These latest posts in the thread have been respectful and reasonable, which makes me very happy. I had given up on this thread previously due to all the rancor. This kind of meaningful exchange is helpful to us all.
To stay on track, I'd like to invite and encourage everyone to de-personalize the issue. I've found it far more productive to separate the actual person consuming the animal flesh or fruits and vegetables from the action itself. To avoid tempers flaring or anyone feeling like they are personally being attacked, let's try to discuss the dietary choice itself rather than specific people. I've met both staunch vegetarians and staunch consumers of animal flesh who had all sorts of other imbalances and issues unrelated to diet. Our 3D manifestation is by definition imperfect, and it's overly simplistic to point to one particular person or group who follows a given diet and latch on to perceived hypocrisy in their other actions. Physical and economic circumstances play a large role in dietary options. And aside from that, some of us just see more clearly than others in certain areas, but we all have flaws and things to balance. Because we err in some areas does not invalidate our positive qualties nor negate the truth that we have thus far discovered on our Journey. What about the kind soul who donated a kidney to a stranger and yet hates Hispanics? Or the old man who volunteers 7 days a week at the homeless shelter and would give you the shirt on his back but refuses to even talk to his sister because she joined a religion he doesn't agree with? No one particular aspect of our Beings, no one particular choice defines us. We are far, far more complex than that.
In my view, we must make many, many choices while in 3D. No one particular choice determines our relative moral fitness and positive polarity, but rather it's the totality of our choices, large and small, over the course of many lifetimes that determines our positive (or negative) polarization. And thank goodness we don't have to be perfect, thank goodness we can suffer from distortions and still become harvestable!
Some of the kindest, most loving people I know consume animal flesh. And I've met my share of angry and rancorous vegetarians. I know some vegetarians who eat nothing but green salad, potato chips, junkfood, cheese and processed soy products. I also know plenty of meat eaters who get most of their caloric intake from fast food chains and have high amounts of refined sugar, corn starch, and preservatives in their diet. In regards to Hitler, he actually ate almost nothing besides chocolate cake for the last 3 months of his life. None of these approaches to diet is a recipe for good health, but neither are they a reflection on the moral superiority or inferiority of a given person. It's undeniable that there are some vibrant and healthy people who consume animal flesh, such as the Inuit people. But it is also true that there are millions of vegetarians with the same or greater level of health and vitality. Surely we've all met a pale and sickly person following the Atkins diet for too long to balance out our experience with an undernourished and uneducated vegetarian? It is ultimately a matter of nutritional education, good choices, and food availability that leads to good health from a dietary perspective.
The fact that one can exist, successfully, on either the meat or veggie path, reminds me once again of the great gift and duty that is being born as a human. We can CHOOSE. We have a choice. Rather than being beholden to the dictates of our physiology and instinct, such as the lion or the deer, we have the great gift of choice. A deer could never live on meat any more than a lion could live without it, but we can do both. Some animals are monogamous by nature, others mate randomly.... we have a choice in that area as well. This is what 3D life is all about, making choices and polarizing as a result of those choices. And again, we CANNOT oversimplify. Being vegetarian doesn't make you a moral God nor does eating meat make you an immoral Demon. Diet does not determine your ultimate polarity. However, some dietary choices are more STO oriented and others are more STS oriented.
We're here to choose. And right now, we're discussing dietary choices, so let's discuss our options!
Meerie is absolutely right to point out that you cannot exist in 3D without harming some other beings. This is part of our catalyst to work through. How could we reasonably avoid, and how could we possibly condemn ourselves for stepping on an insect and crushing it without intention? We can't, obviously, but the lesson I take from this catalyst is NOT that it's OK to harm other beings. I think our reaction to this reality will help us polarize STO or STS depending on what we decide. What I think we should do is seek to MINIMIZE the suffering we cause wherever we can while learning to accept the realities of life in 3D. The choice to become vegetarian or not is a complex blend of economic, spiritual, and practical considerations that is different for each of us. I cannot say for sure what is right for everyone. But I can share my own choice and reasons for making it. I would love to hear the choices and reasons for that choice from others.
I choose to be vegetarian. Reasons:
* The vast majority of meat produced worldwide is done in large agri-business factory farms. These farms subject animals to ENORMOUS suffering and cruelty and on a truly MASSIVE scale. If you will do some basic research you will easily be able to confirm the reality of modern factory farms. This is a totally different issue than simply consuming animal flesh in my view and one of the biggest differences between the meat that the Inuits consume and the vast majority of meat consumed in Western countries. Even if one chooses to eat animal flesh, I seriously doubt that they would willingly comply with raising these animals in such horrendous conditions if they truly had awareness of what goes into their burgers. But the simple reality is, due to economic reasons and public ignorance, the vast majority of meat available to purchase is raised under truly despicable conditions. If you're going to eat at McDonald's, then I suggest you should know exactly what that really means. Put aside the death issue and do some research and find out how these animals are raised and on what scale. Unless one raises their own animals or only purchases from small, highly ethical sources, then one is participating in a vast cycle of cruelty and exploitation of which the actual slaughter is only a tiny part. The huge demand for the animal flesh with no concern for how those animals are raised is the reason for this problem, this massive machine of suffering. Eating meat in the modern era in the West is a totally different proposition than it was in the past due to agri-business. It is a good thing to eat your food with respectful gratitude and bless the sacrifice, but doing that doesn't absolve you of responsibility for participation in a needless cycle of torture and suffering. The demand for cheap meat without concern for how the animals are treated is created by the consumer. Again, I'm referring to what happens before the moment of slaughter. Some people, conscious of the reality of factory farming, seek out meat from relatively ethical sources. I do feel this is superior than just buying whatever is available at the supermarket or average restaurant. It would be a great thing if all animals raised for meat were treated well! However, after intensely pondering the issue, I decided that for ME, in my particular situation and with my own understanding of life, that abstaining from meat altogether is the best choice, the one that is most respectful of other life on this planet. I ultimately concluded that by consuming the animals, even if they were treated and slaughtered humanely, I was still violating their rights.
* I am not convinced that plants feel pain simply based on what my own 5 senses have observed. Animals cry out and run away when slaughtered. Plants do not give us any indication of distress when being harvested. We are here in 3D to make choices and have been given basic biofeedback mechanisms to interpret data from our environment. If plants had the same level of sentience and capacity to feel pain as animals, then I believe we would have been given the tools to recognize this directly. As Monica rightly pointed out, plants can root from cuttings and can easily deal with lost branches and leaves. You'd be hard pressed to find an animal that can easily survive, let alone thrive, after losing random body parts, but yet this is common in the plant world. I recognize there is a fundamentally different physiology to plants. Pain receptors in ANIMALS make great sense because they are mobile. When we touch fire, we get burned and quickly move away from it. When we feel cold, we add clothing. Our pain receptors tell this moving body absolutely valuable information. With plants, there would be no sense in having pain receptors because the plant cannot move to any significant degree. They cannot control their environment by moving about it beyond very slight adjustments, so what value would a pain receptor be to a plant? Would the Infinite Creator or the local Logos have created beings with the capacity to feel pain but no way to communicate it to other beings creating that pain and no way to get away from it either? To me, that idea is absurd. But even that issue aside, I recognize that we do end the incarnation of some plants, but unlike the meat industry the worst most crops are subjected to is chemical pesticides. They still spend most of their normal lifespan under the sunshine, with the wind and rain and under conditions that are not traumatic. Their life is heavenly compared to the shocking conditions of most factory farm animals. Of course all the chemicals and GMO foods need to go, but it's just not quite analogous to what happens with meat animals. So again, an opportunity to minimize suffering is there by opting out of the meat system. This might not be possible for everyone in all circumstances, and I do not judge them. However, as we shift into 4D+ I think it's time for us to let go of activities that exploit other beings. The very hallmark of STS behavior is to use other beings for our own gain, in violation of their rights, without care for them. And even "ethical" sources didn't ultimately satisfy my concerns. Rather than being driven only by my tastebuds or delusions that I need meat to survive, I've chosen what I believe to be the simplest and most sensible 4D solution to the problem for myself and the environment I find myself in -- and that is to adopt a plant based diet with a high level of fruits.
* Fruit bearing plants have evolved to have a symbiotic relationship with animals. The fruit is attractive to be eaten, the human or animal eats the fruit and spits out or passes the seeds out through the digestive tract, helping that plant spread their genetics far and wide. The fruit-bearing plant is also still alive at the end of of this process and I suspect that fruit more than anything else should comprise the bulk of the human diet, especially when one takes into consideration the BULK of the diet of our closest physical cousins, the monkeys.
* We have a huge human population on this planet and relatively limited resources. And yet there IS enough for everyone if we start thinking 4D! It is a basic fact that far less resources are required to grow plant food for human beings than raise animals. If we would let go of our feelings of separation and learn to see all people as our brothers and sisters right now, then we could immediately end hunger worldwide, RIGHT NOW with technology we already have. But the only way that is possible and practical is by the use of plant-based food. Not only that, but animal factory farms are hugely damaging to the environment and will always be so when animals are raised on such a massive scale, whereas plant-based agriculture can be done on huge scale without harming the earth.
* I feel much much better without consuming animal flesh. About 2 weeks after I stopped, I felt as if I had gotten over a sickness I didn't even know I had. I felt vibrant, vital, and alive. My body absolutely responded to the new diet in a very positive fashion. And since going vegetarian I rarely suffer from any sort of sickness, I haven't even had even a common cold for years.
* I view animals as our spiritual younger brothers and sisters.
* I have always gotten along with animals, but since becoming vegetarian (for the last 13 years), I have a deeper connection with the animal world, and animals of all sorts, but especially wild ones, react to me with far far less fear than when I still consumed animal flesh. Coincidence? Maybe, but it doesn't feel that way to me.
Now, I do not presume to know what's right for everyone. I cannot judge what lessons are to be learned by native cultures that subsist on primarily animal flesh. How can I 100% know for sure that eating plants is better than someone trying to eat meat only from "ethical" sources? Clearly meat eating in the modern age is different than meat eating in the past. Clearly there is a difference between an isolated native culture in a very cold climate and one living in the tropics. It's not a simple question! And yet, after so much thought, so much study, meditation, and prayer on the issue, my convictions have crystalized. I made my choice using my best discernment. I feel strongly about vegetarianism, that it is absolutely the best choice for me and the ideal choice for most of the planet as we shift into 4D. However, I try to remain humble and remember that this choice is one we ALL must make individually, and as important as this choice is -- it is NOT what determines our ultimate polarization or moral fitness. It is important for us to remember that we are all still growing, that none of us has all the answers. I think abstaining from meat IS a superior dietary choice, that's my opinion. There are plenty who don't agree with that opinion, and that's just fine. I will continue to walk my path and stay as true to my ideals as I can while within this incarnation. I choose to respect all other beings, even those who don't agree with me about diet. Discussions like this one are helpful because we can respectfully share our OPINIONS and RELATIVE UNDERSTANDINGS on this topic with one another. Let's try not to lose sight of what we're doing -- sharing ideas collectively rather than attacking or defending ourselves.
If anyone else would like to share their choice and their reasons, I'd love to hear them.
Love to all
To stay on track, I'd like to invite and encourage everyone to de-personalize the issue. I've found it far more productive to separate the actual person consuming the animal flesh or fruits and vegetables from the action itself. To avoid tempers flaring or anyone feeling like they are personally being attacked, let's try to discuss the dietary choice itself rather than specific people. I've met both staunch vegetarians and staunch consumers of animal flesh who had all sorts of other imbalances and issues unrelated to diet. Our 3D manifestation is by definition imperfect, and it's overly simplistic to point to one particular person or group who follows a given diet and latch on to perceived hypocrisy in their other actions. Physical and economic circumstances play a large role in dietary options. And aside from that, some of us just see more clearly than others in certain areas, but we all have flaws and things to balance. Because we err in some areas does not invalidate our positive qualties nor negate the truth that we have thus far discovered on our Journey. What about the kind soul who donated a kidney to a stranger and yet hates Hispanics? Or the old man who volunteers 7 days a week at the homeless shelter and would give you the shirt on his back but refuses to even talk to his sister because she joined a religion he doesn't agree with? No one particular aspect of our Beings, no one particular choice defines us. We are far, far more complex than that.
In my view, we must make many, many choices while in 3D. No one particular choice determines our relative moral fitness and positive polarity, but rather it's the totality of our choices, large and small, over the course of many lifetimes that determines our positive (or negative) polarization. And thank goodness we don't have to be perfect, thank goodness we can suffer from distortions and still become harvestable!
Some of the kindest, most loving people I know consume animal flesh. And I've met my share of angry and rancorous vegetarians. I know some vegetarians who eat nothing but green salad, potato chips, junkfood, cheese and processed soy products. I also know plenty of meat eaters who get most of their caloric intake from fast food chains and have high amounts of refined sugar, corn starch, and preservatives in their diet. In regards to Hitler, he actually ate almost nothing besides chocolate cake for the last 3 months of his life. None of these approaches to diet is a recipe for good health, but neither are they a reflection on the moral superiority or inferiority of a given person. It's undeniable that there are some vibrant and healthy people who consume animal flesh, such as the Inuit people. But it is also true that there are millions of vegetarians with the same or greater level of health and vitality. Surely we've all met a pale and sickly person following the Atkins diet for too long to balance out our experience with an undernourished and uneducated vegetarian? It is ultimately a matter of nutritional education, good choices, and food availability that leads to good health from a dietary perspective.
The fact that one can exist, successfully, on either the meat or veggie path, reminds me once again of the great gift and duty that is being born as a human. We can CHOOSE. We have a choice. Rather than being beholden to the dictates of our physiology and instinct, such as the lion or the deer, we have the great gift of choice. A deer could never live on meat any more than a lion could live without it, but we can do both. Some animals are monogamous by nature, others mate randomly.... we have a choice in that area as well. This is what 3D life is all about, making choices and polarizing as a result of those choices. And again, we CANNOT oversimplify. Being vegetarian doesn't make you a moral God nor does eating meat make you an immoral Demon. Diet does not determine your ultimate polarity. However, some dietary choices are more STO oriented and others are more STS oriented.
We're here to choose. And right now, we're discussing dietary choices, so let's discuss our options!
Meerie is absolutely right to point out that you cannot exist in 3D without harming some other beings. This is part of our catalyst to work through. How could we reasonably avoid, and how could we possibly condemn ourselves for stepping on an insect and crushing it without intention? We can't, obviously, but the lesson I take from this catalyst is NOT that it's OK to harm other beings. I think our reaction to this reality will help us polarize STO or STS depending on what we decide. What I think we should do is seek to MINIMIZE the suffering we cause wherever we can while learning to accept the realities of life in 3D. The choice to become vegetarian or not is a complex blend of economic, spiritual, and practical considerations that is different for each of us. I cannot say for sure what is right for everyone. But I can share my own choice and reasons for making it. I would love to hear the choices and reasons for that choice from others.
I choose to be vegetarian. Reasons:
* The vast majority of meat produced worldwide is done in large agri-business factory farms. These farms subject animals to ENORMOUS suffering and cruelty and on a truly MASSIVE scale. If you will do some basic research you will easily be able to confirm the reality of modern factory farms. This is a totally different issue than simply consuming animal flesh in my view and one of the biggest differences between the meat that the Inuits consume and the vast majority of meat consumed in Western countries. Even if one chooses to eat animal flesh, I seriously doubt that they would willingly comply with raising these animals in such horrendous conditions if they truly had awareness of what goes into their burgers. But the simple reality is, due to economic reasons and public ignorance, the vast majority of meat available to purchase is raised under truly despicable conditions. If you're going to eat at McDonald's, then I suggest you should know exactly what that really means. Put aside the death issue and do some research and find out how these animals are raised and on what scale. Unless one raises their own animals or only purchases from small, highly ethical sources, then one is participating in a vast cycle of cruelty and exploitation of which the actual slaughter is only a tiny part. The huge demand for the animal flesh with no concern for how those animals are raised is the reason for this problem, this massive machine of suffering. Eating meat in the modern era in the West is a totally different proposition than it was in the past due to agri-business. It is a good thing to eat your food with respectful gratitude and bless the sacrifice, but doing that doesn't absolve you of responsibility for participation in a needless cycle of torture and suffering. The demand for cheap meat without concern for how the animals are treated is created by the consumer. Again, I'm referring to what happens before the moment of slaughter. Some people, conscious of the reality of factory farming, seek out meat from relatively ethical sources. I do feel this is superior than just buying whatever is available at the supermarket or average restaurant. It would be a great thing if all animals raised for meat were treated well! However, after intensely pondering the issue, I decided that for ME, in my particular situation and with my own understanding of life, that abstaining from meat altogether is the best choice, the one that is most respectful of other life on this planet. I ultimately concluded that by consuming the animals, even if they were treated and slaughtered humanely, I was still violating their rights.
* I am not convinced that plants feel pain simply based on what my own 5 senses have observed. Animals cry out and run away when slaughtered. Plants do not give us any indication of distress when being harvested. We are here in 3D to make choices and have been given basic biofeedback mechanisms to interpret data from our environment. If plants had the same level of sentience and capacity to feel pain as animals, then I believe we would have been given the tools to recognize this directly. As Monica rightly pointed out, plants can root from cuttings and can easily deal with lost branches and leaves. You'd be hard pressed to find an animal that can easily survive, let alone thrive, after losing random body parts, but yet this is common in the plant world. I recognize there is a fundamentally different physiology to plants. Pain receptors in ANIMALS make great sense because they are mobile. When we touch fire, we get burned and quickly move away from it. When we feel cold, we add clothing. Our pain receptors tell this moving body absolutely valuable information. With plants, there would be no sense in having pain receptors because the plant cannot move to any significant degree. They cannot control their environment by moving about it beyond very slight adjustments, so what value would a pain receptor be to a plant? Would the Infinite Creator or the local Logos have created beings with the capacity to feel pain but no way to communicate it to other beings creating that pain and no way to get away from it either? To me, that idea is absurd. But even that issue aside, I recognize that we do end the incarnation of some plants, but unlike the meat industry the worst most crops are subjected to is chemical pesticides. They still spend most of their normal lifespan under the sunshine, with the wind and rain and under conditions that are not traumatic. Their life is heavenly compared to the shocking conditions of most factory farm animals. Of course all the chemicals and GMO foods need to go, but it's just not quite analogous to what happens with meat animals. So again, an opportunity to minimize suffering is there by opting out of the meat system. This might not be possible for everyone in all circumstances, and I do not judge them. However, as we shift into 4D+ I think it's time for us to let go of activities that exploit other beings. The very hallmark of STS behavior is to use other beings for our own gain, in violation of their rights, without care for them. And even "ethical" sources didn't ultimately satisfy my concerns. Rather than being driven only by my tastebuds or delusions that I need meat to survive, I've chosen what I believe to be the simplest and most sensible 4D solution to the problem for myself and the environment I find myself in -- and that is to adopt a plant based diet with a high level of fruits.
* Fruit bearing plants have evolved to have a symbiotic relationship with animals. The fruit is attractive to be eaten, the human or animal eats the fruit and spits out or passes the seeds out through the digestive tract, helping that plant spread their genetics far and wide. The fruit-bearing plant is also still alive at the end of of this process and I suspect that fruit more than anything else should comprise the bulk of the human diet, especially when one takes into consideration the BULK of the diet of our closest physical cousins, the monkeys.
* We have a huge human population on this planet and relatively limited resources. And yet there IS enough for everyone if we start thinking 4D! It is a basic fact that far less resources are required to grow plant food for human beings than raise animals. If we would let go of our feelings of separation and learn to see all people as our brothers and sisters right now, then we could immediately end hunger worldwide, RIGHT NOW with technology we already have. But the only way that is possible and practical is by the use of plant-based food. Not only that, but animal factory farms are hugely damaging to the environment and will always be so when animals are raised on such a massive scale, whereas plant-based agriculture can be done on huge scale without harming the earth.
* I feel much much better without consuming animal flesh. About 2 weeks after I stopped, I felt as if I had gotten over a sickness I didn't even know I had. I felt vibrant, vital, and alive. My body absolutely responded to the new diet in a very positive fashion. And since going vegetarian I rarely suffer from any sort of sickness, I haven't even had even a common cold for years.
* I view animals as our spiritual younger brothers and sisters.
* I have always gotten along with animals, but since becoming vegetarian (for the last 13 years), I have a deeper connection with the animal world, and animals of all sorts, but especially wild ones, react to me with far far less fear than when I still consumed animal flesh. Coincidence? Maybe, but it doesn't feel that way to me.
Now, I do not presume to know what's right for everyone. I cannot judge what lessons are to be learned by native cultures that subsist on primarily animal flesh. How can I 100% know for sure that eating plants is better than someone trying to eat meat only from "ethical" sources? Clearly meat eating in the modern age is different than meat eating in the past. Clearly there is a difference between an isolated native culture in a very cold climate and one living in the tropics. It's not a simple question! And yet, after so much thought, so much study, meditation, and prayer on the issue, my convictions have crystalized. I made my choice using my best discernment. I feel strongly about vegetarianism, that it is absolutely the best choice for me and the ideal choice for most of the planet as we shift into 4D. However, I try to remain humble and remember that this choice is one we ALL must make individually, and as important as this choice is -- it is NOT what determines our ultimate polarization or moral fitness. It is important for us to remember that we are all still growing, that none of us has all the answers. I think abstaining from meat IS a superior dietary choice, that's my opinion. There are plenty who don't agree with that opinion, and that's just fine. I will continue to walk my path and stay as true to my ideals as I can while within this incarnation. I choose to respect all other beings, even those who don't agree with me about diet. Discussions like this one are helpful because we can respectfully share our OPINIONS and RELATIVE UNDERSTANDINGS on this topic with one another. Let's try not to lose sight of what we're doing -- sharing ideas collectively rather than attacking or defending ourselves.
If anyone else would like to share their choice and their reasons, I'd love to hear them.
Love to all