In regards to eating meat

[unity100]

Ah, yes, I did read that part, where you put forth the (obviously admittedly) radical idea of consuming sand and air for sustenance. It didn't register completely because I didn't see the mention of insects.

insects stand naturally higher in development ladder than 1d entities.
i think you are referring to the concept of having to kill insects with pesticides in order to protect your garden.

the ideal would be not to kill any insects or animals, but to persist through the products of the ecosystem. good example comes to mind, is fruit trees and the symbiont relationship that man can have with them.

if you can set up such an ecosystem, then it would work towards the ideal nicely. yet, you could still find the way the ecosystem works in some respects disturbing, like predation of ecosystem participants in between each other and whatnot.

however it may not be possible to accomplish any kind of proper balance, due to the quite hostile nature of the current ecosystem of the planet.

therefore, you may have to kill some types of insects. then again, if you have been assaulted by any other man, you would have the same dilemma too.

however, even outside this dilemma, having to kill aggressive insects does not allow justifying of killing higher developed entities.

the aim is to go pure as possible.

I agree with the principle you put forth, but what I guess I didn't see was any practical applications? Given the average as well as the varied extreme human metabolisms, are you aware of any way to sustain off of 1D material?

actually we are sustaining off of 1d material at any given time. you need fructose as base element to use in cells as fuel. then a multitude of various other, more complex 1d materials are used to maintain the body, vitamins and so on. there are also alternative fuel sources like fat and so on.

you can take these materials through any way possible. you can take it by drinking sugar water, or by eating fruit, in the end, you are taking it in to break it down to fructose or other complex sugars to burn. same goes for all items.

I think that we are basically in agreeance as far as slaughter of 2D beings goes, that is, a 2D being is a 2D being, whether it's a bug, carrot, tree, or chicken. Correct me if I'm wrong.

that's not correct. 2d is a veeery long density that spans 2 billion years. it is one of the longest densities if we dont consider the densities that go into timelessness. (6th and above)

and, ra says it is an octave of consciousness, complete with its polarities.

if you consider the fact that early 2d virus, and late 3d primates who were roaming the land just 100,000 years ago are in the same density we call 2d, you would see that the ramifications of such killing would be quite serious. or you can compare a 1d virus with a gorilla or chimpanzee that is showing recognizable humane compassion, towards, say, a cat.

That opinion being, it's more "humane" to "violently slaughter" (as it would be put) a vegetable. You contend it's possible for the goats to feel betrayed when they are taken to be slaughtered, but I would contend it's possible for plants to feel that same betrayal.

Or how about lettuce, spinach, brocolli, and kale? Even if you utilize a "cut and come again" harvest method, once the plant starts bolting, how many gardeners continue to allow the plant to grow? In that plant's view, the human that "cared" for it its entire life simply came along, chopped off its limbs every other week, and then violently slaughtered it by uprooting it once it was no longer useful. I can hear the lettuce plant now, "I thought you loved me!!"

and you are right. you shouldnt kill, or mutilate, or suck off etc the plants in your garden either.

there is an endless scale of purity. and what you speak of stands higher than what was spoken before.

Even things like fruit trees...how would that tree feel if it knew you were taking its fruit, which it put forth so it could procreate, and you not plant that seed? The fruit tree, especially one in an orchard for selling fruit, could feel very betrayed because none of the fruit it puts forward is being used for its true intended purpose.

of course. however, the concern for this case, is at a purity level which stands higher than the earlier - the kill/mutilate situation.

in the standards of the ecosystem of this planet, it actually stands quite close to top, and is a good level to achieve. indeed, you need to plant the seed of the fruit tree at least every now and then, and provide care and raise it to be a new offspring.

actually, there are possibilities of standing even higher - there are trees which has evolved their fruits so that they are designed to be eaten by herbivores, with a digest-resistant seed, so that the herbivore will carry the seed over to new locations, and cast it off with its excrement, providing not only mobility, but also fertilizer for the seed in the end. such a specie of trees would be much more in agreement of the arrangement.

Then of course, single harvest plants I feel don't need an explanation.

actually there is an exception to single harvest plant case.

there are plant species which live for only a season, and then die, naturally. they are designed as such, and you cannot sustain them even if you attempt to make them live past their period.

wheat for example.

basically, we are eating the seeds of dead corpses which had already passed through their incarnation on this planet. the ramifications of seed-fruit situation still apply. however, there is no brutality, slaughter, betrayal, exploitation in the end - at most, you classify as a corpse eater, but this even doesnt apply since you are eating seeds. in addition, you are indeed planting many seeds every season. the hardest argument that can be made would be that the grain specie consciousness would like that their seeds planted more each season, leading to more grain incarnations. this is, something we are already doing actually.

Now, I understand it's your personal opinion that it's more moral to slaughter plant life than animal life, I just wish to illustrate that the betrayal concept plays in with that opinion. It easily extends to a vegetable garden when you meet a differing opinion.

more than that, it extends to everything.

everything is infinite intelligence. everything you interact, even the concepts you think, are therefore, intelligent. you are doing whatever you are doing to intelligent infinity.

If this were a consideration of the Logos while it was "designing" life to whatever extent it really has control, we should be able to sustain ourselves on 1D material without having to slaughter any 2D beings. The Logos could easily design all 2D and 3D life to sustain off of 1D material (wouldn't that be a wonderful existence!).

then you wouldnt be able to express a higher level of purity, and progress into finer qualities, by manifesting a higher understanding into your actions by not doing any slaughter.

It's funny you should mention that! Not necessarily, but ever since I was a small child I thought mowing the lawn was a very backwards thing to do. You plant all this seed, asking this grass to grow, and then you go and cut it down, stopping it from growing!

your perception and insight into this is quite deep and apt. it is indeed something rather brutal. like a torture. the plant, came to this planet to grow, and i wants to grow.

Personally, I wouldn't consider our hair individual entities like I would plants.

and, i would. in the end, there are cells that are manifesting individuality as a member of the collective that is the cellular collective that is the human body.

Again, let's extend the concept to this density as you are doing. More heinous to murder a less spiritually aware person?

more heinous to murder a more spiritually aware person, indeed. the laws that apply in regard to development and responsibility dont skip densities.

But we know plants are living entities. And there are carnivorous animals. Why wouldn't the Logos design another type of food for them?

that would be due to the preferences, and particular plan of the logos. this logos would have chosen a much more vile ecosystem. (and in the past, there was). or much more a positive, harmonious ecosystem.

you would find different situations in the planets of different logoi.

That's dealing specifically with the "type of warfare we experience." We came out of 2D rather naturally violent

that is also quite perceptive. leave aside this planet's population, apparently even the populations of mars and maldek came out naturally violent out of 2d.

this, probably has to do with the situations logos created in 2d. 2d shaped these entities into being violent.

one of the reasons may be logos's attempt to make entities positive by making them weak compared to their ecosystem so they would have to depend on each other. if you are weak to survive, its inevitable that you adopt a warlike attitude against environment (including others) to survive.

Basing this argument on Ra, it's clear that an entity doesn't become "individualized" until it graduates to 3D. No matter what, a 2D soul returns to the group consciousness after incarnation. I'm not buying your argument here, a plant is a 2D entity, and goat is a 2D entity, neither have reached individuation. If I have two plants of the same nature standing next to each other, and two similar goats, I can kill one plant and it's gone, the other remains. I can kill one goat and it's gone, the other remains.

Either way, the soul returns to group consciousness. So why is the pain of death worse on animal group consciousness and not plant group consciousness? We return to the argument of plants being "designed" for us to eat.

again, that would be incorrect.

just like how 3d entities do not wait, wait, wait at the same level and polarize instantly overnight at the end of 3d,

2d entities also do not stay in one development level and instantly become conscious at the end of 2d.

that is utterly wrong, and also dismisses a lot of important information from the Ra material :

each density has sub-octaves. so, there are different levels in each density in which consciousness is manifested. this includes 2d.

ra says 2d is an octave of consciousness, just like others. this is in line with the above, and its normal corollary.

you dont leap densities overnight. you have to slowly come closer to qualification and pass a resistance barrier. resistance barrier does not change everything - a newly 3d entity behaves very similar to a late 2d entity, just like how a newly 4d entity would have a lot of behavior that can be traced back to a late 3d entity.

Well, we did like raw meat at one point. The world has obviously gotten used to the idea of fire, using it to cook meats. We've become cultured to cooked meat, and evolved out of our ability to eat raw meat. It wasn't uncommon for hunter-gatherer tribes to eat what they could off of a freshly killed carcass before smoking the rest to be saved.

that is the current proposition. if you start flapping your arms, in a few million years you could evolve some batwings. there is not telling that the capacity to eat meat was evolved in the same manner, from a state that we were not able to eat meat.

however this information is totally irrelevant. just because you have a body that 'can', does not mean you 'should'.

What sort of effort does it take to responsibly raise and non-violently kill a goat? It's easier than being violent. And it takes much less effort than it does to take care of my garden!

thats easy - to NOT kill the goat. dairy products can sustain you quite well, and the longer you dont kill your goats, the more goats and dairy products you will have. however, the practical implications of this cannot qualify before the moral one - killing is wrong.

Oooooh Monica, you KNOW I do what I do because of the factory farm animals. People are becoming educated and want responsibly, humanely raised meat. True story, in the past week I've had two vegetarians buy goat meat from me because they simply stopped eating animals because of inhumane animal treatment. Now they know how to find farms which treat their animals humanely, and are ready to start eating meat again. I'm happy people are getting educated about the state of the meat industry as well as the availability of humane meat.

i dont think supporting the people to transition into a 'better' version of orange ray negativity of stealing the other entity's manifestation energy, is something you should be striving for.

in the end, what they should do actually should be to stop stealing as much as they can, so that their orange ray regression can diminish and stabilize. them snatching bodies of entities and using them for sustenance is not the desired result, but, not to do as such.

Well, the goat's soul travels back to the mass consciousness immediately after death, how is it different for the goat?

that consciousness is not a monolithic, leveled consciousness like you portray.

just like how there is an entire octave of consciousness here in 3d, there is an octave of consciousness in that group soul. some stand closer to top, floating lighter, some closer to bottom. all deceased group soul members would float to their own level. and eventually, float out of group soul towards the above consciousness.

If I were Earth, my hair might be 2D beings...but I'm not Tongue. My single hairs are not instilled with 2D consciousness, plants are.

actually, even scientifically, you are a collective of single cells. this has been recently accepted in science. we are much more developed collectives than the early 2d ones, yet, we apparently are still collectives of 2d entities.

singular cells coalescing to collectives as complex bodies, complex body entities coalescing to collectives as society complexes, society complexes coalescing into other collectives, them coalescing into the universes, all universes coalescing back into all the way back to the initial collective that was the central logos.

this seems to be the progression back towards the initial logos.

If I could, I'd place the line between 1D and 2D, but our Logos was a jerk. Maybe we should go on a hunger strike? Protest our Logos' choice of environment encouraging us to eat 2D entities.

there is nothing barring you from doing that. in fact, its your spiritual preference. there are endless logoi with endless environments and manifestations. if you dont like the situation here, you are entitled to voice your objection, and request placement to a better environment for your preferences.

It seems you are saying every mammal which we personify graduates to 3D? Do you think all of my goats graduate to 3D when they die? Every mammal you perceive to have personality, does it not return to group soul? Ra says differently.

actually, there may be already 3d qualified entities among your goats. i would like to reference gandalf again, the ll household cat that was identified as qualified for 3d, but came to 2d body to be with the ll entities.

Do you see no difference in the 2 plants? I could look at one spiny thistle that is runty, crooked, and lacking strong branches, and name him "Runty."

that is quite a proper thing to do. how nice would it be, if you did that, and not kill your goats or plants.

They are individual animals, but Ra clearly states that until they reach the point of individuation, they return to the group soul. Are you really saying you think every animal which we perceive to have personality graduates 2D? I cannot agree with this.

i dont know how you people could have dragged this group soul/2d consciousness always the same debate for this long.

2d is an octave of consciousness, like any other, ra said. all densities have sub octaves. no entity in different stages of a density, are in the same level of consciousness or development.

indeed, you just dont gain stuff after graduating from a density. you MUST qualify the end-game requirement for the density BEFORE you graduate, and this doesnt come overnight. you raise in vibration of your consciousness constantly until you qualify. this is no different for 2d.

it is illogical to propose that a virus is at a similar level of consciousness like a gorilla. they arent. and that doesnt even require quoting references. not that it wasnt referenced though.

So you ARE saying all goats will graduate to 3d? I will again disagree. Not every animal we perceive as having personality will graduate. It takes more investment than us simply perceiving personality.

any particular goat you have (unless the entity has not purposefully reincarnated into that body despite being of higher consciousness in 2d, or, even in 3d - like gandalf), would pass into a group soul with a higher vibration of consciousness than the goat group, when it qualifies, and this would probably go on until the entity is incarnated in a group that provides the most vibration before 3d, one last time before qualifying for 3d.

The fact that, until the animal reaches individuation, it returns to the group soul, as stated by Ra.

it is appalling to see that, you, who has been quite sharp and apt in a lot of observations and interpretations, have been so easily forgetting the 'sub octaves' concept, and 'an octave of consciousness' phrase Ra had expressed about 2d and all other densities.

maybe its because of your opinion in this particular matter effecting into a bias.

What happens when an aphid dies? Is it a catastrophic event? Not likely. 2D entities aren't individually aware yet, but they do retain awareness of being One with the Creator. This leads me to conclude that physical death isn't such a big deal to them.

2d entities are individualized from the logos of this solar system according to their development.

so basically, if a end 2d entity is individualized to the extent of being able to live in 3d (i would like to remind you that one of the cats (gandalf i remember) in ll household was already qualified as a 3d entity even during his incarnation), it means that from a late 2d entity to early 2d entity a whole 2 billion years' worth of individualization exists.

Rather, I am simply reporting back what these 'green witches' have claimed, and what I've accepted as likely true, because it makes sense to me: Lower 2D entities (most plants and insects) seem to have a consciousness that's an extension of Mother Earth, much like the hairs on our heads, rather than as individual entities.

i would like to remind that even the most advanced forms of channeling arent immune from biases of the entity. that would place any 'green witches' or anyone else's claims in that direction even less objective. i would just see it as a justification of the current societal mindset.

Does the aphid know that humans exist? On an individual level, not likely. So, when the human kills a colony of aphids to protect his tomato plants, those aphids aren't likely to take it personally. That human is, to the aphid, like an earthquake is to us: a force of Nature.

Impersonal.

The aphids roll with it. They move on. Death and rebirth are cyclical, to an entity who has not yet become self-aware. There is no attachment to physical life.

it doesnt depend on the aphid. nothing is lost in creation. this includes acts and events. law of responsibility will not care whether aphid cared about getting whacked or not - it will act according to the laws set at the beginning of existence, and will probably factor the aphid's development state, and the entity's development state into the equation, and the event.

That goat most surely is capable of feeling affection, even love. I know beyond any doubt that my dogs and cats love me. I've never had a pet goat, but I see no reason to think that a goat is any different from a cat or dog. Yet, most humans would cringe at the thought of raising their cats and dogs, hugging them and loving them, and then killing them. Such a thought would be viewed as reprehensible.

Why, then, is it any different with a farmer/rancher killing his goats?

extreme hypocrisy, and self-indulgent nature of orange ray society.

As unity100 has pointed out, to be killed by the human caretaker is incongruent. It is as if a mother murders her child. It seems reasonable to conclude that a child murdered by the person s/he loved and trusted, might be even more traumatized, than a child murdered by someone s/he knew was cruel.

This is a disturbing conclusion, I realize.

precisely. and it would as well alienate and distance the budding soul from the feelings of love, warmth, nurture, closeness.

Much as a child can be influenced by his/her parents...the perennial question of nature vs nurture...we surely do influence our younger 2D brethren. We may dramatically affect what sort of humans they will be someday...maybe even whether their 3D reality will be as barbaric as ours...or will it be something better.

or, with best results, lead to development as souls as hypocrite as the act itself - seemingly accepting one (in this case positive) set of values, but totally acting against them whenever self-interest requires.

Vegetarianism, as a philosophical construct, is based on the doctrine of ahimsa, or nonviolence toward living things. This concept was originally born in India circa the first millennium BC, and was largely a reaction to the practice of animal sacrifice, as prescribed by the Vedas. Ahimsa was largely promoted by Mahavira as one of the core tenets of Jainism, but as a philosophical principle, has become incorporated into many other belief systems.

vegetarianism you see here is being deduced from the concept of vibration level of the entity, and law of responsibility. not the popular meaning of the word.

in case you havent noticed, we are diving down to treatment of 1d entities. this means, rocks, weather, water.

This is the bottom line. Everything else is an illusion. Including that hamburger.

Says who? I say that we already are beings of light. Some of us remember, some of us do not.

I believe I gave this explanation twice. It is the basic tenet of the Law of One. However I don't mind restating it.


All is light. There is no darkness. There is no death. There is only light.

The apple is light. The spinach is light. The cow is light. And you are light. This is not just a metaphysical truth, but a physical one. It is expressed in the following equation:

E=mc^2

Can't get much simpler than that.

I'm not talking about the experts here. I'm talking about your everyday people who decide on a whim to become vegetarian and think that an iceberg lettuce salad with two slices of cucumber and a cherry tomato is a good choice. You obviously have taken the time to educate yourself on the matter. Many people do not.

i am one of those people who decide on a 'whim' to become vegetarian, and subsisting on cheese, bread, water, tea or their variants etc for the last 14 years. leave aside iceberg lettuce salad with two slices of cucumber and a cherry tomato, im rarely eating vegetables or fruits.

not only i am as healthy as an ox, but i am much more healthier compared to pre 1997.

How can slaughter be nonviolent?

With respect, gratitude, and a conscious effort to minimize or eliminate pain.

are you aware that, the above proposition of yours, totally invalidates views you expressed in one of the threads about military and killing of other entities ?

if slaughter can be nonviolent, killing of other people can also be made nonviolent with respect, gratitude, and a conscious effort to minimize or eliminate pain.

then you can just close down this site in your web browser, forget all you learned from Ra material, and just keep on living randomly. for, all is an illusion and nothing else matters.

But it seems that you haven't. You have invented an idea of what seems to be an arbitrary point of becoming 'self-aware', but have squarely placed it between the plant and animal kingdoms. However, according to Ra: "The second density strives towards the third density which is the density of self-consciousness or self-awareness." Unharvested 2D-entities do not live in the density of self-awareness, any more than 3D entities live in the 4th density of love or understanding. Native 2D entities are not yet enspirited in their cycle of evolution. They are still multi-billion year evolved body/mind complexes.

just as polarization does not happen overnight for a 3d entity, self-realization doesnt happen for 2d entities overnight. it is a 2 billion year process.

the evidence is evident - the higher intellect, capability understanding etc of the late 2d entities as opposed to a virus.

I interpret what Ra says differently. 'Love' is an expression of the logos. It is what has been uniquely actualized from that template. If we've evolved past the emotional need, then we have the beginnings of compassion - not the longing-for-acceptance stage experienced from late 2D to early-mid 3D.

That 2D dog's 'love' is the expression of the logos of an entity striving to enter 3D experience of self. It's a reflection of 3D catalyst offer to the 2D mind - a type of patterning. There is no capability for willed action, psychological projection, hopes, dreams, etc. 2D green-ray use does go beyond the point required for 2D harvest. It's also not the eventual green-ray activation point in 3D evolutionary learning where incarnations cease to become automatic and self-determination (use of will) is made.

The next-door neighbor's 'love' is similarly limited, not by what the 2D-experience of mind can provide, but by 'polarity' of an enspirited entity. Comparing that 'love' to 4D 'love' is like comparing a line to a plane or circumstantial understanding to certain understanding. It diminishes the concept of love in both cases.

that would be incorrect. 2d entities are capable of manifesting love. as an example, you can look at gandalf the cat, which you can read in book v. leave aside being qualified for 3d, this entity was able to manifest love, even if in 2d terms.