How do you prove you're real?

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

I'm going to resign myself further to defeat actually. All the ideas mentioned in this thread are valid enough that I feel invalidated.

From Ana to Gem to Aion to APW to Min.

Y'all gave me a much better way to look at this all, thank you very much everyone.

[Minyatur]

You should watch the ending of Code Geass, 

The ending gave me shivers.

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

I didn't read all the responses in this thread (the old attention span ain't what it used to be) but I find myself wondering how could I prove to myself that I'm real unless the person I am trying to prove it to (myself) is real? Otherwise what value would the proof have?

I dunno, my advice would be don't think too hard about it. You're here having experiences, or at least you think you are and at the end of the day what's the difference?

DUDE

I LITERALLY JUST THOUGHT THIS!

Crazy! Thank you!

[Aion]

Oh, also, can I just express the great irony that your actual choice to deal with a fist-fight would be to SHOOT them.

I said I wouldn't actually, it's just the first feeling I get when subjected to violence in person and not in person.  There is a very real part of me that definitely feels hatred towards violence enough to walk in hypocrisy and desire to snuff it out.  Akin to wanting to destroy half the planet in a Nazi Genocide against Monsters and Ass Holes, followed by a prompt self-murder of the last monster left once the rest are gone, being myself...  You should watch the ending of Code Geass, it sums up my desire somewhat plainly enough what with everything else that happens in that anime.

But, IN REALITY (not MY MIND), my first response is to GET AWAY.  The addition of a desire to snuff it out further screams at me to just get away.

I don't want murder on my belt.  That I do it in my mind and half my life in video games is good enough for me.  I don't want to be murdered, I don't want to murder thusly so.

But when I see someone getting beaten down, I do want to murder.  I just have the mental faculties to know that desire is a big screwy can of worms that I intentionally plan to die over not opening if I must.

I can't make that more clear.  If I were put in that position of two people strapped to a chair with a gun pointing at each other and the option to kill the other person to live, I'd just resign myself to death.

I don't even want to kill in self defense, it's why I don't own a gun, or even a defense knife.  It's why I want to learn martial arts and not how to shoot a gun.

I just figure, be honest.  It's you guys.  Yes, violence makes me respond mentally in my mind with MORE VIOLENCE, fight the fire with a bigger fire and burn it all down!  The way the world ends.

Of course that's my first thought, I don't have the living experience to know firsthand the utter horror that comes with murder, or the living experience to know patience with cruel violence.  I'm a naive idiot my friend.

You and me both, bud. That being said, I do practice martial arts for the purpose of being able to defend, but the concern is less for self-defense for me and more the ability to protect others. Put it this way, while you run, I would stand and protect you so you could get away.

For me, I choose not to run because I see running to simply be an avoidance of catalyst and also an allowance of the threat of violence to continue on longer. By engaging the conflict and, hopefully, diffusing it with a shield if you will, the intention is to end the possibility of more violence.

This is actually what I want you to recognize. That your impulse for more violence isn't actually a monstrous, ill thing but is a response which tells me that in your heart you actually want to protect others and end violence. What you experience is actually an extension of love. What you actually desire is to protect others from the violence that you would be facing. It is seated in love.

The problem I see, however, is that you have identified yourself as both unwilling and at time incapable of embracing that desire, as you view it as 'stupid'. Do you see how you actually insult your own emotions and feelings? The truth is that there is a part of you that DOES want to fight and you are doing everything you can to avoid it. This is what I see when you say you would run and hide from a fight. I don't think it's actually the fight you'd be running from, I think it would be yourself and your actual desire to get in to the fray.

You could also keep in mind that you asked me to read you and I don't know if you've noticed but I've been reading your field every time I respond to you. Just sayin'.

I say, don't run from me, come and face yourself. After all, I am you and you are me.

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

I face myself enough every morning I wake up and look in my mirror.  I'm not meant for physical combat, I'm long range, affinity to bows and such.

I actually accepted my anger, it's exactly why I reveal it in honesty here.  And everything you said is basically correct, it's just as I have expressed.

I'm tired of these experiences.  I do have an absence of desire to know them, and as you express.  Is exactly why I have said.

Running is avoiding catalyst.  I am avoiding it, I have enough of it in my mind at the moment, adding more to the top isn't exactly high on my priority list.

And yes, I do desire to protect more than run, the problem is to me murder is acceptable in cases of monsters as defined by the social construct globally, basically serial killers, rapists, pedo's, major drug dealers, bad pimps, and such who slander in my mind the decent nature of sacred existence.  A distortion so severe it makes me angry, but it's a deep anger.  Maybe genetic, territorial?  I don't know, but it directly disobeys a nice rule I like to call, I don't kill people.  Why?  Dunno.  I'll die first.  Doesn't matter why or how, it's just feeling and I don't want to test it out.  If that means I run from the gun robber right in front of my robbing someone else, possibly.

But if I'm not even noticed, I'd probably do something if I saw a chance of success.  Life is, oddly...Despite it's sacredness, empty in meaning, death is essentially the same, so to make it in a chance to save would be better than nothing or worse running at all.

But I have stepped into some weird emotions lately Aion.  Weakness specifically.  I never saw myself as weak until recently, so I'm painted a bit differently.  I don't doubt I can throw a good punch.  I doubt I'll not pull back before the hit and soften the blow to basically nothing, no idea why, just a feeling.  And that's game and match never being in a fight, taking a punch or three would probably knock me off my feet.

That's reality for me man, I don't know anything hah.  So yes, fear too.  Life is pretty kind to me in the sense that everything hasn't fallen apart yet.  So lately it is just my mind driving me through pretty bad places.  It's why I'm meditating again, trying to get back some control of my thoughts in a sense that is, directing them even into silence and back out of silence.  I feel like I'm on a fine line between forcing and guiding my thoughts.  I'm trying to guide them, accepting it all as it comes along.

It just gets rough for me, emotions and thoughts run very closely together for me.  I need to balance everything out one by one but it piles up like a whirlwind blowing leaves against a house corner.

So, sometimes you get stuck on some things.  In my case, I don't want to murder.  If even to protect.  Why?  I'm done with this place and it's horror Aion.  I will now proceed to turn around, and run the fluuuke awwaaayy!

Cause even though I think it's all an illusion!  Pain in the moment is still experienced, and I don't like the idea of holding murder on my shoulders, I don't truly accept much beyond what Jade said to me the death I caused of a cat I ran over driving to work not too long ago.  I don't think I could hold that even for a monster, demonic, dragon, or otherwise human, I don't want that.

I can't uh, emphasize that beyond, I desire a lack of death in my life.  I desire a lack of suffering in my life.  And uh, I desire a huuuuge absence of pain.  I've seen what pain can do to people.  It is as I said, not made for aversion, but destruction.  It has no purpose occurring so vehemently in death past a point for a person, no reason for being limitless.  It is just a tool of destruction, and I do not wish to partake in that.  On either end of the scale.  Receiving or otherwise.

That's my reasoning's, my 'defense' for being a nihilist but still running from illusions and dreams.

In dreams are nightmares too, I've had those like anyone else, I can run from them in front of me in real life just as much if real life were a dream.

On the flipside, internally, I'm already doing everything I don't want to.  No idea why, it's like my brain got scrambled and I'm flipped to 'bad'.  I'd call it mental illness, except I don't know what this is.  It's like I just get these vivid understandings of other people's emotions, and sometimes they're so vulgar.  It's just so disturbing at times that I want to, stop.  And I can't.  So I take all of that in, and it's really bad if it's a busy day at work.  Just endless loops of similar feelings from everyone usually, and it's.  I can only call it exhausting, sometimes to the point of pain, and it's not physical pain it's just, it literally starts hurting to think, or feel, and I can't stop feeling.  So I tighten it all up under a mask and just try not to be dead honest with people like I am here, just like 'oh yeah I wish my store has a gun in it so I could at least defend myself.' because in reality I want to say that, but instead I just complain about how people rob and can be cruel.

So even on the inside I have to face myself every day, and just from my thread you should see where that got me.

There is no light with logic beyond it's ingenuity, the intelligence behind it is the light.  I tried so hard to fix myself up with just plain sense to try and give my emotions a break, and it just never worked, and along the way I lost complete control of my thoughts and stopped meditating to mostly 1 day every month.  It's like a whirlwind with how my mind operates, always on and it runs pretty efficiently like a vehicle engine.  Always revving.  So it gets intense, I want it to stop.

I'm avoiding catalyst because of those reasons.

I've thought about being a police officer.  Never really into detail though as I don't even know if I need a degree of some kind or what.  Never really wanted to look into it since the above reasons include me failing a psych exam without blatantly lying like a sociopath.  Which I don't want to do.  I just want to enjoy life, not suffer, please others and make them happy, and just live a simple loving life.

I don't imagine always wondering and hoping about when I'll die helps with any of that.  So I avoid it.  Just going to be the loner I am and stay to myself because I am different.  I don't want to be a problem or a bother, or get on anyone's nerves or any of that, but I still want to matter and be heard and not ridiculed or insulted for how I think.

I feel out of place to the extreme too, so I run.

(I can reiterate this post a trillion and one ways...Okay maybe only a million and one ways.  I've been trying to make sense of why!  Why!  Why!  Why are desires not met?  Why is it that progress is stopped?  Why are things so confusing and irritating?  I run away, I want to live in a small house in the middle of the woods living by myself and maybe a few others, just away from horror, away from confusion, away from manipulation, away from everything but a decent life.)

I like to think I'm very human, to the point I might, don't think I could ever distinguish a difference between being this, feeling so.  Finite.   Being told I'm, Infinite.

It hurts.  So.  I run.

Maybe I'm a nihilist because I no longer want to look at reality as possible, because it's, regretfully painful on a rainbowy vibrant scale of Ow!.  Hoping it'll be a bad dream, that I fall asleep and finally wake up from.  But it's not.  And I know that.  I know it's as real as a table you could throw at me (and painfully so).  I know it's more real than real can feel at times.  I know I can get so grounded in it that I feel poorly fused to reality, like I'm trying to just make sense of why everything is the way it is.  Why society is as it is that isn't IRRUMNARTI!  Because after a while, it begins to look so cruel and ignorant, so nonsensical with the pain and destruction involved, that nothing as simple as that could explain it.  It gets worse and I see and hear so many who seem to be coming out of that madness, but I never see any in person.  I am in a sense, isolated.

It's hard.  But I can't handle people, that's somehow even harder.  All because I can't stop understanding what they're feeling.  It drives me mad.

Aion, do you think reality does maybe flicker between an individuated and totality state at some kind of impossibly fast to perceive frequency (in like, the friggen trillions thousands ranges) that might explain why 32 fps is the most fluid rate for the human brain to perceive? (as a side question. )

[Aion]

From infinity to finity and back. It is indeed flickering.

Maybe you're convinced you're different when you're really not? Maybe it is that you see your own capacities that you fear the capacities of others?

What is pain if not resistance?

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

I think you have it backwards.  I see the capabilities of others and fear them seeing the possibilities in my self and the capabilities that exist.

Technically, any form of running is running from myself.  I need the exercise lol

I call resistance suffering, if pain is resistance then pain to me is suffering.

[Parsons]

I have wittled down the impulse to kill evil men to protect the innocent. I find it harder and harder to find these 'evil men' and instead see more and more confused people reverting orange ray. I only seem to feel that towards the truly psychopathic killler.

I still feel that impulse that you embrace in non-physical combat, Aion. I also feel that impulse from you, TTP; although you seem to altogether deny it at the moment. This impulse feels oddly familiar. Perhaps I am being presumptuous, but I think I remember you two From Before.

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

I am denying it, its part of rejection for me.

I used to think exactly what you thought, that they are confused people doing horror.

I no longer feel that justification is valid.  Many are not confused, if anything, they're more clearly aware than anyone even here on B4 it seems.

They know fully well all they do, and they do it continually because they know how to.  Confusion is acceptable for many, and for many it is not the driving factor to cruel behavior.

I could mention CIA Blacksite torture as an example.  that's not confusion, thats enjoyment.  Torture doesn't work, they continue to do it amyways, they understand and don't care.

I do.  So I'm just supposed to accept it is and...  Just, what?

-No answers-
-Silence-

So, I see it exists, do not want.  I'll enjoy going 34/14 on battlefield over actually causing real pain.  I'll let that be my negative polarization events, and not actual pain infliction.

[Minyatur]

I have wittled down the impulse to kill evil men to protect the innocent. I find it harder and harder to find these 'evil men' and instead see more and more confused people reverting orange ray. I only seem to feel that towards the truly psychopathic killer.

Ever thought that those might be the ones most in need of love?

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

1111 likes given AND received, very nice.

I like to think it comes down to the ol', you got a group of people in the trail of a subway train, and you have a lever to switch the track to a path with only one person, someone will die.  What do you do?

Well, if the single person is a psychopathic killer and the group of people are his/her victims, what would you do Min?

[Minyatur]

I am denying it, its part of rejection for me.

I used to think exactly what you thought, that they are confused people doing horror.

I no longer feel that justification is valid.  Many are not confused, if anything, they're more clearly aware than anyone even here on B4 it seems.

They know fully well all they do, and they do it continually because they know how to.  Confusion is acceptable for many, and for many it is not the driving factor to cruel behavior.

I could mention CIA Blacksite torture as an example.  that's not confusion, thats enjoyment.  Torture doesn't work, they continue to do it amyways, they understand and don't care.

I do.  So I'm just supposed to accept it is and...  Just, what?

-No answers-
-Silence-

So, I see it exists, do not want.  I'll enjoy going 34/14 on battlefield over actually causing real pain.  I'll let that be my negative polarization events, and not actual pain infliction.

Well wether you accept it or not is up to you. 

At the end of time (alternative to the end of the day), it is a mirror unto what you are, unto what each of us is. We all are every thing, every being, every emotion, every event and every situation. Nothing is otherwise than how you are, nothing deserve less or more love than others.

[Minyatur]

1111 likes given AND received, very nice.

I like to think it comes down to the ol', you got a group of people in the trail of a subway train, and you have a lever to switch the track to a path with only one person, someone will die.  What do you do?

Well, if the single person is a psychopathic killer and the group of people are his/her victims, what would you do Min?

Like anything else, I'd let my intuition guide me. I guess saving the bigger amount of people is most likely whether the single person is a killer or a saint.

Maybe fate would want me to save the killer because the act of compassion would bring great changes to his soul, who knows.

Btw I get it's an analogy but other than a situation where I'd be put in a situation where the choice is somehow given to me, the experiences of others are their own.

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

So how do you explain Animal Farms, Pedophile Rings alongside the Child Sex Slave's and their Owners, the serialistic murderers inside Police Departments and inside Government Agencies, War, Gang-Rape and Murder, Torture, Dehumanization and Slavery, and such if nothing deserves less of more love than others?

I mean, damn dude.  The World has parts of it permanently scarred with Bloodshed and segments of land plagued by violated and traumatized souls still sticking around in misery at what was done to them.

Mental Hospitals.

...
So what if the single person was a saint and the group of people were psychopathic serial killers (presumably in straight-jackets)?

In the famous words of Archer, "There's no Guarantees in this World." You don't know what kind of crazy catalyst you'll end up in.

[Minyatur]

So how do you explain Animal Farms, Pedophile Rings alongside the Child Sex Slave's and their Owners, the serialistic murderers inside Police Departments and inside Government Agencies, War, Gang-Rape and Murder, Torture, Dehumanization and Slavery, and such if nothing deserves less of more love than others?

I mean, damn dude.  The World has parts of it permanently scarred with Bloodshed and segments of land plagued by violated and traumatized souls still sticking around in misery at what was done to them.

Mental Hospitals.

Yet nothing of it is unlike you, we all are the very same thing, it is fate only that either makes us a saint or a monster.

So I'll repeat my earlier statement to parsons :

Ever thought that those might be the ones most in need of love?

...
So what if the single person was a saint and the group of people were psychopathic serial killers (presumably in straight-jackets)?

In the famous words of Archer, "There's no Guarantees in this World."  You don't know what kind of crazy catalyst you'll end up in.

Like I said, intuition.

[Minyatur]

In my view what people reject in monsters is that there are many possible paths of cause and effect that would bring them to become exactly that.

Like I said nothing is unlike you, everything is you under different experiences. So think about what kind of fate would bring you to become what they are.

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

I do that in video games.  GTA IV and V used to be fun to do it in.

But in reality, some people have a foundation that lets them say No to those situations easier even as they happen.

It's not like I run away from a guy with a flat tire who obviously needs help.  I just don't engage potential monsters or desire to be engaged by monsters because I don't feel like becoming a monster to survive the encounter.

Because that's the big iffy root of Red Ray, killing to survive, how does one reconcile and balance this?  A lack of choice?  It's interesting to ponder, but I like this lack of experiencing it, I do desire for it to continue this way, quietly for a time, so I can heal.

Afterwards, I'll see about everything but for now, I just need my time to make sense of me for my sake.

Red Ray issues are some of the darned hardest to make sense of for me, it's like trying to make sense of being a 'beast'.

[Minyatur]

Well about red red, I can't know how I'd reat without facing it. Part believes I'd let myself be the one to die because I don't care that much about my incarnation to begin with. I'll be on earth as long as fate wants me to be.

[Minyatur]

What I meant by rejecting, is that it is not seeking to understand and that in understanding there can only be love and compassion.

Picture that to hurt others is a way to hurt self. Because as all is one, there is only self to hurt. Killers, monsters and such are sad things more than anything and require a lot of healing.

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

Oh, oh!

Heh, no, I reject it because I understand it, and desire to be anything but that.  Even at the cost of looking at it and saying, "I see, I accept, I saw, I reject, thank you and good bye."

Here's why, as I said, the ones I am most concerned about are the ones who act like they care but don't, or worse blatantly have no consideration of care and actually not only enjoy it, but are addicted to it.

Humanity is an addictive species, you'd be amazed how addiction can twist a being into horror.

[Minyatur]

Oh, oh!

Heh, no, I reject it because I understand it, and desire to be anything but that.  Even at the cost of looking at it and saying, "I see, I accept, I saw, I reject, thank you and good bye."

Here's why, as I said, the ones I am most concerned about are the ones who act like they care but don't, or worse blatantly have no consideration of care and actually not only enjoy it, but are addicted to it.

Humanity is an addictive species, you'd be amazed how addiction can twist a being into horror.

From what you've been saying, I think you are scared of distortions within you. But they won't just disappear if you do not embrace them and seek their roots. One cannot work on itself without first knowing itself.

Do you believe that every answer that you seek is within you and that your inability to perceive them can only come from your own desire of being blinded to yourself?

On my part I do accept that there are "monsters" and that they are me under a certain fate, but in no way does that change anything to my current inclination toward pacifism. Not that I believe pacifism to be absolute, just that I do not feel the need to be otherwise as I am.

In a way I do believe I have been pretty much everything that can be despised, but it also seems to me that I have made peace with myself.

[Aion]

I have wittled down the impulse to kill evil men to protect the innocent. I find it harder and harder to find these 'evil men' and instead see more and more confused people reverting orange ray. I only seem to feel that towards the truly psychopathic killler.

I still feel that impulse that you embrace in non-physical combat, Aion. I also feel that impulse from you, TTP; although you seem to altogether deny it at the moment. This impulse feels oddly familiar. Perhaps I am being presumptuous, but I think I remember you two From Before.

You find what you are looking for. I don't really use the word evil, but I have definitely had encounters with individuals who are very aware of their manipulations of others. I think it is less common than might be thought, but I think also more common than some think.

I, for myself, in viewing everyone as confused do not automatically dismiss behaviour as merely confused. I just genuinely don't believe that everyone can be expected to fall in to the lines of indifference although sure there's a majority. The thing is that it's not about finding 'evil men' to mess with, it's about the balance of free will.

Those who choose to manipulate others unfairly throw free will out of balance through infringement. These individuals thus also forfeit the natural protection of their free will because through infringement one opens themselves to be 'set right' or to have free will returned to balance. Thus, my work is really just a matter of energy transfer and equalization. Like a sound producer I work to get the levels just right for balance.

I have, however, had clashes with negative adepts before and I think it is very naive to think they do not exist or that they all just stay in the shadows and leave everyone alone.

[Parsons]

I was using the term 'evil' for the sake of making the conversation easier. I also don't quite see it that way.

As for what I meant by confused, I always come back to "forgive them for they know not way they do". I consider virtually everyone who truly doesn't know what they are doing to be confused. I do think there are plenty of people out there that DO know what they are doing (some much more than others. Those are the ones I have the impulse to oppose.

[rva_jeremy]

Actually, how do you define not being real?

Exactly.  What does it mean to be "real"?  Are you or I even competent to certify reality, and if we were, how would we accomplish that?

How can you prove anything, for that matter?  Is anything certain?  Wouldn't it be kind of sad if it were?

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

I'd be ecstatic if it were personally. But that's only cause it looks like reality will be about basically creating it through ourselves as far as quantum physics experiments have shown.

[Minyatur]

I think what we truly are is a mirror among infinite others, that all reflect the OIC in each their own manner.

[AnthroHeart]

We also reflect the OIC by what we don't do.

[rva_jeremy]

I personally don't think the verb "to be" possesses any real, definite meaning at all. It's literally make-believe.

[The_Tired_Philosopher]

To be or not to be, that is the question that is now meaningless

[rva_jeremy]

LOL, I think defining what existence "means" is another boundary of intellect tied to third density. Reason and recursive introspection do not work well together.