2007.03.25 The Female Orgasm

[Ali Quadir]

People often don't even recognize this fact...

I see what you are pointing out. I am female, so as a male, could you rephrase my supposition from a more balanced perspective? (By the way, I did say that females allowed the suppression, which is half of the equation, and releases "blame.")

Let's not ignore the fact, however, that we have been male-dominated societies (for the most part) for a very long time. This is not an accusation. And just because you are male now, and I am female, does not mean that we haven't participated on both sides.

How about we phrase it such that both males and females have been placed in a position where they were not able to be truly themselves. So that natural relationships to the other gender were impossible?

A male dominated society means a society in which a certain type of male and a certain type of female fit really well. If you didn't fit in the straightjacket either as a male or a female you were in trouble..

Obviously this was a worse time for women. I don't think we need to steal each others thunder. But I think we both suffered... We might occasionally joke about it but no mature man today really wants to go back to those times. Imagine true lovers a guy and a girl perfect for each other.. Yet they're continually pushed into ritualized behavior towards each other. Not just by society but primarily by their own beliefs.

We're still not in the clear though. Male and female energies are not perfectly balanced. Though we've come a long way.

Whats important is how things where much further back.

Are you suggesting that the more recent history is less important?

Not in general but when it comes to the evolution of our psyches... Yes I do. Less time passed so it will have had less effect on the hard wired and thus more intrinsic qualities of male or female psychology... For other parts of our psychology, the last few millenia will be more important. But in this case with deeply rooted archetypes I'd look back over a long time, not just (cosmically speaking) last week...

If so, I disagree. I think it's all important, but if anything, the more recent history is a better reflection of where we're at now. We have to take into consideration that humans have been evolving (presumably).

Under normal circumstances I would agree. But the artificial roles imposed upon men and women do not allow us to consider much of the recent history to be considered normal circumstances...

The 7000 years or so that civilisation existed will obviously have made some changes in mankind, I'm not denying the importance of that period. But something as essential as the relation between the sexes is very deeply rooted. We cannot understand it by only looking at the last period.. We have to go back a long time.

*I* held the same beliefs and values. So I don't hold any blame. I merely hope to show that these beliefs are so common that we hardly see them any more.

Respectfully, Ali, you're beginning to sound condescending. I've already told you that you have misunderstood me. To continue to insist that I think a certain way, when I already told you I don't and tried to better explain my position, is both laughable and insulting.

I'll let it go then.. Call it what you want, I quoted you on all counts. But if you did not mean any of it like you appear to me to have written it. Then I'll just have to accept that.

Let me rephrase my position... I think men and women evolved over hundreds of thousands of years, into a creature that is intrinsically pretty balanced. Men and women are two halves of a circle, they fit each other perfectly.

Then came an influence be it the paternalistic religions or whatever that caused us as a species to have completely inappropriate images about our genders. This resulted in what apparently is a male dominated society. In reality it wasn't the males dominating. It was these paternalistic ideas dominating, because most males fitted as poorly as most females.

Then there was the sexual revolutions. Where women regained a large part of their lost identity.. Men regained a bit of theirs... But girls were the big winners...

These days there's still a large body of inappropriate gender bias. Much hidden bias is oriented towards males. Without wanting to reject or reduce the bias that still exists for women. I have to note that many men have some difficulty in self image when it comes to their masculinity.

Maybe it's similar to just before the sexual revolutions where men would often betray hidden bias by things they said, even if they consciously, agreed with and supported the womens movement. It's just so deeply rooted.

If you start paying attention to the bias towards men in our society then you discover there's really an awefull lot of it. While people who are not paying attention to it are able to blatantly deny it.

[Monica]

What I was referring to which you answer above, is your statement where you say that your interpretation of Ra is that it is women's responsibility

Apparently it's the word responsibility that is causing this reaction. How about sacred task? Or sacred opportunity?

to guide men from mere lust, or lower centers, to the spiritual expression of sexuality.

This discussion is, in my mind, a continuation of the other thread I linked to. Much was said in that thread that is on the surface of my mind, that might not be clear to others coming into this new conversation. I apologize for forgetting that there may be gaps in the conversation.

In the other thread, there was much discussion about porn and women's role in it, and the spiritual implications of that. This is all I will say here. The other thread delves more deeply into this, and might explain why I said what I did.

My interpretation of Q'uo is that women *tend* to have more connection with the unseen world, and may guide men to the inspiration of the spirit, *after* they have *both* reached the green ray transfer.

After they have both reached green ray, there is energy transfer at the green ray level. This doesn't mean that they aren't already affecting one another, though. Again, I wasn't referring to only energy transfer, but mutual catalyst as well.

I do not argue with you there, Monica, although have some questions about what is "culture" and what is "nature". But would like to add that both sexes, i.e. both men and women, would perhaps feel better with an emotional connection in the physical, intimate activity.

Surely. But we know from the material that there is a difference in their energies, so it makes sense to me that, while culture does play a role, a lot of it is indeed nature. It's part of the design, apparently. I don't think it's sexist to acknowledge that. We don't have to go to great lengths to minimize the differences, when Ra and Q'uo have just stated that there are differences.

I do not see anywhere myself that either Ra or Q'uo refers to this being a woman's responsibility.

...That it is a responsibility of both, to guide each other into the sacred moments in intimate expressions.

Are you saying you do think it's a responsibility, but Ra/Q'uo didn't say that? If so, then we're saying the same thing.

I totally agree with your thoughts here. But what *Ra* meant in that particular quote is that female offers "inspiration, healing, and blessing to the male" through the sexual energy transfer.

I prefer not to speak for Ra. You have your interpretation of Ra's words, and I have mine.

The orgasm, as I understand it personally, is something that can happen both with or without energy transfer, i.e. when the green center is opened and when it's not.

Yes. But, in my experience, it's quite different when there is energy transfer and when there isn't.

This conversation refers to "the" female orgasm, as though it were the same all the time.

But as I interpret the Q'uo quote, it is when the green ray is involved, that the female orgasm becomes useful:

I agree with that. My only point is that, in my opinion, the inherent tendency of the female to store more emotional energy, affects catalyst in the relationship in ways beyond the sexual.

I totally agree with you in the above statement. What I disagree with you, as I've already stated, is the statement where you said that it is women's responsibility to guide men from mere lust in lower centers, to spiritual expression of it. I totally agree though, that it is a responsibility/honor of both sexes.

I thought I clarified in an earlier post that both sexes have responsibilities, once they are consciously working on the relationship.

We're really not disagreeing here.

In that quote, as I see it, you do not talk about daily life, but the sexual activity yourself, by saying "spiritual expression of sexuality". Did you mean the daily activities as well, but did not say it, or what do you mean?

Based on my own personal long-term monogamous relationship, I don't separate daily life from sexual energies.

I think that both men and women can still have some blockages in lower centers after have reached the heart center. Not only men.

Undoubtedly! But they may manifest differently.

Q'uo stated that the higher centers are reached together as a couple, while Ra says the above, i.e. that after the heart center is reached, the journey does not have to be done together anymore so to speak. But I think that I got it now. What Q'uo specifically mean, in my understanding, is that *if/when* this journey is expressed in mutual orgasm, together, it lights up all that they state it lights up, while Ra talking about sexual energy transfers as a way for an individual of opening the higher centers, above the heart.

I would disagree here. My experience is that the higher chakras do indeed activate, and there is an energy exchange, with an orgasm by either party. It doesn't have to be simultaneous, thought that is of course very nice.

As I said before, this session is about female orgasm specifically, so Q'uo talking about the female orgasms specifically. *Nevertheless*, look what they are saying:

When working with sexual energy, it is very important to realize that you are dealing with enormously powerful forces, and therefore, as you become more intimate with your partner, you need to become ever more careful, ever more affectionate, and ever more thoughtful about how you say things as well as what you say. For you have become a powerful person to your mate and you wish to treat this mate with all the honor and respect that you would give to the Creator Himself or Herself.

They advice *both* sexes to be gentle and careful with each other.

Yes, agreed. Both.

Power expressions then between sexes may vary. Men may express their power in the ways that you've mentioned above. Women's power expressions may be different, like manipulation, words that hurt in an indirect way, talking bad about him behind his back, "headaches" etc. When there are blockages in lower centers, negative power expressions can be possible. My point is that negative power expressions are not something that should be assigned to men only. Women do that too.

I'm not sure what I said that gave the impression that only men had blockages. ?? Yes I agree absolutely.

[JustLikeYou]

Ankh, I am male. You are right that some women reach orgasm more easily than others; however, I have noticed through the continual process of experimentation that the single most important factor in my being able to maintain both stamina and subtlety of energy flow in order for us to climax simultaneously is a commitment to focusing on her while neglecting any effort to bring myself to orgasm on my own. She will do that for me as I do so for her. All of great magical virtues come into play here: will, faith, purity.

[Monica]

I have noticed through the continual process of experimentation that the single most important factor in my being able to maintain both stamina and subtlety of energy flow in order for us to climax simultaneously is a commitment to focusing on her while neglecting any effort to bring myself to orgasm on my own. She will do that for me as I do so for her. All of great magical virtues come into play here: will, faith, purity.

Well said! By giving selflessly to the woman, the man's yang (outward) energy is 'pulled in' by the yin. Yin is attracting.

---

Not in general but when it comes to the evolution of our psyches... Yes I do. Less time passed so it will have had less effect on the hard wired and thus more intrinsic qualities of male or female psychology... For other parts of our psychology, the last few millenia will be more important. But in this case with deeply rooted archetypes I'd look back over a long time, not just (cosmically speaking) last week...

If spiritual evolution were linear, I'd agree. But I don't think it is. There are quantum jumps in consciousness, like the one we're now embarking on.

In addition, you seem to be viewing this from a physical evolution standpoint. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) ie. viewing evolution of humans as a species, starting from the physical and evolving in consciousness.

I don't view our evolution that way. Many of the souls who did those things (whether it's raping/pillaging, worshiping the Goddess, or whatever) later incarnated into other cultures with completely different value systems. I see it more as individual souls hopping about, trying out different roles in different cultures, for the purpose of experiencing different types of catalyst.

Under normal circumstances I would agree. But the artificial roles imposed upon men and women do not allow us to consider much of the recent history to be considered normal circumstances...

Why would the current roles be any more artificial than historical roles?

The 7000 years or so that civilisation existed will obviously have made some changes in mankind, I'm not denying the importance of that period. But something as essential as the relation between the sexes is very deeply rooted. We cannot understand it by only looking at the last period.. We have to go back a long time.

As you wish.

I'll let it go then.. Call it what you want, I quoted you on all counts. But if you did not mean any of it like you appear to me to have written it. Then I'll just have to accept that.

What one perceives from the written words of another, isn't necessarily what the other person intended. Happens all the time on discussion forums.

Anyway, we've all been both male and female, so the idea of feeling superior just doesn't apply here.

Let me rephrase my position... I think men and women evolved over hundreds of thousands of years, into a creature that is intrinsically pretty balanced.

Hundreds of thousands of years? When did Ra say the souls from the 13 planetary systems were deposited on this planet?

Men and women are two halves of a circle, they fit each other perfectly.

Are you saying the ancient civilizations were more advanced than the one we're in now? How does that fit in with the Ra teachings?

Then came an influence be it the paternalistic religions or whatever that caused us as a species to have completely inappropriate images about our genders. This resulted in what apparently is a male dominated society. In reality it wasn't the males dominating. It was these paternalistic ideas dominating, because most males fitted as poorly as most females.

I agree that men were victimized just as much as women were by paternalistic religions. I'm not so sure that was the only reason for the male dominated cultures emerging, though.

Then there was the sexual revolutions. Where women regained a large part of their lost identity.. Men regained a bit of theirs... But girls were the big winners...

For the most part, yes. The pendulum had been swinging one way for so long, it started swinging the other way. But in my opinion, there were some losses for women also. But that's a whole 'nother topic I'd rather not go into.

Without wanting to reject or reduce the bias that still exists for women. I have to note that many men have some difficulty in self image when it comes to their masculinity.

It works both ways!

[Ankh]

What I was referring to which you answer above, is your statement where you say that your interpretation of Ra is that it is women's responsibility

Apparently it's the word responsibility that is causing this reaction. How about sacred task? Or sacred opportunity?

No, Monica. What caused my personal reaction is that it could be interpreted, by reading your post, that women have a spiritual connection, and have to help men to evolve from mere lust, and reach higher centers from the lower. And that it would be something that Ra said.

This discussion is, in my mind, a continuation of the other thread I linked to. Much was said in that thread that is on the surface of my mind, that might not be clear to others coming into this new conversation. I apologize for forgetting that there may be gaps in the conversation.

In the other thread, there was much discussion about porn and women's role in it, and the spiritual implications of that. This is all I will say here. The other thread delves more deeply into this, and might explain why I said what I did.

We are discussing Q'uo quote here about female orgasm, not porn. Then you said that women have to guide men to reach higher centers from mere lust.

I got it! Perhaps the misunderstanding/confusion is in: since we are discussing female orgasm, you talk about females only, meaning that - females guide men to reach higher centers from the lower ones. While you of course mean that this applies to both sexes? That both help, guide and aid each other to reach higher centers leaving lower ones behind. But since we are talking about females here, you said that it was female's responsibility, while it is in fact a responsibility/honor of both?

Surely. But we know from the material that there is a difference in their energies, so it makes sense to me that, while culture does play a role, a lot of it is indeed nature. It's part of the design, apparently. I don't think it's sexist to acknowledge that. We don't have to go to great lengths to minimize the differences, when Ra and Q'uo have just stated that there are differences.

Perhaps it is not the differences that are stated in Ra and Q'uo that bothered me, but other's interpretations of them. All are entitled to their own "truth". Got it! =)

I do not see anywhere myself that either Ra or Q'uo refers to this being a woman's responsibility.

...That it is a responsibility of both, to guide each other into the sacred moments in intimate expressions.

Are you saying you do think it's a responsibility, but Ra/Q'uo didn't say that? If so, then we're saying the same thing.

What I said is that I don't see anywhere that Ra or Q'uo states that as women's responsibility (only)=that there is anything in either material that says that "it is women's responsibility to guide men from mere lust, or lower centers, to the spiritual expression of sexuality".

I totally agree with you in the above statement. What I disagree with you, as I've already stated, is the statement where you said that it is women's responsibility to guide men from mere lust in lower centers, to spiritual expression of it. I totally agree though, that it is a responsibility/honor of both sexes.

I thought I clarified in an earlier post that both sexes have responsibilities, once they are consciously working on the relationship.

We're really not disagreeing here.

Awesome! So when you said that it's women's responsibility to guide men from lower centers to higher, you meant that it is also men's responsibility to guide women in the same direction?

[EDIT: This post is not visible for me, but it seems to be here when I am trying to edit it. ]

---

I give up now. I can't seem to make my post visible...

Yay! \0/ Thanks, Monica!

[Monica]

What I was referring to which you answer above, is your statement where you say that your interpretation of Ra is that it is women's responsibility

I retracted the troublesome term responsibility and replaced it with task or opportunity. Come to think of it, another term that is actually more accurate is honor. I think it is women's honor to help guide men from their lower chakras.

No obligations. No responsibility. No commitments.

But honor awaits the woman who chooses to accept this task.

Does that help?

No, Monica. What caused my personal reaction is that it could be interpreted, by reading your post, that women have a spiritual connection, and have to help men to evolve from mere lust, and reach higher centers from the lower. And that it would be something that Ra said.

OK. Apparently my viewpoint is unpopular. If I reiterate it, I will catch all sorts of flack.

See, I don't see this as sexist at all, because we've all been both male and female. All are ONE. The man in my life is ME. I am humbled and honored to be of service to him. And he is humbled and honored to be of service to me.

There is no superiority to this. We each have our roles to play. One is not more spiritual than the other.

You are misunderstanding me if you think I'm saying women are more spiritual than men.

We are discussing Q'uo quote here about female orgasm, not porn.

This discussion has already branched off into history, etc.

Then you said that women have to guide men to reach higher centers from mere lust.

May, not "have to." Nothing is required. Service is always optional.

I got it! Perhaps the misunderstanding/confusion is in: since we are discussing female orgasm, you talk about females only, meaning that - females guide men to reach higher centers from the lower ones. While you of course mean that this applies to both sexes?

Both sexes have their roles to play, but they are different. So no, that doesn't apply to both sexes.

Maybe a sidenote into numerology might help to clarify. In binary code, Zero is nothing and yet everything; it is whole. It is inherently yin (feminine) because it is passive and receptive. Zero is the number of the Goddess. It is Spirit Unmanifest.

The number One is the number of yang - masculine energy - moving forward. Its energy is expansive, assertive, and maybe even aggressive. It is the energy of forward motion, of spirit descending into matter, of linear time, of Maia. It is the energy of Illusion. It is Spirit Manifest.

They are equals. Neither is better or "more spiritual" than the other.

But each has its own distinct properties and characteristics. And, the energy of the Goddess (ZERO) must ultimately be balanced with the energy of the God (ONE). It must come full circle.

It is appropriate that the male energy descend into matter, and the female energy, having come full circle, go back to Source.

It is cyclical. All of us have been both male and female. Both have their roles to play.

There is more I could say, but I will refrain, because I think my words will be misunderstood.

That both help, guide and aid each other to reach higher centers leaving lower ones behind. But since we are talking about females here, you said that it was female's responsibility, while it is in fact a responsibility/honor of both?

Both have the honor/opportunity/responsibility...but the roles are different.

In my understanding, of course.

Perhaps it is not the differences that are stated in Ra and Q'uo that bothered me, but other's interpretations of them. All are entitled to their own "truth". Got it! =)

We all offer our own interpretations. That's what this is all about! You might strongly disagree with my interpretations. That's ok. All we can do is offer ourselves to the other, and the other may choose to consider our viewpoints...or not.

What I said is that I don't see anywhere that Ra or Q'uo states that as women's responsibility (only)=that there is anything in either material that says that "it is women's responsibility to guide men from mere lust, or lower centers, to the spiritual expression of sexuality".

If you don't see that, then (apparently) it isn't relevant to you. That's ok.

What I disagree with you, as I've already stated, is the statement where you said that it is women's responsibility to guide men from mere lust in lower centers, to spiritual expression of it. I totally agree though, that it is a responsibility/honor of both sexes.

So do you think the roles are the same? Or do you see a difference in the roles of men vs women?

Awesome! So when you said that it's women's responsibility to guide men from lower centers to higher, you meant that it is also men's responsibility to guide women in the same direction?

No. Men have other 'responsibilities.'

[Ankh]

What I was referring to which you answer above, is your statement where you say that your interpretation of Ra is that it is women's responsibility

I retracted the troublesome term responsibility and replaced it with task or opportunity. Come to think of it, another term that is actually more accurate is honor. I think it is women's honor to help guide men from their lower chakras.

No obligations. No responsibility. No commitments.

But honor awaits the woman who chooses to accept this task.

Does that help?

I think that I understand how you mean. I disagree and regard it to be an honor of both.

What I disagree with you, as I've already stated, is the statement where you said that it is women's responsibility to guide men from mere lust in lower centers, to spiritual expression of it. I totally agree though, that it is a responsibility/honor of both sexes.

So do you think the roles are the same? Or do you see a difference in the roles of men vs women?

As you said it yourself, I don't think that these roles are relevant for my personal progression. I resonate in regards to what Q'uo stated about "unseen worlds" based on personal, individual, experience, but that same experience tells me that I am all things. These "unseen wolrds" is an individual trait. Some might see them, some might not. If it has something to do with being a woman or man, I do not know, and let it be. I think that some men might seen them too. And some women might not. I can be emotional, and I can be non-emotional. I can offer spiritual inspiration, and I can be completely closed. I can be physically strong, and other times - weak. I am trying to discover all these things inside of me, and putting myself in a role is not what I find to be of any aid for my own personal progression. However, I understand that this game is to be played and some may resonate with various roles while playing this game.

[Ali Quadir]

In addition, you seem to be viewing this from a physical evolution standpoint. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) ie. viewing evolution of humans as a species, starting from the physical and evolving in consciousness.

I am viewing this from a physical perspective yes. Not as evolving in consciousness as you think. Consciousness does not evolve as it is unchanging. However, our physical bodies evolve in their ability to reflect this unchanging eternal consciousnes.

Most of our psychological functions are physical in nature. Certainly the gender related ones... If we were to put your consciousness, your soul into my body you'd begin to act pretty much like me. You'd be me... In fact nothing is transferred, our consciousness is the same thing already you can't transfer a non local field.

You remember I always say there is but one soul, one consciousness? The difference between humans is distortion of the consciousness of intelligent infinity. Our body is like a filter that allows us to have a particular consciousness.

Under normal circumstances I would agree. But the artificial roles imposed upon men and women do not allow us to consider much of the recent history to be considered normal circumstances...

Why would the current roles be any more artificial than historical roles?

Normal literally means the average situation. When considering human life over the past 100 thousand years the last 7 thousand years do not represent the other 93 thousand years very well.

I am not saying that any time in history represents normality perse, but you can understand that the "fit" between our psyche and the demands from society is not optimal...

And that's all I am saying... We're not ourselves.

I think you'll agree we are not being ourselves in current society? Current society is not healthy for our gender image?

I'll let it go then.. Call it what you want, I quoted you on all counts. But if you did not mean any of it like you appear to me to have written it. Then I'll just have to accept that.

What one perceives from the written words of another, isn't necessarily what the other person intended. Happens all the time on discussion forums.

I suppose. Something else that also happens all the time is that people speak from their unconscious biasses while consciously not being aware of them. I accept now that I am mistaking and this is not what is going on here. But I admit that it is difficult to do so.

You could help me perhaps? Laugh about your friend uncle ali that his mind is slow to accept certain realities.. Just spell them out properly for him next time

Let me rephrase my position... I think men and women evolved over hundreds of thousands of years, into a creature that is intrinsically pretty balanced.

Hundreds of thousands of years? When did Ra say the souls from the 13 planetary systems were deposited on this planet?

You are correct... I know with certainty that human physical bodies existed on earth for 200 thousand years. Sexual psychology existed long before that. You remind me that human bodies, supposedly with the same sexual polarity has existed for millions of years outside this world. I think we will agree that the gender bias on earth today is not part of the psychological makeup of many of our off world humanoid brethren.

So either the psychology we speak about existed for hundreds of thousands of years. Or it existed for millions of years. Either way, the last 7 millenia were not representative.

They were part of the intention to control mankind.

Men and women are two halves of a circle, they fit each other perfectly.

Are you saying the ancient civilizations were more advanced than the one we're in now? How does that fit in with the Ra teachings?

I said no such thing. I don't understand where you got the idea. I simply stated that our psychology was formed over hundreds of thousands of years. And that the sexual roles imposed upon us in the last few thousand years are not representative to our development and thus our psyches.

Then came an influence be it the paternalistic religions or whatever that caused us as a species to have completely inappropriate images about our genders. This resulted in what apparently is a male dominated society. In reality it wasn't the males dominating. It was these paternalistic ideas dominating, because most males fitted as poorly as most females.

I agree that men were victimized just as much as women were by paternalistic religions. I'm not so sure that was the only reason for the male dominated cultures emerging, though.

You speak of reasons for emerging of cultures, I speak of consequences... At any rate I am glad we agree that both genders were victimized.

Then there was the sexual revolutions. Where women regained a large part of their lost identity.. Men regained a bit of theirs... But girls were the big winners...

For the most part, yes. The pendulum had been swinging one way for so long, it started swinging the other way. But in my opinion, there were some losses for women also. But that's a whole 'nother topic I'd rather not go into.

I would agree with you... Every change has it's up and downsides...

Without wanting to reject or reduce the bias that still exists for women. I have to note that many men have some difficulty in self image when it comes to their masculinity.

It works both ways!

It does, that's why I said "Without wanting to reject or reduce the bias that still exists for women"... I in no way want to belittle or devalue the female gender. I could not do that without belittling or devaluing my own.. Like I said, two halves of a perfect circle.

[Ankh]

Ankh, I am male. You are right that some women reach orgasm more easily than others; however, I have noticed through the continual process of experimentation that the single most important factor in my being able to maintain both stamina and subtlety of energy flow in order for us to climax simultaneously is a commitment to focusing on her while neglecting any effort to bring myself to orgasm on my own. She will do that for me as I do so for her. All of great magical virtues come into play here: will, faith, purity.

Awesome! Where do you live? (j/k)

[Monica]

I am viewing this from a physical perspective yes. Not as evolving in consciousness as you think. Consciousness does not evolve as it is unchanging. However, our physical bodies evolve in their ability to reflect this unchanging eternal consciousnes.

Most of our psychological functions are physical in nature. Certainly the gender related ones... If we were to put your consciousness, your soul into my body you'd begin to act pretty much like me. You'd be me... In fact nothing is transferred, our consciousness is the same thing already you can't transfer a non local field.

You remember I always say there is but one soul, one consciousness? The difference between humans is distortion of the consciousness of intelligent infinity. Our body is like a filter that allows us to have a particular consciousness.

Ultimately, yes, all is one. But there are distortions. We are entities, whose spiritual evolution is described by the densities we resonate with. This doesn't change whether we are currently in physical incarnation or not. ie. a 5D entity is still a 5D entity whether incarnated or not. This is a key premise of the Ra teachings, in my understanding.

Are you saying that you see no difference in entities when they're not in physical incarnation? Is this an area in which you disagree with Ra, or am I misunderstanding you?

If the former, then that would explain why we aren't in agreement on this point. Which is ok, of course.

I think you'll agree we are not being ourselves in current society? Current society is not healthy for our gender image?

Current society is not healthy in so many ways. How can we ever be "ourselves" when we're veiled?

I suppose. Something else that also happens all the time is that people speak from their unconscious biasses while consciously not being aware of them. I accept now that I am mistaking and this is not what is going on here. But I admit that it is difficult to do so.

Something else that happens all the time is that people perceive the viewpoints of others based on their own biases. When we read or hear the words of another, those words are filtered through our own distortions. We may think we know exactly how the other person thinks, what their subconscious issues are, even what their life lessons are, and we could be totally wrong.

We could be partially right, we could be totally right, or we could be totally wrong. And to us, it will always seem totally right, even when we're totally wrong.

You could help me perhaps? Laugh about your friend uncle ali that his mind is slow to accept certain realities.. Just spell them out properly for him next time

OK! Will do. Just remember (when I'm being blunt) that you gave me permission!

So either the psychology we speak about existed for hundreds of thousands of years. Or it existed for millions of years. Either way, the last 7 millenia were not representative.

They were part of the intention to control mankind.

Well this is getting into a whole 'nother topic here. There is much I could say in response to this, but it would take this thread further off-topic.

I said no such thing. I don't understand where you got the idea.

From my own distorted perception of your words, of course!

This is a beautiful illustration of what we just talked about. Your words seemed to imply something to me. Turns out I was wrong in my perception of your words.

But, here's the difference: Rather than assume I was correct in my perception, I simply asked you.

You replied that I was wrong, and I accept it. "Oh, that's not what Ali meant. Cool. Next."

I simply stated that

Isn't it amazing how "simple statements" can carry loads of implication? when passed through our own filters.

At any rate I am glad we agree that both genders were victimized.

Agreed!

I would agree with you... Every change has it's up and downsides...

We agree again! yippppeee! Let's quit while we're ahead. About that female orgasm...

---

I think that I understand how you mean. I disagree and regard it to be an honor of both.

Then do you disagree with what Ra and Q'uo said about there being a difference?

As you said it yourself, I don't think that these roles are relevant for my personal progression.

What I'm wondering is: Do you disagree with what Ra/Q'uo said, or do you feel that you agree with them but just interpret their words differently than I do? Or, do you think Ra's/Q'uo's explanations just don't apply to everyone?

It's perfectly fine to not resonate with something Ra or Q'uo said, of course. I'm just trying to understand whether it's the whole idea of there being any inherent differences between male and female that you disagree with, ie. Ra's/Q'uo's clear indication that there are...OR is it that you feel Ra/Q'uo were referring to those who are veiled and that once we become aware those roles no longer apply?

(I hope this question makes sense.)

It seems to me that there is some indignation being expressed at the very idea that there could be an inherent difference between the sexual nature of male and female. I'm a little surprised at this, being that, in my understanding, Ra and Q'uo have both clearly stated as such.

So, I am attempting to reconcile Ra's and Q'uo's words.

Ra indicated a clear difference between the sexual roles of male and female. Q'uo seemed to focus on the female in this session, because that's what the question was about.

Could it be that they wasn't referring to men and women literally, but to the ever-changing energies in both men and women? Is that how this is reconciled? Surely Ra and Q'uo aren't limited by societal gender roles, right?

What about all the thousands of years' worth of Tantric and Taoist texts which say essentially the same thing Ra and Q'uo said?

Could it be that, as the veil thins, all that ancient wisdom no longer applies? I'm not being facetious here but entirely serious. Many people are confused about their sexuality, to the point of even having their sex changed. I wonder how all this fits in with Ra's and Q'uo's words.

I don't know the answer to these questions, but am just musing...

But let's look at what Q'uo said:

This is green-ray affection and it is at this point that the female orgasm becomes useful. There are more miles to go indeed in exploring sacred sexuality, but this is where it begins.

Why did Q'uo say the female orgasm becomes useful?

Why didn't Q'uo say that both orgasms become equally useful at this point?

Wait, it gets better:

If you are a woman, you treasure yourself. You do not worry about having an orgasm, as if it were the same thing as a man’s orgasm for, my friends, it is not. Certainly it can be made rough and primitive. It can have the energy simply of sexual congress in the red ray. However, it is far more likely for the feminine temperament to appreciate what’s going on when that orgasm happens to her. For a woman tends to have more of a connection with the unseen world. So, she is actually more aware of the kind of energy that is pouring through her when she is expressing an orgasm physically.

Consequently, a woman in that position is a priestess, just as a man is a priest, in sexual intercourse when they are working together sacredly. But to the man goes that kind of energy that is called by this instrument “yang,” to the woman goes the energy that is considered by this instrument “yin,” so that, in the sexual energy exchange that is sacred in nature, from the man comes that powerful energy of physical wellness and vitality—that which you think of when you think of the word “masculine.”

What the feminine offers is the inspiration from spirit. That is the other portion of that male expression of strength, power and virility. The woman is expressing acceptance, unconditional love, and the energy of the Creator Itself. For you see, the woman, unlike man, is possessed of a direct route or connection to the womb of, shall we say, Mother Nature or the red-ray energy of planet Earth.

The woman has that sea of infinity and eternity flowing through her. She is much closer to her priestliness because she must tend to the circumstances of her menses monthly and she feels the pull of the moon, the tides, and her passions in a way that, generally speaking, men are not encouraged to do in your culture.

I just went back and scanned this whole thread. I don't see any discussion of this Q'uote. But there it is.

Who let the elephant in?

[Diana]

No, Monica. What caused my personal reaction is that it could be interpreted, by reading your post, that women have a spiritual connection, and have to help men to evolve from mere lust, and reach higher centers from the lower. And that it would be something that Ra said.

OK. Apparently my viewpoint is unpopular. If I reiterate it, I will catch all sorts of flack.

See, I don't see this as sexist at all, because we've all been both male and female. All are ONE. The man in my life is ME. I am humbled and honored to be of service to him. And he is humbled and honored to be of service to me.

There is no superiority to this. We each have our roles to play. One is not more spiritual than the other.

You are misunderstanding me if you think I'm saying women are more spiritual than men.

Let's not forget that one chakra is not better than another. They are all needed. Higher (not to mean better, rather position in a vertical line) chakras activated with the the lower chakras blocked can cause mental instability for instance.

---

Maybe a sidenote into numerology might help to clarify. In binary code, Zero is nothing and yet everything; it is whole. It is inherently yin (feminine) because it is passive and receptive. Zero is the number of the Goddess. It is Spirit Unmanifest.

The number One is the number of yang - masculine energy - moving forward. Its energy is expansive, assertive, and maybe even aggressive. It is the energy of forward motion, of spirit descending into matter, of linear time, of Maia. It is the energy of Illusion. It is Spirit Manifest.

They are equals. Neither is better or "more spiritual" than the other.

But each has its own distinct properties and characteristics. And, the energy of the Goddess (ZERO) must ultimately be balanced with the energy of the God (ONE). It must come full circle.

It is appropriate that the male energy descend into matter, and the female energy, having come full circle, go back to Source.

It is cyclical. All of us have been both male and female. Both have their roles to play.

I love this--thank you.

[JustLikeYou]

It is worth considering that Ra notes that Chakras 1,3,5 have distinctly male overtones; whereas, chakras 2,4,6 have distinctly female ones. If we are to sort out specific honors or responsibilities (recall that every honor is also a responsibility) when it comes to the biological male and biological female during intercourse, it would only make sense that (in general) the male's honor is to bring an emphasis on red, yellow and blue energy while the female's honor is to bring an emphasis on orange, green and indigo. Though this seems excessively rigid, I would like to mention that for those who are not connected to their higher chakras, it is important to note that the female sex drive is linked primarily to the orange ray, whereas the male sex drive is linked primarily to the red ray. I tend to think that if it is the male's honor/responsibility to initiate intercourse (by the erection), then it is the female's honor/responsibility to make the first energetic shift by bringing the energy upward from red to orange. Then we can imagine that the honor again turns as the male moves the energy upward from orange to yellow, and so-forth in leap-frogging fashion until violet, which would probably not follow this pattern. This, of course, is only a hypothesis, and likely an incorrect one at that.

Awesome! Where do you live? (j/k)

Oh lord! If only you knew what kind of lessons I've programmed in this life! I'll have to ask your patience: perhaps we can be lovers in another life.

[Ankh]

I think that I understand how you mean. I disagree and regard it to be an honor of both.

Then do you disagree with what Ra and Q'uo said about there being a difference?

Nope. Hopefully I will be able to explain myself below.

What I'm wondering is: Do you disagree with what Ra/Q'uo said, or do you feel that you agree with them but just interpret their words differently than I do? Or, do you think Ra's/Q'uo's explanations just don't apply to everyone?

It's perfectly fine to not resonate with something Ra or Q'uo said, of course. I'm just trying to understand whether it's the whole idea of there being any inherent differences between male and female that you disagree with, ie. Ra's/Q'uo's clear indication that there are...OR is it that you feel Ra/Q'uo were referring to those who are veiled and that once we become aware those roles no longer apply?

I don't disagree with Ra/Q'uo, but interpret it differently. I also think that Q'uo are speaking more broadly, and more in generalities, while Ra has been more careful with generalities, and was pointing out when they spoke in those, though still being somewhat reluctant when speaking in those.

Of course it is perfectly fine to not resonate with Ra and/or Q'uo. Most of my friends are in that category and I like them anyway. I am just not one of those persons.

It seems to me that there is some indignation being expressed at the very idea that there could be an inherent difference between the sexual nature of male and female. I'm a little surprised at this, being that, in my understanding, Ra and Q'uo have both clearly stated as such.

So, I am attempting to reconcile Ra's and Q'uo's words.

Do you mean that you are one of those who feel this indignation, or that you feel that there is resistance from for instance me towards what Ra/Q'uo said? I am not resistant to what they are saying, but as I pointed out, seem to interpret it differently than you perhaps; plus I also think that there might be some exceptions among entities upon whom what Ra/Q'uo said, in some of their statements, can not be applied.

Ra indicated a clear difference between the sexual roles of male and female. Q'uo seemed to focus on the female in this session, because that's what the question was about.

I am not sure that Ra was actually speaking in terms of *roles*, or were they?

Could it be that they wasn't referring to men and women literally, but to the ever-changing energies in both men and women? Is that how this is reconciled? Surely Ra and Q'uo aren't limited by societal gender roles, right?

I think it was a great idea of ever-changing energies in both men and women that you brought up, and that they did not mean men and women literally. But I don't know. In that case, each quote needs to be examined in order to see it. What do you mean by Ra/Q'uo are not limited by societal gender roles? You mean in our society or theirs or...?

Could it be that, as the veil thins, all that ancient wisdom no longer applies? I'm not being facetious here but entirely serious. Many people are confused about their sexuality, to the point of even having their sex changed. I wonder how all this fits in with Ra's and Q'uo's words.

I certainly believe that as the veil thins, the gender roles we assign ourselves through "culture" becoming visible, and we cease playing these roles, as more conscious awareness is awakened. Then as you point out, this is a very confused planet. Personally I believe that there has been too much distortions in what you call "ancient wisdom". But as long as polarities exist through the densities, i.e. third, fourth and fifth, the "nature" of females and males, i.e. gender specific polarities, are explored.

I don't know the answer to these questions, but am just musing...

Same here.

I remember you wrote that I always sound so sure and confindent in my posts. Well, I am not. I am just sharing my current understanding based on what I have to come to understand. And that changes as more/other facts/understandings are gained. Just wanted you to know that. =)

But let's look at what Q'uo said:

This is green-ray affection and it is at this point that the female orgasm becomes useful. There are more miles to go indeed in exploring sacred sexuality, but this is where it begins.

Here is the difference in our understandings, I believe. I see in the above Q'uo quote that it's when the green ray is applied, the female offers all that Q'uo/Ra state that the women offer, and vice versa in regards to men. While you are interpreting it as something that applies before the green ray affection, and not only in sexual intimacy but also in everyday life. Meaning that in the everyday life, and before the green ray affection is activated in both entities, it is a woman's responsibility/honor to guide male from lower centers into the higher. And I don't agree with you here, as I think that both genders offer the catalysts which, if we choose to accept the honor to serve our partner, and also become consciously aware of our own lessons, will hopefully lead us from what you refer to as lower centers, or mere lust, to higher centers and sacred beingness. It is not only woman's responsibility/honor to guide men in everyday life, but an honor of both, if both the woman and man chooses to consciously accept and work with this responsibility/honor, which is my personal opinion.

Of course I am not blind to visible roles that women and men play today in our societies. These roles, in my humble opinion, are more consisted of what I refer to as "culture". The true "nature", that nature that Ra and Q'uo talk about, which regard the polarities and makes 360 degrees of the Creatorship, is something that is much more subtle.

Wait, it gets better:

If you are a woman, you treasure yourself. You do not worry about having an orgasm, as if it were the same thing as a man’s orgasm for, my friends, it is not. Certainly it can be made rough and primitive. It can have the energy simply of sexual congress in the red ray. However, it is far more likely for the feminine temperament to appreciate what’s going on when that orgasm happens to her. For a woman tends to have more of a connection with the unseen world. So, she is actually more aware of the kind of energy that is pouring through her when she is expressing an orgasm physically.

Consequently, a woman in that position is a priestess, just as a man is a priest, in sexual intercourse when they are working together sacredly. But to the man goes that kind of energy that is called by this instrument “yang,” to the woman goes the energy that is considered by this instrument “yin,” so that, in the sexual energy exchange that is sacred in nature, from the man comes that powerful energy of physical wellness and vitality—that which you think of when you think of the word “masculine.”

What the feminine offers is the inspiration from spirit. That is the other portion of that male expression of strength, power and virility. The woman is expressing acceptance, unconditional love, and the energy of the Creator Itself. For you see, the woman, unlike man, is possessed of a direct route or connection to the womb of, shall we say, Mother Nature or the red-ray energy of planet Earth.

The woman has that sea of infinity and eternity flowing through her. She is much closer to her priestliness because she must tend to the circumstances of her menses monthly and she feels the pull of the moon, the tides, and her passions in a way that, generally speaking, men are not encouraged to do in your culture.

This supports what I personally understand for the moment. The different energies that women respectively men posses, which I refer to as "nature", are exchanged in intimate moments, after activation of the green ray. Do you see the difference in our interpretations of Ra/Q'uo quote now? Or, Monica, if I have missed some quotes where Q'uo/Ra stated differently, I would love to have them pointed out to me. It will surely give me a good material to process and come to a more reasonable understanding.

In my experience, I do not see the differences between men and women in everyday life that clearly. I see more the individual differences than the differences between genders. The differences that exist between these genders today in our society that are visible (i.e. you=man, go and fix the lawn; you=woman, go and cook some dinner) are more based on how we think that it is supposed to be, i.e. what I refer to as "culture". It's an auto-pilot mode. I don't think that women are born with genes for liking pink color and princesses, as I don't think that men are born with genes for liking fixing the lawn and cars (bad analogy perhaps, but hopefully I was now able to express what I understand for the moment).

Why did Q'uo say the female orgasm becomes useful?

Why didn't Q'uo say that both orgasms become equally useful at this point?

The above, as I stated, are expressed in energy transfers, *after* an activation of the green ray. *Before* this activation occures, *both* genders help each other to come to that point - as I see it; while you state that this applies before the green ray activation, meaning that it is a woman's honor to guide man to this, before either her or him are there. While I say that before the green ray activation both genders, are helping each other, if chosen, to this activation, as long as both are still learning ways of love.

[Monica]

It is worth considering that Ra notes that Chakras 1,3,5 have distinctly male overtones; whereas, chakras 2,4,6 have distinctly female ones. If we are to sort out specific honors or responsibilities (recall that every honor is also a responsibility)

Ah! So that's why I chose the word responsibility without even thinking about it! Thank you!

when it comes to the biological male and biological female during intercourse, it would only make sense that (in general) the male's honor is to bring an emphasis on red, yellow and blue energy while the female's honor is to bring an emphasis on orange, green and indigo. Though this seems excessively rigid, I would like to mention that for those who are not connected to their higher chakras, it is important to note that the female sex drive is linked primarily to the orange ray, whereas the male sex drive is linked primarily to the red ray. I tend to think that if it is the male's honor/responsibility to initiate intercourse (by the erection), then it is the female's honor/responsibility to make the first energetic shift by bringing the energy upward from red to orange. Then we can imagine that the honor again turns as the male moves the energy upward from orange to yellow, and so-forth in leap-frogging fashion until violet, which would probably not follow this pattern. This, of course, is only a hypothesis, and likely an incorrect one at that.

That's a very interesting hypothesis! And it made me think of the image of the Kundalini rising.

Speaking of which, I never knew before the significance of the snakes. I must have missed this in biology class. But a picture is worth 1000 words!

---

Do you mean that you are one of those who feel this indignation, or that you feel that there is resistance from for instance me towards what Ra/Q'uo said?

I didn't feel any indignation; I sensed indignation from both you and Ali when I expressed my understanding of Ra/Q'uo's words about gender differences. My statements seemed to really push some buttons. (Just my perception.)

I am not resistant to what they are saying, but as I pointed out, seem to interpret it differently than you perhaps; plus I also think that there might be some exceptions among entities upon whom what Ra/Q'uo said, in some of their statements, can not be applied.

Fair enough!

I am not sure that Ra was actually speaking in terms of *roles*, or were they?

Actually, I don't think they ever used the word role. That came up in this discussion. I don't think role is a good word. I think function is a better descriptor.

Role implies something fake, like a mask we put on but it isn't really us. Whereas, function is an impersonal, mechanical thing.

I think it was a great idea of ever-changing energies in both men and women that you brought up, and that they did not mean men and women literally. But I don't know. In that case, each quote needs to be examined in order to see it.

Ra always chose their words carefully. I see no reason to think they didn't intend it literally.

What do you mean by Ra/Q'uo are not limited by societal gender roles? You mean in our society or theirs or...?

They're certainly not limited by our society mores, and probably not by theirs either. They are no longer a 3D society like we are. And we're veiled, to boot!

They are a Social Memory Complex. I would think they no longer have, as Ali would call them, "artificial" expectations, but are free to express themselves authentically.

I certainly believe that as the veil thins, the gender roles we assign ourselves through "culture" becoming visible, and we cease playing these roles, as more conscious awareness is awakened.

If indeed they are "roles" then yes. But if, as I understand Ra to say, they are not roles but functions, then the veil would have bearing on them.

Then as you point out, this is a very confused planet. Personally I believe that there has been too much distortions in what you call "ancient wisdom".

Depends on which 'ancient wisdom' we're referring to. I find the ancient Judeo-Christian scriptures highly distorted, and even more so the further back you go; whereas, I find the Taoist and yogic teachings to have a deep resonance of truth (in the subject of sexuality) that was suppressed and even corrupted in the Judeo-Christian traditions.

I remember you wrote that I always sound so sure and confindent in my posts. Well, I am not. I am just sharing my current understanding based on what I have to come to understand. And that changes as more/other facts/understandings are gained. Just wanted you to know that. =)

OK thanks!

Here is the difference in our understandings, I believe. I see in the above Q'uo quote that it's when the green ray is applied, the female offers all that Q'uo/Ra state that the women offer, and vice versa in regards to men. While you are interpreting it as something that applies before the green ray affection,

No. I said before the sex act. I didn't say before green ray affection.

and not only in sexual intimacy but also in everyday life.

This part is true. A woman might have green ray love for her partner for a long time before they have sex. This is the time period I'm referring to: the time when the relationship is developing into sexual, as well as afterwards.

Meaning that in the everyday life, and before the green ray affection is activated in both entities, it is a woman's responsibility/honor to guide male from lower centers into the higher.

No. The way the woman guides the man emotionally is by activating green ray. That's what draws the energy upwards.

Of course, the man might activate green ray first, or it might happen at the same time. I'm not referring to 'just' romantic love here; obviously, both men and women are equally capable of romantic love. I'm specifically referring to the connection of romantic love to the sex act.

A man might love the woman just as much as the woman loves the man. But, in many cases, that romantic love might not be equated to the sex act as much as it is for the woman.

Please note that I am generalizing here, intentionally, to make a point. I 'get it' that there might be exceptions. I'm trying to explain what I think Ra and Q'uo meant.

Statistically, men often report that, when they've had affairs, it was no big deal because it was "just sex" and they "love" their wives. Whereas, scorned wives often report that they felt betrayed, as though their husbands no longer love them. The husband then says, "but of course I love you! I don't love her! I just had sex with her, that's all!"

This is a classic scenario. And before Ali offers some opposing statistics, I'm not claiming it's the only scenario. I'm saying it's a common scenario.

And I don't agree with you here, as I think that both genders offer the catalysts which, if we choose to accept the honor to serve our partner, and also become consciously aware of our own lessons, will hopefully lead us from what you refer to as lower centers, or mere lust, to higher centers and sacred beingness.

I don't dispute that both genders offer the catalyst. Yes. But that's not what I'm referring to. I'm specifically referring to the Ra and Q'uo quotes.

If you disagree with my interpretation, then what is your interpretation?

It is not only woman's responsibility/honor to guide men in everyday life, but an honor of both, if both the woman and man chooses to consciously accept and work with this responsibility/honor, which is my personal opinion.

I understand your opinion. But so far, you haven't addressed the quotes.

Of course I am not blind to visible roles that women and men play today in our societies. These roles, in my humble opinion, are more consisted of what I refer to as "culture".

I really don't think Ra or Q'uo were referring to culture. They were referring to function.

This supports what I personally understand for the moment. The different energies that women respectively men posses, which I refer to as "nature", are exchanged in intimate moments, after activation of the green ray. Do you see the difference in our interpretations of Ra/Q'uo quote now?

No. Respectfully, you don't seem to have addressed the quotes.

The differences that exist between these genders today in our society that are visible (i.e. you=man, go and fix the lawn; you=woman, go and cook some dinner) are more based on how we think that it is supposed to be, i.e. what I refer to as "culture". It's an auto-pilot mode. I don't think that women are born with genes for liking pink color and princesses, as I don't think that men are born with genes for liking fixing the lawn and cars (bad analogy perhaps, but hopefully I was now able to express what I understand for the moment).

I feel like we are not communicating. I know we're both trying our darndest, but our conversation is following 2 tracks. I'm puzzled why you and Ali both continue to reference society stereotypes. Does anyone else see what I see in the quotes? I don't see them as referring to cultural roles at all.

I'm grasping at words here...not sure how to offer clarification.

The above, as I stated, are expressed in energy transfers, *after* an activation of the green ray. *Before* this activation occures, *both* genders help each other to come to that point - as I see it; while you state that this applies before the green ray activation, meaning that it is a woman's honor to guide man to this, before either her or him are there. While I say that before the green ray activation both genders, are helping each other, if chosen, to this activation, as long as both are still learning ways of love.

OK. Progress! Thank you. This presupposes that men and women have the same motivation for sex and emotional connection to sex, and equally able to translate their love for the other into sex.

[Ankh]

I didn't feel any indignation; I sensed indignation from both you and Ali when I expressed my understanding of Ra/Q'uo's words about gender differences. My statements seemed to really push some buttons. (Just my perception.)

.....
If you disagree with my interpretation, then what is your interpretation?

....
I understand your opinion. But so far, you haven't addressed the quotes.

....
No. Respectfully, you don't seem to have addressed the quotes.

....
I feel like we are not communicating. I know we're both trying our darndest, but our conversation is following 2 tracks. I'm puzzled why you and Ali both continue to reference society stereotypes. Does anyone else see what I see in the quotes? I don't see them as referring to cultural roles at all.

I'm grasping at words here...not sure how to offer clarification.

Monica, I feel that too, that we are not communicating. I am trying my best to offer my understandings, and I understand that you do too, but we don't seem to succeed. So I will drop all other side-discussions. My *personal* intention with providing societal "stereotypes" as you call them, was to make you to see that these are *not* what I meant. I was trying to express my view that our genders are colored and distorted by cultures, instead of having it end up as some kind of side-discussion.

You said that a word "function" instead of a "role" is a better one for what you were trying to express. I choose to use the word "energy". There is feminine energy, and there is masculine energy.

I even thought that I was explaining my view on those quotes all the time, but see now that I have not succeeded. So I will try again and offer my interpretation of these again.

Before that, I want to add that I personally reacted at your first statement, but I chose not to respond on that. Ali chose to reply to you about that, in his first post in this thread. That started a discussion between two of you. I was following it. My intention when later responding to one of your replies to him, was to offer my understanding of the confusion you two seemed to experience at that point, as I saw that you stated one thing in the post that Ali replied to at first, but then you offered another view, which is, as I saw it, was what caused the confusion between two of you. In your first statement, which is:

My interpretation of Ra's words on the subject is that women have a sacred responsibility to help guide men from mere lust (lower chakras only) to the spiritual expression of sexuality (communion on the higher chakras also).

I understand it as you interpret the Ra quote, which is:

87.26 Questioner: In our illusion we have physical definitions for possible transfers of energy. We label them as the conversion of potential to kinetic or kinetic to heat and examine this with respect to the increasing entropy. When we speak of sexual energy transfers and other more basic forms of energy I am always at a loss to properly use, you might say, the terms since I am not understanding—and possibly can’t understand—the basic form of energy that we speak of. However, I intuit that this is the energy of pure vibration; that is, at the basic level of our illusion, that vibration between the space and time portion of the space/time continuum and yet somehow is transferred into our illusion in a more basic form than that. Could you expand on this area for me, please?

Ra: I am Ra. Yes.

Category: Sexual Energy Transfer

87.27 Questioner: Would you do that?

Ra: I am Ra. You are correct in assuming that the energy of which we speak in discussing sexual energy transfers is a form of vibratory bridge between space/time and time/space. Although this distinction is not apart from that which follows, that which follows may shed light upon that basic statement.

Due to the veiling process the energy transferred from male to female is different than that transferred from female to male. Due to the polarity difference of the mind/body/spirit complexes of male and female the male stores physical energy, the female mental and mental/emotional energy. When third-density sexual energy transfer is completed the male will have offered the discharge of physical energy. The female is, thereby, refreshed, having far less physical vitality. At the same time, if you will use this term, the female discharges the efflux of its stored mental and mental/emotional energy, thereby offering inspiration, healing, and blessing to the male which by nature is less vital in this area.

At this time may we ask for one more full query.

as women having a responsibility to help to guide men from mere lust to the spiritual expression of sexuality. This is what caused my personal reaction (don't know about Ali). As I said, I followed yours and Ali's discussions on that matter, and when you two seemed to experience confusion in that discussion, I tried to offer my understanding of the situation, to clear this confusion up.

In other posts you stated other things, but, and I don't know how much more clear I can be on this than simply saying that - I don't agree with your interpretation of that particular Ra quote, as it is offered in that particular quote of yours. Later on you stated many other things, which surely caused me confusion as well, so I still can't seem to understand, Monica. So, honestly - and I don't know how much more clear I can be than this - what do you mean by the above statement of yours?

My personal interpretation of the Ra quote: The energies (masculine and feminine) are transfered in sexual energy transfer. The requirement for that transfer is an activation of the green ray. Meaning that both Ra and Q'uo are talking about what happens *after a green ray activation* in sexual energy transfer. *Before* this activation there is no transfer of these energies, that which you seem to talk about - neither in the Ra material nor the Q'uo sessions, is there any advice to women to guide men into higher centers from the lower ones, as an activation of the green center means that the male is already in the "higher centers". Do you have any quotes to point me into this direction - I would gladly reconsider my understanding and opinion.

Right now my understanding and opinion is that our polarity differences of females and males, are much more subtle than people think, and I personally do not see these differences that clearly (and that is where I was trying to point out that I see the societal roles as distorted. They are "social/cultural" and are what I call, in the most times driven by an auto-pilot mode).

My personal interpretation of the Q'uo is basically the same. We possess different *energies* due polarity of being males and females. These differences may be seen and tranferred in sexual activity *when the green ray is activated*. Specifically speaking of the female orgasm, a female may offer all that that Q'uo/Ra state that females offer, but again, - I do not see anywhere in the session/Ra quote that it is a female who will guide a male from lower centers into higher ones. Do you?

As a green ray activation is required for these energy transfers to occur, a man is already in the "higher" centers, and not stuck in the lower ones. It is then the female may offer him that which she has to offer.

[Ali Quadir]

as women having a responsibility to help to guide men from mere lust to the spiritual expression of sexuality. This is what caused my personal reaction (don't know about Ali).

Yes, this is what I responded and objected to...

I compared the sentence to the old and fortunately mostly forgotten idea that women need men to help them to think properly. A man does not need a woman to come to spiritual realization. Neither does a woman need a man.

I understand that Monica's view is not as biased as this sentence seems to portrey it. We got a badly distorted understanding of her position due to this unfortunate sentence. And a few other sentences that did not help us get back on the proper path.

But we got there in the end

Right now my understanding and opinion is that our polarity differences of females and males, are much more subtle than people think, and I personally do not see these differences that clearly (and that is where I was trying to point out that I see the societal roles as distorted. They are "social/cultural" and are what I call, in the most times driven by an auto-pilot mode).

I agree with this... In my opinion the distortion society experiences about the genders is still repressing our true natures. Most of us do not even notice this. Even when they are all for breaking through the gender stereotypes they still impose them on themselves and upon others. In the worst case they want to make men and women equal by reversing gender images. Having boys play with dolls and girls with cars. Being forced into any role of course does not help people be themselves.

Being a masculine man who goes out to fight his buddies or some other team on saturday with a rugby team or feminine woman who gather together to make scented candles is perfectly alright of course. It is even allright for that man not to be interested in scented candles he is not unbalanced because of it. Neither is the woman who can't throw a punch an unbalanced person. Neither is a man who loves candlemaking unbalanced, and neither is a female rugby player unbalanced.

The pagans I hang out with occasionally do art and craft things.. They sit together and make candles. Some guys really get into it.. Others just can't, it doesn't interest them. Some don't even try, they just sit around with a beer chatting.

In the sack it's really about individuals isn't it? Not about genders. So no one has to guide anyone. It is no ones responsibility to do anything. Other than be with the other person in a private moment where we give and receive freely of ourselves.

We are not divided into two groups. We are a spectrum of sexuality and gender identity. And each individual within that spectrum occupies a valid position.

[Monica]

My *personal* intention with providing societal "stereotypes" as you call them, was to make you to see that these are *not* what I meant.

Oh ok. I thought you and Ali both thought I was favoring stereotypes.

I was trying to express my view that our genders are colored and distorted by cultures, instead of having it end up as some kind of side-discussion.

Yes we all agree on that point. I'm trying to discuss Ra's and Q'uo's words without getting into cultural stereotypes. I wonder if we can do that...?

You said that a word "function" instead of a "role" is a better one for what you were trying to express. I choose to use the word "energy". There is feminine energy, and there is masculine energy.

Function and energy are 2 different things. Chakras have function, in regards to energies. I was trying to differentiate between an artificial 'role' and functional design.

I even thought that I was explaining my view on those quotes all the time, but see now that I have not succeeded. So I will try again and offer my interpretation of these again.

We both thought that! We are dealing with a complex topic, rife with biases and distortions, so it's understandable that we're having some challenges.

Before that, I want to add that I personally reacted at your first statement

My interpretation of Ra's words on the subject is that women have a sacred responsibility to help guide men from mere lust (lower chakras only) to the spiritual expression of sexuality (communion on the higher chakras also).

as women having a responsibility to help to guide men from mere lust to the spiritual expression of sexuality. This is what caused my personal reaction

Yes, I get that you and Ali reacted to my choice of word responsibility. I tried to clarify that here:

It is worth considering that Ra notes that Chakras 1,3,5 have distinctly male overtones; whereas, chakras 2,4,6 have distinctly female ones. If we are to sort out specific honors or responsibilities (recall that every honor is also a responsibility)

Ah! So that's why I chose the word responsibility without even thinking about it! Thank you!

Maybe this will help:

3.6 Questioner: At the last session we had two questions that we were saving for this session: one having to do with the possible capstone on top of the Great Pyramid at Giza; the other having to do with how you moved the heavy blocks that make up the pyramid. I know these questions are of no importance with respect to the Law of One, but it was my judgment—and please correct me if I am wrong, and make the necessary suggestions—that this would provide an easy entry for those who would read the material that will eventually become a book. We are very grateful for your contact and will certainly take any suggestions as to how we should receive this information.
Ra: I am Ra. I will not suggest the proper series of questions. This is your prerogative as free agent of the Law of One having learned/understood that our social memory complex cannot effectually discern the distortions of the societal mind/body/spirit complex of your peoples. We wish now to fulfill our teach/learning honor/responsibility by answering what is asked. This only will suffice for we cannot plumb the depths of the distortion complexes which infect your peoples.

In other posts you stated other things, but, and I don't know how much more clear I can be on this than simply saying that - I don't agree with your interpretation of that particular Ra quote,

No problem! It's ok to disagree!

as it is offered in that particular quote of yours. Later on you stated many other things, which surely caused me confusion as well, so I still can't seem to understand, Monica. So, honestly - and I don't know how much more clear I can be than this - what do you mean by the above statement of yours?

Does the Ra quote I just posted help to clarify why I chose that word?

My personal interpretation of the Ra quote: The energies (masculine and feminine) are transfered in sexual energy transfer. The requirement for that transfer is an activation of the green ray. Meaning that both Ra and Q'uo are talking about what happens *after a green ray activation* in sexual energy transfer. *Before* this activation there is no transfer of these energies, that which you seem to talk about

I already agreed with that, and specified that, even before there is energy transfer, there is still catalyst offered by both. The honor/responsibility has to do with catalyst at that point, and it has to do with energy transfer later if the relationship develops to that point.

neither in the Ra material nor the Q'uo sessions, is there any advice to women to guide men into higher centers from the lower ones, as an activation of the green center means that the male is already in the "higher centers". Do you have any quotes to point me into this direction - I would gladly reconsider my understanding and opinion.

Well I already provided the quote which, in my interpretation, does indeed offer this advice:

Wait, it gets better:

If you are a woman, you treasure yourself. You do not worry about having an orgasm, as if it were the same thing as a man’s orgasm for, my friends, it is not. Certainly it can be made rough and primitive. It can have the energy simply of sexual congress in the red ray. However, it is far more likely for the feminine temperament to appreciate what’s going on when that orgasm happens to her. For a woman tends to have more of a connection with the unseen world. So, she is actually more aware of the kind of energy that is pouring through her when she is expressing an orgasm physically.

Consequently, a woman in that position is a priestess, just as a man is a priest, in sexual intercourse when they are working together sacredly. But to the man goes that kind of energy that is called by this instrument “yang,” to the woman goes the energy that is considered by this instrument “yin,” so that, in the sexual energy exchange that is sacred in nature, from the man comes that powerful energy of physical wellness and vitality—that which you think of when you think of the word “masculine.”

What the feminine offers is the inspiration from spirit. That is the other portion of that male expression of strength, power and virility. The woman is expressing acceptance, unconditional love, and the energy of the Creator Itself. For you see, the woman, unlike man, is possessed of a direct route or connection to the womb of, shall we say, Mother Nature or the red-ray energy of planet Earth.

The woman has that sea of infinity and eternity flowing through her. She is much closer to her priestliness because she must tend to the circumstances of her menses monthly and she feels the pull of the moon, the tides, and her passions in a way that, generally speaking, men are not encouraged to do in your culture.

Since you interpret it differently, then I don't think anything else I could say would alter that. We may have to just agree to disagree!

Right now my understanding and opinion is that our polarity differences of females and males, are much more subtle than people think, and I personally do not see these differences that clearly (and that is where I was trying to point out that I see the societal roles as distorted. They are "social/cultural" and are what I call, in the most times driven by an auto-pilot mode).

In my opinion, Ra and Q'uo both seem to indicate the differences aren't just societal or subtle, but very distinct, in terms of function as related to energies. That is the point I'm trying to make.

I do not see anywhere in the session/Ra quote that it is a female who will guide a male from lower centers into higher ones. Do you?

Yes I do, in the Q'uote I just posted. But Ankh, you are leaving out much of what I said. Respectfully, you are oversimplifying my words. I attempted to draw a distinction between a man whose green ray is activated, and his translation of that to sex. That is the part you are missing. Anything else I could say would be repeating what I've already said, so I will stop here for now. Peace.

---

Yes, this is what I responded and objected to...

I compared the sentence to the old and fortunately mostly forgotten idea that women need men to help them to think properly.

Good heavens, Ali, I thought you knew me better than that!

I understand that Monica's view is not as biased as this sentence seems to portrey it.

"Not AS biased..." Oh now I feel soooo much better! I'm still biased, just not as biased. LOL!

We got a badly distorted understanding of her position due to this unfortunate sentence.

Yes indeed. Which is why I think it's important to remember whom we are talking to, when interpreting the written words of another person, in an impersonal internet forum, without benefit of facial expressions, tone of voice, etc. I might suggest asking: "Is this person sexist? What do I know about this person? Hmmmm....I know she's a fiercely independent woman. Therefore, this statement seems a bit out of sync with the way she is...Gosh, could it be possible that's not what she meant at all?"

But we got there in the end

Did we?

We are not divided into two groups. We are a spectrum of sexuality and gender identity. And each individual within that spectrum occupies a valid position.

Still, there is that elephant in the room...

[Ankh]

Before that, I want to add that I personally reacted at your first statement

My interpretation of Ra's words on the subject is that women have a sacred responsibility to help guide men from mere lust (lower chakras only) to the spiritual expression of sexuality (communion on the higher chakras also).

as women having a responsibility to help to guide men from mere lust to the spiritual expression of sexuality. This is what caused my personal reaction

Yes, I get that you and Ali reacted to my choice of word responsibility. I tried to clarify that here:

It is worth considering that Ra notes that Chakras 1,3,5 have distinctly male overtones; whereas, chakras 2,4,6 have distinctly female ones. If we are to sort out specific honors or responsibilities (recall that every honor is also a responsibility)

Ah! So that's why I chose the word responsibility without even thinking about it! Thank you!

I will stop right here in order to clarify again (as I have already said that once before) - I did not react at that specific word - responsibility - as I already knew from the Ra material that responsibility equals honor.

16.40 Questioner: Can you tell me a little more about this honor/responsibility concept?

Ra: I am Ra. Each responsibility is an honor; each honor, a responsibility.

neither in the Ra material nor the Q'uo sessions, is there any advice to women to guide men into higher centers from the lower ones, as an activation of the green center means that the male is already in the "higher centers". Do you have any quotes to point me into this direction - I would gladly reconsider my understanding and opinion.

Well I already provided the quote which, in my interpretation, does indeed offer this advice:

Wait, it gets better:

If you are a woman, you treasure yourself. You do not worry about having an orgasm, as if it were the same thing as a man’s orgasm for, my friends, it is not. Certainly it can be made rough and primitive. It can have the energy simply of sexual congress in the red ray. However, it is far more likely for the feminine temperament to appreciate what’s going on when that orgasm happens to her. For a woman tends to have more of a connection with the unseen world. So, she is actually more aware of the kind of energy that is pouring through her when she is expressing an orgasm physically.

Consequently, a woman in that position is a priestess, just as a man is a priest, in sexual intercourse when they are working together sacredly. But to the man goes that kind of energy that is called by this instrument “yang,” to the woman goes the energy that is considered by this instrument “yin,” so that, in the sexual energy exchange that is sacred in nature, from the man comes that powerful energy of physical wellness and vitality—that which you think of when you think of the word “masculine.”

What the feminine offers is the inspiration from spirit. That is the other portion of that male expression of strength, power and virility. The woman is expressing acceptance, unconditional love, and the energy of the Creator Itself. For you see, the woman, unlike man, is possessed of a direct route or connection to the womb of, shall we say, Mother Nature or the red-ray energy of planet Earth.

The woman has that sea of infinity and eternity flowing through her. She is much closer to her priestliness because she must tend to the circumstances of her menses monthly and she feels the pull of the moon, the tides, and her passions in a way that, generally speaking, men are not encouraged to do in your culture.

Since you interpret it differently, then I don't think anything else I could say would alter that. We may have to just agree to disagree!

Monica, in the above quote Q'uo is talking about what happens after the green ray activation, in the context of sexual energy transfers. What you talking about is something that happens before the green ray activation, in the context of everyday life activities and sexual mating. I don't see anywhere in that quote Q'uo advicing women to guide men from lower centers into the higher ones. Could you point me into specific sentence/s where you see it?

In my opinion, Ra and Q'uo both seem to indicate the differences aren't just societal or subtle, but very distinct, in terms of function as related to energies. That is the point I'm trying to make.

Ok, I don't see that any of them saying anything about differences in function of our genders, but accept it as your interpretation in order to progress in this conversation.

So what you mean is that - in your interpretation of the session/quote of Q'uo/Ra which we are discussing in this thread - women guide men from lower centers into the higher ones?

I do not see anywhere in the session/Ra quote that it is a female who will guide a male from lower centers into higher ones. Do you?

Yes I do, in the Q'uote I just posted. But Ankh, you are leaving out much of what I said. Respectfully, you are oversimplifying my words. I attempted to draw a distinction between a man whose green ray is activated, and his translation of that to sex. That is the part you are missing. Anything else I could say would be repeating what I've already said, so I will stop here for now. Peace.

Monica, it's ok if you wish to stop. I want nothing but the peace myself. I am not fighting you. But I do not understand. You said that I have left out much of what you said, but I re-read this whole thread today and I still don't understand what you are trying to say. You say that I am missing the part of your attempts to draw a distinction between a man whose green ray is activated and his translations of that to sex. Ok, I surely did. Would you mind to explain that if it has something to do with the discussion we are having right now? If it can bring more clarity? If it can resolve the non-understanding and confusion we seem to experience?

But we got there in the end

Did we?

/

[Diana]

A bit of rational consideration on my part here.

Our beingness consists of mutidimensional aspects, for instance:

1) Physical. There is no denying that the male and female bodies differ physically and physiologically. The physical is part of who we are now, however one might want to transcend it. And there is the idea that we chose the way we came in.

2) Energy manifestations. There is the concept of duality: male/female, yin/yang, wave/particle, contraction/expansion. And there is the concept of balance, until we evolve to higher dimensions where integration has occurred.

Given these considerations, it seems reasonable to conclude that the male energy/body would have different functions and ways of using energy than the female energy/body. I think everyone might agree to this possibility.

Because so much struggle and desire for growth is being experienced between male/female roles in society for the past decades, there may be a tendency to feel injustices directed toward either side (consciously or unconsciously).

Regarding this, I think it is the males who are feeling more attacked, as the female plight is much sympathized with, considered and written about, whereas the male plight is not so much.

While discussing the subject at hand, defensive reactions may be coming up on either "side." Catalyst. This is good.

When the emotional charge is recognized and dealt with, the subject of sacred unions (and the female's role in regards to orgasm) will be able to truly flourish. There are no "sides," just different manifestations of energies which function in particular ways, and can be enhanced and evolved by conscious awareness. In the meantime, there is an opportunity to respond and deal with the catalysts, if you feel them.

[Monica]

Monica, in the above quote Q'uo is talking about what happens after the green ray activation, in the context of sexual energy transfers. What you talking about is something that happens before the green ray activation, in the context of everyday life activities and sexual mating. I don't see anywhere in that quote Q'uo advicing women to guide men from lower centers into the higher ones. Could you point me into specific sentence/s where you see it?

it is far more likely for the feminine temperament to appreciate what’s going on when that orgasm happens to her. For a woman tends to have more of a connection with the unseen world. So, she is actually more aware of the kind of energy that is pouring through her when she is expressing an orgasm physically.

Nowhere does it say after. It says when.

As I see it, these sentences:

For a woman tends to have more of a connection with the unseen world. So, she is actually more aware of the kind of energy that is pouring through her when she is expressing an orgasm physically.

Can be interpreted 2 ways:

1. She always has more of a connection to the unseen world, but is more aware of that connection during orgasm.

or

2. She has more of a connection to the unseen world during orgasm only.

In my belief and in my experience, the 'Goddess' energy doesn't turn on only during orgasm; nor does it turn 'off' immediately after orgasm.

Ok, I don't see that any of them saying anything about differences in function of our genders, but accept it as your interpretation in order to progress in this conversation.

I'm puzzled that you don't see it. The quotes are all about the differences in energies. It's very clearly differentiated. Male and female function differently when it comes to sexual energy.

So what you mean is that - in your interpretation of the session/quote of Q'uo/Ra which we are discussing in this thread - women guide men from lower centers into the higher ones?

No, no! Of course men can reach the higher chakra activation without women! Many men lead celibate lives and certainly they can activate the higher chakras. Look at all the monks and sages throughout history!

(Edit: and many women are stuck in the lower chakras.)

No, I am referring to the translation of sexual energy....the pulling of the sexual energy into the higher chakras. Female orgasm is a pulling, a drawing. It draws the yang essence up. Look at the shape of the womb. Look at the numerology of the 0 and the 1. Yin and Yang. The Yang points downward, it is active, it is penetrating. The Yin is drawing and receiving. Not to get too graphic here, but it's all right there, physically.

This has nothing to do with personality. Women can be strong and assertive; men can be emotional, sensitive, etc. Both can be strong or weak. It has nothing to do with that and everything to do with energies. It also has nothing to do with positions of sex, though that too does affect the energies.

Edit: I don't claim to have perfect understanding of this. I'm just sharing what I have interpreted as well as experienced. I'm sorry if I'm not doing a very good job of explaining it.

Edit: Men may have higher chakra activation while their mates have blockages in the lower chakras, or vice versa. It has nothing to do with who is the more spiritually evolved. I'm referring specifically to the integration of sexual energies into the higher chakras. That is, as I understand it, the function of the yin.

[Ankh]

Nowhere does it say after. It says when.

......
I'm puzzled that you don't see it. The quotes are all about the differences in energies. It's very clearly differentiated. Male and female function differently when it comes to sexual energy.

So what you mean is that - in your interpretation of the session/quote of Q'uo/Ra which we are discussing in this thread - women guide men from lower centers into the higher ones?

No, no! Of course men can reach the higher chakra activation without women! Many men lead celibate lives and certainly they can activate the higher chakras. Look at all the monks and sages throughout history!

(Edit: and many women are stuck in the lower chakras.)

......
Edit: I don't claim to have perfect understanding of this. I'm just sharing what I have interpreted as well as experienced. I'm sorry if I'm not doing a very good job of explaining it.

Monica, I could say a lot more in the response to the above post, and this conversation would go on and on and on and on... But perhaps we would just go in circles, repeating ourselves. I see your point more clearly now. And I hope that I could offer a somewhat explanation to you too, so you could see my point as well. I don't claim to have any knowing of this either, and also sharing my interpretation as well as experience. I share my current understanding at each given point.

Before I leave this discussion, there is one last thing that I want to mention. In the above post you answer "no, no", when I am, again, asking you about that interpretation of yours. Ok then. I'll leave it here. To me, what you said, was akin to following scenario: a respected, senior member of *this* community, a male, would say that women are too emotional, and that they can't think logically for themselves. They need a man's assistance to guide them to do that thinking. Then this man would present Ra and Q'uo sessions which would point out that women are indeed more emotional than men. And then this man would present the statistics of IQ tests which would show that men indeed score better in these tests than women. Then this man would say that figures don't lie. That's perhaps is what was bothering me most of it. I found that the statement of one polarity helping another polarity evolving from mere lust to expressions in higher nexi offensive. I am not fighting you, Monica. I am explaining my view. And I am sorry for the poor way of doing that. Peace.

[Monica]

Before I leave this discussion, there is one last thing that I want to mention. In the above post you answer "no, no", when I am, again, asking you about that interpretation of yours. Ok then. I'll leave it here. To me, what you said, was akin to following scenario: a respected, senior member of *this* community, a male, would say that women are too emotional, and that they can't think logically for themselves. They need a man's assistance to guide them to do that thinking. Then this man would present Ra and Q'uo sessions which would point out that women are indeed more emotional than men. And then this man would present the statistics of IQ tests which would show that men indeed score better in these tests than women. Then this man would say that figures don't lie. That's perhaps is what was bothering me most of it. I found that the statement of one polarity helping another polarity evolving from mere lust to expressions in higher nexi offensive. I am not fighting you, Monica. I am explaining my view. And I am sorry for the poor way of doing that. Peace.

You are finding it offensive because you are still, apparently, thinking that I'm saying women are more evolved than men. I agree that would be offensive, if that's what I was saying, but it isn't. I repeat: it's not about who is the more evolved. (Please see the last edit in the post right before this one. I was editing that post while you were writing yours.)

It's fine to disagree. But please don't disagree based on such a gross misunderstanding. Even if you don't understand or agree with my points, please know that it's NOT what you think it is. Please at least 'get' the point in the last edit: that it has nothing to do with who's more spiritually evolved. I hope that I can at least convey that.

Also, I posted those statistics specifically in response to Ali's comments, not to prove my points about the Ra/Q'uo quotes. Those cannot be proven by statistics.

I know you're not 'fighting' me, Ankh. One of my lessons in this life is to not let it bother me when people misunderstand me, even if they think I'm saying the opposite of what I'm actually saying. So thank you for the gentle catalyst!

[Ankh]

I know you're not 'fighting' me, Ankh. One of my lessons in this life is to not let it bother me when people misunderstand me, even if they think I'm saying the opposite of what I'm actually saying. So thank you for the gentle catalyst!

Have to smile here. Same here in regards to that same lesson. Sorry for bringing these catalysts! Seriously am! Sorry. /

[Diana]

Before I leave this discussion, there is one last thing that I want to mention. In the above post you answer "no, no", when I am, again, asking you about that interpretation of yours. Ok then. I'll leave it here. To me, what you said, was akin to following scenario: a respected, senior member of *this* community, a male, would say that women are too emotional, and that they can't think logically for themselves. They need a man's assistance to guide them to do that thinking. Then this man would present Ra and Q'uo sessions which would point out that women are indeed more emotional than men. And then this man would present the statistics of IQ tests which would show that men indeed score better in these tests than women. Then this man would say that figures don't lie. That's perhaps is what was bothering me most of it. I found that the statement of one polarity helping another polarity evolving from mere lust to expressions in higher nexi offensive. I am not fighting you, Monica. I am explaining my view. And I am sorry for the poor way of doing that. Peace.

Ankh, I am not sure how and from where you are extrapolating this interpretation.

No one, as far as I can tell, is saying that women are "better, smarter, more evolved" than men in any way. And certainly no one is suggesting the sorts of unenlightened views toward either sex cited above, unless I am missing something in this thread. :-/

Rather than this interpretation of someone's view: "one polarity helping another polarity evolving from mere lust" remember that 1) we are discussing FEMALE orgasm and its role as the topic, and 2) there is a sharing, synergy, and balancing going on, in which both male and female have a role. If, for instance, the female's role is to assist the male in upward movement of energy, and male's role is to assist the female in downward movement of energy, does that suggest that either upward or downward is bad?

As I have previously posted, males DO have significantly higher testosterone levels, and an evolutionary mandate to copulate. This DOES NOT mean that men are not evolved. It does not mean that women don't like sex. It means only that physiology supports procreation for survival of the species. There are varying degrees of female and male expression. But transgender individuals must take hormones to mimic the gender they are trying to achieve, so the physiology must be in place even if the individual's heart and feelings are polarized to the other gender.

[Monica]

Have to smile here. Same here in regards to that same lesson. Sorry for bringing these catalysts! Seriously am! Sorry. /

Nothing to be sorry for! I'm fine! But thanks!

I'm actually laughing at this. What an amazing example of how we all have our biases and distortions, and how words can be misconstrued even more when using this communication medium.

Check this out:

My single statement

...women have a sacred responsibility to help guide men from mere lust (lower chakras only) to the spiritual expression of sexuality (communion on the higher chakras also).

got misinterpreted to mean that:

1. women should be subservient to men
2. women are more spiritually advanced than men
3. women have a duty or obligation to men
4. women should guide men in all ways not just sexual
5. women and men are both locked into societal roles
6. men are incapable of feeling emotions
7. men need women to show them how to love
8. men are essentially just upright dogs with paychecks

Did I leave any out? All these misinterpretations came from that single sentence, and yet I didn't intend any of them. In fact, I emphatically disagree with all of them!

My statement was intended to convey one idea only: the integration of lust and love.

Both men and women lust, and both men and women love. But, in my understanding of what Ra and Q'uo are referring to, as well as ancient Taoist and Tantric teachings, it is the integration of lust and love that is the special role of the yin essence, potentially embodied by women.

---

Ankh, I am not sure how and from where you are extrapolating this interpretation.

No one, as far as I can tell, is saying that women are "better, smarter, more evolved" than men in any way. And certainly no one is suggesting the sorts of unenlightened views toward either sex cited above, unless I am missing something in this thread. :-/

Thank you, Diana!

[Ankh]

Ankh, I am not sure how and from where you are extrapolating this interpretation.

No one, as far as I can tell, is saying that women are "better, smarter, more evolved" than men in any way. And certainly no one is suggesting the sorts of unenlightened views toward either sex cited above, unless I am missing something in this thread. :-/

Diana, I do not wish to continue the discussion of who said what in this kind of way. Do not screw my words, if you wish to continue this conversation, as I have no interest in saying stuff like - did I say "better, smarter or evolved" or this or that, etc etc...

I'm actually laughing at this. What an amazing example of how we all have our biases and distortions, and how words can be misconstrued even more when using this communication medium.

Check this out:

My single statement

...women have a sacred responsibility to help guide men from mere lust (lower chakras only) to the spiritual expression of sexuality (communion on the higher chakras also).

got misinterpreted to mean that:

1. women should be subservient to men
2. women are more spiritually advanced than men
3. women have a duty or obligation to men
4. women should guide men in all ways not just sexual
5. women and men are both locked into societal roles
6. men are incapable of feeling emotions
7. men need women to show them how to love
8. men are essentially just upright dogs with paychecks

Did I leave any out? All these misinterpretations came from that single sentence, and yet I didn't intend any of them. In fact, I emphatically disagree with all of them!

My statement was intended to convey one idea only: the integration of lust and love.

Both men and women lust, and both men and women love. But, in my understanding of what Ra and Q'uo are referring to, as well as ancient Taoist and Tantric teachings, it is the integration of lust and love that is the special role of the yin essence, potentially embodied by women.

Monica, I don't see any fun here right now. I am sorry. Here is why: I still find your statement offensive. I dropped this discussion after my last post, and thought it would be enough now, but see now that it is not. What I wanted to address furthermore, but did not is that you misinterpreted my words again by saying:

You are finding it offensive because you are still, apparently, thinking that I'm saying women are more evolved than men. I agree that would be offensive, if that's what I was saying, but it isn't. I repeat: it's not about who is the more evolved. (Please see the last edit in the post right before this one. I was editing that post while you were writing yours.)

I did not find it offensive because of thinking that you were saying that women are more evolved than men. Did I say it anywhere? What I was saying is that your quote - of women having a responsibility to guide men from mere lust, or lower nexi, to the spiritual expression of sexuality in higher centers - in short, exactly as you wrote it yourself, is offensive.

Furthermore, please do not confuse what I was trying to say with what Ali was trying to say, as we are two different individuals and had different things we wished to express. At least as I saw it.

[Monica]

please do not confuse what I was trying to say with what Ali was trying to say, as we are two different individuals and had different things we wished to express. At least as I saw it.

I didn't mix you up at all. I didn't specify who said what. Again, you're reading much more into my words than what was actually said.

I certainly didn't intend to offend anyone. My words were misunderstood. That's it. I'm busy anyway so I'm going to quit participating in this discussion.

Peace

[Diana]

Ankh, I am not sure how and from where you are extrapolating this interpretation.

No one, as far as I can tell, is saying that women are "better, smarter, more evolved" than men in any way. And certainly no one is suggesting the sorts of unenlightened views toward either sex cited above, unless I am missing something in this thread. :-/

Diana, I do not wish to continue the discussion of who said what in this kind of way. Do not screw my words, if you wish to continue this conversation, as I have no interest in saying stuff like - did I say "better, smarter or evolved" or this or that, etc etc...

Fair enough. It did seem as though that was what you were trying to get across. I'm not sure then, what the point of the following statements was:

To me, what you said, was akin to following scenario: a respected, senior member of *this* community, a male, would say that women are too emotional, and that they can't think logically for themselves. They need a man's assistance to guide them to do that thinking. Then this man would present Ra and Q'uo sessions which would point out that women are indeed more emotional than men. And then this man would present the statistics of IQ tests which would show that men indeed score better in these tests than women. Then this man would say that figures don't lie.

[Shemaya]

I understand what you are saying Ankh.

From my own experience, a situation played out just as you all are describing in the thread. At one point in my awakening I though it was my responsibility to guide my husband/partner spiritually, this was an idea I accepted from a spiritual teacher at the time. When I expressed this to my partner he found it highly offensive. Now I see my thought/energy with respect to the situation as controlling, manipulative, not STO, but STS because I was pushing him to see things my way and I wanted /want him to understand what I understand. It has been catalyst for both of us.

So while he can see obvious changes in our relationship before/after my awakening/kundalini activation, it is for him to use the catalyst as he wishes. It's a lesson for both of us, me to use the catalyst and reaffirm my choice to be loving and accepting, and he to experience something more profound than the way things were before. But it is totally up to him how he uses the catalyst, his pace,his timing, his journey. And as much as I want him to understand things my way, he can sense the difference between STO/STS energy and he reacts to that.

[Ali Quadir]

Yes, this is what I responded and objected to...

I compared the sentence to the old and fortunately mostly forgotten idea that women need men to help them to think properly.

Good heavens, Ali, I thought you knew me better than that!

So did I!!! And therefore I was shocked to hear you say: "My interpretation of Ra's words on the subject is that women have a sacred responsibility to help guide men from mere lust (lower chakras only) to the spiritual expression of sexuality (communion on the higher chakras also)." You seem to be terribly offended that I see gender bias in that. But lets reverse the situation... If I suddenly were to say "Men have a sacred responsibility to help women to think properly." Would you not respond in exactly the same way as I did?

For the sake of argument lets say you respond the same way.. You ask if you misunderstood me and remind me that those words sound dangerously close to a chauvinism that went extinct half a century ago...

Then imagine me responding not by revoking or clarifying my words, but strengthening them by quoting statistics and examples how women really need men, "oh they'd be totally lost without us!"...

That's the experience I had with you in this thread. You can claim I should know better. But I've seen a lot of very reasonable women express similar bias. In exactly the same way.

The past year I've been confronted with my own gender bias... By now I don't have the illusion that I am without bias.. I don't believe anyone is without bias. I know no people who I can say to be without this bias. We all have some of that bias Monica... You too.. That might sound condescending to you. But it's a fact of life to me.