Protein for Vegans and Vegetarians

[Monica]

I think it is safe to say that needs to vary from person to person, and from time to time. But for the most part, the research indicates situations where a person might require more than 0.8 grams of protein per kilogram body weight. For example, people who are trying to build muscle mass or lactating moms producing milk. If the body is in need of repair due to illness or injury, protein needs may also temporarily increase.

Sometimes if somebody has severe renal disease and is on dialysis, they will go below that amount, as the kidneys are responsible for filtering out the urea (nitrogen waste) from the blood.

As far as I am aware, hardly anybody argues against that protein needs are less than 0.8 g / kg. Those few sources which I have come across that do tend to be making emotional arguments, rather than intellectual ones and don't seem to have much of an understanding of biochemistry.

Even if a vegan ignored protein needs completely, and ate based on vitamin and mineral content alone, they would end up getting enough protein anyway because they would be eating plenty of nuts, seeds, and legumes.

Where people tend to get into trouble is when they conflate different approaches to diet and/or have a personality-type that is inherently mistrustful of people who are rationally-minded and instead trust whomever seems the most excited.

For example, the principle of a low-fat diet really has little bearing for somebody who is already eating little to no animal product. It is the animal fat which causes health problems. Plant fat (nuts, seeds, avocado, coconut) is a good thing, and omega-3s are absolutely necessary.

There is also some anti-bean misinformation floating around that talks about molecules called phytates present in them which interfere with mineral absorption. While phytates do interfere with mineral absorption, beans contain WAY more minerals than could possibly be interfered with by the phytates. Eating beans will definitely result in a net gain of minerals by the body. The misinformation occurs when some folks make the claim that eating phytates will somehow pull minerals out of the body, resulting in a loss. This is just not true. Now- soaking beans does cause some of the phytates to be broken down which could increase the bioavailability of the nutrients. But even unsoaked beans are a great food choice.

As one can see- if somebody is trying to go vegan, but also low-fat, and also avoids beans, they are probably going to get into some trouble nutritionally-speaking.

Agreed on all points!

However generally speaking, my intuitive sense is that sprouted and fermented veggies are the way to go.

Optimally, yes!

There are good arguments on both sides of the raw vs. cooked debate so with respect to that I tend to stay in the middle with lightly steamed. It's definitely a poor choice to boil the heck out of one's vegetables, but there are some valid concerns about raw- especially in people whose digestive systems might already be compromised.

I'm one of those people who had severely compromised digestion (which started during those years I was sick due to acidity and mineral deficiency from drinking distilled water). I do best with sprouts, raw veggie juices, and raw veggies stews made in the VitaMix.

I'm not totally vegan. Your thread on protein is very timely. Because I was trying to lose weight, I wasn't eating much. I realize now, after reading all this, that eating more, including more protein, might help with weight loss. (I should be skinny, with the lean, clean diet I have! But my metabolism slowed down when I was sick years ago.)

So, you might be pleased to know that your thread has prompted me to pay more attention to protein. I knew that protein was needed to build muscle, and muscle requires more calories so can help with weight loss. But I didn't have the exact numbers. So thank you!

I don't digest cooked protein very well. I do mostly soaked nuts, seeds, and nut/seed milks. After reading this, I've increased my nut milks, and have even started tossing in a raw (organic, free-range!!!!) egg into my smoothie occasionally. (I could never stomach it otherwise, but blended, I can't even tell it's there. And, I have no issue with eggs provided they're humanely produced. No animal died!)

So...good info! Thanks!

Then again, for the vast majority of people, simply eating more veggies, in whatever form, is going to be a vast improvement!

True!

EAT YOUR GREENS!

YES!!!

Dark leafy greens are indeed the most nutrient-dense food one could eat. I dunno why but many people seem to have some sort of mental block about these. (Mind control?)

Haha, probably! Or maybe it's that canned spinach Popeye ate...yuck!

When I was a kid, the only veggies I ever saw fresh were iceberg lettuce and tomato. I remember seeing my ex-sister-in-law forcefeeding her daughters canned asparagus and canned spinach. I thought they were the grossest stuff ever!

Now, I marvel at how delicious fresh, raw (or lightly steamed) asparagus is! I often juice it too. And fresh, raw spinach is so wonderful! I juice it, I make salads, and I make stews with it in the VitaMix.

In our house, we all juice dark leafy greens (kale, beet, spinach, chard, etc.) on a daily basis. I probably get the juice from a whole bunch of kale (or other green) daily, in addition to another bunch's worth in the veggie stew. I have no idea how many cups that is, but it's way more than I could ever eat in salads. Yea for juicers and VitaMix!

What I am talking about are DARK. LEAFY. GREENS. You know, like kale, collards, turnip greens, mustard greens, beet greens, or ANYTHING greens!

Yup. And remember the wild greens too! I've been making green smoothies every day with wild purslane. Did you know that purslane is the only plant other than bluegreen algae that has high amounts of Omega-3?

I've been eating a couple of handfuls' worth of purslane every day, and the next day, the plant looks like I never took anything! It just gives and gives and gives. I love love love purslane! it tastes sorta like spinach, but tangier. It's a succulent. It's beautiful and you probably have some growing in your backyard!

Dandelions are awesome too but of course they taste strong. Excellent for the liver. I am horrified that my neighbor routinely sprays his yard. I tell the dandelions to come over to my place!

Another awesome wild green is nettles. Oh, I wish I could get nettles to grow in my yard! They keep trying but dry up. They are exquisite steamed.

Greens are so easy to grow. I planted about 10 plants - kale, chard, and lettuce - last fall, in pots, and we had enough juicing and salad greens for the 4 of us all winter and into the spring. Saved a lot of $$! And got fresh, organic greens! I'm planting right now for the fall. Greens don't do well here in the summer - too hot. (but I have wonderful purslane!)

First and foremost, dark leafy greens are a great source of calcium. Something which even many dietitians seem to overlook due to being indoctrinated by the dairy association. Dark leafy greens are -also- a great source of magnesium. This is because magnesium is at the core of the chlorophyll molecule which plants use to capture energy from sunlight. Hence: more green = more magnesium. (Purple fruits tend to have magnesium as well, but for a different reason.) Incidentally, magnesium is also at the core of a molecule called CoQ10 which is essential for energy metabolism.

I didn't know that about purple fruits.

Mag is the at the core of bluegreen algae too, by the way. It has more chlorophyll than any other plant. (We call it concentrated sunlight!)

Calcium and magnesium work together as a pair in biological systems. (As do sodium and potassium.) Therefore, it stands to reason that consuming a lot of calcium without the corresponding magnesium (i.e. dairy products) is probably not the best idea.

Yeah, actually causes calcium to deposit outside the bones...

Beans are also a great source of magnesium- two of the highest being the coffee bean and the cacao bean.

That's good to know for coffee and chocolate lovers. I can't do either of those because I'm ultra-sensitive to caffeine. What's next in line?

But anyway, back to protein. Yes, it is true that, compared to other vegetables, dark leafy greens have tend to have more protein. Problem is- there wasn't much to begin with.

Enough to fuel a gorilla...but they have to munch all day!

I wonder how much protein is in a glass of kale juice...I guess I'd have to figure out how many cups in a bunch of kale. I'll do that next time I make kale juice! :idea:

1 cup of lentils = 50 grams of protein

I don't think that's right. That sounded high so I did a search and they all say 17-18 grams per cup. Unless you meant dry rather than cooked?

Almonds and lentils are both 25% protein by weight. By calorie, almonds are 15% protein and lentils are 30% protein. See the difference?

Yes. Good info, but I'm more interested in the actual amount per serving, which I find more useful. I've never cared much for those %-based diets. Seems like a lot of trouble!

The reason so many people are confused about nutrient content of food is because we are using three different units of measurement- the calorie (energy), the gram (mass), and the cup (volume)- and people talk about them as if they were interchangeable concepts, which they are not.

Aha! :idea:

On top of this, when some intellectual, rational, nerdy, "math whiz" type comes along one of these people, or their websites, they rapidly conclude that the speaker/writer doesn't know what they are talking about. And this is because... they don't. They are using words without knowing what they mean. They haven't actually looked up the definitions of the words they are using, and so they are speaking in babble. What is worse, they are "educating" others in this babble-speak, and thus adding to the confusion already present in their minds. As if it isn't bad enough with the dairy and corn associations crawling down our throats with propaganda at every opportunity.

So true! I just saw an atrocious video by David Wolfe, one of the raw vegan gurus. He totally got it all mixed up about water! It was awful! And so many people follow his advice.

What is sometimes even worse than that- when faced with the actual truth about their comments, they tend to get butthurt, and react emotionally, rather than asking intelligent questions, just as you have done here.

Then- when confronted by a "skeptic" these people tend to conclude that they must be a member of "the establishment" or a "disinformation agent".

Pretty ironic since these folks themselves are some of the biggest agents of disinformation, and play right into the hands of the establishment!

I agree that truth should be able to withstand scrutiny. With the caveat, however, that many truths cannot be verified using mainstream methodologies. Homeopathy is a prime example.

And, established 'facts' sometimes turn out to be false, as new info becomes available. Not saying this is the case here with protein, but just sayin'.

That's great! We try to aim for 3 - 4 cups a day but it doesn't always happen. Thinking of creative ways to include greens, like in smoothies and soups as you mentioned, is a great approach!

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Incidentally- when consuming raw or steamed greens, dressing them with 1 tablespoon of something oily (like olive or coconut oil) and 1 tablespoon of something acidic (like lemon juice or apple cider vinegar) will help to make the vitamins and minerals more bioavailable.

Good info!

As we can see, from birth to about nine months, we should expect baby to put on about 1/2 kilo per month. That's about 1 pound. Keep in mind this is "on average".

Now the "rule of thumb" for feeding is about 2.5 ounces of milk daily per pound of baby. Breast milk has about 1/3 gram of protein per ounce.

So let's do the math:

Baby is born weighing 8.0 lbs and it feeds 20 ounces of milk per day. The 20 ounces of milk contains about 7 grams of protein. That's almost 2.0 grams / kg, which is in the "bodybuilder" range of protein intake.

At one month, baby now weighs 9.0 lbs and feeds 22.5 ounces of milk per day. The 22.5 ounces of milk contains about 7.5 grams of protein. Still in the "bodybuilder" range.

At two months: 10 lbs weight, 25 ounces milk, 8 grams protein. The ratio is going down, but still in muscle building range at 1.8 g / kg.

At three months: 11 lbs weight, 27.5 ounces milk, 9 grams protein. Still at 1.8 g / kg.

At six months, baby should be taking whole food in addition to breast milk. But even if they weren't, let's do the math: 15 lbs weight, 37.5 ounces milk, 12.5 grams protein. Still at 1.8 g / kg.

Cow's milk has about three times as much protein as human milk, or about 1 gram of protein per ounce. But then again, a newborn calf can be putting on a pound a day, rather than a pound a month. They also take a lot more milk!

Oh wow! See, I got bit on the % thing again! I read that human milk is something like 2% protein (not sure if I'm remembering correctly, but it was a low number). I don't know if it was by weight, calories or volume. Never before have I ever seen anyone do the math as you just did! Now it finally makes sense!! Thanks!

A lot of these people you are referring to that talk about how much protein greens have or how much protein babies supposedly don't need, are misinformed. They read facts and figures, and then falsely interpret them to fit according to their personal agendas and preconceived notions about what they want to believe.

If they would have actually taken the time to sit down, look a few things up on the Internet, and do some simple math on a calculator, they would see the truth for themselves quite plain as day.

Well, in order to do that you first need to know what data you're looking for. They have the right idea - for example they know that gorillas get strong on mostly fruit and greens, and they know that babies grow muscles, bones and organs on Mama's low-protein breastmilk, so the obvious conclusion is that those foods are adequate.

The mistake is making the conclusion that those foods must be 'high' in protein, when they're not. And yet, somehow the foods are adequate! So the answer has to do with volume consumed, and probably assimilability.

It took me about an hour to put together all of the information you asked for in your last question. I took the time out of my day to do this because I actually care enough about babies to do this. And I don't even have kids!

I had wondered about the human milk question, but didn't have the background knowledge about protein so it just never entered my mind to do what you did. But I'm glad you did!

Point being- I'm sure all these parents who are spreading misinformation would have a conniption fit were I to suggest that they didn't love and care for their babies more than any other parent on the planet.

It's not parents who are saying that...it's proponents of low-protein diets. I see now that their entire premise is flawed.

Now here is my question: Why is there, as you say, an ongoing protein "debate"? What is there to debate when the facts are well-established and easily demonstrable? Who is really benefiting from this debate? And why?

I think the debate has more to do with sources of protein, than with amounts of protein. As you said, a vegan can get plenty of protein without counting grams of protein at each meal. The debate probably started before this fact was obvious, back when vegetarians were on the defensive.

The adequacy of a well-balanced vegetarian diet, even vegan, is so well-established now that we no longer need to be defensive.

Also, I think we should cut them a little slack. So much of what we've been told has turned out to be false, that it's reasonable for the established 'facts' about protein to be questioned.

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My own assumption (without asking) is that we all have the ability to choose what DNA to activate. I can't really say our gut bacteria is hereditary or genetic when conscious choice can change that.

I agree! I also think we can mutate, so all these facts could change.