In regards to eating meat

[godwide_void]

Unfortunately ours is a world commandeered by megalomaniacal madmen driven by greed and pursuit of power at the expense of the welfare, freedom, security and livelihood around them. Most of the nonsensical and essentially insane acts executed in this world are profit-driven. Those who support this industry (I take it you mean that of slaughtering animals for food) do retain a degree of being guilty, I agree, yet is it not possible that there are some who support such an industry who aren't aware of the malevolence which it spearheads? Actually, no, given the degree of informational availability and transparency I would find it very unlikely that anybody would actively support such an industry and somehow be completely oblivious to what goes on at the forefront.

You've twisted my logic. I am not condoning killing nor implying that simply because our true nature is that of Light donning temporary forms acting as various perspectives of the awareness of Creator that it allows for harming others. Given what you know, it is pretty illogical for you to even propose such a thing. I am simply curious as to why is it that ingestion of meat is shunned but ingestion of plants are allowed when both are still imbued with consciousness? Plants are conscious, sentient beings, are they not? So why is it fine to eat them but not animals? They are still aspects of the Creator whom are still aware, and perhaps when one goes to make a vegetable juice the celery feels itself being grinded to a pulp.

I do not see why you would somehow associate murdering with the logic I've presented, which is simply an observation on our nature. What does us being light have to do with humans killing humans?

Edit: I just saw you edited your post. I was under the impression that there was still an ongoing debate over whether ingestion of animals and plants was inherently wrong or right respectively. Eek, do I have to go back and read ~100 pages? >_<;;

[Monica]

Those who support this industry (I take it you mean that of slaughtering animals for food) do retain a degree of being guilty, I agree,

Glad we agree on that! I thought you were saying the opposite in your previous post.

yet is it not possible that there are some who support such an industry who aren't aware of the malevolence which it spearheads?

Absolutely! Though it is getting increasingly difficult to remain ignorant.

Actually, no, given the degree of informational availability and transparency I would find it very unlikely that anybody would actively support such an industry and somehow be completely oblivious to what goes on at the forefront.

Well, we just saw it happen...even here in a spiritual community.

You've twisted my logic.

Sorry, not intentional! I was trying to understand your logic, by extending it to another example.

I am not condoning killing nor implying that simply because our true nature is that of Light donning temporary forms acting as various perspectives of the awareness of Creator that it allows for harming others.

OK cool! Thank you for that clarification!

Given what you know, it is pretty illogical for you to even propose such a thing.

I agree. But believe it or not, others in this thread have proposed that very thing! Which is why I questioned what you were saying. Again, thank you for the clarification.

I am simply curious as to why is it that ingestion of meat is shunned but ingestion of plants are allowed when both are still imbued with consciousness? Plants are conscious, sentient beings, are they not? So why is it fine to eat them but not animals? They are still aspects of the Creator whom are still aware, and perhaps when one goes to make a vegetable juice the celery feels itself being grinded to a pulp.

That's a very good question and one that has been exhaustively discussed. I don't have time to repeat all that has been said, but you will find it in the thread.

I do not see why you would somehow associate murdering with the logic I've presented, which is simply an observation on our nature. What does us being light have to do with humans killing humans?

My comment was based on my misunderstanding you to say that it didn't matter if we supported the killing of animals, since we're all just light anyway. So I took that same logic and applied it to humans, to make a point.

But now that you have clarified that you weren't saying that, my point is moot (except for as pertains to others who may have said or implied that).

Edit: I just saw you edited your post. I was under the impression that there was still an ongoing debate over whether ingestion of animals and plants was inherently wrong or right respectively. Eek, do I have to go back and read ~100 pages? >_<;;

Haha, only if you are interested in the many deep, rich discussions that have occurred in this thread.

[Pablísimo]

Dear Meat-eaters and all those interested in this subject:

This post is from Monica, Diana and Pablísimo. We love you all and thank you for the many rich catalysts provided by this marathon discussion.

We have noticed that many of the same questions and comments continue to crop up, and instead of repeating ourselves, we think we have found a better solution. At various times throughout this discussion, we have, along with a few others, attempted to take a multi-stage approach:

1) Deal with the hurt feelings, sadness, alienation, etc in what we hope was a compassionate and loving way, to relieve immediate suffering and clear emotional static so we could talk constructively.
2) Establish the absolute right of all of us to have our own opinions, even if other people don't like those opinions, which we hope was done respectfully.
3) Contrast extremist approaches, such as PETA sometimes uses, with what we vegetarians here had been doing, which was not extremist and predicated upon, among other things, spiritual growth.
4) Using reasonable analogies and words, explain our perspective clearly from a metaphysical Wanderer standpoint on the one hand, and from a compassion-based 3D human standpoint on the other.

At times, we have all -- vegetarians and meat-eaters alike -- gotten frustrated, weary, hurt, and discouraged at the lack of understanding, despite our best efforts. Please know that we, Monica, Pablísimo, and Diana, never intended to hurt, judge or offend anyone, and that we gave it our best effort!

We wish to answer all questions and comments, and since many of the same ones repeat, and we are all busy, this is our solution: We have decided to re-read the entire thread, in segments which we have divided amongst ourselves, and catalog key points according to topic. Hopefully, time allowing, sometime in the next couple of weeks, we will be posting a list of links to the posts which, in our assessment, most accurately reflect the points we have been trying to convey.

Should you wish to revisit this topic, or gain better understanding of the points we have tried to convey, we invite you to read these key posts. We plan to offer them here, arranged by concept/idea, for your convenience. In the meantime, once again, we thank you for your service, for your insights, and for your love and compassion which you have so freely and unreservedly bestowed upon us.

We would also like to take a moment to recognize the Creator in everyone who reads these words. We firmly believe this is an extremely important topic to consider for all evolving Beings walking an STO-oriented path, and thus we speak. Yet we also recognize that this one single consideration -- the meat or vegetable-based diet - does not define anyone's overall Polarity, Harvestability, or "spiritual fitness."

Our intention is not to judge our human-other selves, nor define their Polarity or Harvestability by one single aspect instead of the totality of many choices and aspects. Rather, our goal is to compassionately advocate for what we believe to be a kinder, more benevolent way of meeting our own needs while honoring our younger Brothers and Sisters, our animal Other-Selves. We sincerely hope that, in our ardor to speak out for those who have no voice, our sincere love and concern for our human Brothers and Sisters is also understood. We love all of you, ALL of our Other-Selves, regardless of density.

Bright blessings to you all!

Monica, Diana and Pablísimo


The Law of One 3:65
Could your planet polarize towards harmony in one fine, strong, moment of inspiration? Yes, my friends. It is not probable; but it is ever possible.

---

Consciously Evolving

---

Love to all

---

[godwide_void]

I'll be sure to make it my top goal for this year to read through every single page of this thread before Harvest comes!

Glad that we see eye to eye, though. Also, by "support" I thought you meant financially supporting as opposed to emotionally supporting that industry. It disgusted me to a great degree watching some videos of the conditions that animals being prepped for slaughter and food distribution are subjected to and how they are treated. Unfortunately there's nothing any individual can do to completely shut down this industry, save for at least pushing for a more humane treatment of these animals, NOT injecting them with random steroids and other crap, and a more humane killing of them as well a la Halal/Kosher food.

[Monica]

I'll be sure to make it my top goal for this year to read through every single page of this thread before Harvest comes!

Cool!

by "support" I thought you meant financially supporting as opposed to emotionally supporting that industry.

Buying meat does support the industry financially.

And with that, I need to get to work cataloging posts. Thank you for the discussion, godwide. I hope you enjoy the read!

[3DMonkey]

I honestly believe it is okay for a person to eat meat.

Just wondering: So then is it 'ok' for me to kill a dog if I enjoy killing dogs?

Eat. The action is eating. Eating a dog is okay.

[Shemaya]

Edit: post deleted.

[BrownEye]

We have noticed that many of the same questions and comments continue to crop up,

Dissonance can keep things from sinking in.

---

I am simply curious as to why is it that ingestion of meat is shunned but ingestion of plants are allowed when both are still imbued with consciousness? Plants are conscious, sentient beings, are they not? So why is it fine to eat them but not animals? They are still aspects of the Creator whom are still aware, and perhaps when one goes to make a vegetable juice the celery feels itself being grinded to a pulp.

Throughout history we have individuals that can travel multiple realms, and experience more beyond our commonly accepted spectrum of perception. You will be hard pressed to find any evidence of this kind of effect in lower plants that we eat, as compared to larger plants and trees that we do not eat.

[Shemaya]

If one has a goal of living in a different level of vibration, it can be beneficial to drop meat eating. It is not beneficial however, to still entangle one with red/orange vibrational activity like judging other's activities. That will never raise one's frequency. Never.

(That is my current, personal understanding of this matter.)

Makes sense Oldern. After spending time reading this thread, thinking about it, and feeling into the emotions that are provoked, I conclude that the message I discern after thousands of words and proofs, and without actually saying it is,
" Eating meat is bad".

Of course that is really an opinion based on non-acceptance and non-forgiveness.

It's not truth or fact.

There is a lot that I agree with that has been written here, but I disagree that eating meat is bad.

[Oldern]

I have given another shot at being a "sorta vegetarian". I personally have to thank Pickle for the catalyst that he provided to us when he posted a few links in this thread. There was a description of how animals were treated:

In terms of animal right, I am more concerned how the farm animals are raised and then put down rather than if someone ever put them down for their consumption. Did you know conventional chickens never see sunlight nor breathe outdoor air for their whole life? From the time they hatch in the machine, they are kept in a crowded factory. Letting them move around is a waste of their food energy and it also increases their dark meat, which sells cheaper than white meat. I also heard chicken wings pinched to restrict their movement.

They are packed in filthy indoor, standing in their own feces. This horrible growing environment causes many diseases, so the chickens are fed with antibiotics regularly. Fast turnover means more profit, so in order to raise them quickly, they are also fed with growth hormone.

And when the day comes, these chickens are dunk in hot water alive. Factory farms don’t even bother to kill the chickens individually. They are drowned, which also wet their feathers, making it easier to handle.

What hit me about this is that we distance ourselves from what is happening to these animals. We waltz into the store, look at dat clean white chicken meat, turkey meat, and we buy it, feeling clean. It is not clean. It has been bathed in feces, pain and hot boiling blood. Think about that, right? After making this connection, I decided not to go back to that practice.

*draws an imaginary line*

And this is where my main disagreement comes. I still do not think eating meat is bad, as stated before. There were civilizations (there still are) who are spiritually WAY more unified and evolved that we are, and they eat/eaten meat. Look at the indians. They knew the connection between every being on the existence. They respected the animal spirits. They loved them. They treated them properly - and thanked them when the hunt came and the animal's meat was used so a tribe can live on. No, I would not ever DARE to waltz in there and shout at them to start eating grains and dem apples. Never. I have no right for that, simple as that :)

Gaining balance between ourselves and other-selves is more important for me at this point in my life than getting a practice that allows me to judge others, simple as that. Do I think that everyone should follow that mindset? Yes. Am I wrong for thinking that? Yes! :) Because it is not about the decisions we make, it is about how we get there is what matters. Big life-changing decisions and spiritual improvements are almost never because someone told you to live differently. It is because you realized you need to live differently. Big, big difference.

[norral]

oldern

imo the indians treated the animals honorably. they didnt mass produce them and treat them like crap . there was honor in the way the animal brothers were dealt with. todays society we mass produce it . animals are treated so inhumanely it is not funny. nothing alive sb treated like that. but then look how we treat the earth as though it is not alive. in todays world everything is killed at the altar of money. and producing meat today is about making money. ha ha dont worry about those little critters they dont feel anything . they're not human. no they arent human. but they are children. and i eat meat . not a lot. but some. but i have to be honest . i mean would be take a bunch of 3 year old children and treat them like we treat animals in a slaughterhouse. i doubt it. we treat the animals without honor. but we treat one another without honor. human society worships at the altar of greed. make a buck , kill someone or something , no big deal .
that is the truth of human existence on this planet today . it is so incredibly in denial that it is not funny.

look at how we drop bombs on people. when someone is killed accidentally in afghan we apologize. how hysterically sad that is. oh by the way i accidentally killed your grandchild . u understand dont u i am an american u sb happy that i apologized. i mean i did say i am sorry that makes it all better. what incredible incredible arrogance this country has. i saw all the killing in vietnam. i got up one day in the middle of a meeting on the base where i was stationed at and said essentially maybe we should look at this war from the standpoint of the vietnamese; that went over like a lead ballon. i didnt buy into the propagand crapola way back then. i actually thought it might be painful for the vietnamese to see their children killed and their country destroyed. aargh aargh aargh with this country. we have never met a bomb that we didnt like or blood that we didnt enjoy seeing spilled. that is america the bloodiest country on this planet. at least the leaders are and so so many of the people buy into the b.s. that we are fed. why oh why wasnt i born in europe . i hate what this country stands for hate it hate it hate it. we are such hypocrites here such hypocrites.

norral

norral

[Shemaya]

Agree with you both,Oldern and norral. Money and profits first, caring and honor are not part of our industrialized food system. And it's this industrialized system that creates the distance between us and our food.

I'm enheartened seeing so more farmer's markets around, it's the start of bigger changes.

[Oldern]

Norral: "It is always darkest before the dawn"

We are here to raise the vibration. To provide an alternative way of thinking. And love even those who choose to disrespect themselves, and therefore treat themselves and each other poorly.

(And it is not much better in Europe, anyway :P There are different issues here. Different, but not better or worse..)

[norral]

thanks brother that song is incredibly moving and gives me hope

love u

norral

[Steppingfeet]

Though I consider the idea, I'm not going vegetarian anytime in the foreseeable future, but I will make a conscious, deliberate effort to purchase and consume meat that is humanely raised in a natural, life-respecting way.

Great article about the horrific conditions of factory farming and the violations to both animal and human rights in the Mother Jones article below:

http://motherjones.com/tom-philpott/2012...pink-slime

Nothing new to add to a discussion that's already covered these basic points several times over. Just nicely collected into a brief article, and from a journalistic source I greatly respect.

[Plenum]

At times, we have all -- vegetarians and meat-eaters alike -- gotten frustrated, weary, hurt, and discouraged at the lack of understanding, despite our best efforts. Please know that we, Monica, Pablísimo, and Diana, never intended to hurt, judge or offend anyone, and that we gave it our best effort!

it is great that you guys are exploring the theme of Unity through this 'prism'.

I am sure, that somewhere, the Logos doesn't make any judgements at all, and is just interested in the further development of all.

peace you three

[Shemaya]

Norral: "It is always darkest before the dawn"

We are here to raise the vibration. To provide an alternative way of thinking. And love even those who choose to disrespect themselves, and therefore treat themselves and each other poorly.

(And it is not much better in Europe, anyway There are different issues here. Different, but not better or worse..)

Oldern you posted my favorite song!!! Cosmic love So archetypal

But I think you meant this awesome song Love this one too, very appropo,
" it's hard to dance with the devil on your back so shake him off!"

---

Just imagine me jumping around dancing shaking the devil off my back

---

Great article about the horrific conditions of factory farming and the violations to both animal and human rights in the Mother Jones article below:

http://motherjones.com/tom-philpott/2012...pink-slime

Thanks for the article, Gary.

I often wonder about the workers in the industry, what an awful job. It would be very difficult to keep the heart open in those conditions.

My son said he was interested in helping me raise hens. I was really excited about that yesterday. Have never done anything like that before and know nothing about it so I am a little scared I'll mess up.

look at how we drop bombs on people. when someone is killed accidentally in afghan we apologize. how hysterically sad that is. oh by the way i accidentally killed your grandchild . u understand dont u i am an american u sb happy that i apologized. i mean i did say i am sorry that makes it all better. what incredible incredible arrogance this country has. i saw all the killing in vietnam.

Gosh, norral, I am right with you on these sentiments. We think think we are patriots because we wave our flags and support the troops, but we don't even know the nefarious agendas we are supporting. A true patriot is willing to speak up as you do, norral.

[norral]

thanks gina

i dont hate america, i hate what ameirca has done. and i have seen it for a long long time starting with the civil rights movement in the late 50's and 60's. i remember when i got stationed in mississippi in 1965 to go to tech school and the town actually had train tracks and whites on one side and blacks on another. it was like wow this is another world i am in. then the scenes of dogs being sicced on children , nothing to be proud of. or the picture from vietnam of the little girl running naked down the street screaming her clothes burned off by naplam. so how it just doesnt make me proud to be an american.
nowadays we have little arab children with body parts missing due to american bombs. i just cant ignore it. and we have an group that is trying now to take rights away from working people ala the loss of negotiating rights in wisconsin for civil service workers. so i will speak out against injustice as i perceive it. i am against hate i am against backbiting and back stabbing and being pulled aside so someone can make a little sniggly offensive racial remark to me because they dont know my racial makeup and just assume, just assume that the same hatred and poison and back bitingness cowardliness that consumes them lives in me. aargh . i mean the next time someone does that to me i am going to say u know what if u dont like blacks go find the biggest toughest looking black guy u can find and share your feelings with them. at least then i will say u are not a hypocrite - stupid yes but a hypocrite no.
so u dear sister have a pure heart, goddess bless u for that - there is no guile in you and that is so so rare to find on this earth. what was it that jesus said when he saw nathaniel - such a man i have not found in all of israel. that is how i view u sister such a person i have not found in all of america.
i cant take the hypocrisy of america anymore. no humility strutting around the world telling people what to do yet people harrassing minorites all over this country for no reason. as they stopped my friend who is black and 65 years old worked for transit for over 25 years the gentlest sweetest man u could ever find, stopped him as he waited at the bus stop and frisked him and then said we had a report. oh holy
s--t yeah they had a report . they had a report in their racist hate filled minds that they could hassle a black man and send the message we are in charge here. arrgh arrgh arrgh lol.
so i am difficult for some because i refuse to accept injustice and unfairness. so be it i will march to the beat of my own drum and wherever it takes me it takes me.

love u

norral

[Shemaya]

love you brother norral

[Monica]

The FDA/USDA are the foxes guarding the henhouse...literally.

USDA to Let Industry Self-Inspect Chicken

As early as next week, the government will end debate on a cost-cutting, modernization proposal it hopes to fully implement by the end of the year. A plan that is setting off alarm bells among food science watchdogs because it turns over most of the chicken inspection duties to the companies that produce the birds for sale.

The poultry companies expect to save more than $250 million a year because they, in turn will be allowed to speed up the processing lines to a dizzying 175 birds per minute with one USDA inspector at the end of the line. Currently, traditional poultry lines move at a maximum of 90 birds per minute, with up to three USDA inspectors on line.

Whistleblower inspectors opposed to the new USDA rule say the companies cannot be trusted to watch over themselves. They contend that companies routinely pressure their employees not to stop the line or slow it down, making thorough inspection for contaminants, tumors and evidence of disease nearly impossible. "At that speed, it's all a blur," one current inspector tells ABC News.

According to OMB Watch, a government accountability newsletter, cutbacks at the USDA have coincided with a significant rise in salmonella outbreaks. The group says 2010 was a record year for salmonella infection and 2011 saw 103 poultry, egg and meat recalls because of disease-causing bacteria, the most in nearly 10 years.

[Diana]

The FDA/USDA are the foxes guarding the henhouse...literally.

USDA to Let Industry Self-Inspect Chicken

As early as next week, the government will end debate on a cost-cutting, modernization proposal it hopes to fully implement by the end of the year. A plan that is setting off alarm bells among food science watchdogs because it turns over most of the chicken inspection duties to the companies that produce the birds for sale.

The poultry companies expect to save more than $250 million a year because they, in turn will be allowed to speed up the processing lines to a dizzying 175 birds per minute with one USDA inspector at the end of the line. Currently, traditional poultry lines move at a maximum of 90 birds per minute, with up to three USDA inspectors on line.

Whistleblower inspectors opposed to the new USDA rule say the companies cannot be trusted to watch over themselves. They contend that companies routinely pressure their employees not to stop the line or slow it down, making thorough inspection for contaminants, tumors and evidence of disease nearly impossible. "At that speed, it's all a blur," one current inspector tells ABC News.

According to OMB Watch, a government accountability newsletter, cutbacks at the USDA have coincided with a significant rise in salmonella outbreaks. The group says 2010 was a record year for salmonella infection and 2011 saw 103 poultry, egg and meat recalls because of disease-causing bacteria, the most in nearly 10 years.

This just blows my mind. Of course, people mainly see this from the standpoint that disease and unhealthy practices endanger human consumption of the meat. I can't get out of my head the sheer numbers of chickens being heartlessly "processed" as though they had no life, no existence beyond ingredients for Colonel Sanders, or meaning on this beautiful planet.

It is reprehensible.

[Monica]

This just blows my mind. Of course, people mainly see this from the standpoint that disease and unhealthy practices endanger human consumption of the meat. I can't get out of my head the sheer numbers of chickens being heartlessly "processed" as though they had no life, no existence beyond ingredients for Colonel Sanders, or meaning on this beautiful planet.

They don't. They're just matter, things, to be used and profited from.

And that is the crux of this whole debate. They're not viewed as beings...certainly not as other-selves.

It is reprehensible.

It really is.

[norral]

i have to agree that the whole thing is pretty sick. and then we have pets such as dogs and cats and birds. i guess we dont have chickens as pets.

the real question this whole thing broaches for me is

what are we living for. are we living to go to work to make money to eat chickens to pay bills to go to work etc etc like an endless treadmill . a few are profiting very handsomely from this treadmill they dont work , it seems that life has become in a sense meaningless. and that imo leads to all of these addictions u name it we have it, sex, booze, drugs , money etc etc.
we are just locked on an endless treadmill of meaningless existence living in a predatory world and this world is predatory no doubt about that. where is the compassion, where is the brotherhood where is just enjoying one another as people as humans. this planet is nuts plain and simple lol. its sad funny tragic . it is freaking nuts here on this orb .

u know reading over what i just wrote it just seems like we should really take time to enjoy one another during the day. see the human being u are dealing with in your day to day existence. there is a human there at starbucks or the deli or the gas station or your co worker. i know i try and connect with the people i work with and enjoy them and i do i enjoy the interaction i have with people on my job. i do enjoy my family and thinking about this now i want to enjoy more the people i interact with. i am not in a competition with anyone. to me together we can do a lot more than we can do independently and the power lies in working cooperatively with your fellow man , not only power but also pleasure comes from working well with your fellow man

[Monica]

.......

[BrownEye]

Ooooh i will have to save that for an avatar!

[Shemaya]

The FDA/USDA are the foxes guarding the henhouse...literally.

USDA to Let Industry Self-Inspect Chicken

The whole system is horrible whether it's the factories, FDA, or USDA. Thanks for posting Monica, this kind of information is helpful....those who don't think of where their food comes from may be more open to hear this.

Does anyone have any info, resources or ideas about how to raise egg-laying hens at home? Questions I have:
~ breeds best for eggs, how many to get 2 doz eggs per week
~how much space needed
~ideal size for coop, plans for building a coop, simple coops that someone with limited carpentry skills could put together
~ plans for a more deluxe coop
~ what to feed
~over-wintering

Austin?

[βαθμιαίος]

We have six hens and they produce about five eggs/day. We use a movable pen, 3' high, 4' wide, 8' long that my children and I made out of 2" x 2" lumber and wrapped with chicken wire. There is a roof on one end for them to get out of the cold and hinged lids on either end, one for getting eggs and the other for feed and water.

They have a space about 20' x 60' that we rotate them through. They move every day so they can always be on fresh dirt/grass/hay -- they love to scratch for worms and bugs.

We feed them scratch (mixed grains) and a laying ration from the farmers' coop.

We haven't had any trouble with over-wintering, but we did lose some on a brutally hot day last summer. We're in Virginia. Where are you?

[Bring4th_Austin]

The FDA/USDA are the foxes guarding the henhouse...literally.

USDA to Let Industry Self-Inspect Chicken

The whole system is horrible whether it's the factories, FDA, or USDA. Thanks for posting Monica, this kind of information is helpful....those who don't think of where their food comes from may be more open to hear this.

Does anyone have any info, resources or ideas about how to raise egg-laying hens at home? Questions I have:
~ breeds best for eggs, how many to get 2 doz eggs per week
~how much space needed
~ideal size for coop, plans for building a coop, simple coops that someone with limited carpentry skills could put together
~ plans for a more deluxe coop
~ what to feed
~over-wintering

Austin?

Here's a decent breed list that gives you a good idea of what the chickens will lay. The numbers are average...they peak in the springtime and fall under in the wintertime (and most usually stop completely for a month or two while they moult). Some other things you want to consider when choosing breeds is how friendly or flighty they are (some breeds will run away from you no matter what, some will become so friendly you can pick them up), and also whether they are "sitters" or not. Sitters will turn "broody" every once and a while and sit on a nest trying to hatch the eggs. It can be a tough instinct to break and they'll lay a lot less eggs as they do this.

For spacing, inside of a coop a good rule of thumb is 2sq ft/chicken, with a foot of perching space for each chicken. For outside the coop, for a small flock, about 4 sq ft/ a chicken leaves them psychologically satisfied and keeps them from getting neurotic as long as the foraging area stays fresh. A system like βαθμιαίος's using a movable coop which has enough room for the chickens to forage and contains the chickens is great for a backyard where the chickens might tend to wander to grumpy neighbors or get somewhere they aren't supposed to be...though as long as they have plenty of grass to forage in, they're tend not to roam. Be aware that they will find favorite spots in a yard to hang out and scratch them to death. Other systems might have a stationary coop and a larger area for the chickens to roam around in. They poop a lot at night so you'd have to make sure to keep a stationary coop clean (but the manure is the best manure fertilizer there is!)

As for feeding, organic chicken feed is hard to find in most places, and a bit pricey. A local agriculture or garden supply store should have regular feed, and there's livestock feed stores pretty much everywhere. I would recommend looking for "non-medicated" feed. If it's a major brand and doesn't say non-medicated, it most likely has antibiotics and/or arsenic.

Winter shouldn't be a problem; when selecting your breeds any description should tell of any issues with cold or hot weather.

http://www.backyardchickens.com/ has some great info on coops and stuff and should help you get started. Good luck!

[Monica]

~ breeds best for eggs, how many to get 2 doz eggs per week

My dad raised Bantum chickens. They were small and the eggs were small and either green or blue. No Easter dying necessary! He always had at least a dozen or so chickens at any given time, but that included a few roosters. I remember gathering at least several eggs per day and we didn't have to buy eggs.

~how much space needed

My dad built some houses that had wood on 2 sides, and chicken wire on the other 2 sides, and a tin roof. They were tall enough for him to walk in and had a door on hinges. Inside were stacks of wooden boxes, each one just big enough for a single chicken to nestle in a warm bed of hay. It also had a couple of elevated poles for them to roost on. I remember the chickens sleeping side by side in a row on the roosting bar, while some were in the boxes when they were laying or brooding.

~ideal size for coop, plans for building a coop, simple coops that someone with limited carpentry skills could put together

My dad's henhouses were tall enough to walk in, and about 6 or 8 feet long and maybe 5-6 feet wide, I'm guessing. (Keep in mind things always seem bigger when you're a child!) He always locked them up at night.

~ what to feed

My dad gave them chicken feed that he bought in sacks from the feed store, but they had a large yard to forage in too.

~over-wintering

The coldest it ever got here in Texas was in the mid-teens. I don't remember him ever losing any chickens because of the cold.

[βαθμιαίος]

Ours is a lot like this one: http://www.farmtek.com/farm/supplies/pro...10494.html except that the back part where they sleep is integrated and they have roosting bars. Pic of the one at the link: