In regards to eating meat

[Bring4th_Austin]

Being a 2D being, it is a mind/body complex. Both are mind/body complexes. If it had achieved mind/body/spirit complex before incarnation, it would not be incarnating 2D.

I believe you are mistaken here. That is like saying that if a human had achieved green ray activation (love/compassion) then it would not be incarnating 3D, but would instantly go straight to 4D.

If a human achieves harvestability, does it still incarnate?

That's not how it works. It's a process. There are sub-densities. Green ray activation and its corresponding features (love/compassion/forgiveness etc.) develop over many incarnations.

Likewise, a late 2D entity's self-awareness develops over many incarnations. Once the process has started, it no longer returns to the group soul, but begins its own individual path, so that it can further develop is self-awareness, until it has reached the threshold in which it is able to graduate to 3D.

Where is this threshold defined? The threshold to me seems like self-awareness.

18.18 Questioner: Can you tell me Yahweh’s purpose in making the genetic sexual changes?
Ra: I am Ra. The purpose 75,000 years ago, as you measure time, was of one purpose only: that to express in the mind/body complex those characteristics which would lead to further and more speedy development of the spiritual complex

And now re-read the following quote, with the previous quote in mind:

20.3 Questioner: So more and more second-density entities are making it into third density. Can you give me an example of a second-density entity coming into the third density in the recent past?
Ra: I am Ra. Perhaps the most common occurrence of second-density graduation during third-density cycle is the so-called pet.

For the animal which is exposed to the individualizing influences of the bond between animal and third-density entity, this individuation causes a sharp rise in the potential of the second density entity so that upon the cessation of physical complex the mind/body complex does not return into the undifferentiated consciousness of that species, if you will

Notice that Ra doesn't use the word entity to describe 2D. The word animal is used instead.

But we know that animals aren't the only 2D beings striving to progress. Also, Ra is describing pets specifically, not every 2D being striving for 3D. Above that, Ra doesn't say the entity continues on before it reaches 3D. Ra might not go beyond answering questions, but it would be very unlike Ra to not completely answer a question. And so, if it had more 2D to experience after it separated from the undifferentiated consciousness of that species, I strongly feel they would have said so.

Also, you seem to be missing a key part of this statement. The pet, AFTER experiencing individuation as a result of investment, doesn't RETURN to the group consciousness. This means that BEFORE that incarnation, it came FROM the group consciousness. Otherwise, how could it return? Why would it return? If it had separated from group consciousness long before its current incarnation, why would Ra mention RETURNING to group consciousness? What happens if this pet doesn't achieve individuation? It RETURNS to group consciousness.


And I interpret the Yahweh quote as referring to the spirit complexes already in place, because Ra is talking about 3D humans.

A single exposure to the individualizing influence won't instantly catapult a 2D entity into 3D.

Says who? It spends 2D working towards individuation, once it achieves it...why stay in 2D?

What is an influence? An influence just gets the process started. But it's still a process. The influence of the human on his pet causes a sharp rise in the potential of the 2D entity. What is potential? This means the 2D entity now has activated more potential, to gain more value out of continued 2D incarnations. But whether it happens in a single lifetime or many, doesn't matter. It's a process that was initiated by the influence of the 3D entity on his pet. It logically follows that the 3D entity will continue to influence the pet, possibly over multiple incarnations, just as 3D entities influence other 3D entities in the development of 4D qualities, until they are ready to graduate to 4D. A threshold must be crossed, which may take time (and experiences) to reach.

That is your interpretation of Ra's usage of the word potential. It could mean many other things, including the potential to incarnate into 3D.

30.5 Questioner: I would like to know how the mind/body/spirit complexes originate, going as far back as necessary. How does the origination occur? Do they originate by spirit forming mind and mind forming body? Can you tell me this?
Ra: I am Ra. We ask you to consider that you are attempting to trace evolution. This evolution is as we have previously described, the consciousness being first, in first density, without movement, a random thing. Whether you may call this mind or body complex is a semantic problem. We call it mind/body complex recognizing always that in the simplest iota of this complex exists in its entirety the One Infinite Creator; this mind/body complex then in second density discovering the growing and turning towards the light, thus awakening what you may call the spirit complex, that which intensifies the upward spiraling towards the love and light of the Infinite Creator.

It's a process.

But once the process is achieved, why continue? And also, why don't you feel plants are also experiencing this process?

Yes, a tuft of grass will strive for life outside of other tufts of grass. Plant it separate from any other tuft of grass and it will still strive for life.

So will a single strand of grass, as long as it has a bit of root. A tuft might be composed of multiple strands. My point is that your separation of the grass into x number of entities is completely arbitrary.

This is a pointless topic, but if you read what I said at first, the tuft is connected. The roots and blades of grass all are connected, to a point. In your lawn, they may get tangled. You might pull out some blades of grass and some roots. But they all belonged to a specific tuft, lost in the tangle of your yard.

But beside the point, if you can't see the grass separation, let's talk about a plant you actually murder. A carrot is obviously separate from a carrot. It's not connected to other carrots in the physical.

It's weird to me that it isn't obvious to you that a carrot will strive for life outside of other carrots. Kill one carrot next to another carrot, the other carrot strives for life.

You are referring to only the physical body of the carrot. I am referring to its consciousness.

I still don't believe a carrot does not leave the group consciousness and then return upon death. That is your opinion.

This too is obvious to me. I can't really grasp your concept that a carrot is not separate from another carrot. They're both different physical body complexes, not the same. You kill one, it has no effect on the other. Again, I don't know what to say if you don't perceive them as different body complexes.

I never said they weren't different body complexes.

They obviously are. But that doesn't make them different entities. You are equating the body complex with entity.

As I said in my last post, bacteria and even bees and ants have separate bodies, but there is much evidence to suggest that they are actually a single organism. Ask any beekeeper or read some beekeeping books. Research the behavior of bacteria.

Humans also function with mass consciousness, yet we're entities. The whole universe is like this, with separate bodies, but containing entities, all derived from one consciousness. Your point may seem logical to you but it doesn't to me.

I see where some of this miscommunication is coming from. I really need reference from Ra about this.

The only info we have from Ra is whatever Don asked. Don didn't ask every question you and I might have. So we have to fill in the gaps by cross-referencing other sources. The Law of One provides the foundation but there are some missing pieces that need to be filled in. That's what we're all trying to do here.

What I'm saying is the argument you put forth does not sway me in your direction. The logic just isn't sufficient for me. It's a theory on how plant consciousness exists that supports your opinion, while mine is a theory which supports my opinion.

Specifically, there's been extensive study about the physical communication between bees. If they were of one mind, why would they need physical communication?

The cells in your body are all part of you - a single organism - yet they still communicate physically as well. In 4D, when a social memory complex is formed, entities will still have bodies, from what I understand.

This doesn't support your theory that the bees never leave group consciousness.

I know you are of the opinion that the same consciousness that inhabits one carrot is inhabiting the other. I don't share this opinion.

Yes, but your opinion is based on some points that I think you have misunderstood from Ra. I invite you to ponder the points I just gave, and re-read Ra's words to see if you still understand them the same. This is my opinion based on my own understanding, of course.

Nothing in Ra's words suggest that plants don't separate from group consciousness when they incarnate. This is an opinion I have because it seems logical that two separate body complexes have two different souls and not the same soul, and that incarnation is consistent across 2D species.

Let's return to the Ra quote about entities returning to group consciousness. Even taking your theory about group consciousness, why would a plant have to RETURN to group consciousness if it never left? And you're saying that animals didn't come FROM group consciousness. So who is leaving a group consciousness? How is it possible for them to RETURN to that group consciousness, if none ever came from it, and none ever left it?

On the one hand, you say each tuft of grass is an entity, yet on the other, you say all goats (and cats and dogs?) are the same. You don't seem to be taking into consideration any evolution at all during 2D, which is a very long density.

I'm saying a tuft of grass is an entity which incarnates and, when it dies, returns to its group consciousness. I'm saying a goat is an entity which incarnates and, when it dies, returns to its group consciousness. Like I stated, I'm not saying the group consciousness is made up of individuals, but the individuals do not have self-awareness.

Self-awareness can be scientifically studied.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness

It has a specific definition, and animals such as goats, cats, and dogs do not fit into that definition. Your pets can exemplify examples of self-awareness like we can exemplify examples of 4D love, but like Zenmaster said, they're not the same, otherwise the density system is pointless.

Because I'm not saying we shouldn't eat plants, rather, you are saying we shouldn't eat meat. Obviously we must kill 2D beings to sustain, whether it's plant or animals. You're basing your assumptions on an opinion that even when humanely slaughtered (anxiety free, pain free, happy lives), they suffer. I am saying, if that is true, it is also true of plants.

Maybe the animal who is 'humanely' slaughtered doesn't feel physical pain, but what about its mind and developing spirit? We know from Ra that in 2D, the mind/body/spirit complex is developing. This includes what is termed in psychology as a subconscious mind.

What about the mind and developing spirit of a 2D plant? You completely ignore those and murder them without that consideration.

Let's use an example of a 3D entity. Let's say a murderer kills a child while she is sleeping. By your logic, since the child didn't experience any physical pain, there was no trauma. (Please correct me if I am misunderstanding you.)

Or let's say a plant murderer murders a plant, or a goat murderer murders a goat. If none suffer physical pain, why do only plants not experience trauma?

In 2D it is just a mind/body complex, once it is inspirited it becomes mind/body/spirit, incarnating 3D.

As addressed earlier in this post, I believe you are drastically oversimplifying and leaving out major points made by Ra.

The Ra quote itself is pretty simple:

13.21 Questioner: Then how does the second density progress to the third?
Ra: I am Ra. The second density strives towards the third density which is the density of self-consciousness or self-awareness. The striving takes place through the higher second-density forms who are invested by third-density beings with an identity to the extent that they become self-aware mind/body complexes, thus becoming mind/body/spirit complexes and entering third density, the first density of consciousness of spirit.

Ra doesn't say, "thus becoming mind/body/spirit complexes and continuing their journey in second density to a hone a little bit of this self-awareness, then enters third density." They are invested to the extend they become aware. Yes, becoming aware is a process, but once they become aware, they enter 3D. The process is fast with investment from 3D beings, and very very slow without it.

I don't see why it's logical to think that once the process is finished, it continues on in 2D for a little bit. The process is finished, self-awareness achieved.

Let's look one more time at the other quote about this:

20.3 Questioner: So more and more second-density entities are making it into third density. Can you give me an example of a second-density entity coming into the third density in the recent past?
Ra: I am Ra. Perhaps the most common occurrence of second-density graduation during third-density cycle is the so-called pet.

For the animal which is exposed to the individualizing influences of the bond between animal and third-density entity, this individuation causes a sharp rise in the potential of the second density entity so that upon the cessation of physical complex the mind/body complex does not return into the undifferentiated consciousness of that species, if you will.

So, Ra is talking about PETS. We know this because they preface the statement by saying "the most common occurrence of second-density graduation during third-density cycle is the so-called pet."

Where do you think this pet soul came from? Was it already individuated, separate from the group consciousness? That does not make any sense based on this quote. If it did not come from group consciousness, it would not RETURN to that group consciousness after the incarnation, were no investment made. Based on this, I must dismiss the notion that as a general case, pets' consciousnesses don't originate from group consciousness. The would not be returning if they didn't. They'd stay individuated at the same level they entered. It's not like the incarnation would regress them to the point they'd return to the group consciousness.

Of course they'll gain their quirks and psychological conditioning within the incarnation that will cause them to act a certain way. The goats' personalities can be very obviously linked to genetics...that is, if the father was mean and the mother was mean, you better believe it's going to be a mean goat. Does that mean the soul coming from the group spirit was mean?

I don't want to offend you by extending it to house animals, but I do think people tend to over-personify animals of all kinds, even more so their personal pets. I love my pets, I love my goats, but it doesn't change anything knowing they come from a species mass consciousness.

Then this explains why you are able to kill them. I don't intend this to be offensive or critical of you, so please don't take this personally. I am just responding to what you just said. You are clearly a person with a conscience. For a person with conscience to be able to kill something, it must first be dehumanized, or objectified as a thing, rather than as a person.

As you do with plants. You kill plants as I kill animals. Again, I understand you don't view your plants as entities, but I do. A dandelion is a dandelion entity. A carrot is a carrot entity. They're striving to live, to reach for 3D, and you kill them.

I can basically turn the same logic you just used on my situation on yours. You think it's convenient for me to classify goat personality like I do, but it's convenient for you to classify plant consciousness like you do, so you are innocent of the murder of plants. In my eyes, you're not, and your beliefs are just as convenient to allow you to do this as you claim mine are.

Genetics plays a huge role in the temperament of animals.

What do you think about substituting animals with humans?

Humans souls are individuated, but you can't say that genetics doesn't play any role with humans. I hardly spent any time around my grandfather, and my mom is constantly telling me that we share mannerisms, inflections, reactions, etc. I obviously inherited some genetics from him.

What if a scientist, who didn't believe in the soul, told you that your thoughts, feelings and choices were all just a product of genetics?

A scientist who didn't believe in a soul would say that genetics play a part, as well as psychological conditioning. Obviously we, as 3D beings on the other side of the veil, realize our souls are individual, and we can carry this understanding into incarnation with us.

Are you saying genetics and psychological conditioning don't play any part in your thoughts, feelings, and choices? Do you think that you, Monica, are 100% your soul, and 0% ego?



(In the middle of me editing the post to fix quotation, they changed the posting software interface . The formatting is messed up and I can't figure out how to fix it)

Where does Ra say it begins a journey?

I provided the quote earlier in this post. (Ra didn't use the word journey, but the meaning is the same.)


Your logic that the process starts AFTER individuation is achieved does not make sense to me. The process is leading to individuation, that IS the process.

What I got from the quotes is that individuation is a process, of course. It takes all of 2D. Early 2D beings (like plants) are striving for individuation just like late 2D beings. It's not just late 2D beings going through the process of individuation. The process is called SECOND DENSITY.

Why do you not think this? What is the point of 2D incarnation is self-realization has developed? Once we realize, as a soul, we're separate from all other things, 3D work can be begun. Again, I think Ra states this rather clearly.

Already addressed.

Not really, you're not answering the real questions. 2D is for STRIVING for individuation. If that individuation is achieved, there's no point for 2D any more. Again, your logic that the process for individuation starts after individuation is achieved is very backwards to me. Also, how does an animal carry this self-awareness into the orange-ray body? Ra very clearly states the orange-ray body is without self-awareness.

I use it because of the way you are relating personality with soul. Q'uo, as well as many other channels, talk a LOT about how our individual personalities melt away within our soul. This is touching on a whole different topic if you want to start this discussion, I can pull up many Q'uo quotes about the nature of personalities. It would make quite an interesting thread, and put a twist on how you are discussing personalities I believe.

I know what you are referring to, but I don't see a conflict. There can't be a personality shell without the self-awareness to animate it.

Why does the soul which animates the body have to have self-awareness?

Killing plants has no place in 4D in my opinion.

Agreed!!! That's why we have to start now, to get to that point. As I've stated multiple times in this thread, people won't go from eating hamburgers to only fruit, overnight! It's a progression! The first step is to quite eating the beings that are obviously self-aware or on the road to self-awareness! Let's start with the basics. There are so many reasons that the meat industry is damaging the planet and people's health. Whereas, everyone knows that salads are healthy. You aren't going to have any luck getting people to quit eating their veggies, when right now, at this point in time, they are being told that eating more veggies will improve their health! Which is true - it does! Veggies are medicinal. They cleanse the body of the toxins ingested when eating meat and junk foods. Veggies are serving a purpose right now. But this is just temporary! It's a phase, not a permanent diet! The ultimate goal is to get to fruits, grains, nuts and seeds only! But in the meantime, if you want to convince people to quit eating veggies, it won't work! So we have to start with what is obviously bad for one's health, and obviously cruel, and obviously bad for the environment: MEAT.

That's your opinion, but the side comments I need to address.

"Obviously bad for one's health" - Processed food is bad for one's health, not just meat. Please find me a study which studies the health effects of grass-fed, responsibly raised, sustainable meat in moderation.
"Obviously cruel" - Humane farming is not cruel. Again, it's your opinion that murdering a plant is more moral than murdering an animal. Veggie gardening is very cruel.
"Obviously bad for the environment" - You obviously have not studied the effects of sustainable, responsible, grass-fed, mob grazing livestock ranching. What IS obviously bad for the environment is the mass produce industry, and you are perpetuating that by promoting vegetarianism. Responsibly raised meat is much better for the environment than irresponsibly grown crops. The state of both industries is very harmful right now, not just he meat industry.

I don't view these differing characteristics as an excuse to murder them. I just can't agree with "It seems like it was made to murder, so we should murder it instead."

You are drastically twisting my words.

Only because you don't view murdering plants as murder. Otherwise, it is exactly what you're saying. They can't feel it, so it was designed to be better to murder them than something that can.

Philosophically, spiritually, metaphysically, what would be the point of a 2D animal incarnating into a 2D incarnation with self-awareness? How does it carry this into its orange ray body, which Ra says is without self-awareness?

The same as a 3D human continuing to reincarnate as a human, to further develop green ray, working towards graduation to 4D.

Remember, all rays are in potentiation, in all densities.

I don't believe a harvestable 3D entity would continue to incarnate.
All rays are in potentiation, but that doesn't mean I can activate them in this incarnation. If it did, then I wouldn't have to die to graduate to 4D, I could just activate the 4D body.