To Vaccinate or Not

[Shawnna]

To live in a civilized society, one must think of the impact their decisions have on the whole society, not just on their own situation.

I'm just glad most of us still believe in science and make decisions based on science, not the fear mongering that is all too prevalent.

That's a fair point but what if the scientific model is driven by the desire to conquer nature, as opposed to cooperating with it?

You mean like building airplanes?  Afterall, if nature wanted us to fly, we'd have been born with wings.  



Honestly, I believe our health care advances are a blessing that should be shared with all.  Vaccines in particular use the natural immunity one would get if one survives the disease itself so how is that going against nature?  

Perhaps I misunderstood your point.  If so, I apologize.  

I'm a big believer in the public health model and I do not believe one has the right to choose to ignore science if by doing so one puts others more vulnerable at risk of dying.  Unless, of course, you choose to isolate yourself from humanity - then do whatever you want.  But if you want to live within a civilized society, you do have an obligation to not put others at risk because of the choices your make.

[Shawnna]

Those who choose not to vaccinate have an obligation to the rest of humanity to isolate themselves. 

No. I have absolutely no obligation to do anything.
This sort of message would not be out of place in any dictatorship.

Did you think about this one or was it just a knee jerk reaction?

[line removed because of guideline infringement]

I have thought about it a great deal actually.

I think not vaccinating is very much an STS decision based primarily on fear and not understanding science and public health.

[Ashim]

Those who choose not to vaccinate have an obligation to the rest of humanity to isolate themselves. 

No. I have absolutely no obligation to do anything.
This sort of message would not be out of place in any dictatorship.

Did you think about this one or was it just a knee jerk reaction?

[line removed because of guideline infringement]

I have thought about it a great deal actually.

I think not vaccinating is very much an STS decision based primarily on fear and not understanding science and public health.

So you believe this to be true in every single case?
Do you believe there has never been malevolent intention behind a vaccination programme?

I assume you are a medical professional, what with telling me (and others) that we understand neither science nor public health.
In this case I look forward to a more in depth discussion, especially regarding my (obviously limited) grasp of science.

[Jade]

What if I think that the act of selling us on vaccination is an act of fear mongering? Fear this disease, fear that disease, take our medicine and We will make you better. If you don't take this vaccination, you will put the rest of the world in danger!!!! Sounds like selling fear to me.

Jade would you like to speak to the descendants of those Indigenous people and tell them that their apocalypse was okay?

Would you like to be the one to tell them that they were not sovereign Creators of their own experiences?

[Jade]

When we devalue the experiences of others with judgement, we are devaluing a part of our own Creation, and creating an indigo ray blockage by rejecting what we have created subconsciously. To say an apocalypse, or an outbreak, or a rape, or a murder, is bad, we are suppressing expression. It takes two to tango - if there is a murderer, there is a "victim", who has most likely agreed to the scenario. We choose many difficult situations to experience to learn and grow the most we can - when we get angry at the ways others have decided to learn love, no matter how long their path, we are really just taking the poison ourselves. Of course, being outraged is catalyst itself. 3D is gritty, you don't have to be the one doing the plundering, but you gotta accept that plundering occurs before you can be in any mindset to really make large impact.

[K-PAX]

~ Left Bring4th to avoid bullying ~

[Jade]

K-PAX, apparently we are unable to come to any common ground at this time. Thank you however for reminding me that when I offer a detached version of my perspective of a hot-button subject, that I should make more of an attempt to temper it with a softer approach.

Personally, I don't think it is fair of you to make assumptions about my life experience or suggest that I am naive compared to you, when you obviously just using me as a mirror of certain issues you have that have nothing to do with me. I am vaccinated and don't have any children, so you are merely outraged at your perception of my point of view, which is a fairly nebulous thing. I also think it's crossing a line to call me ignorant and suggest I don't have an open heart because I haven't traveled, and to make vague threats about "putting me in contact with your Native American friends"... but I won't make a fuss about it except to point it out to you here so you can make a more informed choice next time you take offense to something someone says.

Also, for what it's worth, I find the irony in that you feel so much sympathy for the Native culture to this continent but you still trust that same government to inject yourself with the same viruses that they used as a weapon on the natives in the first place....

If you take a break, I wish you well, and hope your work with the impoverished continues to fulfill your spirit.

[Nicholas]

To live in a civilized society, one must think of the impact their decisions have on the whole society, not just on their own situation.

I'm just glad most of us still believe in science and make decisions based on science, not the fear mongering that is all too prevalent.

That's a fair point but what if the scientific model is driven by the desire to conquer nature, as opposed to cooperating with it?

You mean like building airplanes?  Afterall, if nature wanted us to fly, we'd have been born with wings.  



Honestly, I believe our health care advances are a blessing that should be shared with all.  Vaccines in particular use the natural immunity one would get if one survives the disease itself so how is that going against nature?  

Perhaps I misunderstood your point.  If so, I apologize.  

I'm a big believer in the public health model and I do not believe one has the right to choose to ignore science if by doing so one puts others more vulnerable at risk of dying.  Unless, of course, you choose to isolate yourself from humanity - then do whatever you want.  But if you want to live within a civilized society, you do have an obligation to not put others at risk because of the choices your make.

Shawnna you use 3 words that raise an eyebrow. "should", "must" and "civilized"

You have no need to apologise despite missing my point. (aeroplane analogy lol)

I am very much a part of humanity, its just that I am very much seeking to detach myself from the tribal rhetoric that you have portrayed in your reply.

My earlier post in this thread conveys my point. (objective experience) Also Jade and Ashim hint towards my viewpoint.

I guess, according to your "beliefs" I am less deserving of a potentially life saving jab in the arse by a life affirming piece of metal (your analogy, not mine).

Furthermore, my interpretation of "life" is clearly different from yours.

[Shawnna]

To live in a civilized society, one must think of the impact their decisions have on the whole society, not just on their own situation.

I'm just glad most of us still believe in science and make decisions based on science, not the fear mongering that is all too prevalent.

That's a fair point but what if the scientific model is driven by the desire to conquer nature, as opposed to cooperating with it?

You mean like building airplanes?  Afterall, if nature wanted us to fly, we'd have been born with wings.  



Honestly, I believe our health care advances are a blessing that should be shared with all.  Vaccines in particular use the natural immunity one would get if one survives the disease itself so how is that going against nature?  

Perhaps I misunderstood your point.  If so, I apologize.  

I'm a big believer in the public health model and I do not believe one has the right to choose to ignore science if by doing so one puts others more vulnerable at risk of dying.  Unless, of course, you choose to isolate yourself from humanity - then do whatever you want.  But if you want to live within a civilized society, you do have an obligation to not put others at risk because of the choices your make.

Shawnna you use 3 words that raise an eyebrow. "should", "must" and "civilized"

You have no need to apologise despite missing my point. (aeroplane analogy lol)

I am very much a part of humanity, its just that I am very much seeking to detach myself from the tribal rhetoric that you have portrayed in your reply.

My earlier post in this thread conveys my point. (objective experience) Also Jade and Ashim hint towards my viewpoint.

I guess, according to your "beliefs" I am less deserving of a potentially life saving jab in the arse by a life affirming piece of metal (your analogy, not mine).

Furthermore, my interpretation of "life" is clearly different from yours.

Ok.

[ScottK]

Those who choose not to vaccinate have an obligation to the rest of humanity to isolate themselves.  

You don't have the right to subject others to potentially fatal diseases because of a personal choice you've made to ignore science and not vaccinate.

I perceive vaccinations, and the recent push for vaccinations to be the work of the minions of the Orion Group to execute their plan of conquest and enslavement over the people of Earth.  There is absolutely no possibility of me submitting by my own free will to receiving any vaccination at this time.

Furthermore, I would suggest that many of the diseases of recent years are really just biological agents created at Fort Detrick

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Detrick

among other places and released at certain locations to further the Orion Group's agenda.  One of those agenda items being, of course, to push vaccinations.

That said, if you are correct about the importance of vaccinations and their benefit, then I would suggest that all those who received the vaccinations will be safe and all of us wide-eyed conspiracy theorists will receive our rightful penalty from the One Infinite Creator.

[Ashim]

Those who choose not to vaccinate have an obligation to the rest of humanity to isolate themselves.  

You don't have the right to subject others to potentially fatal diseases because of a personal choice you've made to ignore science and not vaccinate.

I perceive vaccinations, and the recent push for vaccinations to be the work of the minions of the Orion Group to execute their plan of conquest and enslavement over the people of Earth.  There is absolutely no possibility of me submitting by my own free will to receiving any vaccination at this time.

Furthermore, I would suggest that many of the diseases of recent years are really just biological agents created at Fort Detrick

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Detrick

among other places and released at certain locations to further the Orion Group's agenda.  One of those agenda items being, of course, to push vaccinations.

That said, if you are correct about the importance of vaccinations and their benefit, then I would suggest that all those who received the vaccinations will be safe and all of us wide-eyed conspiracy theorists will receive our rightful penalty from the One Infinite Creator.

[Shawnna]

I sincerely doubt the Orion group would create a way for millions to avoid horrific diseases and/or death.

That being said, I'm grateful a good majority of us do believe in science and are willing to be vaccinated so that we don't subject those who are more vulnerable and for whatever reason, can't be vaccinated to these horrific diseases.

[AnthroHeart]

It would sincerely pain me if I were the cause of a pandemic. If I were responsible for other's death, I don't know if I could take that.

[indolering]

.


 I can hardly believe that there are people who advocate for Big Pharma without being paid to do so. Anyone who has studied the subject at all can see the blatant lies and subterfuge of the industry as opposed to the growing mass of people who not only have seen and experienced the damage, but have accessed the real studies which clearly show causation. I guess we just have to accept that some people will always relegate their judgment to authority figures, especially in mind-controlled societies such as this one. 

The obvious deceptions by the industry are simply ignored by those who have been hoodwinked, those who cannot believe government or medicine would intentionally mislead or harm us. They don't realize how every institution of modern life has been taken over by negative elements, all controlled to some extent by the Parasites-in-charge. And people here claim that knowing the truth of the hijacking of our planet is a distraction from Self-Realization! Without a planet, no one is going to do any meditation here at all. We cannot separate our spiritual life from our everyday life. We have to deal with everyday realities regardless of our progress on the Path.

 Without the ability and knowledge of being able to discern the truth of the state of our society, we will be subject to harm from all sorts of schemes to control and kill us. Vaccinations is but one blatant example of the illuminati's program to debilitate the populace, facilitating their bid for complete takeover. GMOs is another. Public Education is another.  And have you noticed the militarized police state being erected all around us...?

Dr Wakefield is a hero of modern medicine, much as dentists Weston Price and Hal Huggins. And Wakefield has always been moderate in his claims, even saying that he believed in the efficacy of some vaccinations. I want to include here a link to a short article concerning the dentists cited above. It's completely typical of the industry to respond as they do to those who question the status quo. People will just have to make up their own mind as to who to believe...but ask the question, “Who benefits?”

Legendary Dental Pioneer Passes Away

It has been said that a person must be judged by the works he accomplished while he was alive. If this is the bar to measure against, then Dr. Hal Huggins was a giant among men. And, if self-sacrifice for a cause is thrown in for good measure, then he had no equal in his field.


Dr. Huggins dedicated the latter part of his life to a cause he had no inkling existed when he attended Dental school at the University of Nebraska and practiced dentistry in Colorado Springs, Colorado. He was the golden boy of the America Dental Association or ADA, the trade association that represents dentists, giving presentations throughout the country and teaching about blood chemistries, which he held a post doctorate degree in from the University of Colorado.

Then, one day, he ran into Olympio Pinto, an M.D. from South America, and his world changed. After Dr. Huggins gave a talk at a convention for the ADA, Olympio pulled him aside and shared with him his findings that the mercury in Amalgam fillings leaked out and caused diseases in patients he had in Brazil.

“Impossible,” Dr Huggins countered. ”If they were dangerous, then the ADA would not allow them to be used at all.” He dismissed the idea, but invited Pinto to show him his findings that evening in his hotel room to review the evidence.

That day changed Dr. Huggins’ life forever.

It turned out that dental amalgam fillings, which contain 50% mercury, did leak. Sadly, the toxicity of mercury is very well known and documented - it is the most deadly non-radioactive metal on earth. And dentists were routinely planting, in our mouths, without warning or informing us, hundreds of millions of them every year. The scope of it horrified Dr. Huggins. He wanted to do something about it.
He approached some top officials he knew in the ADA and presented his findings, which he was sure they would welcome and start alerting dentists and warning patients.

He was wrong.

The ADA had no intention of even considering that amalgams were dangerous. And for a simple selfish reason. Liability. They promptly disinvited him from any further ADA talks, and started a thirty-year campaign to methodically attack, discredit and ultimately destroy him....


read more:
http://www.rense.com/general96/legend.html


.

[K-PAX]

~ Left Bring4th to avoid bullying ~

[Shawnna]

It appears nothing anyone shares or says will change an anti-vaxxer's mind.

http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2...ire-effect

[Ashim]

It appears nothing anyone shares or says will change an anti-vaxxer's mind.

http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2...ire-effect

Well does that surprise you? What drives you to the extent of wanting to change someones mind?

Should not the 'mind changing' be something that happens as the result of a personal realization, not due to having been told something by some random person on the internet?

You convienently place all folks into either the "vaxxer" or "anti-vaxxer" camp. This is a false false dichotomy.

I already asked you  questions about this that you avoided.

I find it interesting that you place 100% trust in the entire medical profession regarding vaccination but are convinced to the extent of 'warning' others that Facebook represents a conspiricy to harvest peoples personal information for nefarious purposes.

Do you think that Facebook is suceeding in pulling the wool over the eyes of over 750 million people?
Oh wait, Shawnna says it's a conspiricy so we should cancel our facebook accounts!

Before you say that it's unfair of me to quote your personal blog, I remind you that it was you alone who placed it on your profile for all to see. I take it that was the intention anyway.

So again I ask you;
are you a medical professional? (if so I would appreciate a detailed discussion on the science I seem to struggle with, in your opinion.)
Do you believe that there has never been malevolent intent behind a vaccination programme?

Your response please.

[ScottK]

Q: Do you feel that no-one should be vaccinated?

(or just you and certain others who don't wish to vaccinate?
(therefore: relying on and benefiting from the protection from disease that happens when other people DO vaccinate? ("herd immunity"))

Q: What DO you feel we should do to combat lethal and life-threatening diseases?

Q1 - that's an interesting question.  In recent years, I don't know whether your standard tetanus shot has been adulterated.  Certainly, at one point, many of these vaccinations were good things.  The problem now is they have been tainted with all sorts of agents which cause other side effects.  If a drug company could come out with a vaccination that would cause someone to have to take a prescription drug every day for the rest of their life, I guarantee they would do it.  The recent H1N1, ebola, and now measles media attacks have been to promote tainted vaccinations, so I would certainly argue that no one should take them. 

I would prefer to deal with infectious disease by strengthening my own immune system with vitamin D and systemic enzymes along with using colloidal silver and MMS, and other things (that's just what popped into my mind).  Of course, keeping your body alkaline helps too - and Monica is a distributor for water machines that can assist with that, too.

Q2 - who's "we"?  If "we" is a centralized "authority" who has all kinds of hidden interests that they don't disclose, then I will pass on that.  At some point, perhaps you should make a choice with regard to whether you would like to live on a slave planet with the Orion group as your unseen masters, or if you wish to live free as a sovereign individual.

I regularly work with a fellow who was high up in the NSA and he has a well above top secret clearance. If someone becomes a whistleblower within government, they lose their job, their pension and risk criminal prosecution and the mainstream media completely ignores them, or ridicules them should the message come out.  If those problems were lifted, he tells me there would be many, many people coming forward.  That's how these conspiracies remain undisclosed.  Few people wish to destroy themselves.

I should also note that the best way to reform any system is to work outside the system. For example, the last person who would want to reform the legal system is a lawyer, as their life is 100% invested in the old way. My point being that medical professionals have been bombarded over the years with information from a variety of sources - and they can't bring themselves to go against that information. So I have no question that virtually all doctors are 100% for vaccinations, because that's what the system relentlessly tells them. The outsider with knowledge is the one who can bring about meaningful change.

Speaking for my own particular life, if I ceded my authority to a doctor to make my medical decisions for me, I would be waaaaay worse off and a slave to at least 3 pharmaceuticals and I would feel terrible. So I don't give away my authority to make decisions for myself, period..

[Jade]

Q: Do you feel that no-one should be vaccinated?

(or just you and certain others who don't wish to vaccinate?
(therefore: relying on and benefiting from the protection from disease that happens when other people DO vaccinate? ("herd immunity"))

Q: What DO you feel we should do to combat lethal and life-threatening diseases?

A1) I feel that people should have a choice, with everything, as this is the density of choice and when we start telling people what to do is when things start to go wrong.

A2) I feel people should listen first and foremost to their own bodies and do what their bodies tell them to do - if someone feels fit and healthy, that's the hurdle and they are good to go. If someone is sickly, then they need to find the cause of what is making them sick and try to remedy the situation. If they don't want to, that's again their choice. I think what we need to spend more time combating is the FEAR of lethal and life-threatening diseases. I'm not 100% sure that death is as scary and devastating as we all make it out to be.

I want to try to help point out some of the cognitive dissonance:

I hear "If you are anti-vax, you are pro-disease!"

This is the same with the abortion argument. "If you aren't pro-life, you're PRO-ABORTION!" Nobody is PRO-ABORTION. Just like nobody is PRO-DISEASE (except arguably the AMA). That's why we call it pro-CHOICE. Saying "if you don't vaccinate you could cause an outbreak!" is like saying, "Well, if you abort your child, you could be aborting the doctor who has the cure for cancer!!" These are future possibilities with a one and a billion chance, and these thoughts are not rooted in our true purpose, which is to do our best to live to our highest potential in the present moment.

Handing over our rights to our government is the slipperiest of slopes. I support individuals being able to choose what sort of alterations they make to their native body complex.

[Shawnna]

I want to try to help point out some of the cognitive dissonance:

I hear "If you are anti-vax, you are pro-disease!"

This is the same with the abortion argument. "If you aren't pro-life, you're PRO-ABORTION!" Nobody is PRO-ABORTION. Just like nobody is PRO-DISEASE (except arguably the AMA). That's why we call it pro-CHOICE. Saying "if you don't vaccinate you could cause an outbreak!" is like saying, "Well, if you abort your child, you could be aborting the doctor who has the cure for cancer!!" These are future possibilities with a one and a billion chance, and these thoughts are not rooted in our true purpose, which is to do our best to live to our highest potential in the present moment.

Handing over our rights to our government is the slipperiest of slopes. I support individuals being able to choose what sort of alterations they make to their native body complex.

I always appreciate your thoughtful responses.  Thank you.

With respect to 'handing over our rights to our government' - I'm afraid I fail to see how choosing to vaccinate is equivalent?  

I made a decision to vaccinate because I knew it was important to the health of my children.  With the exception of polio vaccine, many of these vaccines weren't available when I was a child and I suffered through each of these diseases.  I wanted to give my children the benefit of modern science and they were both vaccinated.  

I have also made a decision to continue my own vaccinations when appropriate because I believe choosing to vaccinate is good public health policy.  

There are individuals who may die or suffer horribly if they contract these diseases that are easily preventable.  

I want to make sure my choices do not cause harm, or have the potential to harm, others.  

[Bring4th_Austin]

Dear friends,

This topic is one of the most hot-button topics in the mainstream right now, and it seems to touch on some very deep-moving streams of emotion which easily escalate a respectful discussion to that of personal jabs and attacks. The mods have taken a scalpel to this discussion and tried to separate the heated words of interpersonal discussion from the topic at hand. You may find the threads of personal disharmony relocated to the Community Relationships subforum.

We ask that participation in this thread be kept strictly to the actual topic at hand, and not the people posting. As the first guideline says, “participants may disagree to the bone with an idea without personally attacking the author of the idea.” If you cannot offer an opinion of disagreement without a personal assessment, evaluation, or jab at the poster of the opinion, please refrain from posting.

As you continue to discuss the topic of vaccinations, if you find yourself feeling heated and in an elevated emotional state, please take a step back, take a deep breath, and attempt to find the center of respect, compassion, and love with which we are all here to share.

Thank you all for your consideration and continued striving for harmony.

With love,
Bring4th Mod Team

[Ashim]

Austin.

WE ARE NOT STRIVING FOR HARMONY:

Not yet anyway.

[Shawnna]

A very interesting and timely article of interest on this topic. Enjoy!

http://www.thenation.com/article/198609/...ut-measles

[Parsons]

Q: Do you feel that no-one should be vaccinated?

To answer that, I need to explain my understanding of disease:

34.7 ↥ Questioner: Do what we call contagious diseases play any part in this process with respect to the unmanifested self?
Ra: I am Ra. These so-called contagious diseases are those entities of second density which offer an opportunity for this type of catalyst. If this catalyst is unneeded, then these second-density creatures, as you would call them, do not have an effect. In each of these generalizations you may please note that there are anomalies so that we cannot speak to every circumstance but only to the general run or way of things as you experience them.

---

76.20 ▶ Questioner: What was the form of disease, and why did this exist at beginning third density?
Ra: I am Ra. Firstly, that which you speak of as disease is a functional portion of the body complex which offers the body complex the opportunity to cease viability. This is a desirable body complex function. The second portion of the answer has to do with second-density other-selves of a microscopic, as you would call it, size which have in some forms long existed and perform their service by aiding the physical body complex in its function of ceasing viability at the appropriate space/time.

76.21 ▶ Questioner: What I am trying to understand is the difference between the plan of the Logos for these second-density entities and the generation of what I would guess to be a more or less runaway array of feedback to create various physical problems that act as catalyst in our present third-density condition. Could you give me an indication of that; of whether my thinking is anywhere near right on that?
Ra: I am Ra. [...] The Logos planned for entities of mind/body/spirit complex to gain experience until the amount of experience was sufficient for an incarnation. This varied only slightly from second-density entities whose mind/body complexes existed for the purpose of experiencing growth and seeking consciousness. As the third density upon your planet proceeded, as has been discussed, the need for the physical body complex to cease became more rapidly approached due to intensified and more rapidly gained catalyst. This catalyst was not being properly assimilated. Therefore, the, shall we say, lifetimes needed to be shorter that learning might continue to occur with the proper rhythm and increment. Thus more and more opportunities have been offered as your density has progressed for disease.[...]

Also, the healer does not heal. In this case, the healer would be the doctor administering the vaccination or the doctor who created the vaccination.

Questioner: What is the difference, philosophically, between a mind/body/spirit complex healing itself through mental, shall I say, configuration or it being healed by an healer?
Ra: I am Ra. You have a misconception. The healer does not heal. The crystallized healer is a channel for intelligent energy which offers an opportunity to an entity that it might heal itself.

In no case is there an other description of healing. Therefore, there is no difference as long as the healer never approaches one whose request for aid has not come to it previously. This is also true of the more conventional healers of your culture and if these healers could but fully realize that they are responsible only for offering the opportunity of healing, and not for the healing, many of these entities would feel an enormous load of misconceived responsibility fall from them.

I think this is the perfect example of conventional healers having misconceived responsibility for those who have disease.

My own personal policy on disease is that it will simply NOT HAPPEN if it is not needed catalyst. That applies to myself (if I get sick and/or die) and everyone else. So I choose not to get vaccinated because as far as I'm concerned, I will either get sick with or without the vaccine if I need it, or if I don't I wont get sick either way. Consequently, it is also my belief that if I were to physically spread a disease to someone else whether or not I actually get sick, the same policy applies to the other person: If they don't need it, they won't get sick.

I have other concerns with vaccines but honestly, they aren't even worth mentioning because my primary reasoning stands without my other reservations.

Q: What DO you feel we should do to combat lethal and life-threatening diseases?

To answer you question directly, due to my above reasoning, the only way I think we can combat disease is to help the individual figure out why they need that catalyst. If the catalyst is no longer needed, they will no longer be sick / die of their disease.

I am NOT asking you or anyone to have that policy. If you want to try to encourage people to get vaccinated and think that it makes a difference, go right ahead. If other people want to get vaccinated or DON'T want to get vaccinated, I say do whatever floats your boat. However, I will not be coerced/guilt-ed into getting a vaccination (because of my reasoning above).

[ScottK]

Hi Parsons,

I love the Ra quotes, however, I will say that I believe this is a pretty good example of the danger in interpreting Ra quotes too literally and shallowly.  Remember, Ra is a sixth density entity who is somewhat detached from third density experience so they are very likely to make high level statements rather than making statements that consider all the details of third density existence.

Example 1:  Say you are a 4th density harvestable entity who interprets all things and all catalyst as love (perfect chakras through green ray).  One day, you find yourself at the top of a 30 story building on the outside ledge.  You decide to take a step and fall 30 stories to your death..

Example 2:  Say in this case that I'm that same 4th density entity, and I'm standing in front of a poison ivy plant (I get poison Ivy really bad).  I then decide to roll around in that poison ivy plant, and then my whole body gets poison ivy for the next 2 months.

Extreme examples I know, but for the purposes of this discussion, they work..

So you could believe that you didn't need the catalyst, but you really did.  The problem in these particular examples is that the subject lived in denial of, or bypassed the rules of 3d reality - those rules being the Law of Gravity and the touching of something that is toxic to the skin.  As a result, needless "negative" catalyst was received - I quote "negative" because the perfectly balanced entity would view two months of poison ivy as pure love.   Of course, I most definitely realize that I am NOT that entity.    But it seems to me that there is little wisdom in needlessly receiving that catalyst..

Going back to vaccinations, the question as I would see it is much more complicated than those Ra quotes would lead you to believe.  In order to make fully correct and optimal judgments of how to proceed, one must be fully aware of all the issues.  Since few would be fully aware in the case of vaccinations, one can only be as aware as they can be and do what they can to make the "right" decision.  Then there is also the choice of being in denial of problems which could contribute to making a wrong decision.  In my view, the "right" decision would simply minimize the amount of "negative" catalyst.  Certainly others may choose to have more negative catalyst in their lives in order to have a different experience.

The controversy lies in the prism through which all of us view this 3d reality illusion or whatever it is, and I choose not to oversimplify the process.

[Jade]

If you don't understand the value of the catalyst in the moment, that doesn't mean it's unnecessary. I think "unnecessary catalyst" is an oxymoron

[anagogy]

Hi Parsons,

I love the Ra quotes, however, I will say that I believe this is a pretty good example of the danger in interpreting Ra quotes too literally and shallowly.  Remember, Ra is a sixth density entity who is somewhat detached from third density experience so they are very likely to make high level statements rather than making statements that consider all the details of third density existence.

Example 1:  Say you are a 4th density harvestable entity who interprets all things and all catalyst as love (perfect chakras through green ray).  One day, you find yourself at the top of a 30 story building on the outside ledge.  You decide to take a step and fall 30 stories to your death..

Example 2:  Say in this case that I'm that same 4th density entity, and I'm standing in front of a poison ivy plant (I get poison Ivy really bad).  I then decide to roll around in that poison ivy plant, and then my whole body gets poison ivy for the next 2 months.

Extreme examples I know, but for the purposes of this discussion, they work..

So you could believe that you didn't need the catalyst, but you really did.  The problem in these particular examples is that the subject lived in denial of, or bypassed the rules of 3d reality - those rules being the Law of Gravity and the touching of something that is toxic to the skin.  As a result, needless "negative" catalyst was received - I quote "negative" because the perfectly balanced entity would view two months of poison ivy as pure love.   Of course, I most definitely realize that I am NOT that entity.    But it seems to me that there is little wisdom in needlessly receiving that catalyst..

Going back to vaccinations, the question as I would see it is much more complicated than those Ra quotes would lead you to believe.  In order to make fully correct and optimal judgments of how to proceed, one must be fully aware of all the issues.  Since few would be fully aware in the case of vaccinations, one can only be as aware as they can be and do what they can to make the "right" decision.  Then there is also the choice of being in denial of problems which could contribute to making a wrong decision.  In my view, the "right" decision would simply minimize the amount of "negative" catalyst.  Certainly others may choose to have more negative catalyst in their lives in order to have a different experience.

The controversy lies in the prism through which all of us view this 3d reality illusion or whatever it is, and I choose not to oversimplify the process.

Your extreme examples indicate an oversimplification of how catalyst occurs in my opinion.  Catalyst is pulled into your experiential field because of imbalances in your energy field.  If there are no imbalances, the imbalanced reflection doesn't occur.  Because in such a situation, you don't "need it". 

So a balanced entity would not roll around with poison ivy, or jump from a giant building, because those behaviors aren't consonant with balance.  In fact, they are the exact opposite of balance.  There is no "unnecessary catalyst" in my opinion.  When one is in perfect alignment with unity, you absolutely *thrive*.  And when you are not, you experience that imbalance reflected in your experience of reality, which causes you to ask for improved experience (or balance).  Those experiences which will teach you that healing/balance are then summoned into your experiential field if you follow inner guidance.

Now perfect alignment is more the exception, than the norm.  But even within an realistically more "ordinary" level of "imperfect balance", you would tend to be unconsciously drawn away from catalytic probabilities that are subjectively negative in nature.

I would also question the whole Ra being too far removed from 3rd density to properly understand it on a practical level, given that many portions of their social memory complex are incarnate as 3rd density beings. I think material science just hasn't quite acquired the "consciousness key" to the cosmos yet, so there is a major component missing from any explanation of how anything is drawn into our experience.

A balanced entity won't be drawn into the chain of causation leading to infection of the second density viruses (unless they desire cessation of life in that form).

Having said all that, it is not wrong to be vaccinated, and it is not wrong to not be.  But if you close off one path of catalyst, it will simply reflect itself in another.  Another "symbol" of imbalance will be pulled into your experience of equal negative contrast.  The imbalance will "reincarnate" so to speak. 

[ScottK]

The point that I was really trying to get at is related to denial.  A literal read of those Ra quotes and an over-reliance on them could lead the reader to be in denial of truth.  In the case of vaccinations, rather hard and ugly truths exist.  If one refuses to accept the hard and ugly truth, and live in denial, one has not learned the lesson, in my view, which would open one up to a good old dose of catalyst..

The following is a Q'uo transcript quoted fully, and I'll bold the few sentences I believe to be most relevant.  Many that I associate with (fundamentalist Christians - it's a complicated story ), consider vaccinations to be the "Mark of the Beast".  So this Q'uo transcript is about the "Mark of the Beast".

http://www.llresearch.org/transcripts/is..._0215.aspx

Sunday Meditation

February 15, 1987
Group question: About the “mark of the beast,” as mentioned in the Bible, what it might be, what it means to people and so forth.

(Carla channeling)

I am Q’uo, and I greet you in the love and in the light of the one infinite Creator. It is a privilege to blend our vibrations with yours as you sit in meditation, and we thank you for calling us to join you, and offer our faulty and error-filled thoughts.

Upon the subject of the mark of the beast. This instrument wished us luck before she gave over control of the speaking mechanism to us, and we do indeed feel lucky to be able to speak with you about evil, for surely, the mark of the beast is only a symbol for that which is evil. Indeed, the mind often thinks in symbols rather than turning to the essence of things.

To be literal, which is of course one level of answering the question, the mark of the beast, it being 666, is a triple number, rooted in the Cabalistic traditions of your Eastern peoples. Within that tradition, the number six refers to the house of mundane things. The number six has connotations concerning finances, wealth, security and survival. If one has a penchant for luxury, the number six might be expected to figure in a numerological analysis of such an entity’s name or birth date. When a number is doubled, it is the same number but stronger, and when it is tripled, it is very strong, thus the number 666 is literally, “the things of this world.” Thus, the mark of the beast is symbolized by a number which connotes your present experience.

Lift your thoughts with me and let us look at this world of yours that is full of symbols of the evil of the beast; here a daisy, there a lark, here a thinking youth, and there a smiling woman. These things do not seem outwardly evil, yet for those who gaze upon the beast, the mark can be found, for the illusion is yours and each of you may choose to interpret what lies before you as you will. It is possible through description to cause the same scene to appear quite wonderful or quite the opposite by the careful use of detail. We might point out, for instance, instead of a flower, one of your refuse heaps; instead of a smiling woman, a hungry child. The choice of symbols is always yours, nor is the beast strong within one who chooses positively oriented symbols to facilitate the interpretation of catalyst.

What we are attempting to do is to indicate to you our feelings concerning prophecy. The mark of the beast is one of many symbols used within an inspired work of channeling done by the one named John. Much of this entity’s effort was involved not in offering universal symbology, but rather in sending covert information concerning specific events and entities to those known to the one known as John. The work has inspired and over-awed many, yet seldom has the deeper symbology been penetrated to discover the balance of the present moment. Such is the greatest danger of prophecy and symbology. Whatever one thinks about evil, one must cause one’s thinking to become twisted and biased in order to accommodate the eccentric symbology of the beast, its mark, its unusual body design, and its various foes. Perhaps this has kept some from gazing upon the essence of the beast.

The essence of the beast lies within each heart and within each mind. The essence of the beast is the power of denial. Just as the essence of love is the power of acceptance, so the essence of evil is the perfect ability to deny what is true and believe what is false. Thus, evil has far less to do, for instance, with money than with less-than-straightforwardness in gathering, keeping and spending money. One who is seeking the essence of the positive seeks more and more to offer the self in service. One who wishes evil may seem to offer service to others, yet always there is some denial of free will, some rejection of some aspect of universal love, some implied or stated separation between you and some other. The one who looks for advantages at another’s expense is a far clearer symbol of the beast than a number.

It has been said among your group this evening that as you sit in meditation, you live in the experience of the age of the beast, the age of universal credit and the rule of many by numbers. Remember that it is not the symbols that have power, but the essences that give the symbols power. The evil which lies within your monetary systems is an evil—that is to say a lie—which has been with you since the first money was used to make money rather than trading being done between two entities which had use of each others’ surplus. Thus, the essence of money being artificial power is an evil essence by definition. However, the technology of your age, my children, is neither good nor evil, but a tool used for good or ill.

Would that we could guide you to one writing which made all things clear, one set of symbols in which there was no doubt of clear meaning, no confusion as to extraneous detail. We cannot, for there is no construction made of words and concepts which is not also a group of symbols, and in the end that which you know of good and evil abide not in symbols but in essences. Essences are felt by the deepest heart and mind of an entity so that there is recognition and knowingness of that which is, shall we say, morally pleasing and morally distasteful.

As you gaze upon this age which many find full of lies and therefore evil, look upon the essences of people, relationships and the stewardship of that which is seemingly evil—money—and find within yourself the positive truth affirming, life-affirming characteristics and attributes of people, relationships and stewardship which can be brought to bear upon each and every situation. For this is not an age—this, my children, is your age, and no mark of any beast can shape the rhythm of your own creation. That there are highly motivated, negatively oriented angelic spirits is as true as that there are highly polarized and motivated positive angelic entities.

We have no desire to play down the loyal opposition which challenges us and makes us learn to be strong. We wish only to correct any tendency towards feeling that one is in the grip of evil or in any way limited or governed by the apparent world view. To many, this is indeed the age of the beast. We find this among the peoples, this attitude of many greatly disturbed, greatly in pain, but accepting many symbols as essences. Knowing that love created all and that the great original Thought of love forms the heart of all that there is, we ask you to be satisfied only with the essences of things.

Thus may you find sunshine in dark places, and thus may your discrimination steer you from unexpected shadows which others may not see. It is your experience, your creation, your living we ask you to join with us in seeking the Creator, without fear and with an ever-mounting desire to touch again and again the wonderful light-filled mystery of consciousness. And now, because we have talked about a heavy word, a weighty, sad word, this symbol of despair that is evil, let us lighten our meditation before we move on. Let us release this question, for it troubles this instrument and may trouble others.

Let us turn to gaze upon the mark of the angels. What would that be, my children—except a smile. What is the truth and symbol of the truth—except a look of joy, for that which is, is love. We leave you in that love and in the light, and would speak with you further through the one known as Jim. We are those of Q’uo.

[indolering]

.

I agree, Scott.  anagogy is wrong to say that it's not wrong to get vaccinated.  It is wrong!  As sure as water is wet, vaccinations are an illuminati tactic to debilitate the human race, a genocidal program to cull the population.  Sorry, but that's the diabolical truth of the matter.  All I can say is do your due diligence.  I have.  And it's not what I want to believe but a true scientist, a sincere seeker of truth will follow the evidence wherever it leads.  Big Pharma is a Rockefeller creation as is modern education, both powerful vehicles for control of the population.  Again, do the research.  It's our duty not to cooperate with the forces of evil.  Learn who is the true enemy.  The Muslims?  Ha!  Guess again. 

[Ashim]

.

I agree, Scott.  anagogy is wrong to say that it's not wrong to get vaccinated.  It is wrong!  As sure as water is wet, vaccinations are an illuminati tactic to debilitate the human race, a genocidal program to cull the population.  Sorry, but that's the diabolical truth of the matter.  All I can say is do your due diligence.  I have.  And it's not what I want to believe but a true scientist, a sincere seeker of truth will follow the evidence wherever it leads.  Big Pharma is a Rockefeller creation as is modern education, both powerful vehicles for control of the population.  Again, do the research.  It's our duty not to cooperate with the forces of evil.  Learn who is the true enemy.  The Muslims?  Ha!  Guess again. 

<Material removed per moderator review.>


For your information if the Family should desire to "cull" anyone on this planet it could be done instantly, not by some outlandish vaccination scheme.
You really seem to underestimate the Illuminati power.

You don't even seem to understand what the term "due diligence" means.
It's a term used in business. It's part of what my wife and I do for a living.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_diligence

Have you had any personal experience that can back up any of your fear based transient theories? <Material removed per moderator review.>

Please tell us who the "real enemy" is then.