In regards to eating meat

[Pablísimo]

I believe that in this case you can use the light and tell them: "Who said it? Me?? Neeh! You've read it wrong!!!

And in all seriousness - so what if you relax a little and/or tire and forget to preface an opinion with that being your subjective thought/opinion/view/understanding? When/if someone comes forward and start asking/yelling about it, you just say that you forgot to add that it was your subjective opinion and not the Law of the One Infinite Creator, so we can all go on with our business. Or if someone gets offended, then an appology is in order. Maybe we take ourselves too seriously sometimes...?

Oh Ankh, you've done it again! This is solid, sensible advice imbued with love. Thank you... it seems so simple when you put it like that. I think you're also right to remind us that perhaps we do take ourselves too seriously sometimes.

I do think it behooves us all to show a little compassion and cut some slack to our friends in this thread, across the dietary spectrum, who have been participating for so long in this conversation, that they don't always write as nuanced as they really feel when they get caught up in the conversation, which can cause misunderstandings.

If I find myself in one these misunderstandings, henceforth, I shall return to this bit of advice you've given me here. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with me, I think I was perhaps guilty of over-thinking that aspect of the discussion, AND taking myself too seriously.

I am awed and humbled once again to be in the presence of such loving and wise beings. Thank you, sister, for your words.

Then, that would be your opinion! You are entitled to it. However, I might point out that certain opinions of what is best for the "all" might lead one to unnecessary suffering if what they are observing in the outer world is perceived to be very different from what they believe is best for the "all".

First of all, I'd like to thank you for acknowledging that I'm entitled to an opinion. I sincerely believe everyone else is entitled to their opinion, as well. From reading this long and winding thread, it honestly wasn't clear to me if that premise was accepted --- that we all have a right to our own biased, subjective opinions.

I think we can actually work on both at the same time. I can work on learning Acceptance of those things that I believe are not best for the "all", and those aspects of reality that I find uncomfortable or painful, while simultaneously taking actions and making ethical choices that I believe are congruent with my current, 3D life path. I honestly see no contradiction between these two things.

In my opinion, the development of the quality of "faith" involves the attitude that whatever is happening in the moment is in fact, what is best for the "all". I don't fully understand or embody this attitude myself, but see it as a guiding principle along my personal path of spiritual growth.

Continuing with this pertinent densities perspective-

As a third density being myself, I can give third density qualities to a 2D entity no matter if there is space/time lifeblood in them. Meaning, I can create fourth density compassion for a dead animal and continue on with consuming what is left behind. By applying the thought of densities in this way, I do myself and the deceased a service.

We all consider time/space to be the everlasting for our m/b/s where progression continues forever. So why do we need to focus on the end of space/time for this animal, or anything else? Meaning, why fixate on an "end" if we don't believe in an "end".

Monkey, I put your statement here with Tenet's as well because though you are mentioning two different but related concepts, I feel my response is pertinent to both yours and Tenet's true observations on higher understanding.

I think there is great wisdom and truth in these statements and others like them along these lines that you have eloquently argued. I honestly do find this perspective helpful and awareness of this 'higher' reality is one of the things that helps me with acceptance, compassion, and understanding about a great many topics.

At a certain level of abstraction, all is well, and there is no 'end' to anyone. Everything is acceptable and there is no right and wrong. Beyond the veil, beyond densities and discussion forums, underpinning the "all" there is only Oneness. There is only Creator.

From this Oneness, there are many distortions, including all of things that we subjectively label "good" or "bad", STS or STO, right or wrong. However, even though this is true it can also be used as a way to rationalize and justify apathy and indifference. This converts what I see as great truths into functionally meaningless "New Age Platitudes". Now, I am certainly NOT saying that is what YOU are doing right now, I want to make that very clear. I am speaking in a general way about the "All is well no matter what" concept that gets bandied about. In my own life, if I am honest with myself, I must admit that I've used it both as a way to e accept, honor, and integrate my experiences in a healthy spiritual fashion, but also as a way to escape from dealing with catalyst and complex situations. It is up to each of us to look within and decide how we are using this higher understanding.

For a wanderer in particular, I see this higher awareness of Oneness as a great boon, and yet also a great pitfall, depending upon how we apply that knowledge.

It can be very healing when intense catalyst happens to know, deep within, that it's all OK. When I see the suffering and misery of many other beings, the daily murders, the rapes, the terrorism and the torture, the natural disasters, the control and domination of vulnerable people by the stronger, the hijinks of the negative elite, and on and on, it is easy for me to become very unbalanced and experience the suffering that you spoke of in your first paragraph. By meditating upon these higher concepts, I am able to find healing, compassion, and understanding about many things and KNOW that all is well. This is positive use of the knowledge, in my view.

In contrast, when I instead choose to focus upon this understanding as a way to retreat inside myself and not process catalyst, conundrums, and ethical choices that I am faced with as a 3D being, then I think this is a negative use of the knowledge that cuts myself off from the experiences I am having in my current incarnation. Whatever ideas I have about what I might be in an ultimate sense, I am a 3D being right now with a limited understanding and limited information, with no real memory of past lives or other densities. As such, one of the things I feel I am doing in this 3D incarnation, is making a polarity choice. In my case, that is STO, which in and of itself carries with it inherent bias towards perceiving reality in a certain way. In order to pursue this STO path, I need to make ethical choices about the decisions, people, opportunities, and situations I find myself in. Otherwise, I am opting-out of the very fabric of subjective, biased, experience of third density and am not progressing down my chosen 3D path of Service to Others.

Though I think it's fine to self-identify as a Wanderer, I think it is also important to have an awareness that right now we are incarnated as 3D beings. We don't honestly know if we are Wanderers, but even if we are, by choosing to incarnate as 3D humans, we also agree to forget perfect understanding of Oneness and journey through these moments as a native 3D being learning, or perhaps RE-learning the lessons of this Density, which is essentially choosing a polarity and refining that choice through a series of ethical decisions about whatever catalyst that I am presented with, from the mundane to the magical.

Service to others is a biased point of view, and yet it is a view that I truly agree with, using my limited understanding and subjective experiences. Thus, I choose to engage with the density in which I exist and try to pursue a positive path of development even if, at a higher level of abstraction, I realize that all is well, or perhaps better said that all is One. I view the situations and options I find myself given as opportunities to make ethical choices to further refine my STO choice. If my neighbors need help with something, I help them rather than know that whatever they are struggling with is OK. I believe that, in my particular circumstances, that killing animals for food, especially when those same animals needlessly suffered, is not congruent with my STO ethics and goals, as I understand them.

Right now I am speaking only for me, and not for anyone else. I honestly do not find meat eating to be congruent with my chosen path of Service to Others Polarity. This view is against the backdrop of A) having other dietary options in plentiful supply and B) knowledge of the suffering and barbarity inherent in how the vast majority of the meat that is available to me is produced.

It could be that my logic is skewed, I am blinded by compassion, or I'm just distorted differently than other people. Given how much I don't know, I try very hard not to judge other people for their own choices. They are all doing exactly what I am -- the best they can in their unique situations with available data. Here I only explain my reasoning, I do not condemn others with a different reasoning/understanding.

To take this further, consider Ultimate Fighting shows. For those that don't know, this is basically an extreme form of "boxing" or maybe "gladiator combat" where people beat eachother to a bloody pulp while other people watch it as entertainment. From a certain higher perspective, there is nothing wrong with it at all. There is no right and wrong from a high enough level of abstraction, or Reality if you prefer. However, as an STO-dedicated being, I do not find it congruent with my path to watch those shows as entertainment. I also do not find it congruent with my Path to buy tickets to or support the production of these types of events. I don't think I should judge others who find it entertaining, or who don't see it as a negative thing, or who do not consider it to be worthy enough of an issue to even think about. I don't know with absolute certainty that my perspective is the "One true way", so I leave everyone to make up their own minds about what they think. It's not for me to judge those who help them in or even enjoy things that I find incongruent with my path. But here we are discussing our reasons and rationale, in a discussion thread, and I'm sharing my perspective. No more, but not less valid than anyone else's.

Pablísimo Wrote:Isn't it also OK to believe things and have opinions about what's good for all of us, overall? Knowing it's a subjective opinion and other people have their own views as to what's the better choice for people and we might even be wrong?

It's OK with me!

Pablísimo Wrote:If we both voluntarily attend a debate on the topic of meat eating in the spiritual context, then I think sharing my opinion is fair game. I bring this up because I think discussing the topic in a thread devoted to it is different than pushing your views on other people.

This is most definitely a thread to discuss meat eating in the spiritual context, and anything is game as far as opinions are concerned.

I am deeply appreciative of you taking this stance. I agree 100%. In this thread to discuss meat eating in the spiritual context, anything is fair game as far as opinions are concerned. Well, so long as it's done with respect, a knowledge that we are all the Creator, and that we are all biased.

Pablísimo Wrote: D o you see the distinction I am trying to make?

Of course!

Thank you!! It is really nice to be understood. Agreement isn't necessary, but understanding helps alot.

Pablísimo Wrote:This is true, of course... but is there any way to determine objectively what is self-righteousness and what is passionate conviction?

I am not sure that it is possible to objectively determine anything.

Hahahaha, how true!!!

I want to pause here for a moment to note the humor in this. One of the funniest things about existence I've ever encountered is the fact that we are living in a totally subjective universe and yet, even knowing this, I still struggle so darn hard to be objective!!! I've found this to be evidence of the appropriateness of the term "Divine Comedy"!"

But I believe a general guideline would involve the willingness to abandon one's passionate convictions upon being handily dispatched, or if shown to be glaringly contradictory, or just plain wrong.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but here again I do agree with you as well. I would just modify it slightly, though. In my own case, as I have experienced directly from this thread, I found that my overall views didn't change, I just ended up with a more moderate and expansive position. The convictions are still very much there, I just feel more balanced and non-judgemental now than when I first read this thread years ago. It has helped me grow and evolve massively. Contributions from sincere, thoughtful, spiritual and wise people who eat meat, such as yourself, and those who don't, such as Monica, have helped me grow in this space. It doesn't mean I don't have my convictions anymore, but I am without question much more centered, grounded, and non-judgemental about it all than I once was. (Not to say I've perfected the balance in this space yet... just that I can see some progress when I look within).

Quote:What I meant by that is that 3D, as I understand it from the Ra Material, is a density whose goal, for lack of a better word, is one that centers on making a polarity choice. STS or STO, and that this polarity choice made in 3D is one that forms a foundation for further work in higher densities, at least to a point.

Yes, I completely agree with the above statement. What I was attempting to question is whether or not it makes sense to consider actions taken toward unpolarized entities as polarizing, in and of themselves. I can see a valid argument for either case.

Ah ok, thanks for clarifying what you meant, I didn't catch that at first. Well, I can see a valid argument in either case as well. To me, though, subjectively, I think it does make sense to consider actions taken towards unpolarized entities as polarizing. If I put firecrackers in frog mouths and watch them blow up for amusement then I feel that is indeed a polarizing action. I also feel that, when I notice an insect walking across my desk and put it outside the house to continue its Journey instead of simply squashing it, then I feel that too is a polarizing action. I don't see it as any different were I to hurt or help a 3D being, I view it as a polarizing action for me, and the state of polarization of the other entity involved does not play a role in determining the polarity of my OWN action. This is all subjective, of course, and I realize that not only am I biased, but there are other ways to view these situations. I simply offer my understanding, nothing more.

How do we know that physical suffering and death don't support the 2D entity in gaining self-awareness? What if longevity doesn't factor much into the equation of whether or not a 2D entity had a "successful" incarnation? What if certain 2D entities are actually seeking to be incorporated into 3D bodies? How do we know that it isn't considered a great honor and achievement for a 2D entity to be plucked out of the ground by a human, put in a vase, and appreciated for its beauty before meeting a premature death?

These kinds of gems of wisdom are precisely the things I've learned from this meat thread that has helped me to take a more expansive, non-judgemental, and compassionate view of people who disagree with me on meat eating. This idea has come up before in this thread, and I find it a very compelling one. Thank you for reminding me of it.

I have noted that human suffering aids our evolution - it certainly has in my own case. So it would stand to reason that it could help 2D beings learn Self-Awareness, too. This is plausible to me... even probable as it would also fit in well with my higher understanding that everything, ultimately, is well. All things, even the negative, work together for the greater good.

and yet, even with this understanding... and possibility/probability that their violent experiences do help them on their journey of self-awareness, I don't think offering that catalyst to them, directly or indirectly, is congruent with my personal, particular, STO path. Just as I see the value in the Service that certain negatively polarized 3D beings and groups provide to other humans, but I don't think it would be appropriate for me to participate in the offering of that negative catalyst, given my own polarity choice. Subjective yes, but I never claimed to be unbiased.

I don't have the answers for these, and am more than a bit incredulous when others claim that they do. However, to conclude that cows in a factory farm video are needlessly suffering seems fairly straightforward to me.

I don't have answers for all of that either, to be honest and I'm more than a bit incredulous myself when I hear claims that people do. Whether that's what's actually been said by others on this thread is debatable, but in principle I think there has to be a recognition that we do NOT know these things with certainty. All we can do is make the best choices we possibly can with the information we have.... oh, and it doesn't hurt to cut eachother some slack at the same time.

So then, would it be fair to say that you don't expect anybody standing at the "pearly gates" of fourth density with a list of meat-eaters to be refused entry?

LOL!!!! Yes, absolutely fair to say. I don't know how many of us are going to graduate in this particular cycle, but I am pretty sure meat eaters will be well represented. In my view, eating meat, or any other one single aspect of a person does not prevent them from entering those 'pearly gates' of 4D. I have known so many wonderful, spiritual, kind, warm and compassionate meat eaters that are well beyond my subjective view of the "harvestability" mark, that there is no doubt in my mind such an entrance exam won't be taken. I confess to you that I didn't always see it that way, though. It took some growing and expansion through exchanges like this for me to stop using meat eating as a spiritual "litmus test". I don't do that anymore, sincerely, but I once did.

Though I view diet as an ethical choice, I certainly don't view it as the only ethical choice. We are far, far, far more than that.

I'll see you all on the other side where we can all have a good laugh about our disagreements in 3D

You're most welcome, and thanks again to you!

My pleasure. I have felt no judgement or anger in these exchanges. Just calm, intelligent, and thoughtful discussion.

Sincerely, I thank you, Brother, for taking the time to explain your perspective to me in such detail as it helps me grow and expand. I also thank you for doing your part to elevate this dialogue again so that we can all benefit. I am very grateful for your manner of communicating with me about this complex and emotive topic. Namaste, amigo!

Love to all

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I would also like to say that I consider any argument about the meat industry found in a thread about spiritual implications of eating meat to be off topic, with a societal orientation.

Well, that's a fair perspective, and I absolutely honor your right to have it, even if I don't see it the same way.

We all have different areas we assign more subjective importance. For instance, I don't consider the immune systems' response to microbes particularly important or relevant to the discussion, but I think it's a fair branch of this mighty tree for those that do wish to explore it. Of course, I probably didn't spend as much time talking about it as some other areas that I find to be more relevant.

In the case of the meat industry, I personally, subjectively, do find it a relevant part of the discussion. You don't have to agree with me, and that's totally fine, I'm just sharing my own opinion. If you don't want to talk about that part of it or find it relevant, that's really OK, I accept you.

What Ra said about this type of focus:

Quote:34.9 Questioner: Thank you. Can you give me the same type of information about the self in relation to the societal self?
Ra: I am Ra. The unmanifested self may find its lessons those which develop any of the energy influx centers of the mind/body/spirit complex. The societal and self interactions most often concentrate upon the second and third energy centers. Thus those most active in attempting to remake or alter the society are those working from feelings of being correct personally or of having answers which will put power in a more correct configuration. This may be seen to be of a full travel from negative to positive in orientation. Either will activate these energy ray centers.

There are some few whose desires to aid society are of a green ray nature or above. These entities, however, are few due to the understanding, may we say, of fourth ray that universal love freely given is more to be desired than principalities or even the rearrangement of peoples or political structures

To me, advocating a change to society that we believe will relieve suffering and improve the lives of many, many beings, seems to be a great reason to consider this from a societal angle and work for change constructively..... but that is NOT mutually exclusive to the idea that universal love freely given is also important. Just something to consider -- maybe we are part of the "few" that Ra was referring to?

Maybe not, but food for thought. (No pun intended

This last part is the most relevant for me. I personally believe that universal love freely given IS more desired than principalities or the rearrangement of peoples and political structures. I honestly do believe this. And yet I also see it as appropriate and congruent with my Path for me to follow a vegetarian lifestyle and explain my position here, among my spiritual and intellectual equals. Among my great extended family of Other-Selves at Bring4th.

[quote='3DMonkey' pid='81278' dateline='1334123424']
I never clearly stated this as my viewpoint . I made a mistake to think it was assumed.

Thank you very much for clarifying your views for us. Honestly, I find it extremely helpful when people clarify, and re-clarify their stances on things so that we can more intelligently discuss things without assuming we know what the other means. Assumption leads to disharmony in my experience, thus clear communication is appreciated.

Thank you!



Love to all