In regards to eating meat

[Ankh]

No problem. And thanks to YOU for continuing the dialogue in a respectful and constructive fashion. I think it's more important to understand the other perspective than to agree with it. Agreement is not necessary for peace, but understanding sure helps! Thank you for helping get things back on track... constructively. With honor and respect for all.

This is the kind of issue where people may ultimately have to just agree to disagree. But if we can better understand the opposite perspective, I think our compassion and discernment will grow. That's enough for me.

My dear brother, I agree with you on all points. And thank *you* once again for this dialogue. It is such a pleasure!

Thank you, once again, for expanding my perspective from a more limited state!!

The expanding of limited view is mutual, my brother.

However I see now why it's hard for you to ignore this thread even though you aren't forced to read it. You must be sensing the discord and pain throbbing outward from this thread and it is in a place you love and involving a community you care about. How could I fault you for that?

It is not really what happened, but it has indeed been painful at times, but I am learning that when there is much friction, it is an invaluable fruit that you receive when you found yet another, new dimension to love.

I injected myself into a conversation about another topic that was not of great concern to me when I perceived massive tension and discord recently, so I can hardly throw stones given my pretty glass house

Ah, well, you know what they say about disharmonious places and Wanderers? Light and love go where they are sought and needed, and their direction is not planned aforetimes. =)

LOL @ glass house.

Personally, I consider this to be an important issue worthy of discussion, but I find that it's almost impossible to discuss it in a constructive way as long as there are so many hurt feelings. So of course, when you put it like that, I can absolutely understand why it is hard to ignore, even if you don't particularly want to discuss the topic. For me, though, what I'd like to do is for us all to heal the hurt and get the conversation back on track. Maybe if we can turn this back into a constructive conversation, there won't be all this hurt radiating outward and compelling people to jump in who are not interested. That would truly bring it back to a state of "OPT-IN", voluntary discussion of what is admittedly a volatile issue. There are some people who just the TOPIC upsets, all dynamics with people aside. For them, perhaps this thread is not the best place to spend their time. And yet there are other people, all across the dietary spectrum who very much would like to discuss it here. I honestly think it's better to confine the discussion to one place rather than interrupt other threads across the forum with a sub-conversation about meat eating and vegetarianism. I could be wrong about this -- this is just my subjective, biased opinion. But I feel everyone has the right on this thread to say "I believe my way is the right way". Do you disagree? Am I viewing this too simplistically, perhaps?

Well, how Creator chooses to express itself is up to each. Personally I prefer saying: "This is the best way for me, but each intelligence must seek its own way. What is right for me might be wrong for you. There is no best way."

This thread has been going on for three years though. And I am wondering why without pointing any fingers at any members or groups or sides.

I still believe it is possible for this to be a place to discuss, and even debate the meat / veg question in a mutually respectful fashion. I also believe it's possible for us to agree to disagree on the topic and still love eachother afterwards. Like I said earlier, if we can better understand eachother, our compassion and discernment will grow, and agreement is in no way necessary.

I totally agree with you. I would like to step by sometimes and say something, or ask something. In all other threads there are no problems with that, but it is in this one...

Harmony through differences.

Ah, yes! A building of social memory complex comes into my mind.

What's not perfectly clear to me yet is what is the appropriate approach to take? How can we discuss this topic and reach understanding unless we directly advocate our respective positions? -- no matter what dietary place we are coming from.

I wonder the same, my brother... How can we all express ourselves without so much disharmonious friction?

I really think this part is absolutely key to this whole mess. We all have a biased, subjective point of view about many things, that is a given. In a discussion forum, what is the problem with saying "I believe this way is better, and I believe that for XYZ reasons."? Honestly, is that inappropriate in an of itself? Or do we just have a problem with overall tone and delivery -- ie is the problem one of fundamental approach of advocating our belief in the correctness of our view, or just the tone and way it is phrased?

Maybe better to say that "I believe this way is better for me personally because xyz"? But that generally speaking - there is no best way?

Honestly, Creator should express itself as it deems right, but there will be friction I suppose, when that expression does not take other selves into consideration. What do you think?

For instance, imagine that I would say: "I believe that serving humans above animals is the right way for everybody". I believe that I would be scold for that statement, and it would be right, imho. For I believe that there is already a balance in the creation. When someone with an imbalance in one way claims something, there will be another one with an imbalance in the opposite way to balance that first one. And it will be rocking back and forth, til a mutual understanding of each other's differences and distortions has occured, and respect and love has been found. This is just an idea that I have, which is very difficult to put in words... But Ra said that there are apparent distortions and a total perfection at the same time that exists in each self, and I just took it a bit longer, and think that there are apparent distortions and a total perfection in the whole creation at the same time. It is not for nothing that infinity is said to be intelligent.

Here's my view...

When a person responds with an opposing viewpoint, I also think it's appropriate for an answer to be given. This is direct, and biased. Even if it is extremist -- which is a really subjective term, and can be perceived as hurtful -- is it inappropriate to advocate your perspective in a discussion forum on one thread? I would feel differently if there were 200 threads opened a day on the topic and dozens others hijacked, as we recently saw in something unrelated. But just one? That seems reasonable to me, so long as it is done in a mutually respectful fashion.

But brother, this thread has been disharmonious for three years. Why? I seriously don't want to point fingers at anyone, but to seek an understanding to that why.

I sense that some (not all) of the hurt feelings from meat eaters centers around the fact that some of us believe we are RIGHT. What I don't understand is why this topic of vegetarianism vs meat eating is different than any other topic where we believe our point of view to be correct?

I think that it is completely ok to believe that one is right. Hey, I believe it every time. And in all seriousness, we do believe ourselves to be right when communicating and acting. We don't say or do what is we believe is wrong, as that would be illogical.

I can't speak for all the so called "meat eaters", but from what I have read in this thread, they have been giving plenty hints about what bothers "them".

I mean, I honestly think that the Doors is the best rock band ever.

The Doors ROCK for several reasons!!

And those who do not agree with it, are not my friends!! j/k

As long as I do it respectfully, is it wrong for me to honestly, genuinely believe that anyone who doesn't see the Doors as the greatest rock band ever is wrong? Even though I KNOW that's just my biased, subjective opinion, it really is what I think! Is it wrong for me to say that? Does my belief in my inherent correctness on the Doors make me or you any less the Creator?

I believe that here lies the key, my brother, and you said it: *as long as it is respectful and made in an awareness that it is biased and subjective opinion. That the correctness is personal and no one is a less Creator.*

Do you believe that it has been the spirit in these discussions in this thread though?

I sincerely want to discuss this dietary issue peacefully, and with respect for all parties and viewpoints.

Me too, my brother.

But by definition, in order to argue my case I have to come from the perspective that I'm biased, yes, but I BELIEVE my vegetarian view to be the RIGHT one. Is this not appropriate forum behavior?

In all honesty - do you believe that this vegetarian view is the right one for me? And everybody?

Some of the hurt amongst the vegetarians is because our very right to believe as we do is constantly challenged. It has honestly seemed to me, at times, that some of the critics will not be satisfied unless the vegetarians say "We don't believe meat eating is wrong."

To me, expecting that kind of concession is just as unreasonable as to ask a meat eater to say "We believe being vegetarian is better."

I think it's reasonable here to agree to disagree, not for anyone to set aside their convictions. How do you see it?

I totally agree with you.

One question though: you said that some of the critics would want this, and I perhaps would say that some of the other critics would want that - should we discuss in these terms? I don't know... I would like to find a solution without saying that one side did this and that, and the other one did that and this, as I believe that this is a creation of the whole group. But on the other hand, if that is how it is perceived to the self, that one side actually did this or that, maybe we should discuss it then? What do you think?

Never entered my mind that you would trap me, my brother.

Ankh, thank you for that vote of confidence, as it implies a certain level of trust, that I also feel about you. We don't know eachother very well, but I view you as a person worthy of respect, consideration, and even admiration. I clearly don't agree with you on diet, but this fact is far outweighed by my overall view of you as the Creator and appreciation for your Beingness. I enjoy your warm energy and your thoughtful posts, and this colors my perception of you, but in a good way. I think it helps me to "hear" your side of the argument even though I disagree. You see, you gave me the benefit of the doubt -- and I think that part of the reason for that is that there is mutual respect and an overall harmonious forum relationship with me. Would this have been possible if there was tension between us? Maybe, maybe not, but I think an underpinning of respect goes along way towards more constructive conversations.

I wonder if there would have been less misunderstandings on this thread if there had been better relationships between participants?

I don't know, my brother. But thank you for all your kind and warm words. *It is mutual*. I feel unguarded and relaxed discussing with you. I don't know you either, but it is a harmonious discussion indeed about a volite topic between two individuals holding opposite opinions on the matter. How come it is so harmonious, while others are not?

I can't speak for others, but what I believe that I have observed here is the lack of the respect that has been missing many times in this thread. Do you agree with that observation?

Yes, I do, I have observed the same thing. Though I would make the distinction that I have seen it coming from both meat eaters AND vegetarians, not just one other the other. It pains me, especially because I really enjoy the energy and thought processes of a whole host of people that are divided on this issue. I don't want to judge anybody and reject viewing other people as simply a dietary position.

Totally agree with you.

I also believe that there exists pride many times when vegetarians convey their food choice, and I believe that taking no pride in any of the choices is the right path (for me).

I have seen this pride you speak of from some vegetarians as well. Each person is different, but all I can say is I do not consider myself in any way superior to people who do still eat meat. Seriously, we are total equals.

I am delighted to hear you say that.

However, I am proud of the fact that I made a choice that that I believe does good in this world, especially when that choice comes with some negative social consequences. Does that make me better in ANY way? Of course not! But can you see perhaps why a vegetarian might be proud of making a choice that they believe will truly help?

Absolutely!! And I am very proud of your choice too, my brother! And I even wish to say that a vegetarian who feels the pride of the "wrong" reasons, reasons that makes him to consider him/herself more consciously aware or spiritually more advanced, or more intelligent, or emotionally more evolved, or whatever other reasons - is still a Creator experiencing itself. So who am I to not let the Creator experience the feelings of pride for instance?

But sometimes it is perhaps done at the expense of another self. What to do then?

I'm still talking myself into going to Homecoming this year, but who knows.

Ah, it would be a true honor to meet you!! And I saw what you've said in regards to vegetarian foods, and I believe that there was a vegetarian alternative at the Homecoming last year, and that the restaurants where we went had these alternatives as well. But if you send Gary a PM or an email, he will perhaps give you a more accurate information. And *if* there will be a problem, I promise you here and now, that I will personally call a cab for us to take you to the supermarket where we can buy your veggie foodstuff. =)

Well thank you for educating us on this Swedish term!! It sounds better than both Organic and Biological if it really does come with the animal treatment regulations that you described. This is exactly why it is so helpful to have so many different voices.

Here is an excerpt from our National Food Agency regarding ecological foodstuff:

What makes ecological food different from conventionally produced?

... ... ...

It is also important that the animals live outdoors and have an outlet for their natural behavior.

... ... ...

Did you see it as an "in your face/throat" technique?

Yes, I did. I felt like it was the equivalent of an evangelist pounding on my door and shouting at me and my neighbors that they must follow the one true way and see the "folly" of their ways for any who disagreed. I also felt it to be ironic to hear someone claim advanced development while simultaneously demonstrating a lower level of development by that very "in your face" behavior. It did not seem respectful especially because the information was not requested.

But one major difference was this person was posting up on average a dozen threads per day about this topic and was interrupting other conversations. Here it is confined to one single thread.

To me, this thread is not like the PETA billboards where people are forced to constantly see the views of others and have it in your face.

Here in this thread, I don't really see the vegetarians using what I would call "in your face" tactics, and in fact is partly why I wanted to clarify with you earlier about the billboards. I do see a difference in the context -- the setting -- of where this conversation is taking place. One thread, clearly marked. It's just that the emotional discord has started overshadowing the actual topic and I think people are reacting more to subjective inner feelings than what is actually being said.

I also think that the information is requested by participation here. When we voluntarily join a discussion in a clearly marked topic with eachother that interests us, I believe the very fact that it is done in a discussion forum invites Other-selves to share their perspective.

Hmm... Maybe you are right...

If we put aside PETA billboards, and just compare this thread to what you said about "in your face" technique, which was: "I felt like it was the equivalent of an evangelist pounding on my door and shouting at me and my neighbors that they must follow the one true way and see the "folly" of their ways for any who disagreed. I also felt it to be ironic to hear someone claim advanced development while simultaneously demonstrating a lower level of development by that very "in your face" behavior. It did not seem respectful especially because the information was not requested" - then I don't know about that... I will think about it, and will see if there are such techniques used in the future. As for now and what has been, let's bury that in the past where it belongs then.

I want to thank you for taking the time to explain yourself and your perspective. In these last posts I have really appreciated your openness and willingness to find some common ground and mutual understanding.

It's moments like these that give me hope it is possible to disagree and yet still have harmony and mutual respect.

And thank you, my brother. It is an *honor*.

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Then you have perceived incorrectly, for it wasn't my intention to 'attack' you in any way!! It was simply an honest question.

It was my subjective experience. It can never be incorrect.

One's subjective experiences can't be incorrect, true, but one's conclusions about another person's intention can indeed be incorrect.

For something to be classified as an attack, there must be the intention to attack.

I had no such intention. Therefore, your perception was simply wrong.

How do I know this? Because I know what my intention was. You do not.

If I say, "Ankh, I perceive you as thinking I am stupid" and you aren't really thinking that, then I am wrong in my perception.

I wasn't talking about your intention, but about my subjective experience. Thank you for clarification of your intention.

Then how can you be so sure that you have detected disrespect in someone tone? since you have only their written words... Is it possible you were simply wrong in your perception of their tone?

Oh, I am sure that I have been wrong many times! My perception is fallible, and I am not even speaking of 3D and the veil in place.

However, I regard this thread to be probably one of the most disharmonious in this forum, and there has been disrespectful tone displayed here, many times. BOTH from one the so called side, and another one the so called side. This is what happens when there exists separation, in my understanding.

Since you agree that your perception of tone might be faulty, do you think it's possible that, sometimes, what may have seemed like disrespect, was just disagreement on the view itself? That maybe sometimes people got offended, not because the person was disrespectful, but because they simply didn't like the viewpoint expressed?

Oh, surely! As I said, I probably made and make lots of mistakes. Just hopefully not all the time.

I would rather say that serving another self is more important that my own personal convictions

Then you have a personal conviction about serving other-selves.

I wouldn't phrase it so. But if you would, it is up to you.

What if, when you serve an other-self, it seems to make another other-self upset? How would you reconcile that?

It would depend on situation, circumstances, what has been done, what to do etc. It is impossible to say in general.

You can disagree with my views all you want, but you made a direct assessment of me personally, not once but a few times. Not cool.

Since you said that I made a direct assessment of you personally, a few times even, I would like to know where you see it in my posts. Thank you.