Hi Everyone!
I haven't been around the last couple of weeks...trying to get caught up. Great topic!
I think it's important to remember what the nature of STS is: to control and be controlled...to infringe upon the free will of other-selves and in turn have one's own free will infringed upon. Such is the nature of STS!
Thus, it would seem to me that killing the STS entity in order to save the victim would actually enhance the STS entity's evolution, while at the same time answering the call of the victim who wishes to be saved!
Sounds like a win-win to me.
As for the STO person who killed the STS perp, it's not quite that simple. Did s/he relish the chance to get violent? Was there ego involved, in being the hero? Was there any other recourse that might have saved the victim without killing the perp? Was it absolutely necessary to kill the perp in order to save the victim, or could he have saved the victim without resorting to violence?
See above. It doesn't matter who the victim is, whether self or other-self. If there is a way to stop the violence without resorting to more violence, that would be preferable, would it not? But, if the only way to save one's life was to take the life of the perp, then that is self-defense...that is stopping an STS entity from taking the free will of another...that is exercising one's free will to live and not be a victim. I think the STS entity is going to polarize either way...whether he kills or is killed. But it can make a vast difference to the polarization of the STO entity, whether s/he is drawn into an incident of violence willingly or grudgingly...As above, the attitudes and intentions have a great deal to do with how polarizing the action could be.
Ra was clear on this point...that such an action can be STO in nature even though the action might seem STS on the surface.
I don't think there is any such thing as a single 'correct' path. Each situation is different, and we are different at different times in our lives. What might have been acceptable before might not be acceptable now.
If you are feeling bothered by your past actions, you are not any different from the rest of us. We've all done things that may have seemed like the most appropriate action at the time, but now seem less than optimal. We're not the same as we were then. We've changed...we've grown in our understanding and love. We might respond differently now. We might not even put ourselves in that situation now. But we did then, and that was where we were at, and we learned and grew from that experience.
If there is anything that could be considered a 'correct' path it is the path of forgiveness...of both self and other-self...of both victim and victimizer.
Jesus demonstrated the epitome of the STO path. Q'uo has stated that it might not always be practical for us to be martyrs; nor are we expected to be. (Something like that...I'll see if I can dig up that session.)
Rather than trying to categorize a violent action as either 'wrong' or 'ok since it was in the name of war/duty' it might be more useful to just recognize that we did the best we could in a very ugly situation. Why should anyone ever have to justify an act of violence? Does violence become somehow acceptable if it's justified? And justified by whose standards? Those who are promoting the violence? Is it our responsibility to answer to the instigators of violence? What is duty? Do we really have duty, or is duty just something we've been led to believe we must have, in order to justify actions we otherwise would not have been willing to engage in? Why should anyone ever act out of duty rather than love? Is duty a real, tangible concept that's part of our STO path, or is it a mechanism used by STS entities to control others and make unpalatable actions seem more palatable?
(These are just some questions to consider.)
Ra/Q'uo have spoken about the 'bellicose' nature of Earth inhabitants. Violence has been a way of life since they planted us on this planet...and before, on our respective planets, in which many of us failed to be harvestable due to violence, resulting in making the home planet uninhabitable, thus necessitating this Earth 1-room-schoolhouse/school for juvenile delinquents experiment. Violence can be dressed up, glossed over, excused and justified...even glorified! All of us have likely participated in violence at one time or another...probably many times! And all of us have likely taken part in the illusion that we are separate, ie. that there is such a thing as an 'enemy' that must be annihilated in order to save ourselves. We know now that this is an illusion. We must forgive ourselves for what we did when we didn't know what we know now.
I don't think justification is the solution to resolving discomfort/grief/remorse over questionable past actions. Justification only drives the pain deeper. Totally karma-free actions need no justification! Rather than justifying the action, why not try confronting it head-on, in all its ugliness, and FORGIVE self for that action? Only forgiveness erases the pain and the karma.
(my 2 cents)
What is 'right and wrong' but an innate (though over-simplified) understanding of the STO path? Is what we consider 'right and wrong' as STO entities the same as what would be considered 'right and wrong' for an STS entity?
We are STO entities...so I suggest that it isn't necessary to try to figure out a 'right' response to every single contingency, from both STO and STS perspectives.
From an STO perspective, one person's freedom ends where another's begins.
So, my opinions regarding your hypothetical scenarios are:
1. This wouldn't be a positive response, because you chose to not help when you could have. Just a mere lack of control does not make the action STO; answering the call of another self makes it STO. Since, in this scenario, you chose to ignore the call of the victim, I'd say that was STS, not STO.
2. Inconclusive. All you're doing at this point is observing. We all coexist on this planet. I don't think we need to be concerned about whether we're controlling someone just by walking down the street. The other-selves aren't being controlled by our very presence! That fact that the attacker stopped might have just been lucky. You can't assume he will stop just because he sees you, so it doesn't solve your dilemma. What if he doesn't stop? What then?
3. Why would this be more negative than positive? There's a 3rd person here - the victim! Saving the victim from the attacker would be a positive action, imo. How could it be otherwise? A more assertive action does necessarily mean it's a more controlling action. Rushing in to save the victim isn't controlling - it's stopping the attacker from controlling another! The attacker is just getting his own action reflected back to him. He initiated the cycle of control. I don't think stopping the control action (by stopping him) would be considered controlling. Quite the opposite! It's honoring the victim's wish to not be controlled...and being of service to the victim.
As I mentioned in my previous post, it's important to remember the nature of STS. They have different rules. The attacker in this scenario is going to get his rocks off whether he kills or is killed...2 sides of the same coin. So leave him be and focus on answering the victim's call for help.
And who knows? If the attacker isn't actually STS but just having a fit of rage due to drugs/alcohol or some other unusual catalyst, then your action just might bring him back from the brink of destruction over to STO. We can't assume that every attacker is a fully polarized STS entity. Sometimes otherwise 'good' people do bad things in moments of desperation or pain...and in these cases, it is even more important that we take action! Because then we are affecting the polarity of not 1, not 2, but 3 entities!
When in doubt, I'd say always go for involvement rather than turning a blind eye...peace rather than violence...right and wrong aren't as simple and easy to categorize as our religions would have us believe, but that doesn't mean we should just toss out all concepts of 'right action' either. I think it's sometimes tempting to over-analyze these things...hypothetical scenarios might be useful to ponder, but ultimately I would say the best action is the one you feel compelled to take, AFTER asking your Higher Self for guidance, and affirming your intention to act out of LOVE for ALL, in the heat of the moment.
I haven't been around the last couple of weeks...trying to get caught up. Great topic!
(01-26-2010, 12:46 AM)Peregrinus Wrote: I've thought of these things in the sto path. How about these scenarios:
a) An sto entity arrives on a scene whereby an sts entity is about to kill an sto entity, and the sto entity kills the sts entity. Does this interfere with the sts entities evolution? and how does this align with the LOO teachings?
I think it's important to remember what the nature of STS is: to control and be controlled...to infringe upon the free will of other-selves and in turn have one's own free will infringed upon. Such is the nature of STS!
Thus, it would seem to me that killing the STS entity in order to save the victim would actually enhance the STS entity's evolution, while at the same time answering the call of the victim who wishes to be saved!
Sounds like a win-win to me.
As for the STO person who killed the STS perp, it's not quite that simple. Did s/he relish the chance to get violent? Was there ego involved, in being the hero? Was there any other recourse that might have saved the victim without killing the perp? Was it absolutely necessary to kill the perp in order to save the victim, or could he have saved the victim without resorting to violence?
(01-26-2010, 12:46 AM)Peregrinus Wrote: b) An sto entity is being attacked with intent to kill by an sts entity. The sto entity kills the sts entity. How does this align with the LOO teachings?
See above. It doesn't matter who the victim is, whether self or other-self. If there is a way to stop the violence without resorting to more violence, that would be preferable, would it not? But, if the only way to save one's life was to take the life of the perp, then that is self-defense...that is stopping an STS entity from taking the free will of another...that is exercising one's free will to live and not be a victim. I think the STS entity is going to polarize either way...whether he kills or is killed. But it can make a vast difference to the polarization of the STO entity, whether s/he is drawn into an incident of violence willingly or grudgingly...As above, the attitudes and intentions have a great deal to do with how polarizing the action could be.
(01-26-2010, 12:46 AM)Peregrinus Wrote: c) An sto entity acting out of intent for the greater good kills another sto entity.
Ra was clear on this point...that such an action can be STO in nature even though the action might seem STS on the surface.
(01-26-2010, 12:46 AM)Peregrinus Wrote: I guess what I am trying to figure out is how making unviable another mbs complex is viewed through the LOO. Having been a soldier I did my duty in what I considered sto circumstances. Is the only correct path to be Christlike?
I don't think there is any such thing as a single 'correct' path. Each situation is different, and we are different at different times in our lives. What might have been acceptable before might not be acceptable now.
If you are feeling bothered by your past actions, you are not any different from the rest of us. We've all done things that may have seemed like the most appropriate action at the time, but now seem less than optimal. We're not the same as we were then. We've changed...we've grown in our understanding and love. We might respond differently now. We might not even put ourselves in that situation now. But we did then, and that was where we were at, and we learned and grew from that experience.
If there is anything that could be considered a 'correct' path it is the path of forgiveness...of both self and other-self...of both victim and victimizer.
Jesus demonstrated the epitome of the STO path. Q'uo has stated that it might not always be practical for us to be martyrs; nor are we expected to be. (Something like that...I'll see if I can dig up that session.)
Rather than trying to categorize a violent action as either 'wrong' or 'ok since it was in the name of war/duty' it might be more useful to just recognize that we did the best we could in a very ugly situation. Why should anyone ever have to justify an act of violence? Does violence become somehow acceptable if it's justified? And justified by whose standards? Those who are promoting the violence? Is it our responsibility to answer to the instigators of violence? What is duty? Do we really have duty, or is duty just something we've been led to believe we must have, in order to justify actions we otherwise would not have been willing to engage in? Why should anyone ever act out of duty rather than love? Is duty a real, tangible concept that's part of our STO path, or is it a mechanism used by STS entities to control others and make unpalatable actions seem more palatable?
(These are just some questions to consider.)
Ra/Q'uo have spoken about the 'bellicose' nature of Earth inhabitants. Violence has been a way of life since they planted us on this planet...and before, on our respective planets, in which many of us failed to be harvestable due to violence, resulting in making the home planet uninhabitable, thus necessitating this Earth 1-room-schoolhouse/school for juvenile delinquents experiment. Violence can be dressed up, glossed over, excused and justified...even glorified! All of us have likely participated in violence at one time or another...probably many times! And all of us have likely taken part in the illusion that we are separate, ie. that there is such a thing as an 'enemy' that must be annihilated in order to save ourselves. We know now that this is an illusion. We must forgive ourselves for what we did when we didn't know what we know now.
I don't think justification is the solution to resolving discomfort/grief/remorse over questionable past actions. Justification only drives the pain deeper. Totally karma-free actions need no justification! Rather than justifying the action, why not try confronting it head-on, in all its ugliness, and FORGIVE self for that action? Only forgiveness erases the pain and the karma.
(my 2 cents)
(01-26-2010, 12:10 AM)Chett Wrote: You are walking in the woods and come upon two people, one is brutalizing the other. The one being brutalized is screaming for help. They are not aware of you.
1) you leave before they see you. (no action the only person you have controlled is self, so a positive action)
2) you move closer so you are noticed, the one attacking stops (your action has in effect controlled one, and released one from control, so balanced action?)
3) you rush in and pull the attacker off (perhaps same as above but possibly stronger 'controlling action' so more negative than positive?)
At least for me this runs counter to sense of right and wrong, which perhaps is the great value of a catalyst - sorting it out may produce the needed balance.
What is 'right and wrong' but an innate (though over-simplified) understanding of the STO path? Is what we consider 'right and wrong' as STO entities the same as what would be considered 'right and wrong' for an STS entity?
We are STO entities...so I suggest that it isn't necessary to try to figure out a 'right' response to every single contingency, from both STO and STS perspectives.
From an STO perspective, one person's freedom ends where another's begins.
So, my opinions regarding your hypothetical scenarios are:
1. This wouldn't be a positive response, because you chose to not help when you could have. Just a mere lack of control does not make the action STO; answering the call of another self makes it STO. Since, in this scenario, you chose to ignore the call of the victim, I'd say that was STS, not STO.
2. Inconclusive. All you're doing at this point is observing. We all coexist on this planet. I don't think we need to be concerned about whether we're controlling someone just by walking down the street. The other-selves aren't being controlled by our very presence! That fact that the attacker stopped might have just been lucky. You can't assume he will stop just because he sees you, so it doesn't solve your dilemma. What if he doesn't stop? What then?
3. Why would this be more negative than positive? There's a 3rd person here - the victim! Saving the victim from the attacker would be a positive action, imo. How could it be otherwise? A more assertive action does necessarily mean it's a more controlling action. Rushing in to save the victim isn't controlling - it's stopping the attacker from controlling another! The attacker is just getting his own action reflected back to him. He initiated the cycle of control. I don't think stopping the control action (by stopping him) would be considered controlling. Quite the opposite! It's honoring the victim's wish to not be controlled...and being of service to the victim.
As I mentioned in my previous post, it's important to remember the nature of STS. They have different rules. The attacker in this scenario is going to get his rocks off whether he kills or is killed...2 sides of the same coin. So leave him be and focus on answering the victim's call for help.
And who knows? If the attacker isn't actually STS but just having a fit of rage due to drugs/alcohol or some other unusual catalyst, then your action just might bring him back from the brink of destruction over to STO. We can't assume that every attacker is a fully polarized STS entity. Sometimes otherwise 'good' people do bad things in moments of desperation or pain...and in these cases, it is even more important that we take action! Because then we are affecting the polarity of not 1, not 2, but 3 entities!
When in doubt, I'd say always go for involvement rather than turning a blind eye...peace rather than violence...right and wrong aren't as simple and easy to categorize as our religions would have us believe, but that doesn't mean we should just toss out all concepts of 'right action' either. I think it's sometimes tempting to over-analyze these things...hypothetical scenarios might be useful to ponder, but ultimately I would say the best action is the one you feel compelled to take, AFTER asking your Higher Self for guidance, and affirming your intention to act out of LOVE for ALL, in the heat of the moment.