(04-06-2012, 09:50 PM)Pablísimo Wrote: However, he clearly feels some hurt and insult, and we bear some responsibility for that as well as him.
Is the reverse also true?
I felt hurt and insult too. I feel unaccepted for who I am, and I feel judged for having strong convictions.
(04-06-2012, 09:50 PM)Pablísimo Wrote: I'm asking you to help me see the Creator in everyone who has ever posted in this thread.
Done! You asked me this. Will the others be asked this as well?
I am saddened that who I am - a person with convictions - has somehow caused others to feel uncomfortable. I am sorry for the times when I felt exhausted from staying in this intense thread for 3 years, sometimes with little or no support from other vegetarians, and allowed my exhaustion to cloud my judgment. I am also sorry for the times when I felt frustrated at being repeatedly misunderstood and misrepresented, and allowed my frustration to affect the tone of my words. I am also sorry for allowing my sense of urgency about helping save our younger brethren from daily torture, to affect my interactions with my other brethren, who are unconsciously contributing to that torture. I am sorry for being confused as to why they have reacted with such resistance to something that seems very obvious to me and the other vegetarians. I am also sorry for allowing myself to feel hurt, judged, ridiculed, and ganged up on. I am sorry for then allowing that hurt to develop into judgment of others; I didn't feel judgment towards them for eating meat, but I did feel judgment towards them for their non-acceptance of my convictions. I am sorry for not accepting non-acceptance.
I am sorry for all these things.
I'm not sorry for being who I am. I'm not sorry for having strong convictions and being passionate about them. I'm sorry for any words spoken unkindly, but I'm not sorry that my words, when spoken kindly, still caused feelings of guilt to arise in some people, because I am not responsible for that. I'm not sorry for passionately sharing my views on this topic, in a thread devoted to this topic.
I accept those who eat meat on a daily basis. I am saddened that, apparently, many meat-eaters in this community are unable to accept me and the other vegetarians. They are unable to accept that we have strong convictions. With the exception of only a couple of them, none were able to say that this discussion had fostered greater understanding and compassion for vegetarians, despite the vegetarians sharing their increased compassion and understanding for them. This has bothered me. I didn't feel judgment towards them eating meat, but I did feel judgment towards their unwillingness or inability to accept the vegetarians. That is still judgment, nonetheless. For this, I am sorry.
I see the Creator in all our brothers and sisters, including our younger brothers and sisters - the animals - and including those who kill our younger brothers and sisters, or who allow someone else to kill them so they can eat them. I don't like this, but I do see the Creator in them, nonetheless. I am sorry for not always expressing this. I do see the Creator in all of them, regardless of what they do, and regardless of whether they see the Creator in the younger brothers and sisters who end up on their dining room table.
I realize that our difference lies largely in the fact that my 3D brothers and sisters disagree with me that 2D entities are brothers and sisters too, and thus it's difficult for them to have compassion for those 2D entities, and it's also difficult for them to have compassion for me when I try to save the 2D entities from torture and death. I hope to have more compassion for those who, in my biased judgement, struggle with compassion, by remembering this fact.
(04-06-2012, 09:50 PM)Pablísimo Wrote: @Everyone
We are One. We are all Brothers & Sisters
Yes, and that includes the cows, pigs, chickens, turkeys and deer. They are our brothers and sisters too. They're just younger.
(04-06-2012, 09:50 PM)Pablísimo Wrote: In forgiveness lies the stoppage of the wheel of karma.
In order to forgive, we must first accept.
(04-08-2012, 03:54 AM)Ankh Wrote: Pablisímo, thank you, my brother, for your reply. Although I don't agree on some points with you, I believe that I understand them now. I understand where you are coming from, and with your explanations I was able to understand others of similar opinions.
Ankh, I am thrilled that our dear brother Pablisimo was able to convey these ideas in a way that fostered understanding, where I failed in that same effort. Wonderful!
(04-08-2012, 03:54 AM)Ankh Wrote: I have difficulties with an approach that is of an "extremist" point of view, or as you put it, "VERY direct and biased".
Can you define extremist?
A co-worker once told me I was extremist because I didn't eat meat or candy.
Do you think someone who believes passionately that animals are our younger brothers and sisters, and tries to save them from being tortured and killed, is an extremist?
(04-08-2012, 03:54 AM)Ankh Wrote: I think now that I understand where it is coming from. However, I am still uneased when one "side" uses disrespectful tone when speaking to the "other" side, and pressing their opinions on them.
Would you agree that tone is something that is very difficult to assess, when we have only typed words on a computer screen, and lack being able to see facial expressions or hear the tone of voice?
Would you agree that we all sometimes misperceive tone, because of our own preconceived ideas, biases, and distortions?
(04-08-2012, 03:54 AM)Ankh Wrote: I don't buy the arguments like: if you don't like it here, no one is forcing you to be a member of this forum, it is optional. Or - it is optional to read this thread, so don't do it if you don't like it. Are we not one? Why then create this separation,
I am one of those who has stated that anyone not interested in this topic can easily just avoid the topic. This forum has hundreds of threads. Most of us don't read many of them.
What do you think is actually causing the separation?
How can the vegetarians be true to their convictions? Apparently, the only way *some* of the meat-eaters will accept the vegetarians, is if the vegetarians give up their convictions!
Is this what you would like to see happen, in order to restore harmony? Must we give up our convictions, Ankh? We've tried being 'nice' and that didn't work. No matter how 'nicely' our views were expressed, meat-eaters were still offended, not by how we said it, but by what we said. Must we censor ourselves? Or is there any other solution?
And lastly, I'm sorry in advance, if the baring of my soul, my honesty and my convictions, are construed as 'unkind.' They were not intended that way. If anyone is able to offer a solution to this conundrum, I would love to hear it.
I don't claim to be free of frustration and hurt. I am working on those things so I welcome your love and compassion, if you can find it in your heart to extend them to a passionate vegetarian with strong convictions.
I ask for compassion from those who, whether meat-eater or not, view us as fanatical zealots, even when we do nothing more than ask the waiter what vegetarian dishes they offer. I ask for compassion because those of you who don't view cows and chickens as other-selves have no idea how horrible it is, to hear their cries, to see their bloody carcasses in shopping carts and in kitchens, and on the plate of our friend while we must smile sweetly and pretend we didn't notice, and suppress our true selves, for fear of causing discomfort or being labeled a zealot, and suppress our natural desire to be of service to our younger other-selves, in order to get along with our human other-selves...all the while dealing with our own conflicted feelings of being unable to answer the cries of anguish that we want so much to answer.
We wonder whether we've done 'enough' for them, whether we could have spoken up more, and we chastise ourselves for letting what others think of us be more important than those we are called to help. We sometimes lie awake at night, hearing their cries, while struggling with our own guilt - the guilt of not having done enough...the guilt of of selfishly caring more about our popularity with other humans then we do about the suffering of our other-selves...the guilt of selfishly keeping our mouths shut, rather than being willing to endure ridicule. We're no saints. We often selfishly put ourselves first; we avoid speaking up not always because of love and consideration of our meat-eating friends, but sometimes because we want to avoid the backlash of animosity that will be directed at us if we speak up. I am sorry for the many times I have been selfish, and faltered in those convictions I claim to have. It's shameful to admit how many times I have thought of myself, and wished only to avoid the very conflict so prevalent on this thread. In real life, it's much harder.
It is horrible for us, and I despair of being unable to convey to you how horrible it is, without stirring up discomfort in you. I don't wish to cause discomfort. I wish only to answer the cries for help, and despair that I'm unable to do so, without alienating you.
I understand that, for whatever reason, you are unable to grasp the reality of their pain, and the reality of the pain of those who feel that pain. Please know that we do feel that pain very acutely, and this is what drives us. Please, even if you cannot understand it, perhaps you can have compassion for us in that respect.
I understand that many of you are unable to feel the pain of the animals. But would it be possible for you to feel our pain, and have compassion for us? For, we are in pain. Mental and emotional pain, on behalf of our younger other-selves. And then when we try to do something about it, we inadvertently cause pain to our human other-selves. Can you have compassion for our dilemma?
I'm not using graphic terminology to upset you. I'm beseeching you to please have compassion for us, because that is how we view what you might see as 'delicious food.' It isn't delicious food to us; it's the body of an other-self.
I realize you don't see it that way. Can you possibly have compassion for what it's like for those of us who do?
In the meantime, I am grateful to Pablisimo, who is able to build bridges where I was not. Carry the torch, my brother. May it illuminate your way and the ways of others, in peace, but not at the expense of truth, understanding and acceptance.
Peace without understanding and acceptance is easy to accomplish.
Peace with full understanding and acceptance, not so easy.