In regards to eating meat

[Monica]

I don't think any being was designed to be eaten, but rather it became that way as a matter of survival.

There had to have been some sort of design for sustenance.

Our difference of opinion might be based on presuppositions having to do with evolution. I don't subscribe to 'Darwinian' evolution.

But we know plants are living entities.

Here is the crux of our disagreement. What is your definition of entity? You just said in this post that you don't believe plants or animals are individuated until after they graduate to 3D (if I understood you correctly). How, then, could it be an entity, if it's not individuated?

My understanding of entity is a being who has an identity and an individual being. If you are using a different definition, then that would explain why we're not connecting on these points.

And there are carnivorous animals. Why wouldn't the Logos design another type of food for them?

The Logos designed vegetation as food, apparently, since most beings eat vegetation. Carnivorous animals get vegetation second-hand, by eating animals who consume vegetation.

I find this inefficient and unnecessarily cruel. I also find it incomprehensible that the Logos would be so cruel as to cover the entire Earth with vegetation, and have it live in constant torture, as it is eaten continuously. Not even animals suffer constantly like that.

Taking the logic of what we do in 2D is inherently what we should do in 3D can backfire on you pretty quickly.

Agreed. But, at the very least, we shouldn't go backwards. We should do better in 3D than in 2D. Going from vegetarian to meat-eater is going backwards. (in my opinion of course.)

Basing this argument on Ra, it's clear that an entity doesn't become "individualized" until it graduates to 3D.

I strongly disagree. Self-awareness is the prerequisite for graduation, not something entities attain after graduation.

No matter what, a 2D soul returns to the group consciousness after incarnation.

"No matter what"? Why are you so sure about that?

Have you never had a cat or dog? Surely you noticed that they have personalities? Surely your goats have personalities? How could this unique soul, this personality, be totally dissolved into the group soul?

I'm not buying your argument here, a plant is a 2D entity, and goat is a 2D entity, neither have reached individuation. If I have two plants of the same nature standing next to each other, and two similar goats, I can kill one plant and it's gone, the other remains. I can kill one goat and it's gone, the other remains.

Do you see no difference in the 2 goats?

Either way, the soul returns to group consciousness. So why is the pain of death worse on animal group consciousness and not plant group consciousness? We return to the argument of plants being "designed" for us to eat.

No, we're past that now, because you have introduced a new element. You have uncovered a core difference in our views. I am quite stunned, actually, to discover that you don't view animals as having individual souls. This is the crux of the disagreement.

The animals don't have to suffer!

Now that I understand that you don't see a difference between 2 goats, I can now see why you don't consider the killing of the goat to be significant, as long as suffering is removed. Whereas, I see the 2 goats as 2 unique entities, whose lives are being cut short.

Effort? I spend much, much (MUCH) more time in my garden trying to grow sustainable, responsible, organic vegetables to feed people. As I've stated before, I slaughter hundreds, THOUSANDS more 2D beings in my garden then from my herd.

We've already covered that ground.

What sort of effort does it take to responsibly raise and non-violently kill a goat? It's easier than being violent. And it takes much less effort than it does to take care of my garden!

You've missed the point. I wasn't referring to net time spent; I was referring to the educational process, the advertising, the marketing, etc. which, in my opinion, could be better spent educating people about alternatives to eating animals. Instead, their belief that they need to eat animals is being perpetuated.

The horrendous meat industry conditions were a result of corporate thinking. It's easier to get rich treating animals bad. It's also much easier to get rich growing crops irresponsibly. It's much easier to get rich doing ANYTHING irresponsibly.

I agree with you here!

Oooooh Monica, you KNOW I do what I do because of the factory farm animals. People are becoming educated and want responsibly, humanely raised meat. True story, in the past week I've had two vegetarians buy goat meat from me because they simply stopped eating animals because of inhumane animal treatment. Now they know how to find farms which treat their animals humanely, and are ready to start eating meat again. I'm happy people are getting educated about the state of the meat industry as well as the availability of humane meat.

I see that differently. I am sad to hear those former vegetarians went back to eating animals.

Incorrect, the inhumane meat industry is dying because of the efforts. Farmers' Markets are exploding, and almost every single customer that buys meat, eggs, or vegetables from me asks me plenty of questions about how it was raised and processed. We have visitors to the farm that want to know about where their food comes from. There's a movement to become more conscientious about where your food comes from, for vegetables AND meat.

As I've stated before, I commend you for your service and see it as part of the continuum. Please don't take any of my opinions personally. Then the discussion would devolve into defensiveness. I'm interested in discussing concepts, not in judging you or what you do.

Well, the goat's soul travels back to the mass consciousness immediately after death, how is it different for the goat?

I am curious as to what you are basing that belief on.

I don't think it's too far of a stretch to say that when you follow a plant to its roots, that is the entity. Who knows the metaphysical mechanics behind cloning plants, but I don't doubt individual plants are individuals.

I'm confused. Your statements seem contradictory to me. You just said that all plants and animals return to group consciousness, and don't attain individuation until after graduation to 3D. Now you're saying they are individuals? Those statements are contradictory.

We'll have to hammer out this "plants as entities" thing to continue this discussion. I'll put a relevant Ra quote at the end of this post.

Ok

Because it's not "individual?"

No. But I don't have time right now to repeat what what I explained in earlier posts, about my views on this.

An individual carrot is an individual carrot, and when it ceases to have a 2D body to inhabit, its soul goes back to the mass consciousness. Same as a goat.

What is the point of being an individual, if the self-awareness it has attained is lost?

To take the point a little further, let's use the example of the plant which responded to the thought of its leaf being burned. Do you think every plant of the same type all around the world responded in this way when it was threatened? Or was it just that single plant?

I think it was the group consciousness that responded, not the individual plant. We know that bees, ants, and bacteria all behave as a single entity. A species of bacteria has a body spanning the entire planet, all spread out. But it's a single entity. This has been backed by science. I cited examples to back this up earlier in this thread. I see plants the same way, just physically spread out.

Well, as we've discussed, plants don't have pain receptors. Luckily it's just as easy for a small farmer to painlessly kill animals. I could attempt to tortuously kill a plant and it wouldn't do much physical trauma. Definitely trauma of some sort, but no immediate physical suffering, like an animal would experience. But it takes no more effort to insure painless processing.

Aha! And why, do you suppose, plants have no pain receptors?

Can you provide the reference? I will provide the quote where Ra says 2D entities return to mass consciousness until harvested to 3D, if you could provide reference for plants existing in a separate state of 2D individuation than animals.

OK. It will be tomorrow though.

I don't think the concept is as confusing as you're making it seem. Pointing out the idea that there are weeds on the lawn, then yes, it is slaughter. The dandelion was an individual dandelion, and you killed it...slaughtered it. Undoubtedly you killed some bugs...slaughter. The grass specific to the lawn has it's own mechanism for establishing roots and growing. If you were able to pull apart your grass in your back yard without tearing any roots, you'd find that grass grows in "tufts." If you kill a tuft, you kill a grass entity. If you chop off it's blades, it will regrow, and you didn't kill them. If you cut it down to the ground and it regrows, they're not new entities. It would be akin to cutting lettuce in a "cut and come again" style.

Now it is you who is speculating.

I don't think it would be "generally accepted by society" that weeds contain consciousness. People don't always think of eating chicken nuggets as slaughter, does that mean its not? (I'm sure you know that many are oblivious to where their food comes from)

Of course. But I was referring to the standard dictionary definition of a word. We can't just change its meaning to suit us. We can use different words to describe what we mean, but that word is what it is.

If I were Earth, my hair might be 2D beings...but I'm not :p. My single hairs are not instilled with 2D consciousness, plants are.

How do you know that?

But it's still water, right? Regardless of what's in it. Rocks too. They change form, shape, containment, but it's still water/rocks. A beet is no longer a beet after you eat it, but water is still water when it's part of your body (you could find the H2O molecules).

This is a whole 'nother topic and I'm short on time right now.

Well, if you don't differentiate between different levels of 3D life as far as ending its life, why differentiate between levels of 2D life? This may go back to the individuation discussion.

I already answered that. Because sometime in 2D, a spark separates from the 2D group consciousness and becomes individuated, taking on its own karma and beginning its own journey.

20.3 Questioner: So more and more second-density entities are making it into third density. Can you give me an example of a second-density entity coming into the third density in the recent past?

Ra: I am Ra. Perhaps the most common occurrence of second-density graduation during third-density cycle is the so-called pet.

For the animal which is exposed to the individualizing influences of the bond between animal and third-density entity, this individuation causes a sharp rise in the potential of the second density entity so that upon the cessation of physical complex the mind/body complex does not return into the undifferentiated consciousness of that species, if you will.

A consciousness does not experience true self-awareness of individuation until it is harvested to 3rd density. I do not place a line between plant and animal the way you do not place a line between less spiritually aware person and more spiritually aware person.

Please re-read that quote. Individuation causes - this means individuation occurs before cessation of physical complex; ie. while the animal is alive as a 2D entity.