Feminism is about a 5 year old, thought.

[Merrick]

Dude, you pull out a bunch of old ass quotes from dudes hundreds of years ago, like they matter in the 21st century and use them to argue feminism is needed. No, feminism WAS needed. Women have equality now.

And as for the chalkboard...

It doesn't prove women need feminism because you forgot one important factor in the equation: The utter uselessness and ineffectiveness of your modern feminist. Case in point: Feminists complaining about "rape culture" in college campuses and then insisting we let in refugees from cultures where raping women is commonly accepted. Stupid. But hey, they're sure to fix the problem by giving us all mandatory consent classes so we can learn how to not rape people. Because it's a very confusing subject for the rapist, clearly. Never mind the sexism inherent in these classes, they're stopping rape on campuses... somehow. Yeah, I don't think we need feminists for s***.

I know you are in a lot of pain right now, but lashing out against straw men versions of feminists, not to mention individuals on this board, is not going to lessen your pain and may end up increasing it. Misery loves company so the saying goes, but not the person touched by misery.

[Diana]

Obviously the long-lived patriarchy has produced those who wished to perpetuate it. Combine that with ignorance, greed, all the things Blossom mentioned about our society, and we get a bunch of stupid quotes from insecure men about women (posted by relaxo). I also agree with Blossom that I will not be, respond to, or even acknowledge what anyone thinks I am based on ignorance.

The bigger picture is our need as a race of beings to evolve. As women, I think we must empower ourselves. Waiting for someone to save you rarely works out. And beyond that, as a compassionate being, I help wherever I can. I was on the board once of a shelter for abused women. I had to resign because they treated the women like victims and did not empower them, and I saw no way to work within that system.

It sucks to be on the receiving end of any sort of prejudice or disadvantage. But what to do? Some people are activists, and that's great and necessary. You can fight the injustice, and/or interact with it with an empowered attitude. I've given this example before, but I will repeat it here: When I first started out as an illustrator (freelance) in the late 80s, almost all the art directors and business owners I worked with were male. I set my own prices so equal pay was not a problem (and I might add here that unequal pay is mostly an "employee" problem—so my suggestion is to find a way to do your own thing). There wasn't one meeting I went to where I wasn't hit on by my contact (powerful men at the top). I didn't get angry, or rebuff any of them. I simply got the conversation back on point and never responded to any of the "sexist" comments. I didn't ignore them because I was avoiding the issue. I ignored them because I was not the person they were trying to fit me into, and I saw the comments and pick-up lines for what they were. By not responding to such treatment their ignorance and sexism stayed completely in their own minds and actions, and were not empowered by me.

Yeah, men who were illustrators didn't have to deal with that. But I had a choice: spend time fighting the issue, or change the game by not responding to the power plays. What I definitely did not do was complain about it waiting for someone else to fix the problem.

This issue cuts both ways. By being helpless, it plays right into the sexist game. Don't be helpless. Activism is often necessary for change. But let's not lose sight of the idea that change happens within. 

For example if you dropped by - I could be in a lace dress with steel-cap boots and lipstick using my chainsaw - doing carpentry.

I love this description!

[speedforce131]

Activism is often necessary for change.

Yes activism IS necessary for change but that is no reason to hurt others. Now I may have done so and apologized for it but that didn't happen in a vacuum (meaning that did not happen by itself). Something caused that. I was hurt by your (speaking generally) treatment of me when my intentions were pure and innocent. I was and still am on YOUR SIDE. Willing to listen to you all no matter the vitriol directed towards men.

I know full well what activism is all about. I used to be engaged with Asian activism. I've seen it go both ways. Hate directed towards the outgroup for the oppression and hate incoming from the oppression. I understand that women have their grievances but when I get attacked I think about how hypocritical it all is because white people were and still are a huge part of oppressing Asian people. Who are you to complain when you are at the top of society and you treat us like dirt?

I digress. I'm just going to stop now because there's really no more reason for me to be here.

[Diana]

Activism is often necessary for change.

Yes activism IS necessary for change but that is no reason to hurt others. Now I may have done so and apologized for it but that didn't happen in a vacuum (meaning that did not happen by itself). Something caused that. I was hurt by your (speaking generally) treatment of me when my intentions were pure and innocent. I was and still am on YOUR SIDE. Willing to listen to you all no matter the vitriol directed towards men.

What the heck are you talking about? I think you must be referring to someone else. 

[kristina]

Dude, you pull out a bunch of old ass quotes from dudes hundreds of years ago, like they matter in the 21st century and use them to argue feminism is needed. No, feminism WAS needed. Women have equality now.

And as for the chalkboard...

It doesn't prove women need feminism because you forgot one important factor in the equation: The utter uselessness and ineffectiveness of your modern feminist. Case in point: Feminists complaining about "rape culture" in college campuses and then insisting we let in refugees from cultures where raping women is commonly accepted. Stupid. But hey, they're sure to fix the problem by giving us all mandatory consent classes so we can learn how to not rape people. Because it's a very confusing subject for the rapist, clearly. Never mind the sexism inherent in these classes, they're stopping rape on campuses... somehow. Yeah, I don't think we need feminists for s***.

EP,
You can’t quite say that... added to the crudeness of any quote, relaxo was quoting many contemporary authors anyway.
Norman Mailer saying that a little bit of rape is good for the man.s soul is really impossible to digest when you think of it

I think in the end the incredible physical and mental pain, plus terror,  that a woman will feel when she will be raped is the explanation of feminism.  It is a fact that in most cases a woman ‘s strength will not be enough to protect her..

And you cannot really link to stupidity the fact of rape and the issue of immigration...

Let us agree that feminism like any movement may make errors, but again, think for one moment, even if you are a man, what is the pain of a woman who is raped. Think if it were your mother. Raped in front of you if you were still a child.

Love you EP

I can speak to this having been raped. It is a type of mind bending hell. And though I was very strong, athletic in fact I couldn't get away, I couldn't run fast enough and he caught me. Now, we can all agree this was catalyst but to a 14 year old is was something else. And this is where men and women differ. He was much faster, stronger and over powered me. And this is where I agree with the other side. Nothing was done to him because of the way society was structured at that particular time. I was to blame. Roll that around in your head for 5 minutes. What was done to me took years to understand and forgive. What was done to him, he went back to work the next day.
I do not hold sides either way. Both are valid. Both need to be examined.

[Jade]

I am so sorry, kristina. I have also been raped. I was 18 years old. I'd only been (barely) drunk maybe 2-3 times before. I went to a concert, in fact I was working the door that night and taking money. My friend and coworker was there, and he knew the band. I went to a house nearby for an after party, and on the way there someone noticed one of my headlights was out. I was convinced to sleep over to avoid any potential of getting pulled over while driving home in the middle of the night. I remember chugging from a bottle of scotch. I went to sleep on the floor of a room full of people and I woke up and one of the members of the band had started to have sex with me. I got him to stop and I left as soon as it was daybreak. He proceeded to get my phone number from my coworker and stalk/harass me for over a month afterwards.

And of course, this was my fault for getting drunk, and the good news was that it taught me to never get too drunk around people I didn't know ever again.

[BastionPath]

Clearly defining Feminism is super important I feel.

If it's against men for women, then it's obviously negative.

If it's supporting women in the face of the strength of man, then it's highly positive.

One lowers everyone, while the other complements.

That’s the thing, women are calling for equality. Some (many) men are viewing this as women being against men. We see the same thing with racism in the US. A group comes together to defend the lives of black people who are gunned down by the police, they call themselves Black Lives Matter, and reactionaries are aghast and think that’s some militant call to arms, that only black lives matter, and so come up with the counterslogan “all lives matter”. The elites meanwhile are giddy because people are so easily divided.

If we all stood in solidarity together, instead of fighting for scraps of social status and meager resources, we could make major positive change in this world. Instead we get foolishness like women shouldn’t be cops or feminism is akin to the thinking of a five year old child. Holier than thou defensive condescending men telling women how good they actually have it and it’s men who are the real victims. It’s so predictable that it’s sad.

So what you've done is taken a group. We'll call this group women. Then you combined this group and another group together. We'll call this new third group victims. Then you proceeded to create a discussion about victims. I agree. We should punish the people that aren't victims until they are victims too. Then we can all be sad and mopey together. Unity consciousness we'll call it. It'll be a hot seller.

[David_1]

   To take advantage of another person, or to willingly hurt or use another person, is something I find repulsive.
   My heart goes out to those who were hurt.
   I don’t know if my thinking is valid, but it seems to me that in the grand scheme of lives, unless forgiven no one gets away with anything.  And no act of kindness or compassion is ever forgotten.

[Merrick]

Clearly defining Feminism is super important I feel.

If it's against men for women, then it's obviously negative.

If it's supporting women in the face of the strength of man, then it's highly positive.

One lowers everyone, while the other complements.

That’s the thing, women are calling for equality. Some (many) men are viewing this as women being against men. We see the same thing with racism in the US. A group comes together to defend the lives of black people who are gunned down by the police, they call themselves Black Lives Matter, and reactionaries are aghast and think that’s some militant call to arms, that only black lives matter, and so come up with the counterslogan “all lives matter”. The elites meanwhile are giddy because people are so easily divided.

If we all stood in solidarity together, instead of fighting for scraps of social status and meager resources, we could make major positive change in this world. Instead we get foolishness like women shouldn’t be cops or feminism is akin to the thinking of a five year old child. Holier than thou defensive condescending men telling women how good they actually have it and it’s men who are the real victims. It’s so predictable that it’s sad.

So what you've done is taken a group. We'll call this group women. Then you combined this group and another group together. We'll call this new third group victims. Then you proceeded to create a discussion about victims. I agree. We should punish the people that aren't victims until they are victims too. Then we can all be sad and mopey together. Unity consciousness we'll call it. It'll be a hot seller.

No one said anything about being sad or mopey. I was using an example of a different oppressed group to show how when any oppressed group in the US speaks out for equality, others view it as an attack on them.

[isis]

I enjoy much of what Camille Paglia has to say on the matter.

[David_1]

I desire fairness, love, and compassion toward all. Everyone should have equality of opportunity.
Sadly, some promote discord between men and women so as to cause separation.
I appreciate the video posted above by isis, which hopefully will help readers to think.

[ada]

From a documentary I've been watching called 'Explained'.

https://ihavenotv.com/why-women-are-paid-less-explained

[Ray711]

I've read a number of posts in this thread but not all, so some of these thoughts may have been voiced already. Apologies if so.

I think there are two basic overall problems regarding women's place in society. First is the question of whether women and feminine values are represented and valued in society. The second is whether the masculine side of individual women is recognized and given as much opportunity to shine as the masculinity of men. Personally, I agree with the notion that these two general things are indeed problems that need healing and improving. There's a lot of frustration and anger caused by this, so, more than understandably, it results in behaviors and attempts at trying to fix the situation that are sometimes counterproductive.

I don't think there's a question that human society has embraced masculine values more so than feminine values, arguably to the extreme. If we're to make progress moving into 4th density as a collective, embracing the feminine is absolutely non-negotiable. Third density is perhaps unavoidably masculine at its beginnings. We come from 2nd density, in which beings advance literally by survival of the fittest under the mechanism of natural selection. I say this from ignorance, but given this background, I would venture to say that it is almost impossible for 3rd density societies not to start out as patriarchal to some extent or another. However, if masculinity was the salvation of 2nd density and what allowed us to move into 3rd density, femininity is the salvation of 3rd density and what allows us to move into 4rd density. Later on, as we know, it will be masculinity's time to shine again once it's turn to move into wisdom. But now it has to be about the feminine.

The problem of not recognizing the value of women's masculinity goes hand in hand with the problem of men's femininity not being recognized, which is to say, the problem of gender roles and stereotyping in general. While men in general are different than women in general, each individual man and woman is a unique blend of the masculine and the feminine, and the recognition of the uniqueness that each of us has is also a must if we're to evolve into a more harmonious society.

Like I said, the frustration and anger caused by these problems is 100% understandable. But, although understandable, that anger and that frustration are causing problems of their own; and thus more anger, more frustration. I don't think the ways we're going about solving these problems are the right ones. I think that society is infantilizing women by insisting that they be protected by any means necessary. There's the use of fear to increase the demand for oppressive policies. I think there's also a lot of ignorance or perhaps downright intellectual dishonesty regarding the advantages that women do enjoy and the problems that men do face, which ties directly with the fact that some huge problems such as the suicide rate of men are not even looked at (which in turn is related to the problem of the lack of recognition of men's emotions).

I would even venture to say that in sectors of the progressive movement, compassion has been weaponized (under Orion influence, perhaps?). Someone, somewhere down the road, probably realized that society was starting to become more compassionate as a whole, and thus, they decided to pull strings in order to turn people against each other, as usual. I'm not a conspiracy guy, but when the same mainstream media that has for ages lived off fear porn, political parties, Hollywood and even big corporations are all promulgating the values of political correctness, something is obviously rotten. Freedom of speech has suffered because of this, and that is a loss that we cannot have if we're to truly move into the heart and into a compassionate world, because all viewpoints need to be expressed, and all perspectives given a voice.

Looking at Hollywood in particular, there seems to be a big focus on putting female characters in what are essentially archetypal masculine roles. While this by itself would be a good thing, as it helps in fixing the problem of not recognizing the masculine side of women, it perpetuates the problem of feminine values not having their time on the spotlight. This is precisely also why I take issue with the proposal of simply placing more women in positions of power in government or corporations. The women that would be put in such places would be the most competitive and ambitious of women; women who embody masculine traits, not feminine ones. By ignoring feminine women and the reality that men themselves can be feminine, we would still be denying femininity its voice.

To end this on a much more personal note, as a man who identifies with both masculine and feminine attributes but who probably leans slightly more towards femininity, it is not men or the so-called patriarchy what I've felt the most prejudice from. It's actually been women. A comment that I was once given unironically was that I was "not mean enough". I know that's just anecdotal, but I've personally felt some big disadvantages in my life that I know wouldn't have existed had I simply been born as a woman (of course, had that been the case, I would be facing a different set of problems now). And I'm strongly of the opinion that even masculine men face and have faced since the dawn of history certain issues that I feel are very difficult to voice, because the prevailing narrative is that "women are undeniably more oppressed", and so, if you dare voice any potential disadvantages that men may be facing, you're labeled a crybaby or a loser not worth paying attention to. It is not my intention to say that men's problems are actually bigger than women's, or that we should pay less attention to women's problems in order to focus on men's. But, in my estimation, the insistence on the notions of women being undeniably oppressed and men living under privilege are very harmful ones. It helps women little to nothing, while causing a lot of harm to men who feel that their voice doesn't matter. What I think we should strive for is universal compassion, rather than politically or ideologically motivated "compassion", of which I feel there's a lot these days.

[flofrog]

Compassion and unconditional love are so the keys. Isn’t it wonderful to see in every different entity the myriads of feminine and masculine traits, never the same, always unique to each one. How extraordinary is that when you think of it

[Cyan]

I've read a number of posts in this thread...

Roughly speaking what I feel on the topic.