In regards to eating meat

[Monica]

Being a 2D being, it is a mind/body complex. Both are mind/body complexes. If it had achieved mind/body/spirit complex before incarnation, it would not be incarnating 2D.

I believe you are mistaken here. That is like saying that if a human had achieved green ray activation (love/compassion) then it would not be incarnating 3D, but would instantly go straight to 4D.

That's not how it works. It's a process. There are sub-densities. Green ray activation and its corresponding features (love/compassion/forgiveness etc.) develop over many incarnations.

Likewise, a late 2D entity's self-awareness develops over many incarnations. Once the process has started, it no longer returns to the group soul, but begins its own individual path, so that it can further develop is self-awareness, until it has reached the threshold in which it is able to graduate to 3D.

The spiritual complex is developed, over time, not "awarded" instantly.

18.18 Questioner: Can you tell me Yahweh’s purpose in making the genetic sexual changes?
Ra: I am Ra. The purpose 75,000 years ago, as you measure time, was of one purpose only: that to express in the mind/body complex those characteristics which would lead to further and more speedy development of the spiritual complex

And now re-read the following quote, with the previous quote in mind:

20.3 Questioner: So more and more second-density entities are making it into third density. Can you give me an example of a second-density entity coming into the third density in the recent past?
Ra: I am Ra. Perhaps the most common occurrence of second-density graduation during third-density cycle is the so-called pet.

For the animal which is exposed to the individualizing influences of the bond between animal and third-density entity, this individuation causes a sharp rise in the potential of the second density entity so that upon the cessation of physical complex the mind/body complex does not return into the undifferentiated consciousness of that species, if you will

Notice that Ra doesn't use the word entity to describe a being 2D, pre-exposure to 3D influence causing the rise in potential of 2D entity. The word animal is used instead. This seems to imply that the 2D animal becomes a 2D entity, upon that rise of potential (whether triggered by 3D influence or by normal evolution).

A single exposure to the individualizing influence won't instantly catapult a 2D entity into 3D. What is an influence? An influence just gets the process started. But it's still a process. The influence of the human on his pet causes a sharp rise in the potential of the 2D entity. What is potential? This means the 2D entity now has activated more potential, to gain more value out of continued 2D incarnations. But whether it happens in a single lifetime or many, doesn't matter. It's a process that was initiated by the influence of the 3D entity on his pet. It logically follows that the 3D entity will continue to influence the pet, possibly over multiple incarnations, just as 3D entities influence other 3D entities in the development of 4D qualities, until they are ready to graduate to 4D. A threshold must be crossed, which may take time (and experiences) to reach.

30.5 Questioner: I would like to know how the mind/body/spirit complexes originate, going as far back as necessary. How does the origination occur? Do they originate by spirit forming mind and mind forming body? Can you tell me this?
Ra: I am Ra. We ask you to consider that you are attempting to trace evolution. This evolution is as we have previously described, the consciousness being first, in first density, without movement, a random thing. Whether you may call this mind or body complex is a semantic problem. We call it mind/body complex recognizing always that in the simplest iota of this complex exists in its entirety the One Infinite Creator; this mind/body complex then in second density discovering the growing and turning towards the light, thus awakening what you may call the spirit complex, that which intensifies the upward spiraling towards the love and light of the Infinite Creator.

It's a process.

Yes, a tuft of grass will strive for life outside of other tufts of grass. Plant it separate from any other tuft of grass and it will still strive for life.

So will a single strand of grass, as long as it has a bit of root. A tuft might be composed of multiple strands. My point is that your separation of the grass into x number of entities is completely arbitrary.

It's weird to me that it isn't obvious to you that a carrot will strive for life outside of other carrots. Kill one carrot next to another carrot, the other carrot strives for life.

You are referring to only the physical body of the carrot. I am referring to its consciousness.

Entity being mind/body complex. This is what Ra describes the orange-ray body being. A physical body complex. That is an entity.

Ra never used the word entity along with mind-body complex.

This too is obvious to me. I can't really grasp your concept that a carrot is not separate from another carrot. They're both different physical body complexes, not the same. You kill one, it has no effect on the other. Again, I don't know what to say if you don't perceive them as different body complexes.

I never said they weren't different body complexes.

They obviously are. But that doesn't make them different entities. You are equating the body complex with entity.

As I said in my last post, bacteria and even bees and ants have separate bodies, but there is much evidence to suggest that they are actually a single organism. Ask any beekeeper or read some beekeeping books. Research the behavior of bacteria.

I see where some of this miscommunication is coming from. I really need reference from Ra about this.

The only info we have from Ra is whatever Don asked. Don didn't ask every question you and I might have. So we have to fill in the gaps by cross-referencing other sources. The Law of One provides the foundation but there are some missing pieces that need to be filled in. That's what we're all trying to do here.

Specifically, there's been extensive study about the physical communication between bees. If they were of one mind, why would they need physical communication?

The cells in your body are all part of you - a single organism - yet they still communicate physically as well. In 4D, when a social memory complex is formed, entities will still have bodies, from what I understand.

I know you are of the opinion that the same consciousness that inhabits one carrot is inhabiting the other. I don't share this opinion.

Yes, but your opinion is based on some points that I think you have misunderstood from Ra. I invite you to ponder the points I just gave, and re-read Ra's words to see if you still understand them the same. This is my opinion based on my own understanding, of course.

On the one hand, you say each tuft of grass is an entity, yet on the other, you say all goats (and cats and dogs?) are the same. You don't seem to be taking into consideration any evolution at all during 2D, which is a very long density.

Because I'm not saying we shouldn't eat plants, rather, you are saying we shouldn't eat meat. Obviously we must kill 2D beings to sustain, whether it's plant or animals. You're basing your assumptions on an opinion that even when humanely slaughtered (anxiety free, pain free, happy lives), they suffer. I am saying, if that is true, it is also true of plants.

Maybe the animal who is 'humanely' slaughtered doesn't feel physical pain, but what about its mind and developing spirit? We know from Ra that in 2D, the mind/body/spirit complex is developing. This includes what is termed in psychology as a subconscious mind.

Let's use an example of a 3D entity. Let's say a murderer kills a child while she is sleeping. By your logic, since the child didn't experience any physical pain, there was no trauma. (Please correct me if I am misunderstanding you.)

But don't you think that child experienced trauma on a deep psychological level? Do you think an entity can have its physical vehicle snuffed out and not even notice?

Obviously we must kill 2D beings to sustain, whether it's plant or animals.

Not true. It is possible to sustain ourselves by not killing any plants or animals, though it's not possible to avoid microorganisms. The ultimate karma-free diet is to eat only fruits, grains, nuts and seeds. Which is the diet I am advocating, except for vegetables. Only the vegetables are being killed, if you choose to disregard my opinion that, when consumed live, their consciousness merges with ours. So if you disagree with that theory, then simply don't eat vegetables. You can live on fruits, grains, nuts and seeds, and nothing was killed. You could even add some eggs and dairy products, provided the eggs are from free-roaming chickens and the milk from cows that graze, rather than from factory-farmed cows, who are treated just as cruelly as meat cows. You'd just be missing the veggies, so it's questionable how healthy the diet would be, but hey, most people don't have healthy diets anyway, so it might all balance out. But it would avoid killing. (If you can set aside the fact that cows eat plants in order to live, that is.)

In 2D it is just a mind/body complex, once it is inspirited it becomes mind/body/spirit, incarnating 3D.

As addressed earlier in this post, I believe you are drastically oversimplifying and leaving out major points made by Ra.

Of course they'll gain their quirks and psychological conditioning within the incarnation that will cause them to act a certain way. The goats' personalities can be very obviously linked to genetics...that is, if the father was mean and the mother was mean, you better believe it's going to be a mean goat. Does that mean the soul coming from the group spirit was mean?

I don't want to offend you by extending it to house animals, but I do think people tend to over-personify animals of all kinds, even more so their personal pets. I love my pets, I love my goats, but it doesn't change anything knowing they come from a species mass consciousness.

Then this explains why you are able to kill them. I don't intend this to be offensive or critical of you, so please don't take this personally. I am just responding to what you just said. You are clearly a person with a conscience. For a person with conscience to be able to kill something, it must first be dehumanized, or objectified as a thing, rather than as a person.

My dogs and cats are persons. I don't view their personalities as merely genetic machinations. They are entities, with thoughts and feelings, and free will. They are part of my family.

Genetics plays a huge role in the temperament of animals.

What do you think about substituting animals with humans?

Genetics plays a huge role in the temperament of humans.

What if a scientist, who didn't believe in the soul, told you that your thoughts, feelings and choices were all just a product of genetics?

Also, I should point out, where do you think we get our personalities? Do you think that our personalities will continue to develop, or fall away as we progress through densities? The personality is often called by Carla and Q'uo a "personality shell," it is not something inherent in our soul, like biases or polarization. It is mainly something we gain or develop during an incarnation. You noticed how Ra had very little personality.

That is a topic for another discussion and too deep to get into here. Please feel free to start a thread on that topic if you like. For now, I will just say that I think that we chose to incarnate into bodies with certain genetics, in order to accommodate whatever catalyst we needed. In other words, our genetics reflects our soul's development and choices for this incarnation, rather than our personalities being defined by random genetics. The higher we evolve, the less that random comes into play. 2D entities have a higher random factor, but other than that, the same is true.

Regarding Ra, we can't apply personality to a Social Memory Complex. Remember, Ra isn't a person; Ra is a civilization. Furthermore, Ra was attempting to minimize distortion, so the trappings of personality, or flavoring, was intentionally eliminated, in order to keep the data pure. This has nothing to do with any personality that an entire civilization might have.

Where does Ra say it begins a journey?

I provided the quote earlier in this post. (Ra didn't use the word journey, but the meaning is the same.)

13.21 Questioner: Then how does the second density progress to the third?
Ra: I am Ra. The second density strives towards the third density which is the density of self-consciousness or self-awareness. The striving takes place through the higher second-density forms who are invested by third-density beings with an identity to the extent that they become self-aware mind/body complexes, thus becoming mind/body/spirit complexes and entering third density, the first density of consciousness of spirit.

That to me clearly says that once they become self-aware, they enter third density.

Yes but not instantly. See the beginning of this post.

The question was very specific. Ra doesn't say, "Then it will begin its journey to third density." If there were more to it, Ra would have said so, because it was the question which was asked.

There was more to it, as I already explained.

What I clearly see in goats is a goat soul, coming from goat mass consciousness, with all the normal goat behaviors, filtered through their brain which was derived from genetics and psychological conditioning. At their heart of it, every goat acts the same. They do have individual personalities, because none of them are going to inherit the exact same genetics and develop the exact same psychological conditions. But I don't take this to mean they're individuated souls.

You could say the same about humans. They just have a wider range of behaviors. And in fact, many scientists and psychologists do say that about humans.

Why do you not think this? What is the point of 2D incarnation is self-realization has developed? Once we realize, as a soul, we're separate from all other things, 3D work can be begun. Again, I think Ra states this rather clearly.

Already addressed.

Surely every mammal we watch can seem to have a personality because of the nature of mammal genetics and psychology. Do you think every single mammal on the planet has reached self-realization? What would make them different from 3D beings then?

Not self-realization; self-awareness.

I have a lot of birds in my yard. I enjoy watching the mockingbirds. They like to tease my dogs. I remember watching mockingbirds tease my cats when I was a child. They pretty much all act the same. They're mockingbirds.

A couple of weeks ago, I found a baby mockingbird who had fallen out of the nest a bit too early. It was almost ready to fly but not quite. Had I done nothing, the dogs or cats would surely have gotten it. So I did the obvious thing and picked it up, intending to feed it for a few days until it could fly. Much to my dismay, I learned from wildlife rescue that baby birds won't eat when hand-fed from humans. They advised me to put it back outside so its parents could feed it and teach it. So I built a circular cage without a top, made of chicken wire, and put it in the garden. (The cage wouldn't keep cats out but would at least keep dogs out, and the dogs would keep the cats out of that area of the yard.)

I spent an evening and a morning with this little bird. It kept chirping incessantly, but every time I held it near my heart and consciously sent it love, it instantly quit chirping. Every time. It most definitely could feel the love.

I talked to this little bird. I looked it in the eye. My son's girlfriend gave it lots of love too, and even kissed its head.

The bird didn't make it, unfortunately. I felt very upset that I had failed to save it.

But, I can only wonder what effect our care might have had on that little bird's soul development.

I have a pact with wasps. I tell them where they're allowed to build their nests, and if they build a nest too close to the door, I ask them to move it. They always do, usually within a few days.

Whenever a bee or wasp gets into the house, I catch it and set it free. Yesterday, a wasp was in my son's room. He and his girlfriend aren't into catching wasps, so they asked me to catch it. The wasp kept flying into the light covering. We finally had to unscrew it and take it off, but by that time the wasp looked groggy and had probably gotten singed. So here I was, trying to heal a burnt wasp! I gave it love and finally set it free, along with a message to deliver to its family that had the nest too near the door.

That wasp had an interaction with 3D entities. I can only wonder what effect if might have had and whether the spark of self-awareness was born.

But to think that that bird or wasp are ready for 3D would be, well, preposterous. It was only a fleeting influence. But the seed for self-awareness was planted. Maybe the wasp will be a bird next time, and a goat after that, and a cat after that. Then, maybe after a few lifetimes (or a few hundred lifetimes? who knows?) will be ready to be a human.

I use it because of the way you are relating personality with soul. Q'uo, as well as many other channels, talk a LOT about how our individual personalities melt away within our soul. This is touching on a whole different topic if you want to start this discussion, I can pull up many Q'uo quotes about the nature of personalities. It would make quite an interesting thread, and put a twist on how you are discussing personalities I believe.

I know what you are referring to, but I don't see a conflict. There can't be a personality shell without the self-awareness to animate it.

Killing plants has no place in 4D in my opinion.

Agreed!!! That's why we have to start now, to get to that point. As I've stated multiple times in this thread, people won't go from eating hamburgers to only fruit, overnight! It's a progression! The first step is to quite eating the beings that are obviously self-aware or on the road to self-awareness! Let's start with the basics. There are so many reasons that the meat industry is damaging the planet and people's health. Whereas, everyone knows that salads are healthy. You aren't going to have any luck getting people to quit eating their veggies, when right now, at this point in time, they are being told that eating more veggies will improve their health! Which is true - it does! Veggies are medicinal. They cleanse the body of the toxins ingested when eating meat and junk foods. Veggies are serving a purpose right now. But this is just temporary! It's a phase, not a permanent diet! The ultimate goal is to get to fruits, grains, nuts and seeds only! But in the meantime, if you want to convince people to quit eating veggies, it won't work! So we have to start with what is obviously bad for one's health, and obviously cruel, and obviously bad for the environment: MEAT.

At any rate, as I've said before, if one doesn't feel comfortable, then there's a simple solution: simply don't eat plants! Eat only fruits, grains, nuts and seeds which have fallen from the plants. But using that as a justification for eating animals, doesn't work for me.

They are a different class of life that has different characteristics.

Why would they have different characteristics, if not to accommodate a developing consciousness as souls traverse various physical incarnations? 2D is a very long density. Surely bird souls don't stay birds the entire density.

I don't view these differing characteristics as an excuse to murder them. I just can't agree with "It seems like it was made to murder, so we should murder it instead."

You are drastically twisting my words.

Philosophically, spiritually, metaphysically, what would be the point of a 2D animal incarnating into a 2D incarnation with self-awareness? How does it carry this into its orange ray body, which Ra says is without self-awareness?

The same as a 3D human continuing to reincarnate as a human, to further develop green ray, working towards graduation to 4D.

Remember, all rays are in potentiation, in all densities.