Our Planet is 4D Now? Looks the same to me.

[zenmaster]

However, just to be clear, I'm not "guessing" when I say these energies have "environmental effects".

The general principle is that an energy of a higher order is able to influence the energy of a lower order because it subsumes, in consciousness, the potentials offered by the lower order. It is pure conjecture to make any inference of principle whatsoever without actual supporting evidence. Thus "a guess".

[anagogy]

However, just to be clear, I'm not "guessing" when I say these energies have "environmental effects".

The general principle is that an energy of a higher order is able to influence the energy of a lower order because it subsumes, in consciousness, the potentials offered by the lower order. It is pure conjecture to make any inference of principle whatsoever without actual supporting evidence. Thus "a guess".

If you want to call it a guess, go for it. You seem pretty attached to calling it that, so if thats what satisfies you, more power to you. However, I disagree completely.

Your assumption is that there is no evidence. This is not the case. It is just not evidence that you, personally, accept as evidence. Not all evidence is empirically based, or open to observation by your outward physical senses. There is intuitive evidence, for those open to see it. This knowledge isn't arrived at by the same channels, but it is still evidence, of a certain variety. This doesn't mean the interpretation of the "observed" (be it inner or outer) is always right. Any of us could be wrong about pretty much anything. Discernment is the real work.

So if I make a statement, it is, in an ideal situation, based on evidence I have found to be reasonably reliable.

So not a guess, in my humble opinion.

[zenmaster]

So if I make a statement, it is, in an ideal situation, based on evidence I have found to be reasonably reliable.

No need to become offended. If you don't provide any evidence that does not mean I think there is no evidence. And further, this red herring business of what then may or may not constitute evidence is completely beside the point. No one ever brought it up or implied it - so there is an "attachment" to that concept as well. See how that works?

[Patrick]

we need money.. we need a house, and in that house we have to pay for stuff to live in it.

Hmm hmm. We also need large amounts of food still, I get so hungry sustaining myself on just veggies, I still need meat too! So I don't know if my body has changed or if my perceptions have changed or anything.

There's an Amerindian reservation close to where I live. Some of them do not need money. They hunt for food, while having great respect for the animals and nature. I admit that it's a very small few of them that decided to live this way, but still.

So keep it simple ! Just live and glory in all that this planet has to offer at this time in its evolution. For these few Amerindians it's what I said and for others it could mean to use computers, cars, eating fruits, eating hotdogs, offer flowers, use a can opener , iPhone, weight lifting, etc...

Just LOVE, LIVE and let live.

---

So if I make a statement, it is, in an ideal situation, based on evidence I have found to be reasonably reliable.

No need to become offended. If you don't provide any evidence that does not mean I think there is no evidence. And further, this red herring business of what then may or may not constitute evidence is completely beside the point. No one ever brought it up or implied it - so there is an "attachment" to that concept as well. See how that works?

Well my friend. You certainly make a useful mirror.

[zenmaster]

Well my friend. You certainly make a useful mirror.

I think it's f***ing hilarious, esp. combined with the "likes" and so on. And no, I am not laughing "at" them. In the course of development, I think people go through phases of experience and at each phase of learning to accept self, think they "know" something in some truthful, universal sense. To me, that's quite funny because it is a deep but temporary ego attachment, which yes ultimately serves as a mirror. (even funnier when prefaced with the royal "we" or "indeed this is so") Eventually that aspect of self must be confronted. Here in 3D we tend to unconsciously use other people for that purpose, due to our laziness at acknowledging catalyst.

[Patrick]

Well my friend. You certainly make a useful mirror.

I think it's f***ing hilarious, esp. combined with the "likes" and so on. And no, I am not laughing "at" them. In the course of development, I think people go through phases of experience and at each phase of learning to accept self, think they "know" something in some truthful, universal sense. To me, that's quite funny because it is a deep but temporary ego attachment, which yes ultimately serves as a mirror. (even funnier when prefaced with the royal "we" or "indeed this is so") Eventually that aspect of self must be confronted. Here in 3D we tend to unconsciously use other people for that purpose, due to our laziness at acknowledging catalyst.

...many will feel that it is foolish to seek to love all beings. For is there not evil in this world? It is foolish to move intuitively in a world where reason wrests its reward from all. It is foolish to seek to give the self full of love to those whom you do not know. And yet, my friends, is it not foolish to love the Creator that you have not yet met? Is it foolish to seek the heart of love when love is that force which has created all that is? Is it foolish to walk upon the dusty trail of the seeker of truth when that trail so often seems isolated and alone, yet when explored fully is filled with fellow seekers and pilgrims who walk that same trail and who seek in that same vein to love without end, to give without stint, and to be in harmony with all that there is?...

Yes I am fool indeed and I like it this way.

[zenmaster]

Yes I am fool indeed and I like it this way.

I think the main idea is to learn/teach or to seek and to promote consciousness, regardless of disposition.

[Patrick]

Yes I am fool indeed and I like it this way.

I think the main idea is to learn/teach or to seek and to promote consciousness, regardless of disposition.

Sounds like the life all are living here and now.

[zenmaster]

Yes I am fool indeed and I like it this way.

I think the main idea is to learn/teach or to seek and to promote consciousness, regardless of disposition.

Sounds like the life all are living here and now.

"it is well to hope that the other-self is grasping that which it has gone to some trouble to offer itself; that is, the catalyst which it desires to use for the purpose of evolution."

[native]

"It is impossible to help another being directly. It is only possible to make catalyst available in whatever form, the most important being the radiation of realization of oneness with the Creator from the self, less important being information such as we share with you."

I used to think "from" meant active teaching, especially personal bias, but I'm now of the understanding that it means you are to intimately examine what the other is presenting you about yourself, find the oneness, and in that way learn/teach. The majority of teaching seems to be more of an inner journey, hence radiation from the self. That was always obvious, but I'm finding it is more complex than I once thought. For instance, if I feel an overt need to teach, the more I pay attention I realize I'm actually being offered an opportunity to learn.

"There is then no personality in the sense with which the adept begins its learn/teaching. As the consciousness of the indigo ray becomes more crystalline, more work may be done; more may be expressed from intelligent infinity."

On a forum like this we can be more open however.

[zenmaster]

"It is impossible to help another being directly. It is only possible to make catalyst available in whatever form, the most important being the radiation of realization of oneness with the Creator from the self, less important being information such as we share with you."

I used to think "from" meant active teaching, especially personal bias, but I'm now of the understanding that it means you are to intimately examine what the other is presenting you about yourself, find the oneness, and in that way learn/teach. The majority of teaching seems to be more of an inner journey, hence radiation from the self. That was always obvious, but I'm finding it is more complex than I once thought. For instance, if I feel an overt need to teach, the more I pay attention I realize I'm actually being offered an opportunity to learn.

"There is then no personality in the sense with which the adept begins its learn/teaching. As the consciousness of the indigo ray becomes more crystalline, more work may be done; more may be expressed from intelligent infinity."

"Sounds like the life all are living here and now." doesn't quite cut it. Well, it says about the same thing as "all is one". It's the familiar appeal-to-the-suggestion-of-infinities meme, which of course we do not actually appreciate in 3D.

[Patrick]

..."Sounds like the life all are living here and now." doesn't quite cut it. Well, it says about the same thing as "all is one". It's the familiar appeal-to-the-suggestion-of-infinities meme, which of course we do not actually appreciate in 3D.

Don't you think there is a way ?

Maybe like this.

...This game can only be won by those who lose their cards in the melting influence of love; can only be won by those who lay their pleasures, their limitations, their all upon the table face up and say inwardly: “All, all of you players, each other-self, whatever your hand, I love you.” This is the game: to know, to accept, to forgive, to balance, and to open the self in love. This cannot be done without the forgetting, for it would carry no weight in the life of the mind/body/spirit beingness totality.

[zenmaster]

..."Sounds like the life all are living here and now." doesn't quite cut it. Well, it says about the same thing as "all is one". It's the familiar appeal-to-the-suggestion-of-infinities meme, which of course we do not actually appreciate in 3D.

Don't you think there is a way ?

Maybe like this.

...This game can only be won by those who lose their cards in the melting influence of love; can only be won by those who lay their pleasures, their limitations, their all upon the table face up and say inwardly: “All, all of you players, each other-self, whatever your hand, I love you.” This is the game: to know, to accept, to forgive, to balance, and to open the self in love. This cannot be done without the forgetting, for it would carry no weight in the life of the mind/body/spirit beingness totality.

Sounds like what we're already doing, right?

[Patrick]

..."Sounds like the life all are living here and now." doesn't quite cut it. Well, it says about the same thing as "all is one". It's the familiar appeal-to-the-suggestion-of-infinities meme, which of course we do not actually appreciate in 3D.

Don't you think there is a way ?

Maybe like this.

...This game can only be won by those who lose their cards in the melting influence of love; can only be won by those who lay their pleasures, their limitations, their all upon the table face up and say inwardly: “All, all of you players, each other-self, whatever your hand, I love you.” This is the game: to know, to accept, to forgive, to balance, and to open the self in love. This cannot be done without the forgetting, for it would carry no weight in the life of the mind/body/spirit beingness totality.

Sounds like what we're already doing, right?

I believe that's what most are seeking. Of course, some are seeking on another path.

[Horuseus]

4D Earth has always been here, just like the 4th Density Spectrum of your 'Light' (Electromagnetic) body has always been present. So has 5D/6D, and the reverse etc. The 'Nested' analogy mentioned by Pickle in another thread is a good way of visualizing this.

What is missing is the 'Awareness', just like phasing out will move you onto the Astral Plane. The reality was always been there, we simply were not been aware of it. The needle point on the FM Radio is moving up and down in tandem, it needs focus and to tune into the 4th density frequency on the spectrum. The current state of the collective is one which is erratic, but surely 'zeroing in' on the 4D Channel.

It is a reality which is now moving into activation in our timeframe. Though when you consider the illusory nature of time, one will know it was always here.

[zenmaster]

4D Earth has always been here,

Actually, no, it hasn't. That's the whole point of cycles.

[Patrick]

4D Earth has always been here,

Actually, no, it hasn't. That's the whole point of cycles.

Then would you agree that 4D Earth has always been, but not here yet ?

[Horuseus]

4D Earth has always been here,

Actually, no, it hasn't.

That would only be applicable to a linear view of time.

It is still here nonetheless, It is only coming into activation for the collective now. What density do you propose you are at when you delocalize your consciousness from your body and start having OBE's roaming around Earth?

That's the whole point of cycles.

Please clarify.

Time isn't applicable to Cycles. You will find the beginning converges with the end. Hence folk being able to repeat 3D.

[zenmaster]

4D Earth has always been here,

Actually, no, it hasn't. That's the whole point of cycles.

Then would you agree that 4D Earth has always been, but not here yet ?

Understand that 4D is a function of the logos *and* the actual cycle of movement within the galaxy. "The fourth density is a vibrational spectrum. Your time/space continuum has spiraled your planetary sphere and your, what we would call galaxy, what you call star, into this vibration."

---

4D Earth has always been here,

Actually, no, it hasn't.

That would only be applicable to a linear view of time.

Which you are using.

[Conifer16]

4D Earth has always been here,

Actually, no, it hasn't. That's the whole point of cycles.

It has always been a potential reality though? right?

[Horuseus]

I don't see things from a purely 3D physical standpoint, or what my 'brain' sees. That implies limits for the self. I do not wish to impose limits.

You ignored my previous Q? It would shed light on current discussion. Asserting 4D isn't here is like stating the Astral planes do not exist. What you are stating may be true on one 'bandwidth' of reality, but certainly not all. 5D is already here, and is the density your Guides reside upon; time does not exist in the way we consider it there, which is why they are instantly with you at a 'thought' (Like an 'arc' linking between the potential that is two points of consciousness).

The Infinite nature of the simultaneity being played out in the Universe from a quantum perspective, the ramifications of which mean that all scenarios are being played out yet at the same time yet none is one Humans will inevitably have difficulty wrapping their heads around.

[zenmaster]

4D Earth has always been here,

Actually, no, it hasn't. That's the whole point of cycles.

It has always been a potential reality though? right?

Yes with the proper conditions which can't be reduced to "awareness" in any meaningful way. That's yet another appeal to infinities of the new-age meme.

[Patrick]

...
Yes with the proper conditions which can't be reduced to "awareness" in any meaningful way. That's yet another appeal to infinities of the new-age meme.

Zen, do you subscribe to objectivity ?

[zenmaster]

...
Yes with the proper conditions which can't be reduced to "awareness" in any meaningful way. That's yet another appeal to infinities of the new-age meme.

Zen, do you subscribe to objectivity ?

What do you mean by that?

[Karl]

What's a meme and what's a logos?

---

Also Zenmaster: Have you studied logic? Where is the basis/origin of the skill you have organising and structuring language based information? (Not an attack I genuinly want to know so I can research it)

[Patrick]

...
Yes with the proper conditions which can't be reduced to "awareness" in any meaningful way. That's yet another appeal to infinities of the new-age meme.

Zen, do you subscribe to objectivity ?

What do you mean by that?

Sorry my friend, I should have put a link. Here it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivity_(philosophy)

[GentleReckoning]

What's a meme and what's a logos?

---

Also Zenmaster: Have you studied logic? Where is the basis/origin of the skill you have organising and structuring language based information? (Not an attack I genuinly want to know so I can research it)

Meme, an idea that permeates mass consciousness. Most internet jokes are considered memes.

A Logos is the part of infinity that is a super-massive star at the center of a galaxy. Our sun is a sub-logos.

[anagogy]

No need to become offended.

I wasn't offended. Sorry if you got that impression. This dialog hasn't spurred much emotion in me, to be honest with you.

If you don't provide any evidence that does not mean I think there is no evidence. And further, this red herring business of what then may or may not constitute evidence is completely beside the point. No one ever brought it up or implied it - so there is an "attachment" to that concept as well. See how that works?

Actually I don't have any clue what you are talking about. You said, "It is pure conjecture to make any inference of principle whatsoever without actual supporting evidence." That's why I brought up the topic of what constitutes evidence, because you were under the impression that I was guessing (which wouldn't involve any evidence). And that wasn't accurate, from my perspective. I have intuitive evidence, and validation from my own "sources". I consider channeling to be a certain kind of "evidence", I consider remote viewing to constitute a kind of "evidence", and I also consider past life memories to constitute a kind of "evidence". Perhaps I haven't shared what precisely those sources are, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

If anything your statement here is the diversion, with its attempt to restrict the nature of the dialog. Somebody did bring it up, I did, I'm a someone. I know, its shocking.

[zenmaster]

Asserting 4D isn't here is like stating the Astral planes do not exist.

No it isn't at all. The astral is not 4D. It's part of the 3D inner planes.

---

If you don't provide any evidence that does not mean I think there is no evidence. And further, this red herring business of what then may or may not constitute evidence is completely beside the point. No one ever brought it up or implied it - so there is an "attachment" to that concept as well. See how that works?

Actually I don't have any clue what you are talking about. You said, "It is pure conjecture to make any inference of principle whatsoever without actual supporting evidence." That's why I brought up the topic of what constitutes evidence, because you were under the impression that I was guessing (which wouldn't involve any evidence).

No, I was not under the impression you were guessing, so it seems you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Amazing how that works. I was trying to explain guessing, not implying that you were guessing that's why I asked the question.

---

...
Yes with the proper conditions which can't be reduced to "awareness" in any meaningful way. That's yet another appeal to infinities of the new-age meme.

Zen, do you subscribe to objectivity ?

What do you mean by that?

Sorry my friend, I should have put a link. Here it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivity_(philosophy)

No. If I subscribe to anything it'd be dialectical monism.

---

But to really answer your question, the subjective realm of experience enters around the same time the heart chakra opens here. In Spiral Dynamics, it's the "green vMeme". People that are just starting to experience subjective reality tend to see everything according to that perspective and inflate its significance in order to eventually appreciate it more fully. That's funny also. It's a stage.

[anagogy]

No, I was not under the impression you were guessing, so it seems you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

So when you said:

The general principle is that an energy of a higher order is able to influence the energy of a lower order because it subsumes, in consciousness, the potentials offered by the lower order. It is pure conjecture to make any inference of principle whatsoever without actual supporting evidence. Thus "a guess".

You weren't under the impression that my inference of principle was a guess?

Alrighty then.

Amazing how that works. I was trying to explain guessing, not implying that you were guessing that's why I asked the question.

Okay, and the reason you were trying to explain guessing was because..........?

I think you are putting the cart before the horse.