(10-08-2010, 02:54 AM)Bring4th_Monica Wrote:(10-07-2010, 07:26 PM)unity100 Wrote: the valuation of goods and services is a different factor here. but there is no need to incorporate it.
But it does make a difference. The people Mr. Y sold his herbal formula to, lived instead of died. That is an energetic difference.
Why not? Why leave it out? Why focus on just the physical substance?
The knowledge of how to use the herbal formula, + the healing it produced, are valuable to the person with the disease. Not just valuable, but priceless. That is an energy exchange. Why leave it out of the equation? Why focus only on mechanics?
I invite you to consider that the exchange is not just physical, and that there are many more factors in the equation. What may appear to be a negative energy flow might not be, once you take all the factors into consideration.
we are talking about the end result, evaluated condition.
because, evaluation is a long process, especially in a supposedly 'free' market which is also fragmented by countries and other various divisions, detailed evaluation of some price is extremely detailed.
and, the cost i have been considering, includes every kind of cost regarding to the physical manifestation of the concept, including overheads, depreciation this, that.
if we get into energy business, it becomes more complex, however against the concept of profit -> by giving health to 1 million entities, the entity will have enabled 1 million entities to manifest fully, and these entities would energize the planet with their activity and energy, and it would affect everything in the end, including, the general energy situation of the entity producing that treatment. that is, not even counting the positive energy that will manifest towards that entity, in the form of gratitude.
if we count these in, that entity would have taken not only the light, wisdom side of the aspect, the mechanic, but also will have received these. so, it will benefit even further, not even offsetting the negative flow in regard to mechanic.
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if you bring in the 'knowledge of the formula' is priceless concept, it becomes even worse :
no knowledge belongs to noone. no invention is actually 'invented'. the simplest invention, if we look at the 200 year wanderer wave, happens to be either things wanderers long planned before incarnation, and in incarnation, and created together with other entities, getting the information to create these things either from their societal complex, or other disincarnate sources. if, the entity is not a wanderer, the inspiration to do something is acquired through similar means.
this is mentioned in regard to various inventions or inventors or wanderers in Ra text, like 'this entity got its information from confederate sources'.
so, who's peddling the information to who ? who's selling whose information, to whom ?
this entire civilization, all civilizations that have come and passed, are results of collective works of entities. any invention or idea brought, are based and built on others'.
this is totally leaving out the fact that, information is not invented, or discovered, but merely becomes revealed/available, through allowance of various spiritual mechanics and subconscious, which belongs to any given level of tree of mind. may be societal, may be a group, may be totality, may be universe.
i havent entered these parts, because they are detailed subjects in themselves. and with that kind of logic, one could easily purport 'but who emitted the first proton' and defend any kind of extreme negativity, and argue for it.
this is a concept relating to light/wisdom, or mind, or mental. it is a negative flow. EVEN if, the overall result in the end, due to whatever reason, ends up being positive, due to people not dying, this that, this particular act will still be a negative flow, and will do its effect in time/space accordingly.
it is not about whether it can be offset, or in the end its a good thing overall or not. what im saying is, regardless of the end result, a negative flow, is a negative flow. it cant be changed, because, it is the nature of flows.
Quote:Mr. Y might take more money than the actual cost of his herbal formulas, but the actual value of his formulas might be much greater than the cost of the ingredients. How do we put a value on life? We can't. It is considered priceless. Thus, it could be argued that Mr. Y gave far more than he took, because he gave the gift of healing and life, in exchange for mere pennies.
again, we are calculating the total cost of all the production, delivery, everything, and then saying that if there is excess it is a negative flow.
actually, considering the time/space sensitivity, even the intent of making a profit, would affect a situation similarly, to the extent of the intent.
Quote:Ah, that is exactly my point! What if you did your analysis at the end of the week, or the end of the month or year or lifetime, instead of the end of the day?
The point at which you do your measuring can make the difference. Flow implies the passage of time. Time may be the missing factor in the equation!
i cant even understand the difference. at the end of any given period, if one took more than what was given, it will be a negative flow. doesnt matter when you calculate. the situation at the time of calculation, will be valid.
Quote:Those kids' smiles constitute energy. Energy flows. What is offsetting but an energy flow? If something is offset, that means it is counterbalanced.
it still doesnt matter. like in the gravity example, the kid's smiles may be offsetting the flow of red energy towards the entity (since finance/money is generally charged with red energy in our society, or, you can place in whatever energy it becomes an agent for, or energies), but, it still wont change the fact that the entity, whenever does profit, creates an energy flow in EXCESS of what it is giving out, towards itself.
'a thousand kids' smiles have put me in the positive karmically and energetically !' -> yes, but the entity was, and still will be creating a negative energy flow towards itself with profiting.
Quote:Why is it just mechanic?
because, we are discussing the mechanic side of things. because, even if a billion kids' smiles are created by selling some medicine, the mechanics of things, when taken into global scale, synergistically, changes the overal situation into what we have in front of us in the end.
not every profit's negative connotations and energy flow is offset by a thousand kids' smiles.
Quote:But with more time, it can travel farther.
i dont even see the relevance ?
given time or not, the light still will be traveling in a straight line. no emotion, act, argument can change the fact that, light travels in a straight line. 'my light traveled even further !' -> yes, but it still traveled in a straight line UNLESS you have exerted various influences and forced it to follow a non straight path. even in that case, light was still traveling, forcing its way in a straight line. that is the nature of a mechanic.
Quote:Takes what? Gives what? Why are there rules about what is counted? Why may only physical material objects and money be counted?
If I spend an hour on the phone counseling my best friend, and at the end of the conversation she feels better, isn't that an energy flow? Knowledge and feelings were shared. Ideas were offered. Emotions expressed and healed. That's energy.
again, offsetting does not change the mechanics of an act. you may have charged your friend for your time and your phone #, even for your calories lost, even for the depreciation or opportunity cost, even for lost vibrations AND still your friend's happiness may offset that.
but, it still wouldnt change the fact that, if you have charged your friend more than you spent, you have made a profit, and created a negative flow, first systematically, mechanically, in concerns of light/wisdom, and then in regard to whatever energy that that medium (money) was charged with and carrying.
Quote:This is the crux of the matter. I am curious why you believe their character cannot be changed. Can you share with us why you believe that? Is this based on a philosophy, book, your own experience, your own logical conclusions, or what?
why their character cant be changed ?
you cannot change the character of a mechanic. once a rule, a mechanic is created, it acts always accordingly. ie, the laws of nature governing manifestation, spirituality, energy flows, whatever you can count, ie, the means and ways this particular existence was set with for its manifestation to happen. these are mechanics. wisdom side of things.
you cant change their nature. if you were able to change them, you would just be changing them into a different mechanic, yet, the mechanic you have created would STILL act the same.
moreover, we are talking way in a higher level here, we are talking about very simple concepts. like, taking more than giving is a negative flow. it can be said that this is beyond the mechanics of this particular octave, universe even, its an existential concept. you cant change the nature of this. whenever a focus takes on more than it gives out for any kind of thing, there will be a negative flow in regard to that thing, for that focus.
Quote:Why did the Wanderers incarnate? Why did they (we) try to change the system if it can't be changed?
there is a word mixup here. with 'system' in that context, i meant the political, social system of the planet. not, 'system' as in mechanics of anything, laws of nature, light, spirituality etc.
the wanderers' unwisdom was that, they attempted to bring a positive environment over a negative ruleset. it only went as far as what we see today.
Quote:How do we do that? How do we change the inherent mechanics of the system?
we need to change the system itself obviously. if mechanics of a system is changed, its no longer the same system.
all that is being discussed here, inequal distribution of results of work, ownership of entities over means of generating results, etc etc, are all properties of the system.
Quote:The key here is in the end. At what point is it the end?
I agree with your concept but, respectfully, I believe there is missing piece in your equation, because the factor of time is not taken into account.
If more time is allowed, the balance of energy might change or even reverse. What started out negative might end up positive.
yes, and with that logic, you can be an infinitely ruthless despot the universe has ever seen, torment every existing focus of consciousness and even destroy them, and then come up at point infinity and say that, 'see, it all balances in the end'.
yes it definitely does. however, how one comes to that infinite balance point, also matters.
i have taken the example and exaggerated it, however, i think my meaning is clear.
balance always happens in the ultimate end. but, how we come to that point also matters.
Questioner Wrote:The only problem with this is, according to you, unity100, this is at the cost of my soul.
Please continue to explain to me how I will go to hell for making this profit. Prevent that tragedy. Correct my awesome sin of wanting to use the resources available to me to serve my fellow man, get paid more than the cost of materials, get rewarded for my courage and ingenuity, and put the money into a better life for someone I seek to serve with love.
Go ahead, tell me how I should watch their pain never end, because profit is wrong.
i have already guessed that, this was more related to personal situation of an individual in the middle of a negative society, and what s/he can do in it, rather than a conceptual, philosophical argument with the way things are.
we are all in that situation, living in a negative society, trying to act positive. had we been sent into a world that was in war all the time, we would have to also fight and kill other people, in order just to survive ourselves to perform whatever objective we were there for.
we would have to fight, and kill, and succeed in the end, and even gain positive karma instead of losing or gaining negative, according to the end results of the act at the end of incarnation.
but, these would not change the fact that, killing another entity, is something undesirable, and should be avoided. how we feel about this, would not change the situation. even if we save 1 million people by killing a dictator, the act of killing would still happen, and and, whatever wisdom/emotional results associated with that act, would still come into being. depending on entity, these may have little effect on him/her, or, always haunt his/her dreams. depending on results, the entity may gain endless positive karma, or may not. but, the act of killing would still have happened and act as it is.
wisdom is, knowing this fine detail, and navigating one's way with it.
let us bring the 200 year wanderer wave into this, and make an example over them. i will give a long example and then using it bring the matter directly onto your situation, mine, and probably many others' :
these entities came to this world, trying to give inventions to mankind and systems, so that man could have more time to actually think about things. these entities, maybe thought that their intent, what they are giving, could change the world, or change its nature. or, they just accepted the world as it is, and thought that, they could give these things, and then it would be still alright. after all intent was positive, end results would probably be positive, karmically good results would be created. so basically, concepts underlying in the system and deemed useful, or harmless, or a nature of this society, were not challenged and changed. instead, things were built on them.
but, mechanic is a mechanic. it never changes the way it acts, regardless of intent, emotion, will, karma, end results, this and that. mechanics are what they are. they always act as they are.
so, the inherent negative concepts at the bottom of this society system kept on acting as they were. first 150 years, there have come much betterment compared to before. but in the last 100 years, the system, which was constantly applying the force to the mix in its own direction, have changed things, into what we see today. so much that, the health level of an 18th century peasant, is probably now higher in comparison than the health level of an upper middle class individual in general, despite the former was probably working for much less, and had even more time (or mental/spiritual energy) to consider anything consciously.
and the rate we are going is for the worse. so basically not only we are in a worse condition overall than the start of this effort, but we are going even worse.
what was the problem ? the problem was ignoring the base mechanics and their undiscriminating nature. nomatter how one approaches a mechanic, mechanic still acts as it is. there is no changing that. if it is changed, it becomes a different mechanic. it may be offset through OTHER means, its effects lessened or totally offset. but, the effect would still be there. just like how the initial part of the 200 year period was better than how it was before.
what should have been done ? first, realization and understanding of the nature of the mechanics, system, ie 'the dance' that was happening in the given society, sphere, system should have been undertaken. then, the plan to accomplish a given goal, should be built with this realization.
in the case of 200 year old wave, with this realization, changing the basic political and economic system of the world in base, rather than giving inventions, would have been much more fruitful, for example. by changing various aspects of the fundamentals, there could be much more time and freedom provided to entities, since they would work less for survival, if they had more of what they produced. this way, the destructive results of an unready 3d planet being given extreme technology compared to their awareness would also be avoided entirely. if you remember, we have more than 1500 nukes already active still on this planet, most of which with multiple independent warheads that can destroy 6 to 12 cities in one go. and two cities were already blown away. this, is not counting the tesla vehicles, ufos that some countries have. this is not counting the environmental destruction to this planet this technology level and lack of awareness has caused. this is not counting the new illnesses, conditions that are result of increasing pace of life or any similar side results.
in short, if one ignores the wisdom side of things, regardless of intent, will, emotion, the results of an attempted service may turn out worse than before a service was rendered.
if, emotion is the power behind doing things, the driving force, wisdom is the WAY to do things. either lacking, results become either crooked, or, there may be no result at all.
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how it boils down to our own situation ?
we are incarnated on this planet, however we are. 3d entities, or wanderers, or 3d entities who are conscious of some things.
and, according to the needs of an incarnation, and the societal implications of it, we have to oblige with various realities of the incarnation to keep it continuing.
there may be disparage in between our nature in our native density, or place, or planet, or whatever, and the necessities of this planet. even with the places our mind and soul can reach, and this planet. some disparage may be so high that, entities who would find eating a physical foodstuff disgusting and unbearable may be having to eat physical foodstuffs on this planet, and subconsciously suffering from its results without knowing why.
these entities will burden this weight. it doesnt matter whether they are here to serve, their intent, their deeds, their actions, their karma. the disparage in between their own nature and the nature of life here, will continually take its toll, even if some other entity, or concept stands in between and totally offsets any kind of results from manifesting, or even from being noticeable.
it is in the price of living on this planet. the entity, if in a relevant level of awareness and seeking, should be aware of its situation, what is happening, why is it happening, for as much as s/he can, and act accordingly.
the example was given from something stemming from the entity's own nature. however, it applies to everything.
so, directly, since you are living in a negative societal construct, and have obligations, you will have to make profit, if your situation dictates you to so. your intent, your karma, your will, your actions will not change the fact that this is a mechanic as such, and it will keep acting as such. the wisdom and responsibility in regard to one's own soul is, knowing what things are, how they act, and minimizing the impact of them with its actions.
first of all, accepting, rationalizing and internalizing the concept of profit, because you have to do it, would become a burden for your own soul. that is of course, unless you intend a negative path. then it may become a necessity, for a while.
else, you need to accept this thing as it is, accept it as a burden, and shoulder it as it is. you should not gratify, attempt to change its nature, exonerate, beautify it or anything like that. it is what it is. and it should be avoided as much as possible, if one intends to manifest as pure as possible. the ideal rule is this.
this could be mitigated with numerous other factors. the entity's service may involve setting up a particular situation, and this may involve creating a corporation, doing profit, this and that. however, this wouldnt change the fact that profit, is a negative flow in nature, and if it is not compatible with the path one is taking at a particular time, it is something to be avoided, like similar things. the specific plans that would involve setting up a corporation and doing something with it could be debatable of course, in the light of the effects of the 200 year wanderer wave. but, if it is a plan brought to this planet in incarnation, it is a plan ... not much to do about such a situation. unless the entity is highly aware, realizes the situation, poses the issue to its spiritual circle and decides to arrange something else with its society complex/guides/higher self, and changes his/her life plan. (and maybe entire reality s/he is in, accompanying it).
your situation seems to be one set up for wisdom. there is someone you cant leave be, for service, you need to acquire resources to be able to continue that service, and render the service.
but, during the process, you need to be wise, and minimize any kind of undesirable physical and spiritual side effects of all these acts, as much as you can. for that, you need to be aware and wise, you should not exonerate, beautify, internalize and ignore anything. but instead should be aware of them, and undertake their burden as much as needed, but not more, according to your own particular view and desire of purity and your particular path. if, you find any way to perform what you aim without shouldering a negative burden, you should consider attempting it, and bring it up with your inner resources, spiritual circle. these all depend on your own path of fate of course.
however, if you are at the level of being aware of something, and you become aware of that thing and its nature, you should be aware of it, nomatter what. it is what it is. things are what they are. having the knowledge of things and dance, and acting accordingly is the way of wisdom. if one is approaching balance from love point, this would be needed.
accepting something as it is would not mean being oblivious to its nature.