Why I am not a vegan

[Monica]

Thank you for your respectful comments.  

with respect Monica, your summary of the points made in that article  

(http://theconversation.com/ordering-the-...hands-4659)

isn't correct

it's primarily about massive crops grown for human consumption... (the analysis does include animal stock food as well - though in Australia there is more animal grazing of grasslands than intensive farming - so the main focus of the article is on plant production for HUMANS)

I was referring to food production worldwide, which overwhelmingly is to feed livestock. I have read that article before and I am aware that they were focusing on food for humans, with only cursory lip service to food for livestock, because, apparently, there are more free-ranging animals in Australia. Even so, the article seems to be an attempt to justify meat-eating by pointing out problems with the farming of plants for food.

I have read comprehensive analyses of that particular articles, but to be honest, I don't remember all the points offhand. I'll see if I can dig it up for you.

For now, I will say that the argument in favor of eating animals, by arguing that animals are also killed in harvesting plants, holds no weight, because a huge percentage of plants are harvested in order to feed livestock. This is still a true statement, worldwide, though maybe less so in Australia.

Nevertheless, the solution isn't to just eat animals! The solution is to improve agriculture, to reduce all animal suffering, including rodents.

you make many points I agree with but I feel the complexity of our food situation(s) on Earth are so diverse (and mostly f#cked up) that your reply isn't comprehensive enough... (nor is what I'm saying - nor that article either)

I definitely agree with you that it's complex! It would be impossible to address all the complexity in a single post, so I wasn't even trying to do that. Perhaps you aren't aware of this, but I (along with a handful of other vegetarians/vegans) have been engaged in this topic for several years now, to the tune of literally hundreds of posts!

So rather than read a single post, the only way to really grasp the complexity is to read all the existing threads on this topic. I simply don't have the time to repeat all that's already been said, and there's no reason to, since it is all cataloged and documented.

I invite you to read what's already been said:

Bring4th Forums Two > Health & Diet  v > In regards to eating meat

Unfortunately, that thread got locked, so you can't reply to any of those posts. But, here is the continuation of that marathon thread:

Bring4th Forums Two > Health & Diet  v > A Friendly Conversation: Exploring Omnivorous vs. Vegetarian Diet

Post #2 has an index, by topic, of the original thread. If you don't want to slog through the whole thread from beginning to end, you may wish to just jump to the sub-topics you're interested in, by clicking on the links in post #2.

(however, baby mice singing out to their dead mother and then slowly dying themselves... (so I can have vegan oatmeal for breakfast) is a very distressing truth   )
Unfortunately being vegan isn't cruelty free - unless you eat from your own garden or farm only - and control the conditions completely)
and I care about the pain of mice as much as of cows...

I agree! It is impossible to be 100% vegan in this society. Even if you did grow all your own food, there are still insects to deal with. This is why the definition of vegan is to be as responsible as possible, in minimizing harm to animals.

I commend you for caring about baby mice! The solution is to grow our own food as much as possible, so that we're not supporting corporate agriculture, chemical farming, GMOs, and monoculture, all of which cause widespread killing of wildlife, including bees. The solution isn't to just eat animals! That only perpetuates the problem.

but it's a bit concerning that you speak as if you (and others) have a 'whole picture'

because the more I read and research and learn and unlearn.... I see that it's just SO complex...

I don't have the whole picture and it isn't my intention to oversimplify the issue. You will see this if/when you read the many hundreds of comments I have made regarding this issue. If you're going to assess my views, please do so based on the sum total of all those hundreds of posts, rather than a single thread. But I do believe that going vegan is the logical first step.

You mentioned that you care about the baby mice. So do I. But most people on this forum don't even care about pigs, who are smarter than their dogs. So if they don't even care about pigs, what hope is there for them to care about baby mice?

So I start with pigs...showing them that pigs are smarter than dogs...pigs can solve puzzles just like human toddlers.

Then I show them how chickens purr. Did you know that chickens purr?

...or I might show them how cows mourn the loss of their babies.

Nearly all those efforts have been in vain, as far as I can tell. But the hundreds of comments will be there, so hopefully, occasionally, someone might stumble on those threads and get some value out of them. That's all I can do. It isn't up to me. As you said, this planet is f***** up. All each of us can do is our part, and move on.

Usually, when meat eaters talk about baby mice, it isn't because they care about the baby mice, but because they are trying to catch the vegans in a contradiction.

I do agree that we have to start somewhere and it's with ourselves, our own diet and shopping choices...
but there is no 'one size fits all' solution here...  this issue is SO complex...

Yes, it is complex, which is exactly why we have to start somewhere. Not eating animals is a lot easier to do than growing one's own food. Start there, then as more people go vegan, we can continue to improve. The meat industry is the biggest single destructive component. All the others pale in comparison. You won't find that in the articles written by biased meat-eaters whose objective is to accuse vegans of hypocrisy. But you will find it to be true when you cross-reference those articles with others and look at the big picture.

you have a LOT of passion for this issue and I really respect that... but perhaps could you look at doing (even more) (really comprehensive) research and then present solution based ideas for the specific locales/lifestyles/incomes of the people you're interacting with?

Whew! That's a mighty big task you're suggesting I take on there! If someone were to ask me specifically, I'm always happy to help. But most people here aren't even interested in the info I've already provided, so I don't see any reason to spend that kind of time on such a project. Other people can use the internet just as easily as I can.

Again, I'm happy to help if you are asking for my help. I just can't take on such a project, especially knowing that it would all be for naught.

and also look at the way you configure your energetic 'presence' and psychology towards others on this important issue? because educating works better than guilting or confronting/ accusing people.... (haven't read whole thread yet so apologies if this isn't accurate... but I sense it is?)

Since you haven't read the whole thread yet, much less other threads, then you are assessing based on a very tiny piece of the whole. The tone of my own comments and of others changed considerably over the course of several years, after numerous attempts to have a respectful discussion.

Nothing I say could ever trigger guilt in anyone. To prove this point, what if I said "Eating tomatoes from your organic, patio garden is STS". Would you feel guilt?

By the way: ... humans aren't (anthropologically) herbivores but omnivorous opportunists who ate/eat according to specific local availability/traditions etc... for example, I have a friend who's Inuit/Eskimo... and he eats Narwhal .... hardly any plants... because where he lives is all snow and ice... who are we to speak against that? He hunts sustainably... the animal is free and peaceful it's whole life until a quick death and then the community has ceremony and prayers of thanks for it's life. A vegetarian/vegan diet would make him and his community very physically ill.
And additionally - these are Indigenous communities trying to rebuild from western invasion/influence.. trying to regroup and steer clear of alcohol and drugs and video violence etc.... you can't grow corn on snow... there's millennia of sacred interaction and balanced co habitation of Indigenous people and the animals around them...

This topic has been addressed, comprehensively, in the threads I linked above.

(actually I'm put in mind of the novel 'ISHMAEL' at this point... it makes a lot of sense ..have you read it?)

Yes, many years ago.

anyhoo... as I'm saying it's COMPLEX
Indigenous peoples traditions of land usage and spiritual relationship with animals (including hunting/eating them in an ecologically balanced and profoundly reverent way as part of LIVING and ONGOING traditions of sustainable culture of millennia (over 40,000 years in the case of Australian Aboriginals); ethically informs that non-Indigenous people have NO RIGHT to interfere or impose beliefs/ideas/practices - particularly not onto peoples already imposed on by being colonised, marginalised, robbed of their lands, disconnected from, and/or striving to reconnect or remain connected to their original cultural practices and spiritual traditions; as well as trying to find a way to interact safely with (and within) a dominant culture that's disenfranchised them since invasion.

Another example of the complexity around veganism/vegetarianism? - there's a great deal of past and continuing research into plant consciousness (that I can link many interesting articles to)... that's shown/showing that they are sentient and can feel pain (to varying degrees...)-  so there's a deep teach/learning needed there as well.

These too have been explored comprehensively. I invite you to read those old threads.

...now I'll start at page one of this thread and read whole way through to here (page 20 !) as time and my brain permits.

Oh gosh, this is only a very tiny thread! Wait'll you see the others!