2007.03.25 The Female Orgasm

[Steppingfeet]

To Monica and Ankh, as a friend and fellow member I just want to beam some love into your tangle of misunderstanding. From my perception it seems that you're both frustrated with mutual misunderstanding, you're both striving to understand the other and communicate clearly, you're both attempting to be sensitive to the other's point of view, and yet you are both somehow, despite all efforts, unable to meet in the middle.

While it seems your attempts to communicate are being baffled, it is clear that neither of you is intending to mistreat the other, or miscontrue the other's words, or be deliberately evasive. You've just got a tangle of two strands of Christmas lights and it's anyone's guess how to best untangle them, or identify which strand belongs to who. These things happen sometimes in spite of our best efforts.

Although it's a mild-mannered mismatch of thoughts, not having clear communication is painful for an entities of strong blue-ray functioning, which both of you certainly are. (I've been in this baffled energy many, many times. It sucks.) Hope you can release the need to be understood so that we can continue playing on the swing sets of creation together without friction impeding our joy in the sun. : ) Love, me

PS: Didn't address Ali because, though his opinion is strong, the catalyst doesn't seem to be personal on his end. From my reading that is.

And please disregard if my opinion misses the mark. No seer into energy patterns am I.

[Monica]

I compared the sentence to the old and fortunately mostly forgotten idea that women need men to help them to think properly.

That would be an accurate comparison if I had said: "Men need women to teach them how to love" but that's not what I said.

I have tried to clarify but it's still being misunderstood, and I'm not going to let it bother me that I've been grossly misunderstood. I will offer only one suggestion: Sometimes it's helpful to consider that we sometimes choose to be offended, rather than truly understand what the other person is saying.

I won't be responding to any further discussion directed at my statement.

Peace to all.

[Monica]

Hope you can release the need to be understood so that we can continue playing on the swing sets of creation together without friction impeding our joy in the sun. : ) Love, me

Good advice, Gary. Done.

[Monica]

Wow! I just reread some of the 'sex addiction' thread and found this:

http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthrea...6#pid11936

Pablisimo has done a stupendous job of explaining exactly what I so clumsily flubbed up. This single post totally explains it. I agree with him 100%.

Thank you Pablisimo!

Might I suggest reading Pablisimo's most excellent post first, then going back to my original post that he was responding to.

Then check out Ashim's post right after mine, and Biu Tze's post right after that.

Isn't it amazing how the exact same words can be said, yet different people perceive them totally differently?

Edit: And more from Pablisimo:

http://www.bring4th.org/forums/showthrea...9#pid12079

Edit: I reread that whole thread, because the discussion was so amazingly insightful, deep, and respectful. Many people contributed to that discussion! One of Bring4th's best, in my opinion.

And incidentally, 6 men commented favorably about my specific statement, that was identical to what I said here that triggered such an uproar. 6 men! In addition to about 6+ more who said they loved the discussion overall. Not a single person was offended in that entire discussion. My point is simply that the same words can be construed differently by different people, based on their own biases and distortions.

And even more curiously, one of the participants in that discussion was Ali Quadir.

[Monica]

or be deliberately evasive.

Oh I was being deliberately evasive! Well actually, maybe discreet is a better word.

[JustLikeYou]

That post by Pablisimo was written two years ago today. Just saying.

[Monica]

That post by Pablisimo was written two years ago today. Just saying.

Oh wow I didn't even notice that! That has got to be significant! :idea:

[Ali Quadir]

Never mind Monica, I had hoped for a willingness on your side to look at this issue from my perspective, since I have looked at it through yours. Starting at the first post. And understood there is no real harm intended. I wish you'd do the same so you can see my point of view and understand my position. You express that you have no interest in doing so. I will adjust my expectations.

[Monica]

Never mind Monica, I had hoped for a willingness on your side to look at this issue from my perspective, since I have looked at it through yours. Starting at the first post. And understood there is no real harm intended. I wish you'd do the same so you can see my point of view and understand my position. You express that you have no interest in doing so. I will adjust my expectations.

This isn't about point of view. You are entitled to your point of view and I am entitled to mine.

However, neither of us has the right to insist that the other person is saying a certain thing, when they tell us that's not what they're saying.

I'm always happy to look at your views, which express your perspective.

However I'm not interested in your opinion of what *I* am saying, when you clearly are misunderstanding me.

In other words, I'm happy to consider your point of view, when you express it as your point of view.

I'm not willing to let you dictate to me what my point of view is.

Stick to your own views, and we'll be cool. Start telling me what my views are, and we're not cool.

To Ankh and Meerie: Since you agreed with Ali's above post, I will address you also: My words weren't offensive. Proof of that is that at least 3 other people commented favorably on the exact same words, to the point of being blown away by how 'insightful' they were. This shows that the words themselves weren't offensive, but in how they were perceived.

[Ali Quadir]

I'm done with this Monica.. If you are unable to see my point now then you never will..

I was never dictating your point of view.. You've imagined that and from that point on you went blind as a bull who sees a red flag. You literally only saw the parts of my messages that you could see as congruent with your anger.. The crazy thing is that right now it is you who is dictating my point of view... Not the other way round.. And yes this is only my opinion.

I am really disappointed.. I thought so much more of you...

[Diana]

I'm done with this Monica.. If you are unable to see my point now then you never will..

I was never dictating your point of view.. You've imagined that and from that point on you went blind as a bull who sees a red flag. You literally only saw the parts of my messages that you could see as congruent with your anger.. The crazy thing is that right now it is you who is dictating my point of view... Not the other way round.. And yes this is only my opinion.

I am really disappointed.. I thought so much more of you...

Ali, what are you talking about? The idea that Monica went blind as a bull is rather dramatic, don't you think, really? I have a suggestion, rather than blame Monica, why not, calmly and with love, try again to explain your point of view on the topic? We are all here to discuss. I love discussing. Let's discuss.

Instead of focusing, and refocusing on Monica's words, why not rephrase your words to support your views? We are all interested in your views. Could you also try and forgive Monica for what you interpret as offensive? I am absolutely sure she did not mean to offend you.

[Monica]

I'm done with this Monica.. If you are unable to see my point now then you never will..

I was never dictating your point of view.. You've imagined that and from that point on you went blind as a bull who sees a red flag. You literally only saw the parts of my messages that you could see as congruent with your anger.. The crazy thing is that right now it is you who is dictating my point of view... Not the other way round.. And yes this is only my opinion.

I am really disappointed.. I thought so much more of you...

Oh man, I can't believe this...MORE drama! On what I thought was a serious thread...

Ali, you're doing it again. Look at what you just wrote. "You, you, YOU."

Please quit telling me what *I* am doing or thinking. You have no right to do that. You just told me I was angry; but you're simply wrong about that. I was never angry at all.

I'm willing to see your point of view about the female orgasm (the topic of this thread). I'm NOT willing to see your point of view about ME personally.

I don't know how much clearer I can make it. I'm just incredulous that people would rather turn the discussion into a drama about a particular person, than actually discuss the topic. Why make it personal?

I'm interested in discussing the topic. I'm not interested in this petty drama because some people got their buttons pushed about something I said. Especially when I used those exact same words in the other thread and got a totally opposite reaction.

I'm out of this.

[Steppingfeet]

I'm done with this Monica.. If you are unable to see my point now then you never will..

I was never dictating your point of view.. You've imagined that and from that point on you went blind as a bull who sees a red flag. You literally only saw the parts of my messages that you could see as congruent with your anger.. The crazy thing is that right now it is you who is dictating my point of view... Not the other way round.. And yes this is only my opinion.

Mr. Ali Quadir, if I may offer my opinion: I disagree with this. Honestly I saw you responding to Monica in a way which said, "This is what you are saying Monica".

And Monica responded back saying, "Not so, jolly chap, I was actually saying so and so about such and such. You're misreading me."

And then you say, "No, my friend, I'm not saying what you just said, what I'm saying is actually this."

And round and round it goes.

What I would most like to speak to is this seed of separation called an assumption of intentional misintrepretation. I've found in my experience that the point at which the feelings begin to go sour and separation begins to cloud the vision usually coincides with a feeling that the other self is intentionally doing something or other to the self that is undesired. (We can be a lot more forgiving when we see unintentional and thus innocent undesired activity.)

I could be misreading the situation, but it seems that among multiple parties there is a sense that the other is intentionally being hard-headed and unwilling. Meanwhile, from my point of view, I see all three of you trying to meet the other, but due to whatever reason - your own innate distortions, gleeful negative entities disrupting the process, or Mercury retrograde - you three are unable to satisfy one another.

Also, saying as you said, "I am really disappointed.. I thought so much more of you..." makes a personal, disparaging remark that's unnecessary and doesn't serve the process, in my humble opinion. Who hears that they are now officially thought less than and feels closer to achieving reconciliation with the speaker, or feels supported, or feels more motivated to communicate?

I am no moral authority. I speak words of separation every day. If I as a fellow seeker could say one thing that would be considered, that's to trust the positive nature of the other and assume that the other is trying. Because as far as my limited vision can see into your quandary, all three of you are trying.

With love, Gary

[Ankh]

Because as far as my limited vision can see into your quandary, all three of you are trying.

Who is the third part?

[Steppingfeet]

Because as far as my limited vision can see into your quandary, all three of you are trying.

Who is the third part?

You, Monica, and Ali. Right?

[Tenet Nosce]

Sorry to interrupt the friendly spat, but as I started to read this thread I felt moved to point out that there is more than one kind of orgasm. According to my understanding, the orgasmic experience exists as a possibility on all six chakral levels. If I had to take a guess, I would say that female bodies experience orgasm more easily on the orange, green, and indigo rays, while male bodies have an easier time on the red, yellow, and blue rays. Of course, this would be a generality and in practice it is likely that every possible exception exists somewhere.

[Shemaya]

Sorry to interrupt the friendly spat, but as I started to read this thread I felt moved to point out that there is more than one kind of orgasm. According to my understanding, the orgasmic experience exists as a possibility on all six chakral levels. If I had to take a guess, I would say that female bodies experience orgasm more easily on the orange, green, and indigo rays, while male bodies have an easier time on the red, yellow, and blue rays. Of course, this would be a generality and in practice it is likely that every possible exception exists somewhere.

That makes sense, more than one kind. But I'm not so sure of the delineation based on chakras.....the energy system seems much more integrated to me than that, we just break it up into male/female, seven chakras to understand it, I think. To me it seems more like music, lots of different chords and possibilities of harmony.

[Monica]

Sorry to interrupt the friendly spat,

Oh thank you Tenet! I was hoping someone would interrupt it and get the discussion back on track!

but as I started to read this thread I felt moved to point out that there is more than one kind of orgasm.

Yes, and not only that, but the orgasmic experience changes and evolves, as the relationship evolves and as blockages are cleared.

According to my understanding, the orgasmic experience exists as a possibility on all six chakral levels. If I had to take a guess, I would say that female bodies experience orgasm more easily on the orange, green, and indigo rays, while male bodies have an easier time on the red, yellow, and blue rays. Of course, this would be a generality and in practice it is likely that every possible exception exists somewhere.

Interesting idea. And your idea coincides with the pattern of the kundalini (spiraled snakes).

[Tenet Nosce]

That makes sense, more than one kind. But I'm not so sure of the delineation based on chakras.....the energy system seems much more integrated to me than that, we just break it up into male/female, seven chakras to understand it, I think. To me it seems more like music, lots of different chords and possibilities of harmony.

That is interesting... to think about it in terms of music. For example, in the western system of music we are most familiar with there are seven notes in a scale and twelve in an octave. But in Indian music they recognize 22 different notes in an octave. Of course, in the ultimate sense one could tune a string to an infinite number of notes. Still... I do think there is some objective validity to the seven chakra system, based upon the anatomy and physiology of the human body.

Energetically speaking, I tend to think of male and female energy as counterrotating spirals. We can use terms like "clockwise" and "counterclockwise" to discern between the direction of rotation, however these terms are relative to perspective. For example, if I held up a clock in front of my chest and you were to look directly at it, you would see the hands moving clockwise. But let's say my body were translucent and you were standing behind me looking through the back of the clock. To that perspective, the hands would appear to be moving counterclockwise.

Beyond these rotational directions, there are other qualities which emerge from a spiral, such as contraction and expansion. Personally speaking, I tend to associate the clockwise direction with contraction and the counterclockwise with expansion, although I accept the possibility that another could see it the opposite way.

The contraction spiral is what I think of as male energy, while the expansion spiral as female energy. I also get a sense that these alternate in neighboring densities. So, for example, in 2D or 4D it is the female polarity that manifests as contracting energy and the male as expanding energy.

Since the body is a microcosm of the universe, I imagine that a similar dynamic occurs. I understand that chakras are manifestation of these counterrotating energies... so if we were to imagine two overlapping spirals moving in opposite directions this is what they would look like.

Now in any given chakra, there is going to be a predominance of male (contracting) or female (expanding) energy. Yet the energy of orgasm is always expanding... therefore it will be more easily noticed on those levels where male energy predominates and there is more resistance to flow.

I suppose there is no rule which says that the predominating energy on each level needs to alternate, however when I think of a person who is energetically balanced that is the image which comes to my mind.

Anyway, I don't mean to overwhelm you with theories and speculations. It's just what I go through when I am tracking down my thought processes to see where an idea came from.

---

Yes, and not only that, but the orgasmic experience changes and evolves, as the relationship evolves and as blockages are cleared.

Yes, that is very true. I have observed when partners are new to each other, there is a tendency to contract the abdomen during sex which can result in a more physically intense, but less emotionally satisfying orgasm. Not necessarily bad, but it can be confusing if one is not aware of what is going on. As the relationship progresses, and each learns to relax and trust their partner, the orgasms might become less physically intense and somebody might incorrectly perceive that something went "wrong". I must say I do think men are more prone to making this error as likely at that stage of the relationship is when the woman is just starting to enjoy sex. Of course, this can cause issues for a woman as well if she misreads the situation and thinks that men bolting just as soon as she starts to open herself up to them means that something is wrong with her.

So much suffering over such a simple misperceived thing. It's just a natural process. If one wants to have more physically intense orgasms, simply clench the abdomen as if one were in the grips of fear as the energy begins to rise. Nothing wrong with this from an ethical perspective, but I will say that there were a few times I took this to excess and the result was not entirely pleasant!

That also reminds me- there can be periods where orgasms just don't come as frequently or are as enjoyable. That's a normal process too, and can happen in both men and women.

[Monica]

Energetically speaking, I tend to think of male and female energy as counterrotating spirals. We can use terms like "clockwise" and "counterclockwise" to discern between the direction of rotation, however these terms are relative to perspective. For example, if I held up a clock in front of my chest and you were to look directly at it, you would see the hands moving clockwise. But let's say my body were translucent and you were standing behind me looking through the back of the clock. To that perspective, the hands would appear to be moving counterclockwise.

Beyond these rotational directions, there are other qualities which emerge from a spiral, such as contraction and expansion. Personally speaking, I tend to associate the clockwise direction with contraction and the counterclockwise with expansion, although I accept the possibility that another could see it the opposite way.

The contraction spiral is what I think of as male energy, while the expansion spiral as female energy. I also get a sense that these alternate in neighboring densities. So, for example, in 2D or 4D it is the female polarity that manifests as contracting energy and the male as expanding energy.

Since the body is a microcosm of the universe, I imagine that a similar dynamic occurs. I understand that chakras are manifestation of these counterrotating energies... so if we were to imagine two overlapping spirals moving in opposite directions this is what they would look like.

Now in any given chakra, there is going to be a predominance of male (contracting) or female (expanding) energy. Yet the energy of orgasm is always expanding... therefore it will be more easily noticed on those levels where male energy predominates and there is more resistance to flow.

I suppose there is no rule which says that the predominating energy on each level needs to alternate, however when I think of a person who is energetically balanced that is the image which comes to my mind.

Wow, that's a lot to assimilate! I'll have to ponder that.

So much suffering over such a simple misperceived thing. It's just a natural process. If one wants to have more physically intense orgasms, simply clench the abdomen as if one were in the grips of fear as the energy begins to rise. Nothing wrong with this from an ethical perspective, but I will say that there were a few times I took this to excess and the result was not entirely pleasant!

That also reminds me- there can be periods where orgasms just don't come as frequently or are as enjoyable. That's a normal process too, and can happen in both men and women.

Interesting observations. I don't really have anything to add because I've never observed these particular things. But it's cool how different the sexual experience can be for different people. Look at how we're all talking about 'the orgasm' but wouldn't it be wild if we weren't actually experiencing the same thing at all? Has anyone ever really compared the experience itself? Like they do with colors. We all think we're seeing the same blue, green, etc. but actually not everyone sees colors the same way.

I'm not volunteering! Just a random thought.

[Tenet Nosce]

Interesting observations. I don't really have anything to add because I've never observed these particular things. But it's cool how different the sexual experience can be for different people.

That's true. Sex comes up often enough during consultations to see how unique it is to each person. Yet themes do emerge. For example, I get a fair amount of questions about dietary supplements for sexual enhancement, which along with weight loss and athletic enhancement supplements, are one of the fastest growing areas of demand in the marketplace.

So people are buying tons and tons of this stuff. Most of it is crap, but besides that the point is that I think so much of the demand grows out of people's feeling that if they're not having daily orgasm-fests that something is wrong with them. Many people buy into the oversexed images promoted by the media..

[Monica]

That's true. Sex comes up often enough during consultations to see how unique it is to each person. Yet themes do emerge. For example, I get a fair amount of questions about dietary supplements for sexual enhancement, which along with weight loss and athletic enhancement supplements, are one of the fastest growing areas of demand in the marketplace.

So people are buying tons and tons of this stuff. Most of it is crap, but besides that the point is that I think so much of the demand grows out of people's feeling that if they're not having daily orgasm-fests that something is wrong with them. Many people buy into the oversexed images promoted by the media..

What is orgasm? Ra/Q'uo have stated that it's a gift they gave to us, so that we could get a taste of what it feels like in the higher densities. But how is it described? Cosmic bliss? What does that mean?

Maybe we should start a poll...do you feel it in the genitalia only? in the head? In the whole body? What are you feeling emotionally and spiritually, while your body enjoys this energy? do you feel the energy rising thru the chakras like the kundalini snake? is it an instantaneous explosion, and all over in a moment, or does it 'come' in waves upon waves that ripple out like the ocean, never ceasing? etc.

And what does this mean in terms of chakra opennness vs blockages? and what does it mean in terms of relationship? At what point might one realize that they are an 'adept'? What did Ra mean by adept and how is that relevant to us?

And getting back to the topic of this thread: Why are there 2 genders? Why is the female orgasm so powerful? How can we (male or female) honor that? What is the catalyst for men? how can men experience the sort of bliss that is normal (maybe even effortless) for women? And what exactly IS normal for women? Why is it so seemingly unbalanced? Is it fair for women to have deeper orgasmic experiences? Is there a way for men to have experiences just as deep? Why was it designed that way? Could this be an important catalyst? Do all women experience orgasms the same way? What is the significance of men's orgasms being different? What does it mean for men to 'worship at the altar of the Goddess'? How are women strengthened by absorption of yang essence? What is the elixir?

Might be interesting to explore...in a spiritual context of course!

[Ali Quadir]

@Bring4th_GLB
I should not have posted my last post.. It's a true reflection of my emotions. But indeed it is not helpfull. So I offer my apologies.

Again, I never was dictating to Monica what her position was. I have often directly said that it was clearly not her position as far as I was concerned. But I did confront her with what she was saying. She may not have intended it like she did. But she certainly came across like that. To me, and to a degree to Ankh aswell.

Halfway that discussion I backed out just accepting that she did not intend to say the things she said.

The last few posts were directly relating to what happened in MY mind relating to the things she had said. Monica was unfortunately unwilling or unable to see this as anything other than criticism. What I was hoping for was "I can understand how you came to your conclusion, even if you were wrong." What I got was "Stop dictating my point of view to me!"

What you read as you/you/you, was you/me/you/me my attempt to explain the process. And you do need "you" for that. The last two posts were pure frustration at the inability to get my point across.

I certainly never accused Monica of being sexist.. I made it clear from the start that I know she is not. However, I also made it clear that some of the things she claimed are sexist in nature. Even if they are accepted by society as fact.

The degree to which I was offended was that in the end, by insisting that I was dictating her point of view, she was in fact dictating mine. My attempts to clarify myself were only interpreted as further attempts to dictate her point of view. Which is certainly not how it was intended.

Instead of focusing, and refocusing on Monica's words, why not rephrase your words to support your views? We are all interested in your views.

Thank you Diana.. I will accept your invitation.

Since orgasm is a psychological reflex which occurs if conditions are met, the psychology of individuals and society is relevant. My point was that society is currently structured in a way where women often end up in a passive position. It's easy for a guy to achieve orgasm because since he's active he can mostly meet the conditions himself. For a woman it's less easy. Her conditions are the result of the guys behavior, so this requires either good communication, mind reading or a role reversal.

This is indicative of a larger problem in society. Men and women are not just equals, they're also two halves of a circle, meaning that if one gender moves the other either moves to adapt or friction is caused. This is called the batle between the sexes but a dance would be a more appropriate analogy.

The best position for both genders as far as I can see is one where they are not as far apart as society dictates. It's clear that men and women are for the most part interchangeable. Given equal practice men and women are equally able to handle emotions and physical situations. Men can be caregivers and women can be providers. There is a polarity but this is hard to define. If you try to define what a "Real man" or "Real woman" really is... Then you'll note that anything a real man or woman is, the other gender requires as well.

There is much more to say about the behaviors of the genders in our society. And it's a very interesting topic. Long story short, I think there's a gender spectrum and not so much a polarity. But I think it's best not go off into a rant here.. Relating to the topic I think that women who are less inclined to take the passive role are more able to achieve orgasm. But this often opens a can of worms. Including all kinds of insecurities by both genders.

[Shemaya]

That is interesting... to think about it in terms of music. For example, in the western system of music we are most familiar with there are seven notes in a scale and twelve in an octave. But in Indian music they recognize 22 different notes in an octave. Of course, in the ultimate sense one could tune a string to an infinite number of notes. Still... I do think there is some objective validity to the seven chakra system, based upon the anatomy and physiology of the human body.

yes, that taps into my thought...that the categorization we have is based on a system that can be described in a infinite number of notes/ vibrations, and harmonies. So the the expression of energy can be like a symphony or an acoustic guitar....mutiple layers and qualities of sound, or very simplified. As far as an objective validity to the chakra system, I think the energies blend like the light spectrum or sound spectrum, the specific delineation between say orange and yellow is a bit arbitrary...I think that's why we see different spiritual teachings ascribing qualities and function of each chakra differently, ie Ra seems to ascribe sexuality to the root chakra, but other teachings I have come across would emphasize the sacral chakra. And I would think it's a blending of all the chakra energies, or at least it can be, but is not in all experiences.

Energetically speaking, I tend to think of male and female energy as counterrotating spirals. We can use terms like "clockwise" and "counterclockwise" to discern between the direction of rotation, however these terms are relative to perspective.....

Beyond these rotational directions, there are other qualities which emerge from a spiral, such as contraction and expansion.

I prefer to think of the complementary energies in our physical/energy bodies as yin and yang. Simply because of the cultural and conditioned baggage behind the terms "male " and "female". Related to that, both men and women have the male/female energies within them. I think we have a strong tendency to ascribe yin to women, and yang to male, but in truth I think we each have both.

Thinking from a physiologic perspective I can think of two mechanism that have been described to have these two basic movements. The primary respiratory mechanism, also known as the cranio-sacral rhythm is decribed as both an expansion/contraction and a inward/ outward rotation. When tuned into it you can feel that very thing on the body , expand/contract or internal/external rotation. I have also found a similar teaching in Anusara yoga, an inward spiral and outward spiral is taught. That is in viewing the body from the front. From a side view, there are counterotational spirals as gears spinning. That is really interesting perspective -wise, because we tend to think of chakras as front/back, but that is probably oversimplified.

I suppose there is no rule which says that the predominating energy on each level needs to alternate, however when I think of a person who is energetically balanced that is the image which comes to my mind.

interesting, I would add that with an energetically balanced person there would be and equal and symmetric relationship of the complementary spirals/ rotation.

Yes, and not only that, but the orgasmic experience changes and evolves, as the relationship evolves and as blockages are cleared.

Yes, that is very true. [/quote]

Yes for sure, a long-term relationship is a wonderful opportunity to clear blockages and evolve and create more expansive and expressive experiences. For myself, when I think back at how needy I was when I was 22, how I needed my husband to "complete me". Now I feel whole within myself and the experience is not based on need for me at all ( I think, at least what i am consciously aware of)

---

Hey Ali, I appreciate your gentle way of expressing yourself and communicating (related to the communication difficulties in this thread.) I can totally relate to communication difficulties, a huge part of my incarnational lessons this time around
Hearing and being heard, heart, ear art, earth. I try to keep all those in mind when I am having trouble.

Since orgasm is a psychological reflex which occurs if conditions are met, the psychology of individuals and society is relevant. My point was that society is currently structured in a way where women often end up in a passive position. It's easy for a guy to achieve orgasm because since he's active he can mostly meet the conditions himself. For a woman it's less easy. Her conditions are the result of the guys behavior, so this requires either good communication, mind reading or a role reversal.

Things changed for me the less needy I became, in all ways, emotionally, psychology, physically. I am a professional and can take care of myself financially and physically, so that need is met for me. I was very emotionally needy when I was young and had the expectation that my husband would fill those needs, and to some extent it is good and proper that we meet each others emotional needs, but not to the extent of my unrealistic expectations at the time. So we have worked through alot of those lower chakra issues, not to say that we are perfect in the way we relate, but much better. My spiritual path and work has opened up our relationship immensely, to the extent that there is actual physical , grounded changes in my body, so that has made things better for both of us.

a dance would be a more appropriate analogy.

Absolutely! love that analogy...I am battle weary myself

a "Real man" or "Real woman" really is... Then you'll note that anything a real man or woman is, the other gender requires as well.

Amen to that! One thing that expands my heart is seeing a father care and nurture his children, a really beautiful thing.

Long story short, I think there's a gender spectrum and not so much a polarity.

Yes most definitely...I think because we all have both energies within us operating all the time whether called yin/yang, male /female. My conflict with men as a gender has essentially been my conflict with my inner "male"/animus.

[Ali Quadir]

Hey Ali, I appreciate your gentle way of expressing yourself and communicating (related to the communication difficulties in this thread.)

Thank you for your kind words Shemaya.

I can totally relate to communication difficulties, a huge part of my incarnational lessons this time around Hearing and being heard, heart, ear art, earth. I try to keep all those in mind when I am having trouble.

I'm still learning a great deal in this regard. My basic nature is that of a loner, I avoid people unless I push myself towards them. I'm callibrating all kinds of variables but people aren't all the same, sometimes it works great, sometimes it just doesn't work at all.

Since orgasm is a psychological reflex which occurs if conditions are met, the psychology of individuals and society is relevant. My point was that society is currently structured in a way where women often end up in a passive position. It's easy for a guy to achieve orgasm because since he's active he can mostly meet the conditions himself. For a woman it's less easy. Her conditions are the result of the guys behavior, so this requires either good communication, mind reading or a role reversal.

Things changed for me the less needy I became, in all ways, emotionally, psychology, physically. I am a professional and can take care of myself financially and physically, so that need is met for me. I was very emotionally needy when I was young and had the expectation that my husband would fill those needs, and to some extent it is good and proper that we meet each others emotional needs, but not to the extent of my unrealistic expectations at the time. So we have worked through alot of those lower chakra issues, not to say that we are perfect in the way we relate, but much better. My spiritual path and work has opened up our relationship immensely, to the extent that there is actual physical , grounded changes in my body, so that has made things better for both of us.

I noticed this too. As the two partners are more succesfull in their individual lives their life as a couple gets better. Self respect allows us to enjoy the respect another person gives us more.

a dance would be a more appropriate analogy.

Absolutely! love that analogy...I am battle weary myself

Hehe, me too

a "Real man" or "Real woman" really is... Then you'll note that anything a real man or woman is, the other gender requires as well.

Amen to that! One thing that expands my heart is seeing a father care and nurture his children, a really beautiful thing.

Don't forget the mothers! Their nurturing and loving interactions with their children are also heart warming. I'm sad that in this society we consider it special when a man does it.. But men really do it all the time. A man's bond to his child is as overwhelming as it is for a woman.

This should not be special. Is it like saying a black guy is really decent... Like saying a jewish person is not stingy at all. Or suggesting that a woman is surprisingly capable. It betrays our expectations.

I catch myself doing stuff like that all the time. It's really sneaky. Last it happened I complimented my girlfriend on her ability to construct some ikea furniture.

Long story short, I think there's a gender spectrum and not so much a polarity.

Yes most definitely...I think because we all have both energies within us operating all the time whether called yin/yang, male /female.

But Yin and Yang kind of suggest that polarity. I really really meant a spectrum in the sense that the polarity is illusory! It is caused by putting two people together and it is different in each couple. Some couples have it reversed. It exists, but only when two people are together. And they don't even need to be opposite genders. Same sex couples are as natural as different sex couples.

My conflict with men as a gender has essentially been my conflict with my inner "male"/animus.

As was mine! And the problems I was experiencing in relationships with women was part and parcel to my conflict with my own gender.

[Shemaya]

a "Real man" or "Real woman" really is... Then you'll note that anything a real man or woman is, the other gender requires as well.

Amen to that! One thing that expands my heart is seeing a father care and nurture his children, a really beautiful thing.

Don't forget the mothers! Their nurturing and loving interactions with their children are also heart warming. I'm sad that in this society we consider it special when a man does it.. But men really do it all the time. A man's bond to his child is as overwhelming as it is for a woman.

This should not be special. Is it like saying a black guy is really decent... Like saying a jewish person is not stingy at all. Or suggesting that a woman is surprisingly capable. It betrays our expectations.

Yes I see your point, noting that as something"special" is a reflection of my programmed cultural conditioning, it really is just natural for men to nurture their children. It's really a natural everyday occurrence. Though, my heart feels full when I see mama love too...

I am seeing it more and more, in my partner and others...the natural nurturing love that is free from cultural biases.

But Yin and Yang kind of suggest that polarity. I really really meant a spectrum in the sense that the polarity is illusory! It is caused by putting two people together and it is different in each couple. Some couples have it reversed. It exists, but only when two people are together. And they don't even need to be opposite genders. Same sex couples are as natural as different sex couples.

and the physical reinforces that illusion, because our bodies look different, so it is harder to step out of the illusion in order to integrate the polarities. I am female and I think along the spectrum that I could use some more yang to get balanced. In my life, I have tended to be less accepting of my "yang" expressions.

My conflict with men as a gender has essentially been my conflict with my inner "male"/animus.

As was mine! And the problems I was experiencing in relationships with women was part and parcel to my conflict with my own gender.

yes, integrating both energies within is certainly a process and states of non-integration cause conflict, at least from my experience.

[Ali Quadir]

Yes I see your point, noting that as something"special" is a reflection of my programmed cultural conditioning, it really is just natural for men to nurture their children. It's really a natural everyday occurrence.

Exactly it's tricky isn't it? We are perfectly willing and able to be free from it. Yet everyone with possibly the exception of the most enlightened among us still has this bias inside. I fear it will take quite some time for us to decondition our society from the imposed archetypes.

These are not even the problematic patterns. No one is going to mind that we occasionally show some very subtle form of bias. And I see many couples who play with their gender roles as a thing to derrive joy from. "Get back in the kitchen you woman!" Or "Go and kill me a mammoth honey." Playing with something helps us to release ourselves from it.

The subconscious games we play without knowing it are far worse.

Though, my heart feels full when I see mama love too...

Of course It is a direct window on divine love.

I am seeing it more and more, in my partner and others...the natural nurturing love that is free from cultural biases.

We're so going to get there! I have perfect faith. Maybe our generation isn't quite there yet.. But the next one is going to take an equally big step...

But Yin and Yang kind of suggest that polarity. I really really meant a spectrum in the sense that the polarity is illusory! It is caused by putting two people together and it is different in each couple. Some couples have it reversed. It exists, but only when two people are together. And they don't even need to be opposite genders. Same sex couples are as natural as different sex couples.

and the physical reinforces that illusion, because our bodies look different, so it is harder to step out of the illusion in order to integrate the polarities. I am female and I think along the spectrum that I could use some more yang to get balanced. In my life, I have tended to be less accepting of my "yang" expressions.

We're only fighting ourselves in the end.. I think the best thing is to play with it.. Not take it too serious... Experiment. See what happens if we try things out I did.. It's great fun, educational, and occasionally a bit scary..

One of my issues was having an enormous unrealistic respect for women. You'd think you can't have too much respect, but you can and it gets you in abusive relationships. The last year I had great fun telling women I'm not going to do what they ask for. Or doing the absolute opposite of what I was supposed to do.. "Aren't you going to buy me a drink?" "Nah, but you can buy me one." "It is customary for the gentleman to buy a drink for a lady." "Yes, but why stick to those quaint notions, I see you as an independant and capable woman!"

Of course you get quite thirsty after a few of these exchanges. But at least I had fun. And it filters out the abusers.

My conflict with men as a gender has essentially been my conflict with my inner "male"/animus.

As was mine! And the problems I was experiencing in relationships with women was part and parcel to my conflict with my own gender.

yes, integrating both energies within is certainly a process and states of non-integration cause conflict, at least from my experience.

It is so true... Non integration is disharmony, friction and conflict.

But I don't think you really need both energies to be perfectly balanced, as long as your own energies flow forth without being stopped by artificial blocks. We're of course all a bit male and a bit female. But some are more male than others. And some are more female...

There is this mans movement where men go and sit together to talk about feelings.. And many men come back from it refreshed and uplifted... But it simply does not work for everyone. Some prefer to have a good natured friendly fight, involving axes, blunt ones of course, no sense in actually killing your friends. And there's a surprising amount of women there, partly because it's fun to swing an axe around partly because they love the smell of testosterone.

Neither one is better than the other... I believe we need the freedom to be ourselves. Not to be pushed into any pattern, not even a spiritually inspired one. Mind you the last really abusive one was also spiritually inspired.

Though for men who can't access their repressed feminine side or women who can't fully use their repressed masculine qualities it can be a very good thing I agree. It's just that some guys really need help being more masculine, they already are loving people in touch with their emotions. In the end it's good if it helps you to be more of who you are.

[Tenet Nosce]

I think we have a strong tendency to ascribe yin to women, and yang to male, but in truth I think we each have both.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply! Just a quick note to say I would concur that we each have both.

[Monica]

I think we have a strong tendency to ascribe yin to women, and yang to male, but in truth I think we each have both.

Look at the Yin/Yang symbol. There is a bit of yin in the yang, and a bit of yang in the yin.

[Shemaya]

I think we have a strong tendency to ascribe yin to women, and yang to male, but in truth I think we each have both.

Look at the Yin/Yang symbol. There is a bit of yin in the yang, and a bit of yang in the yin.
[/quote]

True. I was thinking though that each of us, man or woman, has the potential of full and balanced integration of both yin and yang. So in other words, if we begin to think of each other as potentially embodying both qualities regardless of gender, we move towards relationships based less on cultural programming and more on our true nature.