In regards to eating meat

[Monica]

I responded to this.

I also watched the slaughterhouse video.

But for some reason the people in this thread tend to lump me in on the "vegetarian team" because 3 years ago I made a few posts in the first three pages of this thread, which then turned into 113 pages, all of which did not include me.

Oh, I can see how it might have seemed that way! I apologize for seeming to misrepresent you.

But see, I'm not dividing people into "veg vs meat-eater" so the very concept of "veg team" doesn't work for me. I never thought of you as being "on the veg team" but I can see how it might have seemed that way.

If there are any 'sides' I see them as being "those wishing to discuss" vs "those preferring to deny and ignore the discussion in favor of lashing out"

I knew that you are now eating meat, but you made it very clear that you are fully aware of the meat industry. I saw no reason for you to watch the video again, since you are already aware and making a fully conscious choice. I respect that!

This confirms my point: Someone who didn't need to watch it (you) watched it, while those who continue to claim eating animals is no big deal, apparently aren't willing to fully face the impact of their choice.

That's fine. They have that freedom. But for them to then intentionally and voluntarily enter into a discussion about that very topic, while being unwilling to fully face the reality of the topic, and then complain when others do face it, seems contradictory to me.

So, when I said "did any of the meat-eaters watch it" I didn't mean those who eat meat. I meant those who eat meat but think it's no big deal, and are unwilling to face the reality of their choice. Even that is still fine, but when those same people come into the discussion complaining about those who do wish to confront the whole issue, that is what's causing the 'separation' in my opinion.

In other words, if they don't want to become aware of the plight of animals, fine. But I don't understand why they would even bother to join the discussion, if all they're going to do is complain about those who do care about animals.

But now we are teetering on the edge of what I DO consider judgement. I just wanted to explain why it may have seemed like I lumped you in with the vegetarians.

Honestly, contrary to what has been claimed, I truly don't think of people in terms of 'vegetarian' or 'not veg.'

If anything, I think in terms of "willing to discuss openly and honestly, while being fully conscious of their choices" vs "just lashing out defensively."

I realize that's still labeling and categorizing people.

I'm having to deal with my own feelings of disappointment, when others don't accept that the vegetarians are doing what we believe in. Others cannot accept our convictions. They don't have to agree with us, but it bothers me that we're being blamed for having convictions.

So I am working on clearing/healing my own feelings of non-acceptance of non-acceptance.

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But this has happened before though: on page 94 I answered to a post made by Oldern, quoting him, post #1875. You chose to reply to that post too

This is the 2nd time someone has brought up me responding to some post that was a response to someone else. Sheeeeeesh this happens all the time in discussions! There's no rule against that.

I wish that I could be of that service to you as well. Maybe if you are patient with me, I will be too, in time. Believe me, Monica, I am trying. Very, very hard. Again, this work has nothing to do with you personally, but with *me*.

Maybe you are taking on a burden that you don't need to take on. I have no expectations of any kind of service from you! May I suggest releasing that burden?

I am not butthurt, Monica.

Ankh, did you miss the part where I said that wasn't directed at you personally? I think I said it twice in that single post. I wanted to make sure you knew that I didn't expect any response from you, since you said you didn't want to discuss it any more. I also said that my new comments weren't for you, but for anyone who might wish to continue.

But I am struggling with my own lessons. I am sorry if I unintentionally hurted you, and that I am not able to be of service to you, for the moment.

We all are. And I too apologize to you, and anyone else whom I have inadertently caused hurt.

This is a volatile topic. This means people get emotionally charged very easily. This is why I keep trying to keep the conversation intellectual and impersonal, but my efforts have failed miserably. It seems that no matter what I say, and no matter what the other vegetarians say, and even no matter what one of the meat-eaters, yosssarian, says, many here keep insisting on making this personal.

Hey, I got it!!! :idea:

Maybe what we need to do is make one of those automatic responder thingys like Ra has. That way we can remove ourselves from the equation. Hmmm....

The reason to why I see a separation is because of statements like below:

Ankh, that's not fair. You speak as though I said those things out of the blue. You are ignoring the fact that I said that, only in response to repeated cries of "elitism! separation!"

Furthermore, those comments were a desperate attempt by me to stop the pattern of separation.

Someone says "we have a problem! YOU are doing xyz!" not once but repeatedly. Then there is a loud chorus: "you are doing xyz!"

Then we say "we're not doing xyz because..."

Then I'm told "you ARE saying you're doing xyz! here's proof: you just mentioned xyz!"

What I personally read (subjectively, and that is not meant in an objective kind of way) is: we=vegetarians accept this and that, so do not judge *us*; and you=meat-eaters did this and that... In short, I see "us" vs. "them" dynamic.

In this respect only, yes. We vegetarians DO accept meat-eaters!!! As proof, we all deal with meat-eaters on a daily basis! We have had to accept them, or we couldn't still love our families and friends who eat meat.

Please note that this is not an attitude of superiority in any way! We all fall short in many ways.

But in this particular instance, when speaking of acceptance only, yes, I do think more non-acceptance is coming from some of the meat-eaters. The vegetarians aren't being accepted because of our strong convictions. We aren't being allowed to have strong convictions. When we express our convictions, even when we keep it philosophical, we are being accused of being "judgmental and elitist" just for having those convictions.

That's non-acceptance, no matter how you slice it.

We can't be accused of the same thing, because we accept meat-eaters every time we step outside of our homes and see the McDonald's billboards...every time we go to the grocery store...every time we go to a restaurant...every time we have Thanksgiving dinner with our families...maybe even every day inside our homes, if our family members eat meat.

We cannot be accused of not accepting meat-eaters.

Then you say that Austin and yossarian is on our (=vegetarians) side, no other of *them* (=meat-eaters).

No, no! You are still thinking in terms of "veg vs meat-eater"! I never said Austin and yossarian were on the "veg" side! Gosh, that would be totally unfair to them!

I said Austin was "on the same team" meaning that he is doing his part to change the awful factory farming industry. I know full well he isn't a vegetarian and even slaughters animals. How could I possibly put him on the "vegetarian" team? I don't, because I don't even think in terms of a "vegetarian" team at all!

I think only in terms of all of us doing what we can, to change the horror that is going on, on a daily basis. I have immense respect for Austin, and yossarian too. See? I can respect them even if they eat meat! Please, please, see that this idea of "us vs them" and dividing us into "veg vs meat-eater" is not coming from me or the other vegetarians!

I am glad that they are able to bridge this separation for you, and be of service to you.

I think it's because they have their eyes fully open, and they are able to accept the reality, and they are also able to accept others with different views, with the understanding that we all are aware of the horror and dealing with it in whatever way we can. They aren't drawing lines in the sand with some arbitrary categorization. They aren't screaming "elitist" when they see others expressing their own convictions.

They aren't judging anyone, but accepting.

One doesn't have to let go of their convictions, in order to accept. I have felt throughout the entire thread, that the only way *some* of the meat-eaters will accept the vegetarians, is if we let go of our convictions.

Peace, love and light to you. I mean it.

Peace, love and light to you too! And I mean it also!

Note: If anyone wishes to continue the discussion, please don't address me personally, so that I won't feel compelled to respond. I am trying to extricate myself from this discussion.