In regards to eating meat

[Oceania]

it's relevant in the sense that if they were suffering we'd want to alleviate that suffering. or turn to sungazing.

[3DMonkey]

sungazing and mineral baths.

( i wish)

The "creepy" microscopic photo album video I linked in the Time Thread really got me to thinking more about how our perspective on this subject is very relevant to our five senses.

[Monica]

Is a conclusive experiment necessary for us to know that plants, on some level, are aware of out intentions to eat them?

Also, is it even relevant?

It's relevant when people use unproven research about plants as a justification to eat animals.

As I've said multiple times in this thread, if someone feels that plants don't want to be eaten, despite all the overwhelming evidence that plants foster healing whereas meat contributes to disease, then the solution is simple: Eat fruits, nuts and seeds only.

But to attempt to justify eating animals, who we know feel pain and don't want to be eaten, because plants might feel pain and not want to be eaten, is illogical and ridiculous.

If someone wants to prove that plants don't want to be eaten either, then go for it. But they have no credibility if they are eating animals.

It's like saying, "I will pollute the planet with xyz chemical, which is the most polluting of all, because I think abc chemical might be polluting also."

It makes no sense.

[3DMonkey]

I think it makes perfect sense, myself. I'm dead serious.

[Phoenix]

Firstly, my personal experiences with having tried to have a vegetarian diet once when I was young and once when I was in my teens were unpleasant experiences. I eventually found out that there is a certain blood type that can't do without animal protein, and my understanding is, if some people need it then that removes the ethical imperative and all people should be able to eat meat.

I also knew a girl in my halls who tried to become a vegetarian for five years and her blood stream 'collapsed' and she now has to go into hospital and have it injected into her blood stream. This seems to me the fate that vegetarian zealots are trying to confine all type O blood groups to.

Oh and, this would seem relevant.

Questioner: In dietary matters, what would be the foods that one would include and what would be the foods that one would exclude in a general way for the greatest care of one’s bodily complex?

Ra: I am Ra. Firstly, we underline and emphasize that this information is not to be understood literally but as a link or psychological nudge for the body and the mind and spirit. Thus it is the care and respect for the self that is the true thing of importance. In this light we may iterate the basic information given for this instrument’s diet. The vegetables, the fruits, the grains, and to the extent necessary for the individual metabolism, the animal products. These are those substances showing respect for the self. In addition, though this has not been mentioned for this instrument is not in need of purification, those entities in need of purging the self of a poison thought-form or emotion complex do well to take care in following a program of careful fasting until the destructive thought-form has been purged analogously with the by-products of ridding the physical vehicle of excess material. Again you see the value not to the body complex but used as a link for the mind and spirit. Thus self reveals self to self.

[βαθμιαίος]

As I've said multiple times in this thread, if someone feels that plants don't want to be eaten, despite all the overwhelming evidence that plants foster healing whereas meat contributes to disease, then the solution is simple: Eat fruits, nuts and seeds only.

Presumably nuts and seeds don't want to be eaten, either. They are alive, too, and, one would think, desire to be planted and to grow into whatever they are the seeds of.

Fruits should be OK, though, from this point of view, as long as eating them doesn't harm their seeds.

What about dairy products and non-fertile eggs? Have those been addressed in this thread? They don't require killing animals.

[Monica]

Firstly, my personal experiences with having tried to have a vegetarian diet once when I was young and once when I was in my teens were unpleasant experiences.

Yeah, I can relate. My years of eating meat were unpleasant experiences too.

I eventually found out that there is a certain blood type that can't do without animal protein,

I know a lot of people who justify eating animals because of that blood type book, but actually, that's an unproven theory.

It is true that some people have more trouble than others when transitioning to a plant-based diet. There are ways to resolve this, that have been extensively outlined in this thread.

By the way, eggs and dairy products are animal protein, and nothing died. Be sure to get free-range eggs and humanely produced dairy, though, as there is just as much cruelty in the egg/dairy industry as in the meat industry.

and my understanding is, if some people need it then that removes the ethical imperative

That's a very big IF. It's all based on a particular book, which, as I said, is theoretical.

Dr. Gabriel Cousins is one of the leading experts on the vegetarian diet. He readily acknowledges that about 40% of people who attempt to go vegan have cravings for meat. He offers clear solutions to this and has had nearly 100% success with people who thought they 'needed' meat. They didn't. They just needed better guidelines on how to adjust their vegetarian diet.

and all people should be able to eat meat.

Even if it were true that people with blood type O 'need' to eat animals (which has never been proven but is only a theory), then how does it follow that "all" people "should be able to eat meat"?

I also knew a girl in my halls who tried to become a vegetarian for five years and her blood stream 'collapsed' and she now has to go into hospital and have it injected into her blood stream.

Horrors!

I knew a woman who ate meat for many years, and got cancer.

Come to think of it, I actually know lots of people who ate meat for many years and got cancer.

I knew a man who ate meat for many years, and died of a heart attack.

Come to think of it, I actually know lots of people who ate meat for many years and died from a heart attack.

I knew a man who ate meat for many years, and suffered with diabetes.

Come to think of it, I actually know lots of people who ate meat for many years and got diabetes.

I knew a man who ate meat for many years, and suffered with ___________.

Come to think of it, I actually know lots of people who ate meat for many years and got ___________.

[Phoenix]

Wow that was quick Monica.

---

Well, firstly, if it's my experience, then I think it is more likely true than the theory of someone with an agenda, secondly, Carla Rueckert has also put forward this view. Thirdly, that last point you made was didn't make much sense to me because diabetes, cancer etc. can be due to almost anything.

[Monica]

Presumably nuts and seeds don't want to be eaten, either. They are alive, too, and, one would think, desire to be planted and to grow into whatever they are the seeds of.

I recommend reading The Botany of Desire for an interesting view on this.

Fruits should be OK, though, from this point of view, as long as eating them doesn't harm their seeds.

We should all be Breatharians. That's the only way out of this conundrum.

What about dairy products and non-fertile eggs? Have those been addressed in this thread? They don't require killing animals.

Every possible sub-topic has been addressed, extensively and ad nauseum, in this thread!

---

Wow that was quick Monica.

Just happen to be online!

Well, firstly, if it's my experience, then I think it is more likely true than the theory of someone with an agenda,

It's not my place to judge your experience. We all form our views based on our own experiences. I am simply offering some ideas for your consideration: specifically, that there could be other causes for your experience, and that there might be solutions other than eating animals.

secondly, Carla Rueckert has also put forward this view.

I have immense respect for Carla, but Carla would be the first to say that she doesn't wish to be in a position of authority or have any sort of guru status.

Thirdly, that last point you made was didn't make much sense to me because diabetes, cancer etc. can be due to almost anything.

My point was that, the logic of "This person was a vegetarian and got sick, therefore being a vegetarian isn't healthy" is faulty because the vast majority of the population eats meat and they are very, very sick, so it could just as easily be argued "Most people who eat meat have some sort of illness, therefore eating meat isn't healthy."

In addition, it has been statistically proven that risk of nearly all the major diseases increases with meat intake. There is a direct correlation between meat-eating and disease. The more meat eaten, the higher the risk. This is across the board, after other risk factors have been accounted for.

[βαθμιαίος]

I recommend reading The Botany of Desire for an interesting view on this.

Can you summarize or give a little more information about the view that is presented there?

We should all be Breatharians. That's the only way out of this conundrum.

Or accept what's implied by this Ra quote: "All things in manifestation may be seen in one way or another to be offering themselves in order that transformations may take place upon the level appropriate to the action."

Every possible sub-topic has been addressed, extensively and ad nauseum, in this thread!

That doesn't surprise me!

[Monica]

Oh and, this would seem relevant.

Questioner: In dietary matters, what would be the foods that one would include and what would be the foods that one would exclude in a general way for the greatest care of one’s bodily complex?

Ra: I am Ra. Firstly, we underline and emphasize that this information is not to be understood literally but as a link or psychological nudge for the body and the mind and spirit. Thus it is the care and respect for the self that is the true thing of importance. In this light we may iterate the basic information given for this instrument’s diet. The vegetables, the fruits, the grains, and to the extent necessary for the individual metabolism, the animal products. These are those substances showing respect for the self. In addition, though this has not been mentioned for this instrument is not in need of purification, those entities in need of purging the self of a poison thought-form or emotion complex do well to take care in following a program of careful fasting until the destructive thought-form has been purged analogously with the by-products of ridding the physical vehicle of excess material. Again you see the value not to the body complex but used as a link for the mind and spirit. Thus self reveals self to self.

This quote has been extensively dissected and discussed in this thread. I invite anyone who hasn't read the entire thread, to do so. It contains a wealth of info, from conflicting viewpoints.

For now I will just say that animal products can mean eggs and dairy. It doesn't necessarily mean dead animals.

And, I will add to my previous analysis of this quote earlier in the thread: To the extent necessary. Can most meat-eaters honestly say, in good conscience, that they eat only the bare minimum of animal products that is absolutely necessary? Have they exhausted all other possible ways to maintain good health? Have they tried Dr. Cousens' solution for being vegetarian?

Or are they eating as much meat as they want to?

Even IF Ra is saying eating meat is ok, and that's a very big IF because Ra is very selective about choice of words, and it's significant that the carefully worded animal products was chosen instead of meat...but even if Ra is saying some people might need meat because of their metabolism, Ra very clearly said to the extent necessary.

That means, if it isn't absolutely necessary, don't do it.

Can every meat-eater honestly say it's absolutely necessary? And are they eating only the barest minimum that is necessary?

It has been proven that a vegetarian diet is adequate for the human body. Not only that, but vegetarians have much less risk for nearly every disease.

Even so, some people do indeed crave meat. Why? Because their bodies are in transition. Also because foods don't have the nutrients they're supposed to, because of chemical farming methods.

But there are solutions to this: superfoods. As explained by Dr. Gabriel Cousens, they fill in the gap.

Not only that, but aren't we supposed to be evolving? Metabolism can change.

[BrownEye]

I also knew a girl in my halls who tried to become a vegetarian for five years and her blood stream 'collapsed' and she now has to go into hospital and have it injected into her blood stream. This seems to me the fate that vegetarian zealots are trying to confine all type O blood groups to.

My wife has been vegetarian for over 30 years. During our incident with the NICU we found that her breast milk was waaay more nutrient dense than the average eater. I would even venture to say higher density than many vegetarians, simply a result of a difference in knowledge of nutrients. We actually fought the doctors, their standards, and won, while proving them wrong in the process.

You can live on fruit loops and be considered a vegan. Vegan/vegetarian is not synonymous with knowledge/understanding how/what to eat.

I am a type O blood type. I switched my diet as a result of health problems, which for some odd reason have all vanished.

I understand that the majority have no interest in evolution.

[Monica]

Can you summarize or give a little more information about the view that is presented there?

The Botany of Desire: A Plant's-Eye View of the World by Michael Pollan

Every schoolchild learns about the mutually beneficial dance of honeybees and flowers: The bee collects nectar and pollen to make honey and, in the process, spreads the flowers’ genes far and wide. In The Botany of Desire, Michael Pollan ingeniously demonstrates how people and domesticated plants have formed a similarly reciprocal relationship. He masterfully links four fundamental human desires—sweetness, beauty, intoxication, and control—with the plants that satisfy them: the apple, the tulip, marijuana, and the potato. In telling the stories of four familiar species, Pollan illustrates how the plants have evolved to satisfy humankind’s most basic yearnings. And just as we’ve benefited from these plants, we have also done well by them. So who is really domesticating whom?

Working in his garden one day, Michael Pollan hit pay dirt in the form of an idea: do plants, he wondered, use humans as much as we use them? While the question is not entirely original, the way Pollan examines this complex coevolution by looking at the natural world from the perspective of plants is unique. The result is a fascinating and engaging look at the true nature of domestication.

Erudite, engaging and highly original, journalist Pollan's fascinating account of four everyday plants and their coevolution with human society challenges traditional views about humans and nature. Using the histories of apples, tulips, potatoes and cannabis to illustrate the complex, reciprocal relationship between humans and the natural world, he shows how these species have successfully exploited human desires to flourish.

I found the book very intriguing and mind-expanding, as well as fun to read.

Or accept what's implied by this Ra quote: "All things in manifestation may be seen in one way or another to be offering themselves in order that transformations may take place upon the level appropriate to the action."

You know I was kidding about being Breatharian, right?

Key word here being transformations. As I've stated in this thread, we know that in 5D we will consume only a nectar. How can anyone expect to go from eating hamburgers to consuming a nectar?

Transformation.

We must transform. That doesn't happen instantly. I strongly disagree with the idea expressed in this thread that it's ok to eat whatever we lust for, including 'food' produced with obvious cruelty, because we're all gonna go poof into 4D anyway and then we "won't want that stuff anymore."

If we know the goal is to eventually consume only nectar, and beyond that energy itself, then it makes sense that we have to start somewhere. Some primitive humans ate other humans. But I haven't heard of many cannibals in modern society. We no longer eat other humans.

To quit eating animals is the next logical step.

Plants? People are arguing about plants when they're still eating animals? That's like arguing about eating animals, when they're still eating humans.

We need to start someplace...and transform. It's an evolutionary process.

---

My wife has been vegetarian for over 30 years. During our incident with the NICU we found that her breast milk was waaay more nutrient dense than the average eater. I would even venture to say higher density than many vegetarians, simply a result of a difference in knowledge of nutrients. We actually fought the doctors, their standards, and won, while proving them wrong in the process.

Cool!

You can live on fruit loops and be considered a vegan. Vegan/vegetarian is not synonymous with knowledge/understanding how/what to eat.

Exactly! There are 'vegetarians' who eat junk food, or even smoke cigarettes.

I am a type O blood type. I switched my diet as a result of health problems, which for some odd reason have all vanished.

So you are living proof that type O's can thrive on a veg diet!

My husband is type O also. He was 95% vegetarian (fish once a week) for 25+ years, and has now been 100% vegetarian, vegan actually, for the past year. He feels better than ever!

But we do a lot of juicing, and we consume some superfoods like bluegreen algae. And we are moving towards high raw. Not because he's type O - I really think that whole blood type thing is bogus - but because the foods are so depleted it's a good idea to do a lot of juicing, sprouting and superfoods, regardless of blood type.

If there is concern about meat cravings, presumably due to blood type, then superfoods solve that problem.

This totally blows away any question about the adequacy of a raw vegan diet:

http://www.markusrothkranz.com/muscledvd...ledvd.html

(when done properly of course)

I understand that the majority have no interest in evolution.

Obviously B4 members have an interest in evolution. But the whole meat issue seems to be a blind spot.

[Oceania]

gross. why do guys think it's hot to look that buff.

[Namaste]

I am a type O blood type. I switched my diet as a result of health problems, which for some odd reason have all vanished.

Care to share some info on your diet, an average day perhaps? :¬)

Monica, a quick question if you don't mind - bar fibre, what are the other benefits of wholegrain? I eat wholegrain bread almost daily and have been wondering if it's too much or not.

[Monica]

Monica, a quick question if you don't mind - bar fibre, what are the other benefits of wholegrain? I eat wholegrain bread almost daily and have been wondering if it's too much or not.

Whole grain breads are definitely healthier than refined flour breads, because they still have the nutrients intact. Refined flour is devoid of nutrients, and it also tends to clog the colon.

There is some controversy on grains, however. In recent years, it has become trendy for some alternative health practitioners to say grains are 'bad' while promoting a return to heavy meat and animal fats.

I haven't been able to figure out their rationale. I reject that premise and think it's a very dangerous trend.

One of the arguments against eating wheat is that some people can't handle the gluten. There are ways to find out if one is gluten intolerant, but you'd probably know it if you were. Those who think grains are bad, say that everyone is gluten intolerant to some degree but just don't know it. They claim that if people eliminated grains, they'd feel a difference.

I'm not convinced those claims are true. If they are, I would speculate that it's probably because of the generations of pesticides used in the grains, and the GMO, rather than the gluten.

In any case, there is a huge difference between grain made into flour and kept on a shelf for weeks or months (the germ goes rancid) and freshly milled grain flour (nutrients of the germ intact). Then, if you take it a step further and actually sprout the grain instead of grinding it into flour, it ceases to be considered a grain and is now considered more like a vegetable. Its nutrients are multiplied many fold, and there are no longer any issues about gluten or any of that stuff.

So sprouted grains are always excellent. Everything I'm saying here is really about grains made into flour, which is a complex subject and very controversial.

Whole grains should have wholesome goodness.

However, what people are currently eating aren't actually natural whole grains. Wheat and corn have been so over cultivated and so heavily sprayed with chemicals, that the toxic chemicals have become part of their genetic makeup. So even if you buy organic, you might not be able to escape the effects of those toxins.

Then there's genetic modification (GMO). I recently read some stuff on corn that made my skin crawl! Corn is a mere shadow of its former self. Same with wheat.

In short, the grains called wheat and corn aren't really wheat and corn!

I disagree with the idea that humans should completely eliminate grains. Certainly, cooked whole grains like brown rice, quinoa, amaranth, etc. are wholesome and healthy.

Flour products, not so much. Sprouted grains are always better. When I do eat corn, I try to get the blue corn, which hasn't been genetically modified (as far as I know). I recently bought some seeds for some heirloom corn varieties like Aztec Blue, Purple corn, etc. I want to do my part to preserve those plants before they totally get wiped out by Monsanto.

Another problem with wheat and corn is that they are so insidious. Think about what most people eat every day: donuts, cereal, hamburgers, sandwiches, pastries, etc. All contain wheat. And anything with sugar - which is virtually all the foods on the SAD diet - will have high fructose corn syrup. Eating too much of the same 2 foods brings its own set of problems. Then on top of that, they are refined, and on top of that, have pesticides, and on top of that, are now GMO.

The solution is to buy organic as much as possible, have more variety in the diet, and eat your grains sprouted as much as possible, to increase nutrients and decrease any issues you may have. You'd be amazed at the wonderful raw sprouted brains and crackers you can make! It does take some work though. So much easier to just buy chips or a loaf of bread! When I get busy, I tend to eat more grains than I should.

It's not that grains/breads are bad. It's that people depend on them too much because they're easy and convenient.

Getting back to bread, there is also the issue of the yeast. Some people with systemic candida have sensitivity to yeasted breads. Again, if you did have trouble with that, you'd probably know it.

To summarize: I personally wouldn't worry about a couple of slices of wholegrain bread as part of a healthy diet, unless you have reason to believe you have sensitivity to gluten or yeast.

If that's the case, then you might look into some of the sprouted breads.

Hope this helps!

[3DMonkey]

I've always loved sprouted grain breads. Too expensive.

[Namaste]

Very much appreciated - thank you. It is part of a healthy diet so I'm happy to continue.

I've been muscle tested for the organic wholegrain bread I eat, my body is fully capable of dealing with it. A friend of mine is a clinical ecologist, and combined with muscle testing, it's a fantastic means to tailor your diet with things the body can digest.

Although I was quite unhappy to find my body didn't like raisin and cinnamon bagels. I love those things toasted! Mmmmm. Eating wholegrain bagels now, which test OK ;¬)

I'll look out for sprouted grain breads, they sound rather nice. Thanks again :¬)

[Oceania]

buy a blender and grow your own fruit and veggies, then make superfood smoothies. i don't have a blender so i'm eating innocent smoothies but it's not organic.

[3DMonkey]

LOL.

FIRST, buy a blender
NEXT, plant a plum tree.
Wait 3 years.
Enjoy.

[Oceania]

yes

[Meerie]

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[BrownEye]

I am a type O blood type. I switched my diet as a result of health problems, which for some odd reason have all vanished.

Care to share some info on your diet, an average day perhaps? :¬)

Monica, a quick question if you don't mind - bar fibre, what are the other benefits of wholegrain? I eat wholegrain bread almost daily and have been wondering if it's too much or not.

I put a full bundle of kale in a blender with frozen bananas, cacao, maca, chlorella or spirulina, sometimes dandelion, almonds, other seeds or nuts. Just depends on what I have.

Maca tends to be the only thing that comes up as safe heated. In my smoothie goods that is.

The muscle tests may show a tolerance on one day, and not the next. One thing that will always boost you is chia seeds.

[Monica]

Very much appreciated - thank you. It is part of a healthy diet so I'm happy to continue.

You are quite welcome.

I've been muscle tested for the organic wholegrain bread I eat, my body is fully capable of dealing with it.

Sounds like you're doing great! I wouldn't worry about it then.

The reason I gave a rather lengthy answer is that the subject of breads/grains is rather complex and controversial. It's kinda ridiculous, really. Whole foods. Should be easy. But all those other factors have complicated what should be a no-brainer.

A friend of mine is a clinical ecologist, and combined with muscle testing, it's a fantastic means to tailor your diet with things the body can digest.

Although I was quite unhappy to find my body didn't like raisin and cinnamon bagels. I love those things toasted! Mmmmm. Eating wholegrain bagels now, which test OK ;¬)

Yeah, I tested fine on an organic whole wheat bread we get at Whole Foods Market, but tested negative on their multi-grain version. I have no idea what was in that multi-grain that my body didn't like. I tried it several times and got a consistent No on it.

I don't take muscle testing as absolute, but it can help provide confirmation when trying to figure this stuff out. If the muscle testing says No, I usually avoid it. But if the muscle testing says Yes, I still might not do well with it. That's been my experience anyway.

I'll look out for sprouted grain breads, they sound rather nice.

Ezekiel and Manna are a couple of brands you can find in the frozen section. They are coarser, heartier, and chewier than regular ww breads. I recommend getting the regular ones and avoiding the 'no salt' version as it tastes awful. Amazing what a difference a little salt makes! Manna has some delicious fruit-and-nut flavors - yum!

Thanks again :¬)

[AnthroHeart]

Monica, which muscle testing method do you find the most accurate and easiest?

[Monica]

I put a full bundle of kale in a blender with frozen bananas, cacao, maca, chlorella or spirulina, sometimes dandelion, almonds, other seeds or nuts. Just depends on what I have.

Green smoothies are power-packed and yummy! I usually make mine with milder greens like lettuce or spinach, + coconut water + pear, banana, + whatever fresh or frozen fruit I have on hand. Oh and blueberries. Must have blueberries!

I usually juice my kale and drink a shot of it. Intense! Then I do my carrots, cucumbers, more greens, etc.

I'm not totally raw like Pickle though, at least not yet. I'm working on it! I'm finding myself less and less interested in even delicious vegan foods, and more interested in raw foods. I'm kinda flowing with it at this point. I just feel so much better, so much lighter, when I eat raw!

And green juice is such an energizer!

Maca tends to be the only thing that comes up as safe heated. In my smoothie goods that is.

Hmmm...interesting.

The muscle tests may show a tolerance on one day, and not the next. One thing that will always boost you is chia seeds.

Do you muscle test every day? I rarely do. Just when I have a problem I'm trying to figure out.

I just got a large shipment of chia seeds and I plan to make some chia pudding! They're great to add to the smoothies too.

I'm doing a lot of savory veggies stews. Some days, the only cooked food I have is a baked potato I add to the stews. I'm not planning to give that up any time soon.

---

Monica, which muscle testing method do you find the most accurate and easiest?

I'm not really an expert on it. I've gotten too many mixed results. Pickle or Namaste can probably answer better than I can.

[BrownEye]

I don't muscle test at all since with foods it only applies to that moment in time.

[Oceania]

how well does maca preserve? organic maca in a plastic bag that is or is not sealed inside a suitcase?

[Monica]

I planted some maca plants in the garden but they never came up.

[Oceania]

what! i thought they were easy to grow.