In regards to eating meat

[Plenum]

are you keeping this thread alive Pickle?

you have the last 3 posts

- -

to keep on topic, I ate a beef sausage today. <groan>

tasted good with mustard seeds. (carcinogenic ++)

[zenmaster]

Iowa grain and hog farmer John Weber said he realizes people want to be sure animals are treated humanely but said it's easy for groups to get video of livestock that when paired with dramatic music can give an improper impression.

If people are to be educated about farm-animal treatment, they will never be given a proper depiction from the zealot groups. That's obvious.

[BrownEye]

are you keeping this thread alive Pickle?

I thought that quote belonged here. It was an interesting read, happens to parallel descriptions by some meth users as well. Someone is relaying experience to me on messenger right now.

Is this the "inner plane" stuff?

[Diana]

This had me laughing.



http://www.stuartwilde.com/2009/12/ayahuasca-visions/

Fat people are dangerous. Gluttony comes from self-hate and/or hatred for people and animals. The obese ones have thousands of parts of animal carcasses inside them; watching that always freaks me out. Their bellies are graveyards of the bones of dead animals. The pile of bones is taller than they are in the Aluna.

I saw one woman who had 20,000+ animal parts inside her. The pile in the Aluna was 15–20 feet high and 40–50 feet across. It was like a small hill of bones glued together with agony.

A man of my spiritual intensity does not eat corpses.
~George Bernard Shaw

Recognize meat for what it really is: the antibiotic- and pesticide-laden corpse of a tortured animal.
~Ingrid Newkirk

You have just dined, and however scrupulously the slaughterhouse is concealed in the graceful distance of miles, there is complicity.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson

While we ourselves are the living graves of murdered beasts, how can we expect any ideal conditions on this earth?
~George Bernard Shaw

Nothing will benefit human health and increase chances for survival of life on Earth as much as the evolution to a vegetarian diet.
~Albert Einstein

If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be a vegetarian.
~Paul McCartney

To my mind, the life of a lamb is no less precious than that of a human being. I should be unwilling to take the life of a lamb for the sake of the human body.
~Mahatma Gandhi

---

are you keeping this thread alive Pickle?

you have the last 3 posts

- -

to keep on topic, I ate a beef sausage today. <groan>

tasted good with mustard seeds. (carcinogenic ++)

As a vegetarian, I have been the end of countless jokes about eating baby animals, and people telling me that they just ate such-and-such meat. What is the purpose of that?

Yes, I think, sadly, that taste is a huge reason why humans continue to eat meat. I understand it to a certain extent. I continue to eat certain things because of taste too--or rather habit I think--such as the occasional bowl of ice cream.

I guess the eating of meat is very ingrained in humans.

---

Iowa grain and hog farmer John Weber said he realizes people want to be sure animals are treated humanely but said it's easy for groups to get video of livestock that when paired with dramatic music can give an improper impression.

If people are to be educated about farm-animal treatment, they will never be given a proper depiction from the zealot groups. That's obvious.

Rational arguments (in the sense of relating information) don't seem to have much traction either.

[Monica]

As a vegetarian, I have been the end of countless jokes about eating baby animals, and people telling me that they just ate such-and-such meat. What is the purpose of that?

Me too. I have wondered that too. And they often embellish it with lots of details, like they're just really trying to rub it in. "Oh that steak was soooooo juicy and delicious! And I like it rare...bloody...you should have some! You could almost hear that cow mooing, it was so bloody and fresh. Yum yum!"

It just seems mean. Can anyone explain the psychology of these actions? Why do they do it?

I have tried to explain why so-called 'zealots' do what they do: they are trying to save lives.

Can someone explain to me why meat-eaters sometimes feel compelled to make a point of telling vegetarians the details about their enjoyment of meat? I truly would like to know the motivation behind it. Maybe I can understand them better, instead of thinking they're just mean.

huge reason why humans continue to eat meat. I understand it to a certain extent. I continue to eat certain things because of taste too--or rather habit I think--such as the occasional bowl of ice cream.

I actually don't think it's taste, because meat has very little taste. It's the seasonings and preparation that are so familiar. That's why when transitioning to veg, it's popular to make the same familiar dishes, like lasagne and enchildadas, sans the meat. The overall taste and texture are the same and one hardly misses the meat at all....once they actually try it! But there is a huge mental block against even trying it, in many cases.

Rational arguments (in the sense of relating information) don't seem to have much traction either.

Very true. It's not a rational issue. It's more emotional.

Great quotes, Diana!

[Bring4th_Austin]

Can someone explain to me why meat-eaters sometimes feel compelled to make a point of telling vegetarians the details about their enjoyment of meat? I truly would like to know the motivation behind it. Maybe I can understand them better, instead of thinking they're just mean.

That's an excellent question. My best guess is that it is emotional deflection. The emotion that the meat-eater is avoiding could be wide-ranging, from feeling judged by vegetarians, to guilt for eating meat, to simply being faced with an alternative lifestyle. Instead of allowing themselves to confront the emotion they will attempt to arouse emotion within the person that is either actively or passively, intentionally or unintentionally, arousing emotion within them, the vegetarian.

[Patrick]

Humm bacon !

[yossarian]

perhaps cognitive dissonance theory would explain it.

People feel dissonance between the belief that they like animals and would never hurt them, and the behaviour of killing billions of animals. The way to resolve the dissonance w/o changing behav is to assert how much they enjoy the horror and plan to continue. The re-commitment to the behaviour is strengthened, and so their mind is able to more quickly resolve the dissonance. It suppresses the thoughts regarding the killing of animals & alleviates the anxiety. The reduction in anxiety reinforces the behaviour and people learn to just fantasize about bacon everytime a nearby vegetarian arouses awareness of the underlying conflict. By publicly committing to their behaviour, the mind is put under extra pressure to resolve the dissonance, in accord with the commonly understood social pressure effect where making a public social commitment can motivate people to stick with that commitment and making a public choice can motivate people to stick with that choice so that others do not look down on them for being wishy-washy.

[Oldern]

A few weeks ago, I saw a picture of a powerless, young, devastated chicken. One out of thousands in a place where they are "grown" to be killed.

I said damn - enough is enough... and stopped eating meat.
I only lasted for two weeks for the first try, though. I was not craving meat, not at all. But my simple and drastic change to my diet totally messed up my digestion, and I could not do anything about that.

I will approach this once again in the next months. I will not be forcing myself to totally abandon meat, but I never really forced it either. Any suggestions how to keep up a healthy digestion would be appreciated. Not the one where I run to the bathroom every few hours, and not the one where I have nothing on the "output side" for days : D

[BrownEye]

Do it slowly, a full stop can cause your system to clean up too fast making you feel like crap.

For me I just naturally ate less. As I ate less I found that I was unable to increase the amount I took in without stopping my digestive system. I eventually got down to milk, eggs, and cheese, and stopped those one by one.

[Diana]

perhaps cognitive dissonance theory would explain it.

Very astute, Yossarian.

[Bring4th_Austin]

perhaps cognitive dissonance theory would explain it.

People feel dissonance between the belief that they like animals and would never hurt them, and the behaviour of killing billions of animals. The way to resolve the dissonance w/o changing behav is to assert how much they enjoy the horror and plan to continue. The re-commitment to the behaviour is strengthened, and so their mind is able to more quickly resolve the dissonance. It suppresses the thoughts regarding the killing of animals & alleviates the anxiety. The reduction in anxiety reinforces the behaviour and people learn to just fantasize about bacon everytime a nearby vegetarian arouses awareness of the underlying conflict. By publicly committing to their behaviour, the mind is put under extra pressure to resolve the dissonance, in accord with the commonly understood social pressure effect where making a public social commitment can motivate people to stick with that commitment and making a public choice can motivate people to stick with that choice so that others do not look down on them for being wishy-washy.

This might be the case in some situations, but it seems to me that the biggest culprits in the "mmmm bacon!" expressions seem to be people who have no problem hurting/eating animals, and not the ones who are "wishy-washy." I agree with the cognitive dissonance idea, but the dissonance probably isn't always caused by their belief that they'd never hurt animals.

[Diana]

A few weeks ago, I saw a picture of a powerless, young, devastated chicken. One out of thousands in a place where they are "grown" to be killed.

I said damn - enough is enough... and stopped eating meat.
I only lasted for two weeks for the first try, though. I was not craving meat, not at all. But my simple and drastic change to my diet totally messed up my digestion, and I could not do anything about that.

I will approach this once again in the next months. I will not be forcing myself to totally abandon meat, but I never really forced it either. Any suggestions how to keep up a healthy digestion would be appreciated. Not the one where I run to the bathroom every few hours, and not the one where I have nothing on the "output side" for days : D

I agree with Pickle. Take it easy. It isn't balanced to shock the body.

First, maybe avoid fast food (if you eat it), anything ground (the worst meat is ground). Try to eat organic when you do eat meat (there will be less for the body to filter). Taking psyllium husk helps (a slippery fiber) as it pulls stuff out of the digestive tract.

Slowly eat less meat. One good way is to shift the focus of a meal. Instead of: let's have chicken for dinner, say, let's have brown rice, and the meat is a side item (maybe just pieces cut up in the rice).

Drink lots of good water.

[Monica]

I agree with all that's been said and would add that what's happening, Oldern, is your body is detoxifying. I want to reassure you that it's just temporary! Vegetarians don't spend all day in the bathroom! It really does balance out, though vegetarians tend to have less constipation (unless they eat a lot of dairy which can be constipating) which of course leads to better bowel health (hence the lower risk of colon cancer etc.). So this cleaning house is really a good thing.

But, you don't want to be uncomfortable, so you don't need to clean out all at once. I agree with Diana and Pickle: Start gradually so your body has time to adjust.

Also, rice and beans, eggs, tofu, cheese, etc. aren't likely to cause detox. That's coming from the fruits and veggies. A common myth is that vegetarians eat only salads and celery sticks. You might be overcompensating on the veggies. Suggestion: Try eating some 'heavier' vegetarian foods (like rice and beans) in place of the meat, instead of more salads. You might be overdoing the fiber.

Later, if you wish, as you adjust, you can gradually increase the fresh fruits and veggies, for better health, and you'll do fine with them.

Good luck! And you have a family of vegetarians here all ready and willing to help you, if you'd like some support and encouragement! Feel free to ask us for help (or recipes)!

[Ankh]

A few weeks ago, I saw a picture of a powerless, young, devastated chicken. One out of thousands in a place where they are "grown" to be killed.

I said damn - enough is enough... and stopped eating meat.
I only lasted for two weeks for the first try, though. I was not craving meat, not at all. But my simple and drastic change to my diet totally messed up my digestion, and I could not do anything about that.

I will approach this once again in the next months. I will not be forcing myself to totally abandon meat, but I never really forced it either. Any suggestions how to keep up a healthy digestion would be appreciated. Not the one where I run to the bathroom every few hours, and not the one where I have nothing on the "output side" for days : D

When you will (or will not) start this journey with the new diet, do not forget respect for the self.

The other portion of healing has to do with forgiveness of self and a greatly heightened respect for the self. This may conveniently be expressed by taking care in dietary matters.

40.14 Questioner: In dietary matters, what would be the foods that one would include and what would be the foods that one would exclude in a general way for the greatest care of one’s bodily complex?

Ra: I am Ra. Firstly, we underline and emphasize that this information is not to be understood literally but as a link or psychological nudge for the body and the mind and spirit. Thus it is the care and respect for the self that is the true thing of importance. In this light we may iterate the basic information given for this instrument’s diet. The vegetables, the fruits, the grains, and to the extent necessary for the individual metabolism, the animal products. These are those substances showing respect for the self.

[Monica]

Not the one where I run to the bathroom every few hours,

I just now caught this. For some reason, the first time I read it I thought you were running to the bathroom every few minutes or so.

Actually, 1 bowel movement per meal is optimal. It makes sense, if you think about it. What goes in, must come out. A properly functioning digestive system moves stuff through quickly and efficiently. It's meat and dairy that slow down the process, so people have erroneously concluded that 'once a day' is normal. It's not! Once a day means constipation. So if you're eating every few hours, and pooping every few hours, you're doing great!

---

The other portion of healing has to do with forgiveness of self and a greatly heightened respect for the self. This may conveniently be expressed by taking care in dietary matters.

I interpret this to mean that, as we forgive ourselves and respect ourselves, we naturally gravitate towards a healthier diet and lifestyle.

However, this quote is often used as a justification for eating meat and junk foods, with the mindset of "It doesn't matter what you eat as long as your forgive yourself afterwards."

NOT saying you are doing that, Ankh. I've seen that mentality expressed here before, with that exact quote backing it up, so I thought I'd mention it.

40.14 Questioner: In dietary matters, what would be the foods that one would include and what would be the foods that one would exclude in a general way for the greatest care of one’s bodily complex?

Ra: I am Ra. Firstly, we underline and emphasize that this information is not to be understood literally but as a link or psychological nudge for the body and the mind and spirit. Thus it is the care and respect for the self that is the true thing of importance. In this light we may iterate the basic information given for this instrument’s diet. The vegetables, the fruits, the grains, and to the extent necessary for the individual metabolism, the animal products. These are those substances showing respect for the self.

Taken in the context of this quote, for the greatest care of one's body, care and respect are of greatest importance.

However, that doesn't mean that care and respect for one's body is of greater importance than compassion.

One could care deeply about one's own body, while disregarding the suffering of animals. I don't think that's what Ra is advocating here.

Again, this isn't directed at you, Ankh. I'm just commenting on the quotes you posted.

[Ankh]

Again, this isn't directed at you, Ankh. I'm just commenting on the quotes you posted.

Are you picking a fight with me?? Just kidding!!

My quote was meant in this way: I see great advices from Pickle, Diana and you, for the one who wants to start a new journey in dietary matters. I wanted to add another advice to already given, great, advices, and that is to have respect for the self, as I saw this advice missing. It was an additional information.

I understand what you mean, and that it has been infected discussions before. I didn't mean to have any disputes, but to give an advice, which was, in my eyes, missing.

[Oldern]

Thank you all for your answers. The road seems to be easier to follow when you have a thread like this, I guess. : )

[Monica]

Are you picking a fight with me?? Just kidding!!

Oh gosh no! Which is exactly why I said my comments weren't directed at you.

My quote was meant in this way: I see great advices from Pickle, Diana and you, for the one who wants to start a new journey in dietary matters. I wanted to add another advice to already given, great, advices, and that is to have respect for the self, as I saw this advice missing. It was an additional information.

I understand what you mean, and that it has been infected discussions before. I didn't mean to have any disputes, but to give an advice, which was, in my eyes, missing.

I understand. I too was just adding another perspective.

[yossarian]

perhaps cognitive dissonance theory would explain it.

People feel dissonance between the belief that they like animals and would never hurt them, and the behaviour of killing billions of animals. The way to resolve the dissonance w/o changing behav is to assert how much they enjoy the horror and plan to continue. The re-commitment to the behaviour is strengthened, and so their mind is able to more quickly resolve the dissonance. It suppresses the thoughts regarding the killing of animals & alleviates the anxiety. The reduction in anxiety reinforces the behaviour and people learn to just fantasize about bacon everytime a nearby vegetarian arouses awareness of the underlying conflict. By publicly committing to their behaviour, the mind is put under extra pressure to resolve the dissonance, in accord with the commonly understood social pressure effect where making a public social commitment can motivate people to stick with that commitment and making a public choice can motivate people to stick with that choice so that others do not look down on them for being wishy-washy.

This might be the case in some situations, but it seems to me that the biggest culprits in the "mmmm bacon!" expressions seem to be people who have no problem hurting/eating animals, and not the ones who are "wishy-washy." I agree with the cognitive dissonance idea, but the dissonance probably isn't always caused by their belief that they'd never hurt animals.

This is not inline with psychodynamic theory.

Psychologists have shown that often people who appear the MOST commitment to some particular lifestyle are actually the most borderline, and their extreme commitment is an overreaction.

Someone who was not threatened at all by a vegetarian would not think of rubbing it in their face, their expression would be neutral, it would be like meeting someone with a different hair color.

The people with the emotional reactions are the ones who are going to make a strong response, and so my theory is that the people who have to engage in these defence mechanisms are actually people who hear the message of the vegetarian.

When it comes to rednecks and the like, these are generally people who really do love animals.

The other factor your have is how the eating of meat fits into a general macho identity. Many men these days feel insecure in their masculinity and so take on an overcompensatory macho identity. They make a point of pointing out how hard and badass they are, how they dont care about peoples feelings, how they love red meat, etc. But the guys who actually say this are just insecure people, while those truly comfortable in their masculinity feel no need to constnatly assert it (though it can still be observed behaviourally and emotionally of course)

I've often found that men who go to great lengths to present a macho image are very submissive and feminine in relationships, and generally mama's boys. They are compensating. In comparison, the men who are the most masculine by nature often try to cultivate more femininity--because harsh masculinity is not socially graceful and they suffer social consequences for their natural brutishness.

The most socially adept men these days are extremely feminine, while the most masculine men are complete loners who are feared and detested. Inline with this reality, it is the socially adept men who engage in image-oriented overcompensatory macho behaviour while the loners still engage in masculine behaviour but instead of that behaviour being compensatory it is a firm impulse that permeates all aspects of their life, not only finding expression in a few image-oriented aspects.

What I'm saying is that the people who say stuff like that to vegetarians are the people who feel bad about their own meat eating--these people are on the fence on some level. The people who feel no emotional reaction to the vegetarian message, on the other hand, will not engage in this childish behaviour but also have no chance of ever adopting vegetarianism.

[Oldern]

"The people who feel no emotional reaction to the vegetarian message, on the other hand, will not engage in this childish behaviour but also have no chance of ever adopting vegetarianism. "

This part is not true however, imho - it is more like they would not do it because of the social pressure.
Other things can still rub them in that direction, if they want that.

[BrownEye]

There are those that utilize process of elimination and end up vegetarian.

All it takes is rebooting the menu with a small variety of food. Adding another food and paying attention to how the body reacts. These people will find many things in their diet that make them feel like crap, and will logically move away from them. This is how a portion of raw foodists become raw foodists to begin with.

[Bring4th_Austin]

perhaps cognitive dissonance theory would explain it.

People feel dissonance between the belief that they like animals and would never hurt them, and the behaviour of killing billions of animals. The way to resolve the dissonance w/o changing behav is to assert how much they enjoy the horror and plan to continue. The re-commitment to the behaviour is strengthened, and so their mind is able to more quickly resolve the dissonance. It suppresses the thoughts regarding the killing of animals & alleviates the anxiety. The reduction in anxiety reinforces the behaviour and people learn to just fantasize about bacon everytime a nearby vegetarian arouses awareness of the underlying conflict. By publicly committing to their behaviour, the mind is put under extra pressure to resolve the dissonance, in accord with the commonly understood social pressure effect where making a public social commitment can motivate people to stick with that commitment and making a public choice can motivate people to stick with that choice so that others do not look down on them for being wishy-washy.

This might be the case in some situations, but it seems to me that the biggest culprits in the "mmmm bacon!" expressions seem to be people who have no problem hurting/eating animals, and not the ones who are "wishy-washy." I agree with the cognitive dissonance idea, but the dissonance probably isn't always caused by their belief that they'd never hurt animals.

This is not inline with psychodynamic theory.

Psychologists have shown that often people who appear the MOST commitment to some particular lifestyle are actually the most borderline, and their extreme commitment is an overreaction.

It just doesn't add up for me...and my life and occupation brings me into contact with people all across the spectrum. Trophy hunters, conventional farmers, people who don't really care about the conditions animals are raised in to produce meat...these are the people that tend to rub it in the faces of vegetarians. Contrarily, the people I see who do show care for animals are the least likely to confront a vegetarian in this way. Generally.

Someone who was not threatened at all by a vegetarian would not think of rubbing it in their face, their expression would be neutral, it would be like meeting someone with a different hair color.

The threat doesn't have to be from a suppressed sense of guilt. There are plenty of other reasons to feel threatened. Someone who feels an innate sense of judgement from a vegetarian isn't necessarily feeling the judgement because they themselves are guilty about eating meat (even though that is very possible). A lot of people care what anyone thinks about them in any context, and vegetarianism can easily be viewed by a non-vegetarian as a self-proclaimed superior point of view. Also, alternative lifestyles or just being different in any way can rouse emotion as well, it doesn't really matter what the context is.

The people with the emotional reactions are the ones who are going to make a strong response, and so my theory is that the people who have to engage in these defence mechanisms are actually people who hear the message of the vegetarian.

They may hear the message of the vegetarian but still disagree with it, and have emotional charge from some other distortion.

When it comes to rednecks and the like, these are generally people who really do love animals.

I'm sorry...I have to just disagree. I live in rural North Carolina, I'm assuming that the people you qualify as "redneck" are the same people I see every day...the conventional farmers, the trophy hunters...and while they may love their house dog, I simply do not sense any sort of expression of love for animals in general. It's a conscious decision to keep your dog chained up outside in the heat. It's a conscious decision to go hunting for the biggest buck (instead of for food). It's a conscious decision to raise pigs in gestation crates. It's a conscious decision to raise 10,000 chickens or turkeys in a single building, never seeing the light of day. What you are suggesting is that they exhibit/support this behavior, even though they "really do love animals?" We must have different definitions of love...

What I'm saying is that the people who say stuff like that to vegetarians are the people who feel bad about their own meat eating--these people are on the fence on some level. The people who feel no emotional reaction to the vegetarian message, on the other hand, will not engage in this childish behaviour but also have no chance of ever adopting vegetarianism.

I'm not saying it doesn't make up for some of the behavior, but I just do not see it as the main culprit for this behavior. If I view somebody who has no expression of compassion towards animals, I do not assume that they have compassion for animals. They may very easily feel threatened by the vegetarian for other reasons, which could easily play in to the other aspects you mentioned about masculinity within society...but not necessarily from guilt.

[3DMonkey]

The threat doesn't have to be from a suppressed sense of guilt. There are plenty of other reasons to feel threatened. Someone who feels an innate sense of judgement from a vegetarian isn't necessarily feeling the judgement because they themselves are guilty about eating meat (even though that is very possible). A lot of people care what anyone thinks about them in any context, and vegetarianism can easily be viewed by a non-vegetarian as a self-proclaimed superior point of view. Also, alternative lifestyles or just being different in any way can rouse emotion as well, it doesn't really matter what the context is.

Exactly!

[Monica]

When it comes to rednecks and the like, these are generally people who really do love animals.

I live in 'redneck' country and I think many of these people were traumatized when they were little, when they raised the calf for 4H and really loved it, but then later had to get 'macho' when it was sold for slaughter.

They have deep layers of armoring and aren't very in touch with their compassionate nature, in regards to animals. They may be very conflicted, because their lifestyle is so entrenched in the meat industry.

I have a nephew who seems like a really cool guy. He's a hunter and a bullfighter. This seems very incongruent to me, from what I know of him.

My brother, on the other hand (different brother, not the nephew's dad) is the epitome of the stereotypical 'redneck' and quite proud of it. He's one of those people who has said laughed at me, while bragging about his BBQ ribs or his steak. He's very bigoted towards humans and just generally a jerk. No incongruency there.

So I guess it can go either way.

What I'm saying is that the people who say stuff like that to vegetarians are the people who feel bad about their own meat eating--these people are on the fence on some level. The people who feel no emotional reaction to the vegetarian message, on the other hand, will not engage in this childish behaviour but also have no chance of ever adopting vegetarianism.

I think that's true in some cases. Sometimes really otherwise nice and considerate people engage in such tactless 'jokes' about vegetarians. I suspect it's either because they are just uncomfortable and feeling guilty, but unable to acknowledge it, OR they just really are bigots and simply taking advantage of an opportunity to ridicule someone who is different from them.

[Monica]

It just doesn't add up for me...and my life and occupation brings me into contact with people all across the spectrum. Trophy hunters, conventional farmers, people who don't really care about the conditions animals are raised in to produce meat...these are the people that tend to rub it in the faces of vegetarians. Contrarily, the people I see who do show care for animals are the least likely to confront a vegetarian in this way. Generally.

Maybe so. Those who care about animals are less likely to be rude to vegetarians because they're just all around nicer people.

Conversely, some otherwise very nice people might not care about animals. A lot of evangelical Christians I know, are in this category. It isn't because they aren't good, nice, compassionate people; it's because they've been taught that animals are 'things' and don't matter. It's a blind spot for them.

The threat doesn't have to be from a suppressed sense of guilt. There are plenty of other reasons to feel threatened. Someone who feels an innate sense of judgement from a vegetarian isn't necessarily feeling the judgement because they themselves are guilty about eating meat (even though that is very possible). A lot of people care what anyone thinks about them in any context, and vegetarianism can easily be viewed by a non-vegetarian as a self-proclaimed superior point of view. Also, alternative lifestyles or just being different in any way can rouse emotion as well, it doesn't really matter what the context is.

I actually agree with you here. I would add to that, that many people don't have any suppressed guilt, because they aren't even sensitive enough to have any registering of guilt at all.

They may hear the message of the vegetarian but still disagree with it, and have emotional charge from some other distortion.

Possibly. All of the theories presented may be true in some cases.

I live in rural North Carolina, I'm assuming that the people you qualify as "redneck" are the same people I see every day...the conventional farmers, the trophy hunters...

Here in Texas, the term redneck is used by non-rednecks in a derogatory way, to refer to narrow-minded, beer-drinking, pickup-truck-driving bigots, who usually aren't farmers at all.

and while they may love their house dog, I simply do not sense any sort of expression of love for animals in general. It's a conscious decision to keep your dog chained up outside in the heat. It's a conscious decision to go hunting for the biggest buck (instead of for food). It's a conscious decision to raise pigs in gestation crates. It's a conscious decision to raise 10,000 chickens or turkeys in a single building, never seeing the light of day.

I wonder whether it really is conscious, or if they just haven't even evolved to the point where they even consciously recognize the animals as beings who are suffering. These people might barely be beginning to recognize the suffering of other humans, and haven't yet gotten to the point of recognizing animals.

I really don't know...

[yossarian]

I agree with the trauma theory. My understanding of most humans is not that they don't have feelings but rather that they've engaged in suppression and repression out of social fears.

And yeah, any alternative lifestyle can also be threatening, but vegetarianism comes with moral condemnation, which Christians/rednecks take very seriously. But just being an alternative lifestyle is threatening enough.

Why would someone be attached to meat eating? Paradoxically, it's because it is so grotesque. To give up eating meat would be to admit they've been doing horrible things. This is cognitive dissonance at work.

[Monica]

Why would someone be attached to meat eating? Paradoxically, it's because it is so grotesque. To give up eating meat would be to admit they've been doing horrible things. This is cognitive dissonance at work.

Most definitely.

[3DMonkey]

Again, this isn't directed at you, Ankh. I'm just commenting on the quotes you posted.

Are you picking a fight with me?? Just kidding!!

My quote was meant in this way: I see great advices from Pickle, Diana and you, for the one who wants to start a new journey in dietary matters. I wanted to add another advice to already given, great, advices, and that is to have respect for the self, as I saw this advice missing. It was an additional information.

I understand what you mean, and that it has been infected discussions before. I didn't mean to have any disputes, but to give an advice, which was, in my eyes, missing.

5.2 ...
To begin to master the concept of mental discipline it is necessary to examine the self. The polarity of your dimension must be internalized. Where you find patience within your mind you must consciously find the corresponding impatience and vice versa. Each thought that a being has, has in its turn an antithesis. The disciplines of the mind involve, first of all, identifying both those things of which you approve and those things of which you disapprove within yourself, and then balancing each and every positive and negative charge with its equal. The mind contains all things. Therefore, you must discover this completeness within yourself.

The second mental discipline is acceptance of the completeness within your consciousness. It is not for a being of polarity in the physical consciousness to pick and choose among attributes, thus building the roles that cause blockages and confusions in the already-distorted mind complex. Each acceptance smoothes part of the many distortions that the faculty you call judgment engenders.

The third discipline of the mind is a repetition of the first but with the gaze outward towards the fellow entities that it meets. In each entity there exists completeness. Thus, the ability to understand each balance is necessary. When you view patience, you are responsible for mirroring in your mental understanding, patience/impatience. When you view impatience, it is necessary for your mental configuration of understanding to be impatience/patience. We use this as a simple example. Most configurations of mind have many facets, and understanding of either self polarities, or what you would call other-self polarities, can and must be understood as subtle work....

[Shemaya]

What do vegetarians feed their pets?