In regards to eating meat

[Ali Quadir]

Unfortunately the first thing I meet on Joachims page are books by this Jasmuheen lady. She's a known fraud. Her teachings killed 3 followers. When asked about this she claims that it is not her moral responsibility. And that these people were probably not coming from a place of integrity and did not have the right motivation. To be honest she raises the hair in the back of my neck.

Living on air Watch the whole thing, they put her in a hotel and keep an eye on her. She breaks down quicker than I did. Which is logical because I must be twice her weigth and half her age. Her defense is that they put her in a polluted part of the city. But really she's having the normal starvation reaction. And this was verified by a doctor.

I cannot put my faith in this. Certainly not in people like her. Discernment is vitally important. And one of the things it means is that we don't believe something just because it feels right.

I'm this guy from another planet who believes in our individual ability to perform miracles. I have no difficulty whatsoever accepting the realities of telepathy, telekinesis and our energy bodies, including healing done on those bodies. I'm so nutty I've got nuts to hand round... But even with the best intentions I cannot believe in this.

It was not my intent to stop eating permanently. I just wanted to see what would happen to me if I stopped eating. I never expected this to be permanent. More like exploration. The thing I learned is that it's not as hard as it seems, the process of breaking down is much more gradual than I expected. Apart from a slight physical weakness, the fog in my head and the obviously expected feelings of hunger the first few days I had no symptoms. And the thing I liked is that it puts your mind in a predatory mode. It would be much easier and enjoyable to go hunting when you're hungry than when you're stuffed. Apparently we're wired to survive.

You clearly see the exercises as important. Can you tell me why? I have my own spiritual exercises. I didn't change to another regiment.

[Wintersun]

Unfortunately the first thing I meet on Joachims page are books by this Jasmuheen lady. She's a known fraud. Her teachings killed 3 followers. When asked about this she claims that it is not her moral responsibility. And that these people were probably not coming from a place of integrity and did not have the right motivation. To be honest she raises the hair in the back of my neck.

Living on air Watch the whole thing, they put her in a hotel and keep an eye on her. She breaks down quicker than I did. Which is logical because I must be twice her weigth and half her age. Her defense is that they put her in a polluted part of the city. But really she's having the normal starvation reaction. And this was verified by a doctor.

I cannot put my faith in this. Certainly not in people like her. Discernment is vitally important. And one of the things it means is that we don't believe something just because it feels right.

I'm this guy from another planet who believes in our individual ability to perform miracles. I have no difficulty whatsoever accepting the realities of telepathy, telekinesis and our energy bodies, including healing done on those bodies. I'm so nutty I've got nuts to hand round... But even with the best intentions I cannot believe in this.

It was not my intent to stop eating permanently. I just wanted to see what would happen to me if I stopped eating. I never expected this to be permanent. More like exploration. The thing I learned is that it's not as hard as it seems, the process of breaking down is much more gradual than I expected. Apart from a slight physical weakness, the fog in my head and the obviously expected feelings of hunger the first few days I had no symptoms. And the thing I liked is that it puts your mind in a predatory mode. It would be much easier and enjoyable to go hunting when you're hungry than when you're stuffed. Apparently we're wired to survive.

You clearly see the exercises as important. Can you tell me why? I have my own spiritual exercises. I didn't change to another regiment.

You're jumping to conclusions too fast. He did mention her, but prior to introducing her "21 day process", he puts the following statement:

"Warning. Please, do not do the 21 day process unless you have thoroughly read and deeply considered the original description of the method, because if you have not, you may endanger your life. The description below is not enough to do it safely. I have included it here only for information purpose although Jasmuheen asked me to delete it (for safety reason)."

"None of the individuals known to me who had undergone the 21 day process became a non-eater as a result of it. But I know some people who had discovered, thanks to the 21 day process, that they could live without any food."

I'm not so confident about her neither, but that doesn't mean she is the only one on the field. Unlike her, this Joachim guy isn't charging for any of his services, and is relatively unknown. I sense he can be trusted, but everyone should be cautious. You can't just discredit the man before even giving him a shot. It's not like you would die the same instant you read his ideas.

Energizing exercise is what Joachim mentions, as well as what this non-eater I told you about was doing, though, he's not aware of Joachim. They are important, because using them you teach your body how to get the energy (prana) from the environment.

Dino

[fairyfarmgirl]

Yossarian, I apologize, I seem to have totally dropped the ball there. I can't make anything of what I said. And I have missed very essential parts of your words. I think I should have gone to bed instead of hit that post button...

@Wintersun, we had a family friend who ate one cracker with a slice of cheese per day, and a few spoons of vegetables in the evening. She did cleaning work and was very thin but also very healthy. She had no spiritual aspirations other than going to church on sundays, she just did not like to eat.

I will check out Joachims book. I still like the idea, intuitively it completely resonates, but last time I checked I could not bridge it to reality.

I did one "Jump" to see what would happen. After 3 days without food I wasn't grumpy or weak, but I felt like I was living in a fog. I broke off the experiment because a friend needed someone to carry his furniture up 4 flights of stairs and I had this idea that even if I was not fainting now I should probably not push it. Apart from the second day hunger the experience wasn't very difficult I didn't like the fog though.

A long time ago, when I believed my very existence was an act of violence against creation since I was eating others (plants, and animals) to live I tried to live on spirit alone. This seemed to be the only solution to my young mind.

It is not something for the novice to do. This is a Siddah way. The Siddahs are already in the high 4th D to Low 5th D. I am not a Siddah, yet. According to the Siddahs it is a progression, as the light body becomes lighter there is just less and less interest in eating and more in experiencing the joy an d beauty of existence. I can whole heartedly say that the last time I attempted the no-food diet I almost died for lack of sustenence. It took a long time almost a year... but at the end of the experience I had to choose to eat and live or to die by not eating. Starvation is a slow and painful experience that gradually shuts the body and spirit down so slowly that you do not even realize you are cutting yourself off from life.

It was when I chose to live that I truly began to live life more fully and more integrated into being embodied. This is why we are on this Earth-- to truly experience the physicality of living. The joys of being embodied.

Food is here for our use. I intend to use the food fully as I have come to truly enjoy the beauty of eating and sharing food with others. I see no shame or wrong doing in eating from the earth or even cooking my food. I enjoy some foods cooked quite alot!

All this talk about how potatoes are bad for you. Tell that to the millions of Irish men, women and children who died during the potato famine and engineered genocide in Ireland. I have nothing against the wonderful potato which happens to nourish me quite nicely. Tomatoes (Gasp!) are my favorite food, right from the garden eating like an apple. I am most healthiest when eating fresh tomatoes. So It just depends on the path that is right for the individual.

I will say this, there are very very few Siddahs that are here now. It is not something that just happens because you feel bad about eating food and think that you are wrong for being part of the life cycle on Earth. We are all part of the Earth and her Life Cycle.

If fruit is what you feel best eating and your nails are not breaking and your lips are not cracking and your hair is not falling out (this is your body telling you that you need more nutriments) then by all means eat that fruit diet... The same goes for the other foods.

Also, each human body type is attuned to the enviroment of the genetic hertitage. Those from tropical parts of the world will be able to eat tropical fruits with great regularity. Those of us from Nothern and cold parts of the world will need to eat some sort of protein in order to be healthy... It is in the genetics of the body type.

Think in terms of gasoline cars, diesel cars, electric cars, gas powered cars. The types of fuel are not really interchangeable without extensive conversion and lots of headaches....

fairyfarmgirl

[Richard]

I’ve never seen anything in the Ra material that said anything against eating meat. Nor have I seen anything in this material that seemed to suggest vegetarianism over a more balanced diet. But, I do believe that a total “Raw Food” diet is not “natural” in any way, shape or form. If it was a “natural” diet, you wouldn’t need synthetic vitamin supplementation.

Evolution has designed the human being to be omnivorous. So we could survive on the widest variety of foodstuffs and avoid starvation. If evolution had designed us for the singular ingestion of plant matter, our bodily structures would have consisted of more grinding molars, hard palates and multi compartmented stomachs…or larger stomachs (as in horses). Instead, we’ve got both grinding molars for grains and vegetable matter and canine teeth for the ingestion of protein.

That said…modern society has provided us with the choice of how we live our lives. And if you choose a vegetarian diet, for whatever reasons, I think that’s cool. But in the context of the Ra teachings, it appears to be neutral subject.

Richard

Questioner: Could Ra please state which foods are highly probable to not cause the spasming?

Ra: I am Ra. The liquids not containing carbonation, the well-cooked vegetable which is most light and soft, the well-cooked grains, the non-fatted meat such as the fish. You may note that some recommended foodstuffs overlap allergies and sensitivities due to the juvenile rheumatoid arthritic distortions. Further, although sugar such as is in your sweetened desserts represents a potential, we may suggest that it be included at this period for aforementioned reasons.


Questioner: Are there any foods that are helpful or harmful that the instrument might eat?

Ra: I am Ra. This instrument has body complex distortion towards ill health in the distortion direction corrected best by ingestion of the foodstuffs of your grains and your vegetables, as you call them. However, this is extremely unimportant when regarded as an aid with equality to other aids such as attitude which this instrument has in abundance. It, however, aids the vital energies of this instrument, with less distortion towards ill health, to ingest foodstuffs in the above manner with the occasional ingestion of what you call your meats, due to the instrument’s need to lessen the distortion towards low vital energy.

[yossarian]

Ra was giving advice specifically for Carla, who suffered from a serious lack of vital energy due to the channeling and needed concentrated calories. It wouldn't have been practical for them to be raw foodists because they weren't used to it. Ra listed foods that were familiar to Carla and would be most useful to her in that context to support the working.

I don't think it's immoral to eat animals. I don't even think it's necessarily unhealthy - if you keep your intake down to less than 10% of total calories you can be very healthy on a diet that includes animals.

The issue is that it's not ideal.

The thing about raw food is that it's what you could call "an unknown unknown".

There are the things in life that you KNOW you KNOW. You know you know how to drive a car.

Then there are the things that you know you DON'T KNOW. You know that you don't know how to fly a plane, or how to speak Chinese. You're aware that these skills are things you don't have, and are content with them.

But there is also another category - the things you DONT KNOW YOU DONT KNOW. And it is this category that has the most to offer you. The stuff that you don't know you don't know is stuff that can totally change your life.

The truth is that for most people including those in this thread, you don't know that you don't know. You don't know because you've never tried it and because you have incorrect beliefs that has been implanted into you by society. This is ok, this is a big part of living on Earth, but the point is just that you have no idea how much your life might improve by improving your diet.

It's just not true that everyone has a different ideal diet based on genes and culture. The human biology does not work out this way. The ideal diet is ideal because it is the diet that all humans share and that all humans evolved for over literally millions of years. Humans are adaptable and can survive on practically anything, but some things make them happier and healthier than others and most people don't know what they're missing until they try it.

An example is celiac disease. This is a disease that doctors will say only occurs in 3% of the population. Celiac disease is a diseases whereby you demonstrate very unhealthy symptoms when you eat food with gluten - breads, pastas and starchy foods like that. The truth is that *everyone* has celiac disease, just for most humans they don't notice because it is not severe enough. Celiac disease is probably the reason why many vegans and vegetarians go back to eating meat - they were eating too much rice and pasta and bread and not enough fruits and vegetables, so meat is actually an improvement over their vegan/veggie diet.

*Everyone* has celiac disease. There isn't a single human in the world who will not feel more energetic by clearing out their intestines of the gummy gluten and replacing it with a better food such as fish or fruit. This is the type of thing that people don't know they don't know and it's just the tip of the iceberg.

A similar thing happens with cheese. A lot of vegetarians go cheese-crazy and end up being a lot more unhealthy because of it.

The only responsible way to go vegan or vegetarian without harming your health is to increase your intake of fruits and vegetables. *That* is where all the health benefits come from. And since vegetables don't provide calories, this means getting calories from fruit.

Our genetic ancestors (apes) did not live in the cold. When the ETs combined Martian DNA with Earth-ape DNA to create humans 75,000 years ago they took on the digestive system of the ape, who did not live in Europe or Canada or Russia. These are unnatural environments for our bodies. Humans are tropical creatures just like apes and have the same basic diet as apes.


We adapted to the cold northern environment, but at a cost. Our lifespans decreased, our psychic abilities atrophied, our energy went down.

The human body only uses glucose - every calorie you put into your stomach is broken down into glucose before being absorbed into your cells. When you put a complex carb, a starchy potato, beef, or bread, that stuff just gets turned into fruit anyway. Fruit is mostly glucose. Fruit is already in the digestible form.

I agree that cooked food is delicious, but so are many harmful substances like alcohol and tobacco and cocaine. No one ever regrets increasing their fruit intake.

[Richard]

Ra was giving advice specifically for Carla, who suffered from a serious lack of vital energy due to the channeling and needed concentrated calories. It wouldn't have been practical for them to be raw foodists because they weren't used to it. Ra listed foods that were familiar to Carla and would be most useful to her in that context to support the working.

I don't think it's immoral to eat animals. I don't even think it's necessarily unhealthy - if you keep your intake down to less than 10% of total calories you can be very healthy on a diet that includes animals.

The issue is that it's not ideal.

The thing about raw food is that it's what you could call "an unknown unknown".

There are the things in life that you KNOW you KNOW. You know you know how to drive a car.

Then there are the things that you know you DON'T KNOW. You know that you don't know how to fly a plane, or how to speak Chinese. You're aware that these skills are things you don't have, and are content with them.

But there is also another category - the things you DONT KNOW YOU DONT KNOW. And it is this category that has the most to offer you. The stuff that you don't know you don't know is stuff that can totally change your life.

The truth is that for most people including those in this thread, you don't know that you don't know. You don't know because you've never tried it and because you have incorrect beliefs that has been implanted into you by society. This is ok, this is a big part of living on Earth, but the point is just that you have no idea how much your life might improve by improving your diet.

It's just not true that everyone has a different ideal diet based on genes and culture. The human biology does not work out this way. The ideal diet is ideal because it is the diet that all humans share and that all humans evolved for over literally millions of years. Humans are adaptable and can survive on practically anything, but some things make them happier and healthier than others and most people don't know what they're missing until they try it.

An example is celiac disease. This is a disease that doctors will say only occurs in 3% of the population. Celiac disease is a diseases whereby you demonstrate very unhealthy symptoms when you eat food with gluten - breads, pastas and starchy foods like that. The truth is that *everyone* has celiac disease, just for most humans they don't notice because it is not severe enough. Celiac disease is probably the reason why many vegans and vegetarians go back to eating meat - they were eating too much rice and pasta and bread and not enough fruits and vegetables, so meat is actually an improvement over their vegan/veggie diet.

*Everyone* has celiac disease. There isn't a single human in the world who will not feel more energetic by clearing out their intestines of the gummy gluten and replacing it with a better food such as fish or fruit. This is the type of thing that people don't know they don't know and it's just the tip of the iceberg.

A similar thing happens with cheese. A lot of vegetarians go cheese-crazy and end up being a lot more unhealthy because of it.

The only responsible way to go vegan or vegetarian without harming your health is to increase your intake of fruits and vegetables. *That* is where all the health benefits come from. And since vegetables don't provide calories, this means getting calories from fruit.

Our genetic ancestors (apes) did not live in the cold. When the ETs combined Martian DNA with Earth-ape DNA to create humans 75,000 years ago they took on the digestive system of the ape, who did not live in Europe or Canada or Russia. These are unnatural environments for our bodies. Humans are tropical creatures just like apes and have the same basic diet as apes.


We adapted to the cold northern environment, but at a cost. Our lifespans decreased, our psychic abilities atrophied, our energy went down.

The human body only uses glucose - every calorie you put into your stomach is broken down into glucose before being absorbed into your cells. When you put a complex carb, a starchy potato, beef, or bread, that stuff just gets turned into fruit anyway. Fruit is mostly glucose. Fruit is already in the digestible form.

I agree that cooked food is delicious, but so are many harmful substances like alcohol and tobacco and cocaine. No one ever regrets increasing their fruit intake.

Yossarian,

If Ra can suggest that Carla to ingest meat for her health, then it stands to reason that the practice is not frowned on. If one makes a conscience decision to not eat meat, for whatever reasons..I applaud your choice. But since this is a LOO board, some of the posts seem to suggest that vegetarianism is the preferred lifestyle within the Ra teachings. I’ve yet to find that true.

Richard

[ubergud]

I do not think vegetarianism is a 'preferred' lifestyle, but in reading the LOO material as relates to food, as entities progress through densities it seems that one's perspective on and relationship to food changes:

Questioner: Is it necessary to eat food in fourth density?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct.

Questioner: The mechanism of, shall we say, social catalyst due to a necessity for feeding the body then is active in fourth-density. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is incorrect. The fourth-density being desires to serve and the preparation of foodstuffs is extremely simple due to increased communion between entity and living foodstuff. Therefore, this is not a significant catalyst but rather a simple precondition of the space/time experience. The catalyst involved is the necessity for the ingestion of foodstuffs. This is not considered to be of importance by fourth-density entities and it, therefore, aids in the teach/learning of patience.

Questioner: Could you expand a little bit on how that aids in the teach/learning of patience?

Ra: I am Ra. To stop the functioning of service-to-others long enough to ingest foodstuffs is to invoke patience.

Questioner: I’m guessing that it is not necessary to ingest foodstuffs in fifth-density. Is this correct?

Ra: I am Ra. This is incorrect. However, the vehicle needs food which may be prepared by thought.

Questioner: What type of food would this be?

Ra: I am Ra. You would call this type of food, nectar or ambrosia, or a light broth of golden white hue.

Questioner: What is the purpose of ingesting food in fifth density?

Ra: I am Ra. This is a somewhat central point. The purpose of space/time is the increase in catalytic action appropriate to the density. One of the preconditions for space/time existence is some form of body complex. Such a body complex must be fueled in some way.

Questioner: In third density the fueling of our bodily complex is not only simply fueling of the bodily complex but gives us opportunities to learn service. In fourth density it not only fuels the complex but gives us opportunities to learn patience. In fifth density it fuels the complex but does it teach?

Ra: I am Ra. In fifth density it is comfort for those of like mind gathered together to share in this broth, thus becoming one in light and wisdom while joining hearts and hands in physical activity. Thus in this density it becomes a solace rather than a catalyst for learning.

Questioner: I am simply trying to trace the evolution of this catalyst that then, as you say, changes in fifth density. I might as well complete this and ask if there is any ingestion of food in sixth density?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct. However, the nature of this food is that of light and is impossible to describe to you in any meaningful way as regards the thrust of your query.

So I wonder if vegetarianism/veganism/et. al. are offered as experiences in terms of entities recognizing (possibly both consciously and unconsciously at the same time) this shift in perspective on and relationship to food as earth moves into 4th density.

Jason

[lvxseeker]

No one ever regrets increasing their fruit intake.

This is an interesting thread.

I was vegetarian for 5 or so years, and later followed a macrobiotic diet. Now I am an omnivore, but still influenced by my earlier dietary wanderings.

I do tend to weak digestion and a few years ago I went to an alternative practitioner on the recommendation of a friend. He was the kind of practitioner who used an energy machine on acupuncture points. He asked about my diet and after I told him, he said that I was eating too much fruit and vegetables. I said to him that he was going against even the most mainstream ideas about nutrition. Still I followed his suggestion and noticed a significant improvement. High fruit intake isn't for everyone. (Unfortunately because I love fruit).

Now I find out I have high cholesterol. I tend to be a little suspicious of the cholesterol link to cardiovascular problems. There's plenty of information on the internet saying that it is a myth - though I may follow some suggestions to cut down on carbs such as bread and pasta and see what happens. While I would never follow breatharianism, it is interesting to explore the idea of eating as an addiction, and resist eating out of habit rather than need.

[irpsit]

I don't think it is so wise and peaceful if you focus too much on diet.

I am vegetarian but I recognize that we should never impose or even recommend a diet to another. That is a clear infringement of the other free will. That is not an attitude of love.

I accept the world as it is, in love and peace.
I do my very best with love for the environment.
I don't follow any diet rules, I just follow my own body feelings and intuition, not any rational or mind-created rules.
Therefore, I have came to a mostly organic ovo-lacto-vegetarian (with ocasional fish) type of eating. But I eat an icescream if I feel or a chocolate.
Of course I ate the taste and smell of meat but I happily live with my housemates that cook meat. And they happily eat our vegetarian food too.
I have stop eating meat 6 years ago and I am perfectly healthy. I was vegan for 1 year a few years ago but I did not work for me, I was losing vitality, so I eat daily diary and once in a while eggs. I try to eat to about 40% raw (I think only until 60% raw would work fine for me).
Again percentages are a self-imposed thing that is not very positive from my perspective

I support the vegan and raw causes (even if they dont work for me), but only if not in imposing ideas on others (as many are) and in a spirit of peace and acceptance. I am sorry to have said this, but I do really think they is both much ignorance, refusal and blindness by meat-eating people, and much extremism by vegetarians, rawists and vegans. Kind of religion versus science thing. Defintively not the best way to go.

May love prevail.

[Monica]

For me, yes, when I stick to my diet I am just full of energy all the time. Whenever I need energy to exert myself, whether physically or mentally, it is there. There is no "crash". I will be walking down the street and I just feel vibrant and bouncy you could say, just full of energy, and I sort of jump around and stuff. You just sort of ooze energy when you eat this way.

yossarian, you are an inspiration!

I'm getting here late to this discussion...

In response to the OP, my opinion is that, yes, a vegetarian diet is an ideal to aspire to, and certainly quite doable for most people, unless they have unusual physical challenges...while a raw foods vegan diet the absolute ultimate spiritually pure and karmically free diet to aspire to while still here in 3D.

I became a vegetarian 28 years ago, after reading The Essene Gospel of Peace (attributed to Jesus) and Survival Into the 21st Century (Viktoras Kulvinskas), both of which totally blew my mind.

I actually refused to eat meat as a child also, until age 10. Although, in all fairness, I can't really say I was a vegetarian, since I didn't eat any veggies at all! I had an unusual eating disorder as a child. But I do remember being totally repulsed when my dad made me hold the feet of the chickens while he cut off their heads.

Although I did eat typical junk food, including meat, during my teen years, it didn't take much for my repulsion towards it to return. Now, the idea of consuming meat is completely foreign to me.

I tried taking it a step further and going raw foods vegan, but, unfortunately, at the time I didn't have all knowledge to do it right. And, I ignorantly believed a nutritionist who told me to drink distilled water, which turned out to be extremely harmful. I developed extreme mineral loss from the combination of distilled water and inadequate variety of foods. ie. I ate fruit but not greens or nuts. Big mistake!

I learned many years later that, as yossarian states, we must have lots of greens, nuts and seeds to thrive on a raw foods vegan diet. Now that I understand it better, I hope to go mostly raw again very soon! I am getting mentally prepared...it really is an ideal I have aspired to ever since I read those books, so very long ago. But now I have the proper knowledge to do it right!

After my nutritional mishap, I did regain my health, but that's another story! I had a child, so, like fairyfarmgirl, I opted for practicality while maintaining a middle-of-the-road healthy vegetarian diet.

We were vegans for awhile, but alas, my son didn't care much for nut milks or smoothies, and this was before I knew about mixing greens and fruits in a VitaMix for a delightful, protein-and-mineral-rich treat! So, I started giving him cheese, with the rationale that he was already ahead of the game by not eating meat, and since he didn't eat sugary treats, I didn't want him to be totally alienated at birthday parties. At least he could eat the cheese pizza!

I think he relies on cheese too much for optimal health, but overall, he has been much more healthy than most kids I've seen! Never a bite of meat in his life! I'm sure 3.5 years of mama's milk, and not getting vaccinated, helped too!

When I first became a vegetarian, I was awful! Very self-righteous! I made it into a religion and tried to cram it down people's throats. I felt justified because, not only was I trying to help them, but I was trying to speak up on behalf of the animals, who could not speak for themselves.

Alas, my approach did not work, and I only succeeded in alienating people. Finally, a friend spoke up to me, and made me realize how obnoxious I had become.

I now make a point to never bring up diet unless explicitly asked. Nevertheless, people are often intimidated by me, saying stuff like “Oh, I am embarrassed to eat this hamburger in front of you” even though I said nothing about their choice; nor did I even raise an eyebrow. Just asking for a vegetarian entree is enough to attract resentment from my meat-eating friends. I am expected to respect their choice...why can they not respect mine?

I once had a co-worker who admitted that she had a goal of getting me to eat meat...can you believe it? She said I was 'too extreme.'

I was expected to respect her choice of eating slaughtered entities...and I was expected to be silent...but she would not respect my choice.

I am still troubled by this...sometimes I feel very conflicted...how do we balance the Law of One principle of respecting others' free will with speaking up on behalf of the oppressed?

For animals are oppressed! Just as I wish pro-choicers could respect that pro-lifers are championing what they consider to be human children, I wish that meat-eaters could understand that we speak up on behalf of those who feel pain but cannot speak for themselves.

The bottom line is that, barring a few notable exceptions due to physcial health challenges, humans simply do not need to kill animals for food. So why inflict suffering unnecessarily?

Primitive cultures were forced to kill animals for survival. But that is no longer true! The vegetarian diet has been proven to be not only adequate, but more healthy, for the vast majority of humans.

We know from the Law of One that animals are more likely to be INDIVIDUALLY SENTIENT than carrots or heads of lettuce. Case in point: if a falling tree was about to crush a lettuce plant and a dog, and you could save only one, which one would you save?

I can't conceive of any human saving the lettuce plant instead of the dog.

For me, the choice is clear: I would save a human child over a dog, as much as I love dogs, but sorry, I believe the human is a little higher in his spiritual evolution. Likewise, I believe a cow is higher than a carrot.

Aside from the Law of One, it isn't difficult to figure out. Here is a clue: I have observed that cows and chickens, and even fish, struggle like hell to get away, whereas a carrot does not, and fruit fall peacefully from the tree. Yeah, I know that tired old argument that the carrot would run away if it could, but I do not believe that - I believe that spirits inhabit the bodies they need in this lifetime, and if a spirit is advanced enough to want to run away from danger, it is NOT going to choose a carrot's body!!!
I believe that, being on the physical planet, and since we must eat something, there is more life-force of a higher nature in plants - whereas meat actually has negative life-force – it actually promotes death because the animal died a violent, terrifying death, and their escalated fear hormones were rampaging in their frightened, panicked bodies at the time of death. The evidence supports this - many studies have shown that animal foods (and junk food, also having no life-force) are the culprits in most degenerative diseases. Even the 'consciously' killed animals, like the deer stalked by a Native American who gave thanks for its gift, or the animals raised organically, still try to run away. They do NOT want to be killed - they want to live! I do think that if someone chooses to eat animals, it is good to try to get animals that were raised & killed in a humane way, but please respect that I STILL believe animals are not intended as food. But again, that is MY belief. The idea of eating any animal, even fish, is very repulsive to me - regardless of whether or not it is organic or how it was killed - it is simply repulsive the same way human flesh might be repulsive to you.

Taking it a step further, a raw-foods vegan diet is the ultimate karma-free diet. Think about it. Fruits fall naturally from the tree...no life is lost. And carrots? Observe an organic carrot in your cupboard...it will sprout! I submit that is life force merges with our own...it has a group consciousness...is not yet sentient...so nothing is killed...life force is added to life force.

Having said all that, I would like to mention that I have met a number of psychics over the years who told me that they had to eat meat to stay grounded. Ask any vegetarian and they will tell you that they feel lighter, more spiritual, higher, since they quite eating meat. But some psychics are already sort of 'out there' and need to stay grounded. It makes sense to me that eating meat might be an anchor for them. For most of us, becoming vegetarian assists us in feeling lighter and more spiritual, but for some people, who are floating most of the time, eating meat might actually be helpful to them. Still, I remain unconvinced that eating meat is their only option to stay grounded. I suspect it is used as a justification in many cases, and other options have not been explored. It's very easy to just eat meat. Did they try eating sprouted nuts and seeds? Or doing Chi Kung exercises to channel their energy? And those with medical conditions...did they just follow their doctor's instructions, or did they ever try a raw foods vegan diet? I suspect that, in most cases, they were quick to use meat to solve their problems, without being aware that there might be other (vegetarian) options which would also solve their problems. I just don't believe that it's ever absolutely necessary for any human to eat meat. I think there are always alternatives worth exploring. But that is my personal belief and I cannot possibly know what others (like psychics or those with medical conditions) have experienced in this regard. So I think we shouldn't judge others who eat meat, because we don't have all the facts about their particular situation.

But those are the exceptions. Most people eat meat out of habit. They could easily stop if they set their minds to it. And they would help reduce suffering, and thus reduce the negative energy on this planet, if they chose the tofu dish instead of the animal carcass.

[Ali Quadir]

You're jumping to conclusions too fast. He did mention her, but prior to introducing her "21 day process", he puts the following statement:

"None of the individuals known to me who had undergone the 21 day process became a non-eater as a result of it. But I know some people who had discovered, thanks to the 21 day process, that they could live without any food."

So... Basically he has no evidence whatsoever about whether this is possible at this time. And yes, I too think that we can really trust him to believe it to be possible.

At some point, maybe this is possible.. But like I said, at this point it is not a practical solution for humanities over consumption.

I may not have read this mans specific ideas in detail. I skimmed his PDF. And saw nothing new. But I've read enough on the topic to know that I really don't need to. Discernment is vital. Like I said, at the time I could find no single person whom I could really put my faith in. Come up with someone who has been tested in a clinical setting for over 2 months. This non eater you told about, has he been tested? Have you been able to verify him? His claim is extraordinary, he should have no objections about formal analysis. If he does then what is he hiding? Unfortunately, most of the breathairians I've studied were frauds.

I'm sorry, but unless you have additional evidence for this or unless you can come up with new information I'm just going to continue with my previous conclusions. It is not possible at this time.

I'm not trying to be negative or skeptical. I want to believe, and I have given this serious thought in the past. But in my spiritual path I prefer to keep both feet on the ground. I've seen feats of magick and done the impossible myself. But only because I believed in what I could do as opposed to just abandoning all common sense and attempting to do the impossible.

First we walk... Then we fly... Doing it the other way round if you're lucky leads to falling down very hard. Hopefully you'll be surrounded by friends to laugh at you and then pick you up. Or in the bad case you end up always talking about what you think should be possible. Without actually ever doing what is possible.

Energizing exercise is what Joachim mentions, as well as what this non-eater I told you about was doing, though, he's not aware of Joachim. They are important, because using them you teach your body how to get the energy (prana) from the environment.

The waiziva's I do contain one that does something like this specifically. Although they're all said to have this effect.

[ayadew]

Good thoughts Ali Quadir. Many of us has still much work to be done "on the ground", to take your analogy. Breatharianism is not very grounded to our commonly perceived reality.

I honestly don't know what to make of this breatharianism, it does not resonate with me on a fundamental level. I feel much negative intent around this subject. This is a thing that would revolutionize human society and way of life should it work, yet you see no publicity of it, and there is no serious scientific research (that I've found) which has "proved" it. The Jasmuheen experiment which was a scientific failure of epic proportions doesn't really add to the "credibility" of the mainstream versions of this.
I have only seen that which can be defined as "frauds".

If anyone could point me to a study which scientifically proves breatharianism's effect with a serious amounts of tests (not 2 or 5 subjects or somesuch) it would really add to our conversation.

I am personally interested in breatharianism and I've attempted personalised versions of it a few times but alas it's impossible for me currently.

[fairyfarmgirl]

As I have said previously. This is not our path at this time. Breatharianism will be a natural occurance as We all RAISE in VIBRATION and SHIFT to A HIGHER DIMENSIONAL RESONANCE. Just as a child discards the toys of childhood for new toys of adulthood so shall we discard the ways of 3/4 D as we Grow up, naturally.

This is not something to force but to let unfold as natural outcome of growth of spirit and Soul. The Siddah's who are Dimensional Beings are the only human forms I am aware of that do this. But they still partake of food for the joyous experience of eating.

fairyfarmgirl

[yossarian]

Therese Neumann who didn't eat, when asked why she didn't teach starving Africans and so on her technique so that we could solve world hunger, responded by saying, "Noo.. God does not want His earthly drama disturbed."

People starve because it is a growth experience for them. This isn't the kind of thing that is gonna have widespread application anytime soon, although I do think it is possible for individuals to achieve if they are dedicated enough.

[Ali Quadir]

Fairyfairmgirl, I agree with you. I am most specifically not saying that this will never be. Like you I believe it is on our path.. One thing though, I thought the Siddah's did not have a normal body but a light body replacement. I'm not even close to amateur in my knowledge on those guys though. If I'm correct then I understand why they live of light They don't have a physical body to feed regardless how physical this body looks or feels to others.

And Ayadew, I hear you and I go even further, one reliable study of one person who has not eaten in 2 months. Who shows no signs of weight loss or other forms of deterioration. And I would change my mind on the possibility. I'll even ignore the long term effects. Because once we've established that it's possible, we'll still need to make very sure it's healthy. But if it's possible, then I'll accept as a given that it's probably healthy.

My main issue is that the handful of self proclaimed breathairians I've looked into all were speaking about the need for a superior form of ethics yet they were all found to be frauds and some even became nasty when confronted with criticism. It just does not add up.

Therese Neumann who I think is not a fraud ate one holy Eucharist per day which is obviously incredibly little. But it still contains a relatively large amount of sugar and honey, two powerful sources of energy. And then again, I personally knew a woman who ate one cracker with cheese per day and drank only sugarless tea. And she did cleaning work! Physical labor. That's also incredibly little considering the work she did.

Maybe a common mistake for "successful" breathairians is that they think that that single cookie or cracker per day makes no difference? While the body can in reality sustain itself on an apparently negligible small amount of food. We certainly eat too much. The body survives in spite of a lot of crazy diets. This would explain why so many breathairians are exposed as frauds. They believe that they can do without the one single tiny minor indulgence they partake in. And when they accept the scrutiny they really don't believe it will be an issue. Which shows once more how important discernment really is.

The step between a tiny amount to nothing might be immeasurably larger than from a normal diet to hardly eating at all.

[fairyfarmgirl]

Fairyfairmgirl, I agree with you. I am most specifically not saying that this will never be. Like you I believe it is on our path.. One thing though, I thought the Siddah's did not have a normal body but a light body replacement. I'm not even close to amateur in my knowledge on those guys though. If I'm correct then I understand why they live of light They don't have a physical body to feed regardless how physical this body looks or feels to others.

Ali Quadir:

I am only familiar with the Siddha's through books written about them and the a few teaching dreams I have had with them.

They are light beings capable of taking on physical form. The original shapeshifters are the Siddah's (not the lizzies that use mind control) but really shifting forms using energy... Shamanic Adepts are able to do this as well by changing the agreement of physicality and energy. It all has to do with several universal laws and the use of those laws correctly. The Siddahs said to me that all beings are capable of being as they are as they grow in expansion.

The book I read about the Siddhas was written in the 19th Century by some explorers and as soon as I finished reading the book I misplaced it. I no longer have the book or can recall the title but I did read it and afterwards I began to have these teaching dreams with a group of Siddha's. I just tried to unearth the title from my memory and using google but no such luck. I believe it was published in 1898 or so. It was a tiny little book with a yellow cover and it was a reprint from the 1950's.

fairyfarmgirl

[Ali Quadir]

If you're intrested in shapeshifting you should check out John Perkin's "Shapeshifting" You might know him as the author from the book "Confessions of an economic hit man" This is much earlier in his life where he hangs out with a bunch of amazonian headhunters. And they explained some aspects of it to him. Along with some incredible experiences like going on a plane with them and them carrying their very deadly throwing spear as carry on luggage. Customs wasn't as strict at that time as they are now of course, but it was still shocking. Customs simply did not see the spears as weapons, no one did. It was a kind of hypnosis. And this is how the rest of physical shapeshifting was explained.

Basically what they said was that every entity emits a signature. Which is flexible. If you change a signature then people will not recognize it for what it is unless they pay close attention.

On a spiritual level the message of shapeshifting is "Become that which is best suited to handle the current situation you're in." If I remember correctly, Perkins started corporations with the sole intent of supporting earths eco system with their revenues.

[Monica]

"None of the individuals known to me who had undergone the 21 day process became a non-eater as a result of it. But I know some people who had discovered, thanks to the 21 day process, that they could live without any food."

I don't consider 21 days of not eating as qualifying as Breatharian. That's just fasting. I've fasted for 21 days many times. The first 3 days or so are usually rough, but then the digestive system shuts down and euphoria sets in. After a week or so, I started thinking that I'd never eat again! Incredible clarity! After about 2 weeks, I start dreaming about food, and I know it's time to end the fast.

Fasting for 1-2 weeks once or twice a year can be physically cleansing and spiritually rejuvenating. But I wouldn't put it even remotely in the same league as Breatharianism. Lots of people fast, for both health and spiritual reasons. The key difference is that it's temporary.

[Monica]

Moderator Note: The following is a dialog between Whitefeather and me that originally transpired on another thread. In an attempt to merge that discussion with this thread, since it was the same topic, I accidentally merged the posts into 1 big post. There's no way to undo my mistake, so I will just insert a label so you can see which comments are mine and which are Whitefeather's.

Bring4th_Monica

When we take food in, we take energy forcefully from another life in order to sustain ours, whether the life we take the energy from be an animal, a vegetal or even a mineral.

I don't think this is true of live plant foods. As one who is pursuing a predominately raw plant foods diet, I perceive the plants' life force as blending with my own, rather than me taking the life force from it.

In sexuality, there is again a transfer of energy of another kind.

Sexual energy transfers can be either STS or STO.

I would not say that these 51% are matching our level of consciousness in the sense that it is virtually impossible to be more that 52% STO while surviving in 3D as human beings

I'm surprised by this. Are you, then, saying that all of us who are eligible for graduation are basically the same in terms of polarity?

I think there are many among us, particularly those masters who've walked the Earth, such as Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Gandhi, Yogananda, etc., and maybe even countless unnamed people who give of themselves selflessly, whose polarity is well beyond the threshold.

since our metabolism itself is mainly an STS activity and so is our immune system.

I assume that you think the metabolism is STS because it consumes nutrients? And the immune system STS because it fights off invading bacteria, viruses, etc.?

This is an interesting proposition. My understanding is that bacteria, viruses, etc. are 2D entities, and therefore devoid of polarity (although they can certainly be used for STS purposes, by being manipulated by higher STS entities). I don't think the natural bodily processes are inherently polarized. I don't think metabolism is inherently STS, although the choice of foods might be.

About the right info from channeling, i would tend to see it as relative to the cultural background and general understanding of the channeler. Also, channeled messages get distorted when they have to take the vehicle of words in order to reach our minds down here, taking into account our personal, cultural, societal and linguistic distortions.

I agree with this!

---

When we take food in, we take energy forcefully from another life in order to sustain ours, whether the life we take the energy from be an animal, a vegetal or even a mineral.

I don't think this is true of live plant foods. As one who is pursuing a predominately raw plant foods diet, I perceive the plants' life force as blending with my own, rather than me taking the life force from it.

since our metabolism itself is mainly an STS activity and so is our immune system.

I assume that you think the metabolism is STS because it consumes nutrients? And the immune system STS because it fights off invading bacteria, viruses, etc.?

This is an interesting proposition. My understanding is that bacteria, viruses, etc. are 2D entities, and therefore devoid of polarity (although they can certainly be used for STS purposes, by being manipulated by higher STS entities). I don't think the natural bodily processes are inherently polarized. I don't think metabolism is inherently STS, although the choice of foods might be.

Whitefeather

Greetings Monica,

The polemic between vegans, vegetarians and omnivores is much heated and, I do not wish to ignite one even when there is much to be expressed upon the subject. I would like to stress that I feel very respectfully for each and all positions.

Food however represents one main energy intake for survival of the body in 3D and therefore, it furthers our awareness to ponder about the subject.

I have myself been vegetarian and vegan in my early years until I realized that the only food freely given is the flesh of fruits, not even the seeds nor the grains or leaves. Plants are not given as food. Their life force has to be taken by force in order to support the life of entities from a density above them.
However, the flesh of fruits is like a gift which function is: 1/ to protect the precious seeds guarantying the survival of the specie and, 2/ to secure the possible traveling of the seed when the fruit if taken away for eating.
So, it is a temporary 'cloth' for the seeds and, as such, will be appealing in order for being later eaten for the releasing of the seeds.

There is one thing though about food, which is not much discussed and, that is the vibratory level of each kind of food. I think that this is more important to us in term of our path of spiritual evolution/creation.

It may exist a kind of agreement from densities below, to feed densities above, in order to allow the growing towards a greater consciousness. In that regard, have you ever pondered whether we are the end of the food chain?

In each density, an STS ''activity'' is marked by a 'devouring' sort of activity, compared to an STO activity which would be a 'radiant' sort of activity.
That was what I meant when I mentioned about our digestive system and our immune system.

Take care,
and enjoy your food . That is the best we can do.
L/L
W.

---

Bring4th_Monica

I have myself been vegetarian and vegan in my early years until I realized that the only food freely given is the flesh of fruits, not even the seeds nor the grains or leaves. Plants are not given as food. Their life force has to be taken by force in order to support the life of entities from a density above them.

However, the flesh of fruits is like a gift which function is: 1/ to protect the precious seeds guarantying the survival of the specie and, 2/ to secure the possible traveling of the seed when the fruit if taken away for eating.
So, it is a temporary 'cloth' for the seeds and, as such, will be appealing in order for being later eaten for the releasing of the seeds.

There is one thing though about food, which is not much discussed and, that is the vibratory level of each kind of food. I think that this is more important to us in term of our path of spiritual evolution/creation.

Taking the life of an animal is definitely by force. The animal is running in terror in a vain attempt to save its life.

In contrast, when I harvest lettuce from my garden, I perceive its life force as being radiant and happy to merge with mine. I don't think its life force has exited its body when I pull it out of the ground, as the soul of a deer exits its body when the bullet kills its body in a bloody act of violence.

The lettuce sits happily in my frig until I eat it, at which time its life force merges with mine which I can only imagine might be similar to those dwelling in a SMC.

The carrots and potatoes are definitely still alive. They continue to grow sprouts until their life force merges with mine.

Seeds and nuts, imo, are dormant powerhouses of life force. The might lie dormant for months or years, but then when I soak them, their life force is activated.

I agree about the eating of fruits being karma-free, but I think the same is true of all fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds, when consumed raw. Partaking of the life-force that is all around us is like breathing the air and drinking clean water. It's life!

The slaughter of an animal against its will is death. It's violence. I think that if a soul is sentient enough to have free will, it won't incarnate into the body of a carrot. It'll choose an animal body so it can run for its life. I think that's a clue.

It may exist a kind of agreement from densities below, to feed densities above, in order to allow the growing towards a greater consciousness. In that regard, have you ever pondered whether we are the end of the food chain?

Yes I have, actually, and I think we are not at the end of the food chain. The Earth is. We feed the Earth when our bodies decompose.

In each density, an STS ''activity'' is marked by a 'devouring' sort of activity, compared to an STO activity which would be a 'radiant' sort of activity.
That was what I meant when I mentioned about our digestive system and our immune system.

OK I think I understand what you're saying. In that respect, I would say that the eating of live foods is radiant, while the bloody slaughter of a sentient being is devouring. I'm not sure how it applies on a microscopic level. Is a cancerous growth radiant because it's growing? Or devouring because it consumes healthy tissue?

I guess I'm still not sure I agree with the very premise of applying STS/STO concepts to 2D lifeforms (bacteria etc.). Our bodies have more bacteria than they do cells, which is many trillions. We are walking eco-systems.

---

Whitefeather

Hi Monica,
Nice to read from you.

when I harvest lettuce from my garden,

Wow, you are lucky!

I perceive its life force as being radiant and happy to merge with mine. I don't think its life force has exited its body when I pull it out of the ground, as the soul of a deer exits its body when the bullet kills its body in a bloody act of violence.

I agree. The life force of the lettuce is only fading away slowly from the moment it is taken away from its nourishing ground. :-/ And it is only when it is actually under our teeth that it starts to suffer and die, not very differently than when a tiger eats a live animal.
(Ouch! Do'nt shoot the messenger! I have not invented the devouring/eating system! Actually, I think that I may have come down here to find a kind of solution to it.)

The carrots and potatoes are definitely still alive. They continue to grow sprouts until their life force merges with mine.

Oh yes, they are trying hard to survive until the last second.

I agree about the eating of fruits being karma-free, but I think the same is true of all fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds, when consumed raw.

I am not sure about this karma thing. IMO, it is a matter of balance. We eat (same meaning than 'devour') food which is an STS activity and then, we are given opportunities to balance the eating by endeavoring in STO activities. For our harvest, 51% STO will do the trick, says Ra!

Partaking of the life-force that is all around us is like breathing the air and drinking clean water. It's life!

I agree that everything is alive, every thing. However, water is a liquid crystal which life force is not taken from it when we drink it. We do not take life from air either when we breath it; however, we imprint both with our thoughts & feelings (see the work of Masaru Emoto and the memory of water). If our thoughts and feelings are high enough in positive good energy, how do you think that it affects the environment when people and animals drink the water and breath the air? We need to be aware that the air and the water upon the Earth are the same however they are in constant circulation, cleansing and distributing ... wherever they go. They are cleansing and distributing the thoughts and the feelings which we pour into them. And, by our thoughts and feelings, we create, we co-create.

The slaughter of an animal against its will is death. It's violence.

And the lettuces, aren't we acting against their will or do we ask their consent before eating them raw?
As a shaman, I have seldomly see a life which wants to be eaten or, to perish, so far and, this includes plants. We have to accept that we kill in order to eat, We have to be aware of what we do. Because if we are not aware of the everyday killing of life, how can we ever do something about it? It is about awareness and responsibility.

I think that if a soul is sentient enough to have free will, it won't incarnate into the body of a carrot. It'll choose an animal body so it can run for its life. I think that's a clue.

The lettuce would run for its life if it only could!

It may exist a kind of agreement from densities below, to feed densities above, in order to allow the growing towards a greater consciousness. In that regard, have you ever pondered whether we are the end of the food chain?

Yes I have, actually, and I think we are not at the end of the food chain. The Earth is. We feed the Earth when our bodies decompose.

The Earth is the Logos (or octave) above us. My concern about food chain is about densities above us. As a principle, on Earth, life feeds from the density below, meaning that we are food for someone. I just wonder what it is that they 'eat' from us.

In each density, an STS ''activity'' is marked by a 'devouring' sort of activity, compared to an STO activity which would be a 'radiant' sort of activity.
That was what I meant when I mentioned about our digestive system and our immune system.

OK I think I understand what you're saying. In that respect, I would say that the eating of live foods is radiant, while the bloody slaughter of a sentient being is devouring. I'm not sure how it applies on a microscopic level. Is a cancerous growth radiant because it's growing? Or devouring because it consumes healthy tissue?

I guess I'm still not sure I agree with the very premise of applying STS/STO concepts to 2D lifeforms (bacteria etc.). Our bodies have more bacteria than they do cells, which is many trillions. We are walking eco-systems.

The microscopic level, viruses, cancers, bacterias as well as our cells, constitute the Logos below us. Therefore, in 'their world', so to say, they all interact between one another. We, as human beings are their host in the same manner as Earth is our host.
In a manner similar than that of our interaction with Earth, where we can help or hinder the well being of the Earth, the microscopic level can also help or hinder our well being. The 'planetary system' of the microscopic level is represented by our chakras.

I hope it is not too long.

Take care
Love & Light & Life,
W.

[Monica]

Originally posted in the Veggies by Force thread (post #46), then transferred to this thread:

I'm finding participation in this thread rather challenging. I agree that it's "not strictly necessary to be vegetarian" in order to follow the STO path. We all know lots of beautiful, loving people who eat meat.

At the same time, I will be honest here and admit that I struggle with how to converse with spiritually-oriented people on the meat issue. The reason is that, while I respect the choice of others when no one is being hurt, my own spirituality makes a distinction when there are victims involved, and I feel compelled to speak up on behalf of the victims. How, then, do I speak up on behalf of the animals while still remaining non-judgmental towards my friends who either are ignorant of animal suffering, or, for whatever reason, justify it?

Most of us here would agree that one person's freedom ends where another's begins. Hence, we would respect another person's right to do whatever they want, as long as they don't harm someone else. But this usually only refers to other humans. Why is it ok to harm, torture and kill our 2D brethren? (Make no mistake: Animals raised in conventional 'factory farms' are routinely tortured.)

To illustrate: If someone here on the forum stated that they personally liked to rape little girls, would we be saying, "Well I don't personally rape little girls, but I respect your choice to do that" ?

I know I'm bringing up a very delicate subject here, but I feel that we've been dancing around the core issue. My intention isn't to judge anyone for eating meat. I am just honestly trying to understand how this act of violence can be justified by otherwise 'aware' people. I can only conclude that they either don't view it as violence because they consider animals lesser beings, or they are not aware of the suffering that is going on.

Pablisimo's post (#25) has given me the courage to vocalize what I had been suppressing, for fear of offending anyone. If I do offend anyone, I sincerely apologize! As I mentioned, my own husband eats meat occasionally. (In his case, he embraces the vegetarian diet but has chosen to allow himself to evolve to it naturally. But he doesn't pretend that it's 'ok.') So I truly don't wish to judge anyone. I am sincerely just trying to understand how the killing of animals can be reconciled with the STO path.

---

I perceive its life force as being radiant and happy to merge with mine. I don't think its life force has exited its body when I pull it out of the ground, as the soul of a deer exits its body when the bullet kills its body in a bloody act of violence.

I agree. The life force of the lettuce is only fading away slowly from the moment it is taken away from its nourishing ground. :-/ And it is only when it is actually under our teeth that it starts to suffer and die, not very differently than when a tiger eats a live animal.

I respectfully disagree. On what basis do you think the lettuce is suffering? I see no evidence of that. Whereas, there is abundant evidence that animals are suffering when they get slaughtered.

The carrots and potatoes are definitely still alive. They continue to grow sprouts until their life force merges with mine.

Oh yes, they are trying hard to survive until the last second.

Again, on what basis are you presupposing this? This sounds like mere speculation. Why do you attribute 3D characteristics (free will, sentience) to 2D entities? Note that animals are closer to graduation to 3D than most plants, the exception being some trees (according to Ra...will produce quote upon request).

Partaking of the life-force that is all around us is like breathing the air and drinking clean water. It's life!

I agree that everything is alive, every thing. However, water is a liquid crystal which life force is not taken from it when we drink it. We do not take life from air either when we breath it; however, we imprint both with our thoughts & feelings (see the work of Masaru Emoto and the memory of water). If our thoughts and feelings are high enough in positive good energy, how do you think that it affects the environment when people and animals drink the water and breath the air? We need to be aware that the air and the water upon the Earth are the same however they are in constant circulation, cleansing and distributing ... wherever they go. They are cleansing and distributing the thoughts and the feelings which we pour into them. And, by our thoughts and feelings, we create, we co-create.

Food is also constantly circulating. Our waste becomes food for other life (or, at least it would, if we didn't use modern toilets!).

I disagree that life-force isn't taken from air and water. Try doing some Chi-kung exercises. You will be filled with life-force! Try breathing deeply after a thunderstorm. You will be filled with life-force! Try drinking water fresh from a mountain spring or a freshly melted glacier (or a Kangen water ionizer machine!). You will be filled with life-force!

I disagree that they are the same. Air can be pure and fresh, or it can be polluted and toxic. Water can be acidic, oxidizing, and poisoned, or it can be energizing, alkaline, and life-giving. Each can be dead, or full of life energy.

The slaughter of an animal against its will is death. It's violence.

And the lettuces, aren't we acting against their will or do we ask their consent before eating them raw?

Your question presupposes that 2D plants have free will. Do they?

We know that animals have free will, though not to the extent of humans. Anyone who's ever had a dog or cat knows this. They have personalities. They think. They can be playful, teasing, angry, and even devious. They most definitely have free will.

As a shaman, I have seldomly see a life which wants to be eaten or, to perish, so far and, this includes plants.

Under what circumstances did you observe plants about to be eaten? Did you observe plants about to be harvested by a machine? In which case, of course the spirit fled in terror! Or, did you observe a lettuce lovingly harvested by an appreciative gardener?

We have to accept that we kill in order to eat, We have to be aware of what we do. Because if we are not aware of the everyday killing of life, how can we ever do something about it? It is about awareness and responsibility.

What do you propose we 'do' about it? I am doing something about it. I refuse to participate in the killing. I cannot control the killing of microorganisms when I breathe. But I can choose to not participate in the obvious suffering of an almost-3D partially sentient entity who shrieks in terror and pain when killed to satisfy...what? A lust for the taste of meat? For what reason is this beautiful being suffering?

We can debate whether lettuces feel pain. But we cannot debate whether cows, chickens and deer feel pain. They do. Indisputably, they do.

I can choose to not participate in that.

I think that if a soul is sentient enough to have free will, it won't incarnate into the body of a carrot. It'll choose an animal body so it can run for its life. I think that's a clue.

The lettuce would run for its life if it only could!

This is speculation. How do you know that? Again, we know the cow will run for its life. We know the fish will frantically swim away from the net. How is it even remotely logical to justify the killing of an entity (any animal) who is obviously suffering, by saying that some other entity (lettuce) might be suffering?

To clarify:

I know the cow suffers. I know the cow doesn't want to be killed.

I don't know that about the lettuce. I have only your opinion to go by. I respect your opinion as a shaman, but, to be honest, I don't take it as absolute or authoritative. Why would I continue to support the suffering of an animal, whose suffering is without question, just because a lettuce might also suffer? A lettuce whose suffering is highly questionable? Even if you are correct and the lettuce does suffer, why would that justify the conscious support of animal suffering?

The Earth is the Logos (or octave) above us. My concern about food chain is about densities above us. As a principle, on Earth, life feeds from the density below, meaning that we are food for someone. I just wonder what it is that they 'eat' from us.

Respectfully, I think you are making some assumptions here. I don't think we can assume that, just because a pattern is prevalent in the lower densities, that it is also prevalent in the higher densities. For example, violence, division and separation are all prevalent in 3D, but presumably not in the higher densities. Likewise, the pattern of 'life feeding from the lower life-forms' you observe in 3D might not be relevant in the higher densities.

\

[Monica]

If I had more money, I'd surely give it a shot. But my God... 15 bananas

I would basically buy all the bananas in the fruit store each month, lol.

Bananas are ridiculously cheap, especially compared with other fruits, and even moreso when compared to meat, cheese and other 'mainstream' foods.

Raw food vegans eat a variety of fruits. Bananas are relied upon as staples precisely because they are so cheap (not to mention filling and nutritious!).

---

It is the modern diet that is radical. The raw food diet is returning to the natural human diet.

Agreed!!!

[Lorna]

monica i can completely see where you're coming from, i typed most of this reply out in the 'veggies by force' thread but then thought it may be more appropriate here.

thinking about the struggle with why some people find vegetarianism hard, i find it helpful to remember that we are souls inhabiting a 2d animal in our human form and that our 2d physical shell has evolved on an omnivorous diet and many people may find meat / fish a necessity

i am a vegetarian by your definition monica. while i have toyed with a vegan diet at times, and in terms of foodstuffs eat mainly vegan meals, i do have regular dairy and on and off eat eggs (i used to be violently allergic to eggs and now go through phases where i am intollerant, at other times they cause no discomfort)

however, vegetarianism was never a choice for me - eating flesh always felt inherrently alien, and i stopped eating meat and fish as soon as i had worn my parents sufficiently down about it. so if eating meat felt so completely unnatural to me, then i can totally sympathise with others who find a vegetarian diet similarly strange.

the most appropriate path for each entity can only be found within. i can remember a conversation with one of my parents when i was very small about the differences between cannibalism and eating meat - i personally saw no difference and i can remember the confusion of the conversation well because the distinctions didn't make sense to me.

making the choice for my child to be vegetarian has taken more careful consideration. when contemplating whether or not to offer him meat i came to the realisation that 'normal' within my home was veggie, even if normal in my wider society was omniverous. therefore he already made the decision to be a veggie child before incarnating by chosing me as his mother. difficult to explain to relatives who try to get him to eat sausage rolls though...

as i've posted before, there are many, many wonderful people working in the farming and meat industries and it seems, in the uk at least, that there is a quiet revolution going on regarding food production that is putting ethical and sustainable farming high on the agenda. i know a few poineers in this field who are lightening the darkness of the meat industry who are very much enlightened souls

a dairy farmer i know is an amazing example of this. he's just started building a commercial dairy which will probably have the highest welfare standards in the world, whereby he will cut down dramatically the amount of milk he takes and will keep the calves with their mums for as long as they want. female calves will remain with the dairy herd. male calves will be reared for organic beef, leading very natural lives. contrast that with intensive dairy practices where male calves are shot at birth and female calves removed from the cow after 1 day, or less.

when i was finding out all about what he was doing last year he said 'the world consumes more beef and dairy than the world can sustain. beef and milk should be much more expensive than it is, they should be a luxury products'

instead meat and dairy have been normalised as every day sustenance. hearing a beef and dairy farmer say such things is radical, but changing food production industries can ony come from within these industries, and happily it seems to me, change is happening. rather than feel distress at such clearly enlightened individuals continuing to work in and participate in the meat industries, i would far rather celebrate those who are inspiring the industry to change for the better

[Monica]

i am a vegetarian by your definition monica. while i have toyed with a vegan diet at times, and in terms of foodstuffs eat mainly vegan meals, i do have regular dairy and on and off eat eggs

Same here! I don't have an aversion to dairy and eggs, as I do to meat.

however, vegetarianism was never a choice for me - eating flesh always felt inherrently alien,

Again, me too! I never ate any meat until age 11. None. My mom used to try to cram it down my throat and I'd throw it right back up. I can't say I was a vegetarian, though, because I wouldn't eat any veggies either.

My dad raised chickens, pigeons, ducks and geese. I had to hold the legs of the chickens when he chopped their heads off with a hatchet.

Not a good experience for a child.

the most appropriate path for each entity can only be found within. i can remember a conversation with one of my parents when i was very small about the differences between cannibalism and eating meat - i personally saw no difference and i can remember the confusion of the conversation well because the distinctions didn't make sense to me.

You were more aware as a child than I was. I just knew that meat grossed me out.

making the choice for my child to be vegetarian has taken more careful consideration. when contemplating whether or not to offer him meat i came to the realisation that 'normal' within my home was veggie, even if normal in my wider society was omniverous. therefore he already made the decision to be a veggie child before incarnating by chosing me as his mother.

That's exactly the same conclusion I came to! Whenever anyone challenged me about my choice to not feed him meat, I asked them if they gave their children cigarettes.

My son is now 21 and has never had a bite of meat in his life, except for when a bit of meat got in his food at a restaurant, in which case he promptly spit it out and rejected the whole dish. He's had plenty of opportunities to eat meat but is repulsed by it. When he was little, I simply told him that animals were our friends, and why would we want to eat our friends?

Whereas many children naturally step on bugs, he never did.

as i've posted before, there are many, many wonderful people working in the farming and meat industries and it seems, in the uk at least, that there is a quiet revolution going on regarding food production that is putting ethical and sustainable farming high on the agenda. i know a few poineers in this field who are lightening the darkness of the meat industry who are very much enlightened souls

That's wonderful!!! I'm so glad to hear that!

when i was finding out all about what he was doing last year he said 'the world consumes more beef and dairy than the world can sustain. beef and milk should be much more expensive than it is, they should be a luxury products'

Agreed!

rather than feel distress at such clearly enlightened individuals continuing to work in and participate in the meat industries, i would far rather celebrate those who are inspiring the industry to change for the better

Agreed!

[AnthroHeart]

The works of Cleve Baxter showed how even consciousness can affect plants. In his experiment, using a lie detector to measure galvanic skin response (basically resistance), he showed that even when he had intention of burning a plant's leaf, the detector went crazy. He hadn't even harmed it. Just the thought of doing this produced a very measurable readout.

So it may be some auto-response, I don't know. I don't feel any guilt for eating plants, or meat if I feel the need to at the time. But I am always thankful for every meal. Taking the food with appreciation I think is most important.

[Richard]

Its personal lifestyle choice. But equating a higher consciousness with that choice is the equivalent of a southern Baptist claiming hellfire is your destiny because you don’t believe the Bible is the literal word of God. Both beliefs are personal beliefs…with no way of proving or disproving an effect otherwise.

Physiologically, humans are omnivores. The structure of our teeth and digestive systems indicate that. The creator had to of had that in mind. True herbivores digestive systems are radically different than omnivores. The difference, I think, is Free Will. I commend you on your expression of Free Will to choose this path. But I don’t choose to follow that path.

Richard

[Monica]

Its personal lifestyle choice. But equating a higher consciousness with that choice is the equivalent of a southern Baptist claiming hellfire is your destiny because you don’t believe the Bible is the literal word of God.

Do you think that is what anyone is doing?

That's not how we intend it. I don't think anyone here has stated that someone can be more spiritual by being a vegetarian. In fact, I know Pablisimo and I, and others, have all gone out of our way to state that we don't consider vegetarianism to be a prerequisite for the STO path. We have acknowledged that many people who are more spiritually evolved than ourselves eat meat.

If we have failed in our endeavor, then I will try again:

It's not about spiritual evolution. The issue is linked to Pablisimo's personal spirituality and to my personal spirituality, but we have stated that we don't consider it a litmus test for others. We have no right to judge others. We are only stating what the issue means to us personally.

It's not about spirituality. It's about compassion. It's about championing the cause on behalf of those who cannot speak up for themselves. It's humanitarian, not necessarily spiritual. It might be spiritual for some. For some of us, there is no distinction. But I know plenty of animal rights activists who are not consciously spiritual. They are doing what they think is right, as an act of compassion.

If this were a project to end human hunger, would it be construed as an attempt to be 'holier than thou' and judge others? Would our efforts to end hunger be interpreted as a religious fundamentalist telling someone they are going to hell?

Both beliefs are personal beliefs…with no way of proving or disproving an effect otherwise.

You're right. There is no way to prove or disprove the spiritual implications of being a vegetarian vs eating animals.

I don't think anyone is trying to do that. We're not trying to prove anything regarding spirituality and diet.

We're only seeking to invite others to consider the suffering of the animals when making their dietary choices. The suffering of animals can indeed be proven...quite conclusively.

Physiologically, humans are omnivores. The structure of our teeth and digestive systems indicate that.

I am surprised by this statement. Would you be able to explain what you mean by this? We don't have fangs like dogs and cats, we lack the strong stomach acids to digest meat, and we have long digestive tracts, in which meat tends to ferment (in contrast to the shorter digestive tracts of carnivorous animals). And, we recoil at the sight of a bloody rabbit, whereas a dog or cat will eagerly tear into it. So I am confused at how our physiology can be used to support the eating of animals.

The creator had to of had that in mind. True herbivores digestive systems are radically different than omnivores.

Can you provide an example of an omnivore?

You are right that our digestive systems are unlike those of herbivores. We're not cows or horses. We don't digest grass.

Our closest physiological relative is the ape/chimp. Our teeth and digestive system are radically different from both dogs and cows, but nearly identical to that of apes. Their natural diet (in the wild) is vegetarian, except for the occasional bug hidden in their leaves and fruit. They eat mostly greens, fruit, nuts, and roots. And the occasional bug.

The difference, I think, is Free Will.

That's a good point. I agree! That's why I don't feel that I must eat the way my ancestors did. Our ancestors had to hunt animals to survive. But we no longer need to do that.

It's been established that everyone has the free will to choose their own diets. No one is disputing that. We're just exploring the reasons for a vegetarian diet, as that is what this thread is about.

I am sensing that some people might be feeling hurt or defensive, and I'd like to reiterate once again that none of us vegetarians have any intention of hurting or judging anyone! I would like to invite those who eat meat to consider our views if you wish, but please don't feel compelled to explain your own choice if you don't want to. No one is trying to win a debate or judge those who disagree. We're just exploring different points of view, for the benefit of all. We can all learn and grow from one another!

I already understand and accept that most of the people here, like most of the people on the planet, choose to eat animals. I don't love them any less! I am genuinely seeking to understand why people choose to eat animals! I am wondering whether they have ever given it much thought, and whether they have ever looked at the animals they are killing. I am wondering whether they have ever considered that maybe it's unnecessary. I am wondering whether it's just something they have always taken for granted. I am wondering if they might make a different choice if they knew that it wasn't necessary. And, I am wondering if there is ever a good reason to inflict suffering when there are alternatives available. In other words, is there any good reason to eat animals, other than simply 'choosing to'? Do we have the right to impose our will on another creature, just because we 'want' to? How is this any different from a slave 'owner' choosing to have a slave? Why is it any different, because it's a human instead of a cow? Why does the cow inherently have no rights? It took a long time, and much effort, for slavery to end in our country (and it still goes on, unfortunately). It took a long time, and much effort, for minorities to get equal rights. I don't want to judge those who eat animals. I would like to invite them, if they have chosen to visit this thread, to consider that the vegetarians are doing the same thing the human rights activists did to end slavery and discrimination. I invite them to seek understanding of our views, rather than feel judged. We're not trying to judge you. We are trying to raise awareness of something we feel as strongly about as our ancestors did about slavery.

[transiten]

Hello

I'm thinking about the Eskimos f.i. that are still living a traditional lifestyle. For them it would be an impossibility not ton eat meat and fish unless they choose deliberatley to live in the cities where they sadly enough often start to drink because they cannot assimilate themselves into the "modern" lifestyle and easily fall victims to unemployment.

transiten

[fairyfarmgirl]

Agreed Transiten!

A raw food diet is key to good health. Raw meat is included in the raw food diet. Certain human body types require animal protein. Those who have chosen vegetarianism do so because thier body type allows them the act of chosing such a lifestyle. Eating Meat does not mean one will be sickly. Eating Meat is largely an ethical issue based on the bias that one is taking life and causing suffering. Since the very act of living causes suffering to someone and something somewhere... the difference then is cultivating a attitude of sacredness.

[Lorna]

the thing i notice, perhaps because i work with food producers, is that it is the people closest to the animal to have the most respect for the animal and who appreciate and understand the value of the meat or fish they consume. the people who buy their meat in a white tub at the supermarket are the furtherst removed from the animal and consequently have the least understanding and respect for the source of the meat.

i have the utmost respect for traditional ways of life - i live in a landscape that cannot, on the whole, sustain any real vegetable, fruit or cereal growing - it's too hilly, too damp, not warm enough. this part of scotland is dairy country, with beef and sheep farming to supplement the dairy industry. scotland cannot sustain a vegetarian diet using local foods, it's not a traditional diet for this part of the world at all. there are many parts of the world where local food production does easily enable a vegetarian diet, notably asia and india, and in these landscapes vegetarianism is fairly normal.

therefore, as a vegetarian i happily accept that i am the weirdo within my society and i feel fortunate that the export and import of foodstuffs allows me to have a balanced veggie diet. while i share monica's viewpoint to an extent, and i did more so when i was younger, for me the greatest sadness is the disconnection people have, as a whole, with the food that sustains them.

this is an interesting article http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/w...ea-charman

one thing i have noticed, my veggie toddler totally understands what meat and fish is, it's not as though we've discussed it much at all, i've answered the odd question but that's about it, i've actively explored with him whether he would like to try it - he doesn't. his 5 year old meat eating cousin doesn't know what meat is, her parents (one of whom is veggie) say 'oh we don't want her to know because if she did she wouldn't eat meat'. that's a point of view i don't understand at all. the conversation came about because my son was talking about meat - about chickens being chickens i think - and he was shushed. they would rather lie to their daughter and ask my son not to speak rather than empower their child with knowledge.

sorry for rambling, just thinking out loud - this is an interesting topic and one that is so divisive, it's nice to hear alternative points of view without dialogue becoming heated

[Monica]

A raw food diet is key to good health. Raw meat is included in the raw food diet.

I agree that raw foods are key, but I'd like to point out that most raw foodists are vegetarians (raw foods vegans, usually, though some do raw milk). In recent years, the 'caveman' diet has become popular, which includes raw meat. But I know of very few people who can stomach raw meat.

For the sake of clarity, I just wish to point out that a 'raw foods diet' doesn't necessarily include raw meat, and was quite rare until Dr. Mercola made it popular. There are variations, as with any diet. Even the statement that raw foods are key is disputable. I happen to agree with you on that point, but there are many nutritionists, such as those following macrobiotics, who would disagree with us. There are as many opinions about diet as there are about religion!

Certain human body types require animal protein.

This too is a theory.

Those who have chosen vegetarianism do so because thier body type allows them the act of chosing such a lifestyle.

Do you not think that we can transform our bodies, based on our consciousness? Why must we be limited to a blood type or body type?

I have read of yogis healing people in an instant...I have witness psychic healing...tumors shrinking instantly...Surely our consciousness can raise to higher vibrations...isn't that what going to 4D is all about? So why not shift from a belief that we require dead animals to a belief that we can flourish on plant foods? Why must we perpetuate limitations? Especially now, in this period of transition to 4D?

Eating Meat is largely an ethical issue based on the bias that one is taking life and causing suffering.

People choose to be vegetarians for a variety of reasons: health, ethics, animal suffering, spiritual, environmental...or a combination of these.

Whereas, I would venture to say that most people who eat meat do so unconsciously. You are an exception. The majority of people who eat meat don't give it much thought until their doctor tells them to lower their cholesterol, or until their teenager shows them a video of animal slaughter.