07-10-2011, 01:33 AM
(This post was last modified: 07-15-2011, 02:23 PM by Tenet Nosce.)
I'm sorry, this is going to be a totally sideways move, but by some "coincidence" I just watched an episode of Family Ties on Netflix in which the character roles almost exactly mimic some of the personality dynamics in this thread. Just a little bizarre, that's all. :exclamation:
Bring4th_Monica, all I can say is that it seems you and I have some strange Hall of Mirrors thing going on here. It appeared to me that you mistakenly felt that my original post was aimed at you, as I said it was not. You and I were apparently typing our posts out simultaneously, and somehow something that I said struck a chord within you somewhere. But I wasn't even writing toward you. Looking back, I can see how it might have looked that way, but it was not at all the case.
Your post went up at 12:07, Pickle's at 1:07, mine at 1:26. I had been composing it the entire time. The only person's view I refer to in the post is yossarian's. You, my dear, felt compelled to stand up and defend yossarian's view, and I concluded that you must feel that his view is an extension of your own. That's how we got embroiled in this kind of non-argument, where apparently we don't actually disagree at all. So it really does appear to me that you took something personal and kind of came at me. I can acknowledge that it may appear the exact opposite way to you, but that doesn't mean I will agree with you.
My posting here is almost entirely a reaction to yossarian's claim about the BEST diet that I believe would actually make some of my patients' conditions worse. I attempted to speak about it in a way that didn't divulge any details of my personal or professional life, but I did not seem able to communicate what I was trying to say, as evidenced by your repeated declaration that you had no idea where I was coming from. So I tried to bring in a personal, medically-related angle to illustrate some of the more subtle complexities of considering whether or not a particular belief about meat-eating is "STS" or "STO".
I believe that eating large amounts of fruit would make many people's conditions considerably more severe, so I get a little angry when somebody is telling others what to do with their health when they clearly don't know what they're talking about, and are blinded by absolutism and zealotry. Because veganism has killed people, and for better or for worse, there are people out there looking to this very thread for guidance on what and how to eat. You can't wax philosophical about dietary choices without making it practical. Eating is about as practical as it gets. So if one's philosophical principles of ethics are under threat of breaking down the moment they eat a snack, well, then maybe there is something wrong with their principles, and not the snack.
So I guess it's just a matter of who feels the need to protect what. Just like PFC JoeBob who feels duty bound to leave his family to protect the Afghani village. I suppose we all have a little Savior in us.
You say what about the animals? I say what about the animals? You and I are humans debating about human behavior. We have no clue what the animals are "thinking". Are you kidding me? I can't figure out what most humans are thinking. I don't know- I suppose the Universe has something totally unpredictable in store for us and them. I didn't set up the game such that some animals eat other animals, some animals won't eat humans (your cat, by the way, probably would
), most humans eat animals, but most humans do not eat other humans. There just seems to be a natural delineation there in the way the Divine Logos created the rules to physical life, and I don't see any reason to make it wrong or "unspiritual". I'm trusting that it is all working just fine, as intended, and does not require intervention on my part. War, on the other hand, is not a rule of physical life, although some might make it out to be.
I love my two cats, and I share my meat with them. That's "STO" enough for me. I think I know where my "harvestability" and "polarity" lie, so therefore anything I am doing must be sufficient enough to make the grade. Beyond that, I am not so sure. I will remain agnostic until my perception affords me the ability to accurately discern.
Look, I care about the animals and the rainforest and the ecosystem. But the way humanity deals with these things is a reflection of how we deal with ourselves, and not the other way around. If I were to hunt a deer, and consume its raw bleeding flesh ripe with fear from the chase, it would still be food for my body. I would not be too concerned about the spiritual residue of fear, if it exists, because if it exists, then I can easily overcome it with my own vibration of love and gratitude. Maybe that is my "purpose". :idea:
What I -do- know is that when a lion takes down a gazelle, they will eat the organ meats first, and leave the muscle tissue for the scavengers. I take this to be a cue that the lion instinctively knows where the nutrients are, and goes for that. Most people find the organ meats to be the most repulsive part of the animal, and eat only muscle tissue. (Charred to Kingdom Come, I might add. Hmm.. now where did that behavior originate?) Many humans believe that pizza is nutritious because it contains "All Four Food Groups". Some humans apparently think that their belief in nutritious pizza will magically "make it so" because they "create their own reality".
So where do we go from here, in midsummer '11?
As for philosophical dispositions toward life, to each their own. Personally, what I've found is that when I try to strive for some unattainable ideal, it just makes me feel inadequate and out of control. I know that no matter what I do, I will never be good enough. This is why I believe people feel they need gurus and saviors. To fill that artificial gap between themselves and the ideal they have chosen to uphold. Their belief system requires a mystical being to "intercede" on their behalf in order to account for their inherent inability to live up to the ideal. And this does make us hypocrites because that's how Universe works. It shows us that we are not just one thing, but all things.
I am not pointing fingers at hypocrites . I do believe there is a way to move forward in all areas of life that does not require us to take up a personal cause and have a light-saber fight, and then have to defend ourselves against the inevitable claims of hypocrisy. Several times you have referred to my comments in another thread about war and drawing a comparison of your chosen cause to my chosen cause. War is not my chosen cause. I do not have a chosen cause. I feel confident in my ability to choose for myself a purpose in a moment as it is given. All I tried to offer in that thread was that plotting war might have been part of the reason Ra mentioned that Patton was not harvestable.
All I did was try to make a simple comment when somebody else swooped in with their Project Bluebeam Kit, and I argued back loudly. As I am somewhat prone to do when somebody is attempting to project their personal hell onto my otherwise peaceful life. Military my ass.
You jumped in, cheering me all the way. Which was very nice, but I didn't ask for any defense. I came over to this thread. Read the first two posts. Basically said I think yossarian is full of it and here is why, and you rushed in like the White Knight to defend his honor. Ohhhkay then.
Sorry I derailed your thread, it wasn't intentional.
Oh, and cats definitely are meat eaters. Folks, please don't try to make a vegan out of your best feline friend, their precious little animal soul will be just fine. Trust me. I would actually consider forcing a vegan diet on a cat to BE an act of animal cruelty.
Bring4th_Monica, all I can say is that it seems you and I have some strange Hall of Mirrors thing going on here. It appeared to me that you mistakenly felt that my original post was aimed at you, as I said it was not. You and I were apparently typing our posts out simultaneously, and somehow something that I said struck a chord within you somewhere. But I wasn't even writing toward you. Looking back, I can see how it might have looked that way, but it was not at all the case.
Your post went up at 12:07, Pickle's at 1:07, mine at 1:26. I had been composing it the entire time. The only person's view I refer to in the post is yossarian's. You, my dear, felt compelled to stand up and defend yossarian's view, and I concluded that you must feel that his view is an extension of your own. That's how we got embroiled in this kind of non-argument, where apparently we don't actually disagree at all. So it really does appear to me that you took something personal and kind of came at me. I can acknowledge that it may appear the exact opposite way to you, but that doesn't mean I will agree with you.
My posting here is almost entirely a reaction to yossarian's claim about the BEST diet that I believe would actually make some of my patients' conditions worse. I attempted to speak about it in a way that didn't divulge any details of my personal or professional life, but I did not seem able to communicate what I was trying to say, as evidenced by your repeated declaration that you had no idea where I was coming from. So I tried to bring in a personal, medically-related angle to illustrate some of the more subtle complexities of considering whether or not a particular belief about meat-eating is "STS" or "STO".
I believe that eating large amounts of fruit would make many people's conditions considerably more severe, so I get a little angry when somebody is telling others what to do with their health when they clearly don't know what they're talking about, and are blinded by absolutism and zealotry. Because veganism has killed people, and for better or for worse, there are people out there looking to this very thread for guidance on what and how to eat. You can't wax philosophical about dietary choices without making it practical. Eating is about as practical as it gets. So if one's philosophical principles of ethics are under threat of breaking down the moment they eat a snack, well, then maybe there is something wrong with their principles, and not the snack.
So I guess it's just a matter of who feels the need to protect what. Just like PFC JoeBob who feels duty bound to leave his family to protect the Afghani village. I suppose we all have a little Savior in us.
You say what about the animals? I say what about the animals? You and I are humans debating about human behavior. We have no clue what the animals are "thinking". Are you kidding me? I can't figure out what most humans are thinking. I don't know- I suppose the Universe has something totally unpredictable in store for us and them. I didn't set up the game such that some animals eat other animals, some animals won't eat humans (your cat, by the way, probably would
), most humans eat animals, but most humans do not eat other humans. There just seems to be a natural delineation there in the way the Divine Logos created the rules to physical life, and I don't see any reason to make it wrong or "unspiritual". I'm trusting that it is all working just fine, as intended, and does not require intervention on my part. War, on the other hand, is not a rule of physical life, although some might make it out to be.I love my two cats, and I share my meat with them. That's "STO" enough for me. I think I know where my "harvestability" and "polarity" lie, so therefore anything I am doing must be sufficient enough to make the grade. Beyond that, I am not so sure. I will remain agnostic until my perception affords me the ability to accurately discern.
Look, I care about the animals and the rainforest and the ecosystem. But the way humanity deals with these things is a reflection of how we deal with ourselves, and not the other way around. If I were to hunt a deer, and consume its raw bleeding flesh ripe with fear from the chase, it would still be food for my body. I would not be too concerned about the spiritual residue of fear, if it exists, because if it exists, then I can easily overcome it with my own vibration of love and gratitude. Maybe that is my "purpose". :idea:
What I -do- know is that when a lion takes down a gazelle, they will eat the organ meats first, and leave the muscle tissue for the scavengers. I take this to be a cue that the lion instinctively knows where the nutrients are, and goes for that. Most people find the organ meats to be the most repulsive part of the animal, and eat only muscle tissue. (Charred to Kingdom Come, I might add. Hmm.. now where did that behavior originate?) Many humans believe that pizza is nutritious because it contains "All Four Food Groups". Some humans apparently think that their belief in nutritious pizza will magically "make it so" because they "create their own reality".
So where do we go from here, in midsummer '11?As for philosophical dispositions toward life, to each their own. Personally, what I've found is that when I try to strive for some unattainable ideal, it just makes me feel inadequate and out of control. I know that no matter what I do, I will never be good enough. This is why I believe people feel they need gurus and saviors. To fill that artificial gap between themselves and the ideal they have chosen to uphold. Their belief system requires a mystical being to "intercede" on their behalf in order to account for their inherent inability to live up to the ideal. And this does make us hypocrites because that's how Universe works. It shows us that we are not just one thing, but all things.
I am not pointing fingers at hypocrites . I do believe there is a way to move forward in all areas of life that does not require us to take up a personal cause and have a light-saber fight, and then have to defend ourselves against the inevitable claims of hypocrisy. Several times you have referred to my comments in another thread about war and drawing a comparison of your chosen cause to my chosen cause. War is not my chosen cause. I do not have a chosen cause. I feel confident in my ability to choose for myself a purpose in a moment as it is given. All I tried to offer in that thread was that plotting war might have been part of the reason Ra mentioned that Patton was not harvestable.
All I did was try to make a simple comment when somebody else swooped in with their Project Bluebeam Kit, and I argued back loudly. As I am somewhat prone to do when somebody is attempting to project their personal hell onto my otherwise peaceful life. Military my ass.
You jumped in, cheering me all the way. Which was very nice, but I didn't ask for any defense. I came over to this thread. Read the first two posts. Basically said I think yossarian is full of it and here is why, and you rushed in like the White Knight to defend his honor. Ohhhkay then.
Sorry I derailed your thread, it wasn't intentional.
Oh, and cats definitely are meat eaters. Folks, please don't try to make a vegan out of your best feline friend, their precious little animal soul will be just fine. Trust me. I would actually consider forcing a vegan diet on a cat to BE an act of animal cruelty.