creativity and the Creatrix delights in creative design and beauty. 

Put another way, even sheaths can be crafted so as to reflect transcendent beauty as an offering back to the Creatrix.  The Creatrix delights in her creatures reflecting Her beauty back to Her....or so says Q'uo.  (20 FEB 2016, near the end)
  

There is, my friends, in desire itself, a nisus, or an instinctual striving for unity. Love may enjoy the name of this unity at the point at which desire has found its direction. In many cases it would seem as if this direction takes the form of a specific object of that love, takes the form of the beloved. There are many things to love, and it is easy for the soul which is learning to find its way, to flit from flower to flower, so to speak, somewhat harder to discover that there is within a single flower enough reflection of the infinite to occupy a lifetime. One looks into the eyes of the beloved and what does one see but the Creator looking back at one. When the Creator looks back at the creature, the creature may begin to look creatively back at the Creator.

My friends, we would suggest to you that this is the golden moment. To the best of our ability to state the matter, this is the purpose of the creation: that the Creator be given the opportunity to gaze upon itself from a point of view that seems to be not originally present to the self. There is in this thought a depth that we have not plumbed, but there is in this thought a profundity that we have found most inspiring. Therefore, we will say to you that the question that you have posed today is one which is inexhaustible and which must be seen as relevant to the mystery to its very core.

  

    

[Patrick]

Hey that's a great thread ! I've been missing out.

[jafar]

I would say that the journey is not one of any distance, but of transformation of consciousness. The higher levels of consciousness are not distant, but neither are they known to the conscious level of self, except one goes through levels of transformation.  And what is being transformed?  Simply, levels of consciousness are being integrated.

I think the proper word for this is 'focus'.
A good metaphor is like zooming in and zooming out on google earth / map.
An example of such experience:
https://youtu.be/8Are9dDbW24

The observer did not move anywhere he just move his mouse / keypad to set the focus.

The 'sheathing' of consciousness exist like layers, and actually by itself is a virtual sheathing (maya).
The consciousness can shift their focus between layer or on multiple layers.
Observing the breath (energy body) is an effort to focus more on the Pranic / Chi layer.
Observing the mind is an effort to focus more on the Mental layer.

Once the breath or mind has been observed, thus a state of 'dis-identification' will occur, the state of 'focusing out' from those layers to focus more towards the additional non-physical sheathing / layer (The Vijna and Ananda) which some people named as 'soul'. And actually the 'soul' is also 'maya', or 'virtual' / 'illusion'.

Anyhow, as regards all that talk of karmic structures, one element which seems absent from Sadguru-daddy's presentation of basic Hindu philosophical tenets is (not unusually) appreciation for the leela (the play of Creation, of consciousness).  The karmic structures are modalities of creativity and the Creatrix delights in creative design and beauty. 

Put another way, even sheaths can be crafted so as to reflect transcendent beauty as an offering back to the Creatrix.  The Creatrix delights in her creatures reflecting Her beauty back to Her....or so says Q'uo.  (20 FEB 2016, near the end)

The 'sheathing' is a creation that's why it's labeled as "Maya" (Virtual / Illusion). 

And I think Mr Sadhguru never mentioned that it should not be 'appreciated' and I never said that either.

This misconception came from an opinion that "Karma" / "Karmic Structure" is "Bad" / "Evil".
Which is not so, karmic structure is a 'tool' for consciousness to experience things.

What being said is "Karmic structure" and it's layers are finite.
Thus it will be 'spent out', eventually.

Every layer has it's own 'expiration limit', the physical body will expire and so does the other layers (Mental, Pranic etc..)
Thus the advice is, do not attach your-own-self to any of it.
When one is 'attached' thus cannot let go of it's own 'identification' to any of the 'virtual' / 'maya' sheathings that's when 'suffering' occur.

Yet of course appreciate those layers, as those enabled consciousness to experience things.
Appreciate them but do not attached yourself too much to them, as each of those layer have their own 'expiration limit'.

[Ymarsakar]

Basically, work on your breathing.

[flofrog]

[q

Yet of course appreciate those layers, as those enabled consciousness to experience things.
Appreciate them but do not attached yourself too much to them, as each of those layer have their own 'expiration limit'.

Jafar, do:you feel indeed or it’s knowledge that these layers do have an expiration limit and cannot be in fact just integrated ? Just curious...

[jafar]

Jafar, do:you feel indeed or it’s knowledge that these layers do have an expiration limit and cannot be in fact just integrated ? Just curious...

Both are actually correct, it just a matter of perspective.

A 'physical body', whether it's physical body of human, alien or orangutan, is a mass of water, air and carbon.
Once it become 'dysfunctional' it will be returned to universe.
Dis-integrated in perspective of 'functionality' yet 'integrated back' from the perspective of the universe.

The same thing goes for example, star, a star will explode and 'dis-integrated' in the form of Nebula cloud or 'integrated back' in the form of Nebula cloud from the perspective of the universe.
Depending on the size of the star and how it explode, it will either form a new star(s) in the future or a black hole.

But any type of 'construct' is temporary by nature and has an expiration limit. (sanskrit: Maya)
Everything that has a beginning, has an ending.

[flofrog]

Oh I see, thank you... I was thinking of integration not in fact in terms of physical ... so my question was just out of tune... lol

[jafar]

Oh I see, thank you... I was thinking of integration not in fact in terms of physical ... so my question was just out of tune... lol

If it's 'non-physical', then what you mean is 'consciousness'?
For consciousness there's no my consciousness, your consciousness, their consciousness.
It's only consciousness.

Mr Sadhguru uses the metaphor of 'air' for consciousness, there's no my air, your air, their air, there's just air.
We inhale air and then we exhale air when we breathe.
Very rarely we find people who identify the air inside their lung as 'my air'.

It's the 'body' layer which created the border / limit, thus enable the identification and also limitation / border between, my, yours, theirs, also known as 'identification'.

When the 'body' layer being shed or being ignored / disregarded then there's no my, yours, theirs.
Thus in a sense, the consciousness is already integrated and always integrated in the first place.

It's the 'body' layer which make the consciousness seem to be 'not integrated' through the process of 'identification'.
But as mentioned; the 'body' layer is actually 'maya' or 'virtual'.

Mr Ra uses the word 'unity' to describe 'integrated'.
Thus using Mr Ra's lingo, the statement above can also be: the consciousness is already in unity and always in unity.
Then what actually meant by 'unification' is actually shedding or disregarding the border which virtually limit the consciousness. (The body layer) It's the 'border' that's being worked on, not the consciousness, as the consciousness is always in unity.

[Patrick]

A coffee machine has consciousness (on some level).  The poor thing has no choice, since all is consciousness.  Now I believe that you are in joy when you are doing what you were created to do, this includes humans.  In the case of the coffee machine, it cannot really do anything other than what it was created to do.  So it must be in joy at all times really ? Not such a poor thing after all... I'm nearly jealous!  

[jafar]

Now I believe that you are in joy when you are doing what you were created to do, this includes humans.  In the case of the coffee machine, it cannot really do anything other than what it was created to do.  So it must be in joy at all times really ?  Not such a poor thing after all...  I'm nearly jealous!  

How can you know 'joy' without knowing 'despair'?
As once 'joy' is defined so does 'not joy' / 'despair'.

When one define "A" with it's defined limit, it will automatically define "Not A" for things outside it's limit.

The same things goes for other definition such as "jealous", "Poor", "Created", "Humans", "Coffee Machine", "You".

[Patrick]

Right, of course there are no words.  It's just that here I'm not saying it is happy, where unhappy must also exist for happy to have any meaning.  It would seem that joy is something else.

...there will be additional catalyst provided to offer the unmanifested self further opportunities for discovering the self as all-sufficient Creator containing all that there is and full of joy.

...The contact with intelligent infinity is most likely to produce an unspeakable joy in the entity experiencing such contact...

I don't know really.  I just have this notion that the basic condition experienced by the One Infinite Creator even before contrast is JOY.  The contrast only serves to increase the appreciation of this joy.  I have no words for this.  It's just a knowing without knowing.  A seeming paradox.

[jafar]

Right, of course there are no words.  It's just that here I'm not saying it is happy, where unhappy must also exist for happy to have any meaning.  It would seem that joy is something else.

...there will be additional catalyst provided to offer the unmanifested self further opportunities for discovering the self as all-sufficient Creator containing all that there is and full of joy.

...The contact with intelligent infinity is most likely to produce an unspeakable joy in the entity experiencing such contact...

I don't know really.  I just have this notion that the basic condition experienced by the One Infinite Creator even before contrast is JOY.  The contrast only serves to increase the appreciation of this joy.  I have no words for this.  It's just a knowing without knowing.  A seeming paradox.

Then after one is experiencing NOT JOY one now can recognize JOY.
One might be in JOY state previously, but it cannot recognize JOY since it hasn't experienced NOT JOY.

One cannot recognize 'full' before experiencing 'hunger'.
One cannot recognize 'light' before experiencing 'darkness'.

Siddharta cannot recognize 'luxury' while living inside the castle, once he ventured outside the castle and see the contrast he then recognized 'luxury' and automatically the 'not luxury' as well.

Back to "Joy"..
Mr Sadhguru mention a layer called "Bliss Body" in sanskrit it's called "Ananda Maya Kosha". Ananda when translated is close in meanings to "Joy" or "Bliss". Thus Ananda Maya Kosha is close in meanings to Blissful/Joyful Virtual Sheathing.

It's still a 'body', a 'sheating', a 'kosha', a form of 'karmic structure', a containment of 'limited identification' yet it's non-physical. The experience one get from focusing on / through that layer is blissful. As a metaphor it's similar to 'dreamless peaceful sleep'.

[Diana]

Right, of course there are no words.  It's just that here I'm not saying it is happy, where unhappy must also exist for happy to have any meaning.  It would seem that joy is something else.

...there will be additional catalyst provided to offer the unmanifested self further opportunities for discovering the self as all-sufficient Creator containing all that there is and full of joy.

...The contact with intelligent infinity is most likely to produce an unspeakable joy in the entity experiencing such contact...

I don't know really.  I just have this notion that the basic condition experienced by the One Infinite Creator even before contrast is JOY.  The contrast only serves to increase the appreciation of this joy.  I have no words for this.  It's just a knowing without knowing.  A seeming paradox.

I can understand this concept in the following way: Recall being ill with any disease be it a cold, a flu, cancer, or any illness. Now recall when that illness went away, and now you are back to being your "authentic" self with no "illness" distortions pressing on you. You don't necessarily feel anything now in comparison to being sick, except the true, unencumbered you. You are in your natural state, that of being well and your mind and body working as it should be. There is a release, a reopening of all possibilities, while in comparison, when ill, those possibilities are narrowed down to dealing with the illness.

This is how I see the joy Ra speaks of. It is the return to an unencumbered state, where all possibilities are present. The wave state, as opposed to the particle state. I don't think it is necessarily "joy" for an individual or the source of thei creation, as much as it is being in an authentic, unencumbered state of being. The word "joy" I think trips us up because we as humans have assigned human meaning to it.

Another example that comes to mind is when one is out in nature. Imagine being in a meadow. The sun is shining softly and the temperature is perfect. There is a slight breeze that blows across your face and body like a warm caress. Butterflies and dragonflies are flitting by, the sun glinting off their wings. Birds are singing in the branches of trees, whose leaves are rustling delicately, sending dancing dapples of sunlight to the ground. You notice a spotted fawn and its mother nearby, contentedly grazing on the local fauna. You are one with this scene, not needing anything at all beyond being bathed in the beauty of it, the utter stillness and rightness of the confluence of elements that mysteriously blends into such a wordless sense of plenty, of needing nothing, of pure contentment in the moment, so unspeakably full of everything that needs no naming. This, is an example of the joy I imagine, which is the natural state of oneness with everything. Where there is a challenge, because I think we all have experienced what I have described here, is the feeling of oneness with even the darkness. But understanding or apprehending the feeling of oneness with part of reality is a step toward being one with it all.

[Ymarsakar]

"Recall being ill with any disease be it a cold, a flu, cancer, or any illness. Now recall when that illness went away, and now you are back to being your "authentic" self with no "illness" distortions pressing on you. You don't necessarily feel anything now in comparison to being sick, except the true, unencumbered you. You are in your natural state, that of being well and your mind and body working as it should be. There is a release, a reopening of all possibilities, while in comparison, when ill, those possibilities are narrowed down to dealing with the illness.

This is how I see the joy Ra speaks of. It is the return to an unencumbered state, where all possibilities are present. The wave state, as opposed to the particle state. I don't think it is necessarily "joy" for an individual or the source of thei creation, as much as it is being in an authentic, unencumbered state of being. The word "joy" I think trips us up because we as humans have assigned human meaning to it."

One time I got food digestion problems from some broccoli a family member prepared. It was my rest day, and I started taking a nap since I felt lethargic. An hour or so later, I woke up and realized that something was wrong as my energy was being drained at my lower dantien. I didn't want to get up and walk, too much energy use. When I started asking myself questions about it, I soon realized that it was way more serious. I was worried I would have to miss work and need to get my stomach pumped. So I asked for divine help in purging the poisons. Then took a nap for about 30-50 minutes.

When I woke up, I walked to the garbage can and started throwing some stuff up. That was maybe the first time I vomited since very early age and this time I didn't try to stop it. After a few passes, I felt much better, although it took around 2-5 hours before I was completely purified of toxins. By around 8 pm I was ok again.

At the time, my ego mind felt out raged that someone was dangerous enough to endanger us, but my higher self gave me the option of an override. Instead of choosing to feel fear or anger, the reality I had to accept was that the poison was not a threat to me. Not really, once I allowed higher power to purify it. Thus there was no need to get angry at the threat, because there was no threat. The ego was pacified by not suppressing it or ignoring its advice, but by seriously considering whether there are threats and if there are no threats, there is no need to feel anger about anything. At that moment, I felt the vibration of joy and gratitude, because if anybody else had eaten that broccoli, they would be in real trouble. Thus the joy was that I could take the "hit" because I was spiritually tougher than my relative. The vibration then reset back to normal, the joy that surpasses understanding.

The leap of faith into the deep end. It felt very much like a 4.4 initiation test for the heart chakra. Many thoughts from the survival ego chakras I received, such as call for doctors or medicine or something. I chose to rely on my spiritual connection and place my life in the hands of my higher self, aka my god. It wouldn't be the first time nor the last. But that was the last time I was tested that severely for that initiation stage however. I assume I "passed" and thus more was opened to me.

The ego, the lower 3 chakras, was given plenty of evidence that our way was better guided by this power. It had experience and physical proof. Thus there was no conflict as is the case in other selves. The lower 3 chakra ego mind does not understand how it was possible... yet it understands that this power is useful and can be relied upon for survival. It began trusting via faith, in that which is unseen.

[meadow-foreigner]

Body (口): instrument (Newton's Laws);
Soul (心): Spirit, acting (IN somewhere);
Karma (業): momentum (Physics);
Reincarnation (遣り直す): asymptote to the axis of God; Ultimate Perfection (Mathematics);

[Ohr Ein Sof]

Now I believe that you are in joy when you are doing what you were created to do, this includes humans.  In the case of the coffee machine, it cannot really do anything other than what it was created to do.  So it must be in joy at all times really ?  Not such a poor thing after all...  I'm nearly jealous!  

How can you know 'joy' without knowing 'despair'?
As once 'joy' is defined so does 'not joy' / 'despair'.

When one define "A" with it's defined limit, it will automatically define "Not A" for things outside it's limit.

The same things goes for other definition such as "jealous", "Poor", "Created", "Humans", "Coffee Machine", "You".

[quote]How can you know 'joy' without knowing 'despair'?
/quote]
You can not know despair is how you can only know joy. There are very many people who are unaware of the depths of the self and deny that they are this or that. They may know it subconsciously, but consciously, they haven't a clue.
This, that you describe, is one of the steps to balancing the personality. There are many people who cannot even begin to consider knowing their shadow. Therefore, it is possible to only know, by your own level of consciousness, to know only joy and not despair.

[jafar]

Therefore, it is possible to only know, by your own level of consciousness, to know only joy and not despair.

If that's the case then even a finite conception of "joy" will not be defined.
One might experienced it, but it doesn't know that it's "Joy".

As for every 'finite' concept let's say "A", a border / limit is defined, thus it can be deduced that it is "A" or it's not "A".

Continuing what Ymarsakar has described above.
Even the word "Joy" have multiple meanings..

The feeling when one bought a new Porsche car, one may call it "Joy"
The feeling when one bought a new iPhone, one may call it "Joy"

But the word and conception of "Joy" above does not have the same meaning as "Ananda".
Sadhguru gives the metaphor for the feeling of "Ananda" here is the feeling one get when he/she/it experienced a dreamless deep sleep.
While Ymarsakar uses the word of "unencumbered state".
Both words (Ananda and unencumbered state) are close in meanings.

In relative the the description of "Joy" of having bought a new iPhone.
Ananda is not that kind of joy.

[Ymarsakar]

Jafar, I was quoting Deana in "unencumbered state".

So those weren't my thoughts.

If I utilize joy in terms of personal experience it would be "the joy and peace that surpasses understanding".